New dog growled at toddler- help

[indigomama]

This is going to be quick, but I posted before about getting a dog for my son. We had some trouble finding a dog, but last Saturday we went out to meet a breeder who was rehoming some of her older pups, as she wanted to really reduce her breeding program. 

 

They are mini australian shepherds, though the one we picked is regular sized, about 35 pounds. Anyway, we met a few of her dogs, spent a couple hours out there, (this was after lots of emailing and discussing our home life), and we settled on a great dog. He is 9 months, while there he was pretty mellow, a snuggler,  did well with everyone, and since we've gotten him home he has been wonderful, except....

 

Tuesday he growled, at our 3 year old, we had her back up thinking maybe she got in his space, he was laying down resting. We talked to all our kids about the right and wrong way to approach him, how to give him his space and read his cues. They have never been alone with him. He is either one leash, held by DH or I, or in a gated room with us. 

 

Today, he was in the kitchen with my DH, when the girls 2 and 3yo, got up they came to the kitchen to say hello to DH. The dog growled again.  Dh went to the girls picked them up, set them at the table in the kitchen and had them throw down the dogs breakfast to him. It is not prolonged growling, just a quick growl, it is only ever been directed at the little girls. He's great with the three boys ages 5,7,9. 

 

Should I be concerned? Please say we can work through this. He really is a great  dog otherwise, good with other animals and people.  We've just spent a lot of money, getting him neutered, UTD on shots, kennel, toys, etc.  I have contacted a trainer, only one in my entire area. Need some quick tips, though.

 

[Laurie4b]

I would not allow a situation in which your children could get near him until you've worked with the trainer.

 

Our English shepherd did growl at my 2 year old and we were able to work that out with a trainer, but the trainer wasn't sure at first. However, like I said, until you start to work with the trainer, don't allow the possibility for them to come in contact. A bite in the face is something that can't be taken back.

 

I can't remember what all we did because it was 15 years ago and training standards may have progressed since then anyway, but it sounds to me like what you are doing is rewarding the dog for growling (he gets space and food.---Some dog people can correct me and I'm sure will.) If my dog growled at a little kid now, I'd say a firm NO, put her in a crate or out in the garage, etc. immediately--so she doesn't have to contend with the kid, she is safe, but she is the one whose movement is restricted. I'd want her to associate my displeasure with the aggression. And if it's just a warning only, but the dog is really uncomfortable with kids in her space, it's the wrong match for your family.

 

I believe what we did was train her to associate the little ones with positive things and to train her to allow the little ones to do things little ones do with dogs (like lie on top of her, etc by giving her treats while they were doing stuff like that and we were between her mouth and the kid.) Some people may say that kids shouldn't do this, but I personally don't think it's safe to have a dog in the home that won't tolerate typical little kid behavior.

[Pawz4me]

I would be concerned.

 

My guess is that you can work through it if you're committed to a LOT of management and working with a trainer.  It's very, very good that you've already contacted one!  Yay for you!

 

Keep in mind that internet advice is as good as what you pay for it. ;)  Even those of us who really know dogs can't offer a truly accurate opinion w/o actually seeing the dog in person.  Nobody can.  Having said that, most growling is associated with some kind of resource guarding.  The resource can be space, food, an object (toy or bed) or a person.  The "cure" is generally to convince the dog that you and the other humans in the house own everything and therefore the dog owns nothing to guard.  It's your food, your space, your toy and he's only allowed access to them because you say so. 

 

Keep the girls separate from the dog until you get an in-person evaluation.  In the meantime, you can Google "Nothing In Life Is Free" and start implementing it.

 

Bottom line is that you have an adolescent (teenaged) dog.  He's new to your home, which is a very stressful situation for him.  He's probably never been around kids before, which is also stressful.  He's a herding breed, which I personally do not consider to be a very good choice for homes with young children simply because of the herding instinct and the tendency to nip when they herd.  So even with an ideal specimen of the breed you've got your work cut out for you.  You're probably looking at at least one (and more likely two or more) years of very close management.  But it likely can be done if you and your DH are committed.

[indigomama]

We did tell him a firm "NO", and he stopped. I'm sorry if it was confusing but the treats, came later, not as a reward, but later just as a way for him to see that she brings good things. She did not hand feed them, just tossed them on the grown, after we had him sit. 

 

 

[indigomama]

I would be concerned.

 

My guess is that you can work through it if you're committed to a LOT of management and working with a trainer.  It's very, very good that you've already contacted one!  Yay for you!

 

Keep in mind that internet advice is as good as what you pay for it. ;)  Even those of us who really know dogs can't offer a truly accurate opinion w/o actually seeing the dog in person.  Nobody can.  Having said that, most growling is associated with some kind of resource guarding.  The resource can be space, food, an object (toy or bed) or a person.  The "cure" is generally to convince the dog that you and the other humans in the house own everything and therefore the dog owns nothing to guard.  It's your food, your space, your toy and he's only allowed access to them because you say so. 

 

Keep the girls separate from the dog until you get an in-person evaluation.  In the meantime, you can Google "Nothing In Life Is Free" and start implementing it.

 

Bottom line is that you have an adolescent (teenaged) dog.  He's new to your home, which is a very stressful situation for him.  He's probably never been around kids before, which is also stressful.  He's a herding breed, which I personally do not consider to be a very good choice for homes with young children simply because of the herding instinct and the tendency to nip when they herd.  So even with an ideal specimen of the breed you've got your work cut out for you.  You're probably looking at at least one (and more likely two or more) years of very close management.  But it likely can be done if you and your DH are committed.

 

 

Waiting to hear back from the trainer. I don't know much about her, she is the only one available in like a 2 hour radius, live in the boonies. We were told he's been around grandkids, but not living in a house situation, he lived in an outdoor barn/kennel. We're able to walk him, run around with him, but I haven't noticed any real hard herding instincts. He's really mellow in the house.

 

If this can't work, I will seriously feel like completely giving up. I feel like there is no dog for a family with kids.  He is really fantastic. Very intelligent and good with everyone else, and already really attached to me. 

 

Obviously, my kids come first, but ugh!

[Night Elf]

I just googled and found the website for the Australian Shepherd Club of America and it says that these dogs are great with kids. So I think talking to a trainer is definitely a good idea. I guess just keep your daughters away for now. If you want them to play, you get to the dog first and then call them over. I'm not sure. I'm not a dog trainer so i'm just guessing what I might do. I hope it resolves quickly. I'm sure it's scary.

[JustEm]

If it is only directed at the little ones my first guess is she is trying to show dominance over them.  She is a herding dog and has the instinct to herd the little ones.  I would be concerned mainly because they are too little to understand cues and therefore they can not give her space when she is telling them she needs it.  I have a Welsh Corgi who growls at my kids but I am well aware of dog cues and know that her growl is not a cue that she is going to bite soon.  It is a growl saying "this is my area, you may play here but this is mine."  When she does it I remove her from the room to show her that its not her area.  That has helped a lot with the growling.  The only time it happens now is if they try to touch her while she is sleeping (which is only my 12 month old because he doesn't know any better yet.)

 

Your best bet is to immediately remove her from the room the second it happens.  If you have a crate put her in that and only let her out once the little ones have spent some time in the room so she can see they belong there over her.   Start that now while you wait to hear from a trainer.  But certainly contact a trainer now, it will be easier to deal with now rather than later.

[Liz CA]

We used to have an Aussie Shepherd. I agree in principle with Pawz4me's post. I would add that I would take a moment when the dog has a full belly, is relaxed and happy and approach him with the girls. Slowly, talking softly and reassuringly and then have everyone pet him. You need to stay there and be extremely alert to dog's body language. The unfortunate thing is, if the girls are now afraid of him, he may be able to sense it.

 

It is important to remember that you just got him and he is stressed. When I adopted my current mastiff, he had just come from a highly stressful situation and it took me about a week to calm him down. I did with the same approach described above. In the evening, when he was on his bed, I'd go over and talk to him and softly touch him all over. He quickly became used to me and calmed down. We also began indoor training right away with lots of "Atta boy," positive reinforcement and a treat now and then.

[indigomama]

Thank you everyone! It doesn't seem threatening to me, but I recognize it is a warning. So, I am keeping the littles and the dog in my site and reach or in separate areas at all times.  There has not been anymore, yet. I have also been attending to the kids before him, and helping them be calmer in the house, which isn't a bad thing:) And yes he seems to like the older three. 

 

Talked to trainer, she is coming this afternoon. 

 

Any other insights would be great. 

[Liz CA]

 And yes he seems to like the older three. 

 

Talked to trainer, she is coming this afternoon. 

 

Any other insights would be great. 

 

Toddlers often have "jerky" movements because fine motor skills are not developed yet, or talk louder perhaps. This may scare him if he is not used to little ones. I used to take my young son's hand and guide it over the dog, so my ds could feel how softly and carefully I wanted him to touch the dog. 

I think this can be remedied. Let us know what your trainer is suggesting!

 

[VaKim]

Toddlers are also right down in the dog's face, which many dogs don't seem to like. I would not approach the dog with the girls. I would, instead, sit down with the girls on my lap or next to me, preferably up on a chair or couch, possibly with treats, and call the dog over to us and see if you all can pet him or whatever. Just an idea until you talk to your trainer. 

[indigomama]

Toddlers are also right down in the dog's face, which many dogs don't seem to like. I would not approach the dog with the girls. I would, instead, sit down with the girls on my lap or next to me, preferably up on a chair or couch, possibly with treats, and call the dog over to us and see if you all can pet him or whatever. Just an idea until you talk to your trainer. 

 

Thanks, the growls have only happened the two times mentioned above, otherwise he has let them pet him and he has gone up and licked them and then walked away. But I am always right there.

[Truscifi]

We have a British Staffordshire terrier, so not a herding dog, but we had a similar issue of a warning growl when my little guy started walking and climbing around the same time and was suddenly able to follow the dog where ever she went. We immediately told her no and put her in her kennel. We also work with him on how to properly touch her. And we let her sit under his high chair during meals, which has made him her favorite person EVER (I know, not everyone will think this is a good idea, but she is trained to wait even if food falls on the floor until we say if she can have it - or not, depending on what it is).

[Kipling]

I suspect it was stress to the new environment and establishing pecking order, as others have suggested. 

We got a dog from the shelter a few months ago.  He was a 6-7 month old lab mix.  On the first night, dh had to take the kids out of the house, so the dog bonded with me.  The next day, I was on the floor, and the dog was in my lap.  My 4 year old came up to me and the dog growled at her.  We suspect because he was claiming his territory.  I told him no, pushed him away, and had the 4 year old sit in my lap.  The next time he sat in my lap, I had the four year old come up and sit in my lap too.  We watched him very carefully after that, but he never did it again.  Interestingly, he bonded first with me, then my dh, then my oldest child.  It took him the longest to warm up to the other two; I suspect because they were closer to his level and he didn't see them as dominant.  We had them give him his dinner and feed him from their hands as a way to bond them.   He has become a GREAT dog with the kids.  They are constantly laying on him, climbing on him, you name it, and he soaks up the attention.  My guess is that it's a similar situation with your new dog as well and that with training, he can become a good family dog.

[Berta]

Definitely sounds like a dominance thing. I have a pit bull mixed (75% Pit, 25% Rhodesian Ridgeback). When he was a pup I caught him going through the garbage and he growled at me. My first thought was to back up but instead I went towards him telling him NO, and then  put him on a leash and made him obey me. It worked. He never again showed his teeth and has been an awesome dog.

 

It was explained to me that this is their pack mentality. He was trying to establish himself as the pack leader. I had to show him that I am the pack leader in this house.

[Tammyla]

I hope it can be worked out, but I would be very cautious with the littles.

[Pawz4me]

Resource guarding is NOT dominance.  Dominance/pack theory is a hugely misunderstood concept by about 95 percent of people.  Mainly because the sources they're getting their information from rely on wolf studies that have long been discredited by reputable researcher and canine behaviorists.

 

In thinking more about the situations the OP describes, I'm not so sure that it couldn't be fear aggression instead of resource aggression.  The dog is new to the home, new to living in a home, probably new to toddlers/very young kids.  Certainly new to them in an enclosed space.  (FWIW, being around "kids" isn't necessarily the same thing as being around toddlers/preschoolers.  There's a huge difference in the way kids in different age groups act, differences in the way they move and in the loudness/shrillness of their speech.  Those things matter to dogs.)  I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the dog is simply scared.  And that's maybe the best case scenario.  Because I'm guessing with just a little bit of time to get used to the little ones the fear would go away.  Even betting on that, though, you'll need to do a lot of management in the meanwhile.

[Slache]

I worked with dogs for 4 years and quickly established a list of about 10 breeds that inherently bite, and would never own. Aussies are on that list. I would never get one for fear of it causing serious harm to my children.

 

But, there are exceptions to every rule, and your dog might be one. If I were in your position I would kennel train him(teach him to sleep in a kennel), and teach the kids not to touch him when he's in there. This gives him his own personal space to be alone. If feeding become an issue, you can feed him in the kennel as well.

 

Also, run him every day. You own a working dog, and your not working him (I assume). Imagine drinking 15 cups of coffee and being locked in a closet. You would probably growl too.

 

 

[indigomama]

I appreciate hearing everyone's perspective. 

The trainer came out, and when she came into the house Knightley would have nothing to do with her. She waited to see if he would approach her, and he hid behind me. She offered some treats and called his name he tried to run into the other room, but the gate was up, so he peed on the floor (first time ever in the house). We took him out and then after a few minutes tried him again in the house. He wanted nothing to do with her, and wouldn't come to me if I was too close to her.

The trainer feels he is very reserved, shy and abnormally so. She thinks that his fear of people and his dislike of the kids would make him not a good fit for us and our life. We have people over a lot, and a lot of kids, she thinks it's likely he would bite in the future if he got too overwhelmed. Her recommendation was to send him back to the breeder.

We know he needs lots of exercise, mind and body, every day, except yesterday (he was neutered) he has had 2 one hour walks (thought he might be a little young to take running), we also spend time outside doing frisbee and ball (thought both toys were new to him). He has kongs for food and such. 

We have tried contacting breeder have not heard back, but we need to be realistic about what is best for everyone.

[Pawz4me]

I'm sorry the trainer's advice wasn't encouraging.

 

If you do return him to the breeder, please don't get discouraged about finding a dog.  Sounds like you and your family will be fabulous pet owners, and I know there's a truly wonderful dog waiting for you somewhere.  It's worth the effort to find him or her.

 

:grouphug:

[Firefly]

OP, try not to be discouraged.  This may not be the dog for you, but that doesn't mean there isn't one out there for you.  We have an Aussie and they can be great with kids.  Aussies tend to be very shy or wary of strangers (except mine it seems ... always an exception to the rule!) but they take good care of their "flock" (of humans in our case).  Perhaps your boy is not seeing the littles as part of the herd?  Or maybe if you'd brought him home as a puppy he would have bonded with everyone a little easier?  It's hard to say.

 

We got Tess (our Aussie) at about 8 to 10 weeks (can't remember exactly now) and she had spent those first weeks of her life with her mama and siblings in a penned off area in a corner of a busy kitchen with toddlers running around... so she was used to ours when we brought her home from the breeder's.  We'd also brought the kids up the first time we went to meet her so that the breeder could get a gauge of our kids' personalities and get an idea of which puppy would be a good match.  I'd actually had my heart set on a blue merle, but the breeder recommended Tess (a red-tri) because she thought her personality would match well with my kids.  I'm so glad I took her advice!  So, if you decide you want to try again at some point, I'd recommend finding a breeder with a similar philosophy who raises them in an environment similar to what you have at home.

 

Good luck whatever you decide. :)

 

[Journey]

I'm not a dog trainer but i'm not sure i would take this trainer's advice 100%.  I mean, why didn't he go to the lady?  that seems weird.  people say dogs have a "sense" about people and maybe he didn't like her for a reason.  mabye she didn't like him so she's saying to dump him.  This is a hard one.  I guess i would talk to the breeder and tell him/her what's going on (like you haven't already thought of doing that!!).  I hope it works out for you.

[Tammi K]

The trainer made this assessment the day after the dog was neutered? (I'm not sure I'm understanding the timeline correctly.)  That seems to be bad timing. Even the best mannered dog might have an off day the day after he had a substantial insult to his nether regions, wouldn't he? 

[Ripley]

I was just in this situation with a foster dog.

 

He had come from a home of two working adults and a 12 year old, so he was used to spending much of his day in quiet solitude. (Oh, how I envy!) He had been trained to be (overly, IMO) protective of the 12 year old, who was a latch-key kid. It was a huge adjustment coming into our home - we were home all day long, all of us, and there was constant chatter and movement. We have neighborhood kids over everyday, workers on the property coming in/out, and also younger kids of our own.

 

Twice he growled at my friend's 8 year olds, and both times he was resource guarding - their dog is a loverboy and they simply approached him too soon and too fast. We decided to take a few weeks off from having them over so we could work with the dog without the stress the kids were causing him. Unfortunately our first few trainer lessons were canceled due to the winter storms and holidays. We had a brief phone consult, and used that information to get us through the lag. We had been told not to say, "NO!" to growling because it was his way of warning - without it, he might go straight to a bite.

 

Meanwhile, the dog got more comfortable in our home. He was playful, smart, obedient, and showed off his training (tricks, but also he doesn't scratch, jump, chew, destruct, or bark unnecessarily - unless the kids were home and workers/strangers were passing by). He bonded immediately to me and my teen, but only tolerated my 8 year old. We came home a few times to find him sleeping in her bed - he had been allowed on beds at his former home, but not at ours. He had his own bed at ours. We let her be the one to feed him and to give him his marrow bones, hoping it'd endear him to her more. One day she went up to her room and found the dog in her bed, so she told him to get down. He growled, then snapped at her. Afterwards we made sure they were never in the same part of the house together.

 

Well, we have blankets we keep in the living room since my Dad keeps the temperature at Arctic levels. One night my kids failed to pick up their blankets before heading to bed, so they stayed on the floor. I stayed up another five hours and the dog never touched either blanket; nor did I, LOL, I was too lazy! Well in the morning, both kids - at the same time - went to pick up their blankets. From two rooms over, the dog sprinted over to my 8 year old and bit her. Ripped her blanket and her shirt, breaking the skin and leaving a permanent scar. It happened in the blink of an eye, with no growling beforehand. When she screamed and dropped the blanket, the dog immediately hung his head and submitted to my son, who was right there. My guess is that the dog slept on the blanket after I had gone to bed. I'm still kicking myself for being lazy that night.

 

This dog is otherwise perfect, and we're all very attached to him. Even my 8 year old is sad to see him go, but she's as stressed as HE is. I feel badly for them both! We've found him a new permanent home which is more fitting with his personality and prior history. He's going to be a shop dog who can protect as he's been trained to do, in an environment without the stress of feeling he has to guard his goodies from little kids.

 

I hope it works out differently for you :( I thank God that he only got her chest, and not her face ... and that he still showed restraint in making the initial bite, then immediately withdrawing. He didn't maul her, and he could have. He lets the possums and cats roam our property, but he has killed two foxes that "trespassed" and those bones are still in our yard.

 

 

 

 

 

[Pawz4me]

I wouldn't be so quick to second guess or condemn the trainer.

 

She saw the dog in person.  None of us have.  A good trainer will pick up on lots of things that an ordinary pet owner would never, ever notice.

 

I'm not saying the trainer is a "good" one, or that her opinion is correct.  There is no independent licensing agency for trainers.  Anyone can call themselves one.  So maybe she doesn't know what she's talking about.  But I wouldn't write off her opinion cavalierly.  The fact that she didn't offer more advice means little to nothing, IMO.  If it was simply a consultation then she may have treated it as just that.  And remember that she is probably losing quite a bit of business by recommending returning the dog.  Otherwise she'd likely have a client getting lessons from her for a good while.

 

In the end her advice is just one more piece of information to consider.

[Kipling]

I have to agree that the trainer's advice seems a little ... premature, at best. The dog has only been in your house a week, right? This is a brand new environment, new people, and he just had surgery. It doesn't seem like the best time to make a snap decision.

Again, he sounds very much like the pup we brought home from the shelter. He was definitely "reserved." If anyone approached him, he would pee out of nervousness. It was all so new to him. The person who helped us at the shelter recognized that he was a timid/shy dog and warned us that if we didn't train him out of it, he would never be good around people. What she recommended (and what we did) was bring him with us when we went to the park, to soccer practice, or a trip to petsmart. We had people over just so the dog could get used to people coming over to the house. It took some time for him to get used to people, but now he is a friendly dog - not so friendly that he obnoxiously jumps on people, but he is happy to sniff a new person's hand and get to know them. Really a pretty good balance. We actively watched him at first, we made an effort to "socialize" him (don't we homeschoolers love that word), and now he's a great dog that I have no concerns about with other people or kids.

[Liz CA]

Before you make a quick decision, would you consider a second opinion? I mean just in case. If a dog has just arrived at a new family, is confused, possibly a little befuddled by small children wanting to love him "actively" and then another person comes on the scene trying to call him over, away from the people he has just gotten to know...

 

When the Mastiff Rescue worker brought Ted to our house, he followed her into the bathroom because he had been just abandoned and she was the one person that now dealt with him, walked and played with him. When I called him or talked to him, he would not give me the time of day. The worker left and Ted stood at the glass door with this look of "It happened again. I've been left behind." I did not approach him. I went about my business in the kitchen, played soft, classical music and talked to him from wherever I was. Within an hour, he started to follow me from a little distance, then up close. I did a lot of talking to that dog. After the second day, I sat by his bed and petted him all over. We started easy training that was fun because there were treats for things any mastiff can do. Pretty soon, we became friends.

It takes time. I am not sure a trainer can walk into someone's house and declare after an hour or two if an animal is suitable or not. If he were outright aggessive and she observed alarming behavior - yes. But from what you describe, he seems scared and just "new" to your home.

[zoobie]

I wouldn't be so quick to second guess or condemn the trainer.

 

She saw the dog in person. None of us have. A good trainer will pick up on lots of things that an ordinary pet owner would never, ever notice.

 

I'm not saying the trainer is a "good" one, or that her opinion is correct. There is no independent licensing agency for trainers. Anyone can call themselves one. So maybe she doesn't know what she's talking about. But I wouldn't write off her opinion cavalierly. The fact that she didn't offer more advice means little to nothing, IMO. If it was simply a consultation then she may have treated it as just that. And remember that she is probably losing quite a bit of business by recommending returning the dog. Otherwise she'd likely have a client getting lessons from her for a good while.

 

In the end her advice is just one more piece of information to consider.

I agree. Some people are very intuitive with dogs.

 

Was it the day after surgery (possibly misreading posts) and did the trainer know? Our newest dog recently got neutered and definitely was not himself the next day. He acted weird (more assertive, not quite aggressive but definitely grumpy) until the Cone of Shame was removed.

[Trish]

I wouldn't give up on dogs in general for your family, if this one doesn't work out. My family growing up had several mixed breed dogs, the first didn't work out (growled at the youngest child in our house) but the rest were fabulous and they were never trained per se.

 

But, you should always err on the side of caution when it comes to your kids' safety.

[Laurie4b]

I wanted to add that in the post above, the English Shepherd we have (close cousins to the Aussie) is also reserved. We got her from a shelter at about 9 months of age, so who knows what happened in that time period, but I think she may have been the omega pup and just a timid personality (unusual for that breed) but also may have been abused. She was very afraid of my husband for a lonnng time. She will still, after 15 years with us, cringe if we make a sudden movement around her.

 

She remains a "scaredy dog" and very slow to warm up around strangers. I have always been scrupulously careful with visitors, telling them NOT to approach her. (People will see her backing off, and go toward her even more, instead of reading her body language.) I've always been on guard against a fear bite from someone "cornering" her in an effort to be friendly. I tell people to ignore her if they want to help her relax. Sometimes, with some people and not with others, she will then approach them. She's never growled at or bitten anyone (aside from growling at the little ones).   So I understand about the trainer might have meant.

 

In our case, she was able to make adjustments and stopped growling at my youngest. But I had a trainer to work with. That trainer was skeptical, I must say. She'd worked with a pair of English shepherds before who were very aggressive and had to be put down. But we wanted to give it a try and she worked with us and it all worked out.

[indigomama]

Yes, the trainer came the day after his neuter. But she said even taking that into account, he seemed to be scared and was probably scared of the kids. We could try working on it, but she felt it would be a lot of work and he might warm up to our kids, but what about friends coming over, or us going places with other kids. For what it's worth, she was recommended by our vet, she breeds and shows German Shepherds, and has been training dogs for 20+ years. I felt comfortable with her opinions.

 

We finally got ahold of the breeder, she recommended bringing him back as well. 

 

Our whole family is very upset. We also just feel done with trying to find a good fit. 

[Journey]

i don't mean to sound rude but i guess i don't understand why you're having so much trouble finding a dog for your family.  I work in a kennel so i'm familiar alot of breeds and there has to be one out there that would fit.  Goldens, Labs, Standard Poodles, Golden Doodles or Labradoodles,Mutts, Mutts, Mutts, the list goes on and on. I know there are families out there with lots of kids who have dogs so, just what is the "problem" that you are dealing with? 

[indigomama]

i don't mean to sound rude but i guess i don't understand why you're having so much trouble finding a dog for your family.  I work in a kennel so i'm familiar alot of breeds and there has to be one out there that would fit.  Goldens, Labs, Standard Poodles, Golden Doodles or Labradoodles,Mutts, Mutts, Mutts, the list goes on and on. I know there are families out there with lots of kids who have dogs so, just what is the "problem" that you are dealing with? 

 

I live in a small town, with no larger town for 2 hours and no very big town for 4 hours, so that makes it harder to find a dog.

 

The shelter here usually knows nothing about their dogs and I have 5 kids ages 2-9, I can't just assume they will be good with my kids. Very few rescues, but they all have our numbers.

 

My landlord is afraid that a dog the size of a lab,golden, Standard poodle would scratch up her floors.

 

Really there aren't a lot of options for getting a dog in my area. I used to live in the Portland Metro area, dogs available everywhere, not so much in rural Nebraska.

 

Sorry, if my "problem" doesn't feel legitimate to you.

[Guest submarines]

At first you said that the dog was a great dog, other than the two incidents of growling. Have you observed him being reserved and scared prior to the trainer's visit? 

 

It is also difficult for me to understand the general obsession with a "perfect dog" and sending dogs back. Growling is a normal dog behavior, a way to communicate. If two incidents of growling indicates to you that the dog should be sent back, then you shouldn't have a dog. If one gets a dog, one should be prepared to invest lots of time and money into training. The poor dog wasn't even give a chance to adjust!

 

 

[sassenach]

We had a dog adoption not work out. It's stressful! We also had a toddler at the time, and I think it's just hard to adopt a dog with toddlers in the house. Have you considered a small breed? I know some people don't consider them to be "real" dogs, but we've had 2 chihuahuas, and I love them. They're really low maintenance and sweet dogs. You have to be careful in the opposite direction, making sure the little kids don't hurt the dog, but we had a chihuahua puppy when my youngest was 1 1/2 and it was no problem (probably because my youngest is a girl, the dog would not have survived an 18mo version of my son).

 

Lastly, if you decide to rethink sending your current dog back, is there any reason you can't crate him when guests come over? My chihuahua has gotten grumpy with young kids now that all of mine have grown up (he was great with them when they were little), and we just crate him when little kids come over. We even crate our lab when certain kids come over (who are afraid of him. Labs don't understand personal space).

[indigomama]

At first you said that the dog was a great dog, other than the two incidents of growling. Have you observed him being reserved and scared prior to the trainer's visit? 

 

It is also difficult for me to understand the general obsession with a "perfect dog" and sending dogs back. Growling is a normal dog behavior, a way to communicate. If two incidents of growling indicates to you that the dog should be sent back, then you shouldn't have a dog. If one gets a dog, one should be prepared to invest lots of time and money into training. The poor dog wasn't even give a chance to adjust!

 

 

He was great with my husband and I. He was good with my oldest boys, he growled and avoided my girls. Later yesterday, he got super stressed on a walk when DH passed younger kids. The trainer, the only one here, the one we immediately called, and paid for with no problem, suggested that he would not be the best fit around children. My home revolves around children. The breeder after getting a hold of her said her grandkids who he'd been around, not lived with were my oldest's age or older, agreed that he could be scared of my youngers, willingly took him back to find him a more appropriate home. We are not getting and getting rid of multiple dogs. 

 

We have discussed waiting until our youngers are a little older, and possibly even till we can buy a place and not be limited by breed sizes. We recognize this, we are not as heartless or stupid as you seem to imply.

 

Thank you to those who shared and offered their perspectives. 

[RoughCollie]

The breeder after getting a hold of her said her grandkids who he'd been around, not lived with were my oldest's age or older, agreed that he could be scared of my youngers, willingly took him back to find him a more appropriate home.

 

Great!  That is why reputable breeders have a return the dog to them clause in their contracts if anything happens such that a family cannot keep a dog.  I think you made the best decision for your family, and I applaud you for asking for advice from various sources, for getting the trainer out there, and for making a well-informed decision in which you took all factors into consideration. 

 

I also think that if you had given the dog a longer time to adjust to being a member of your family, it would have been much harder on both the dog and your family to return him to the breeder.  From the dog's perspective, there is no difference between him staying with your family for a few days, and being taken care of by others while the owner was on vacation.

[Laurie4b]

At first you said that the dog was a great dog, other than the two incidents of growling. Have you observed him being reserved and scared prior to the trainer's visit? 

 

It is also difficult for me to understand the general obsession with a "perfect dog" and sending dogs back. Growling is a normal dog behavior, a way to communicate. If two incidents of growling indicates to you that the dog should be sent back, then you shouldn't have a dog. If one gets a dog, one should be prepared to invest lots of time and money into training. The poor dog wasn't even give a chance to adjust!

 

Did you read the whole thread? The OP isn't in the quest for a perfect dog.

 

She had a legitimate concern because the growling was directed only at young children. She had a trainer with a lot of experience come evaluate who said that dog wasn't a good fit and express concern that the dog was afraid of the little kids. Fear biting is a real issue. 

 

I think the OP did the responsible thing in following an experienced trainer's advice. I'm sure there would have been plenty of people tell her she was irresponsible if she had ignored that advice and the result was that one of her kids got bitten in the face or worse.

[Tammyla]

Op, I know it was difficult, but I  think you did the right thing for the dog and your family.

[KungFuPanda]

What does "reserved" mean in dogs? Does it mean aloof, fearful, or cautious? Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but is there a dog in the world that lacks the potential to bite in the future? It might be unrealistic to get an animal and expect it never to act like one.

 

Around here, they strongly discourage pet adoption until the youngest person in the house is six. So many pets are returned because of their interaction with very young children.

[Penny_P]

^{Sorry about the trainer's advice.  We are currently looking at scar revision when our springer mix bit our then 2 year old on the face a couple years ago.  The dog was rehomed and has since snapped at two other people.  She loves him and won't give him up.  Prior to that we rehomed a bassett for snapping at my daughter who was a toddler at the time.  No dogs for us. I'm not willing to micromanage a dog on top of everything else. We have a nice cuddly kitty, instead. I'm not weighing in on your situation, just be aware that bites can and do happen.}

[J-rap]

I'm very sorry you went through that; I know how very, very difficult a decision like this is with a dog whom who are growing to love.

 

I wanted to share with you my own experience, which is very, very similar to yours. 

 

We had an Aussie as well.  His mother was a miniature, and his father was regular sized, and our pup was regular sized as well.  We got him a little younger than yours.  He was the last one in the litter.  He was absolutely adorable, with the sweetest little personality.  We fell in love with him instantly.  I had never had an Aussie, and didn't know much about them except that they were herders and very smart.

 

I eventually -- due to a very similar problem -- did a lot of research and talked to a lot people.  This is what I learned about Aussies:

 

They are very, very smart.  They are very "out there" with their reactions.  They are bred to react instantly, and to move forward into a situation rather than hold back.  This is a very natural, strong instinct.  For example, if they are upstairs and hear a noise downstairs, they will not stand at the top of the stairs listening, cocking their head to hear;  they will simply run downstairs to see what it is.  If they are outside and they see a commotion 100 yards away, they will not first survey the situation and then react.  They will immediately run toward the situation and become involved.

 

As pups, you may not notice this, but as they mature, this instinct becomes so strong that it becomes a very prominent feature of their personalities.  This is usually fine because they are smart, level headed dogs not prone to aggression, and aren't going to do anything weird.

 

But, like any other breed, every now and then you will have a pup that is extremely shy.  This was ours.  We didn't know it at first, because with us he was just very sweet and perfect. 

 

Except, we noticed he would growl (as a pup) now and then with my husband, my son, and one daughter.  It was weird at first, but we realized it was because they were tall.  Our pup was from a family of 9, 7 kids and 2 adults, all of them very short (even the father).  He was nervous around tall or large people. 

 

But, he was just a pup and I thought we could train him out of it.  It turned out to be just the tip of the iceberg, because in an Aussie, the combination of their reactions being "out there" but also being extremely shy, results in fear aggression that happens so quickly you don't have even a second to step in and try to stop it.  We tried EVERYTHING we could think of, including working with a trainer (two), giving bags of treats to all of our neighbors, our mailman, and every person who walked into the house (and they in turn would toss a treat to our dog), and so much more. 

 

In the end, even after a year, we could not train this instinct out of our dog.  In fact, it only got worse.  We were very, very careful with our dog and never let anyone in our house until we knew our dog was on a leash or in a gated area.  However, two times in the period of a month someone walked into our house without knocking.  Once it was a girl, another time a man.  Our dog attacked them so quickly, that even though we were 6 feet away, we couldn't prevent him from doing so.

 

His breeder took him back, but it was very, very difficult for all of us.  He was the sweetest dog in absolutely every other way.  His breeder did tell us that he had been the shyest pup she had ever had.  When she used to bring all the pups outside, he would hide behind a pick-up truck the whole time. 

 

I'm not saying that your dog is like this necessarily, but I did want to share with you my experience and what I learned about Aussies.  Once I understood their personalities better I knew I had made the right decision.  Maybe the trainer you met with knows Aussies as well.  We live in a small town too, so I also understand how it's not always easy to find the right dog.  But they are out there, so don't give up!   We've had wonderful dogs over the years, and you will find one just right for your family eventually.

Yes, the trainer came the day after his neuter. But she said even taking that into account, he seemed to be scared and was probably scared of the kids. We could try working on it, but she felt it would be a lot of work and he might warm up to our kids, but what about friends coming over, or us going places with other kids. For what it's worth, she was recommended by our vet, she breeds and shows German Shepherds, and has been training dogs for 20+ years. I felt comfortable with her opinions.

 

We finally got ahold of the breeder, she recommended bringing him back as well. 

 

Our whole family is very upset. We also just feel done with trying to find a good fit. 

 

[indigomama]

 

jjhat7, Thank you very much for sharing. I think we had very similar dogs, I am sorry you had to return him after having him so long. It must have been heartbreaking. Thank you for understanding. 

 

[Stayseeliz]

We had this situation happen with a shelter dog last year. She growled at my toddler twice then snapped at her. I called the shelter and they said to bring her back right away. They said keeping her wasn't best for her or us. I agree. It was hard but like another poster said, bites can and do happen.