Educate me a bit on girls and dating!

[Guest]

I chose "middle ground," because none of the choices totally fit. I'm probably closest to choosing the first one, but I wouldn't necessarily say "be kinda serious and stick to one man," although so far, that is how it has worked out for my dd. I'm also not a huge fan of the "free dinner" POV. I don't want my kids (either gender) to go on a date for "free dinner." They can eat at home if they want free dinner, kwim? IOW, I would expect my kids to "go dutch" until/unless there is potential for a long-term relationship and then, if the guy insists or desires to, he can pay. 

 

AFA age goes, I don't have a specific age in mind for any gender child. I don't mind a 12-year-old intentionally going somewhere that a guy they like will be, but not in a one-on-one setting with serious undertones. I took my dd to Lego competitions to see a guy compete when she was about 13. I've taken ds to group activities where I know he is interested in a particular girl and there are other kids in the group that have interests there. For intentional activities with someone they clearly identify as their "boyfriend," the age is about 16 or maybe 15 if the setting is acceptable to me.

 

Ultimately, I don't base these things on age because age tells you nothing but how many years they've been alive. There's much to be assessed about the particular people involved, the type of activity, whether there is money involved, how your child is (reckless? cautious? emotional?), how you think the "interest" is and so on. 

 

 

[Tiramisu]

Boys started being interested in my dd around 16. Watching that happen was interesting to me. It was as though a switch was flipped. Every one of the boys was in our social circle, where a lot of kids would get together for events and hang out, nearly always with parents and other family members around. Dd didn't find someone she liked until 17, but then he and his family wanted them to have opportunities to go out and do things alone together instead of with the group and their families. I wasn't opposed to that if dd wanted it to, but she was not comfortable. Eventually, dd ended the relationship because of the pressure they were putting on her. It was rather manipulative with them suggesting something was wrong with her and she'd be fixed if they just did what they said. His mother even told me she was afraid dd would "crash and burn" at college because she was "in a bubble", all because of her reticence to go out alone with her son. It was a very painful time. But she's now she's away at college and thriving, with good friends of both sexes. So there!   :p

 

I still can't imagine her "dating". Finding a guy she likes that she's in classes or a club with, etc., and spending time with him is one thing. But there is something so artificial about "dating" the way I think of it. I don't know if I ever actually went on a date and had a good time or had it lead to anything meaningful. I married a co-worker and it didn't turn out so bad. :)

 

 

 

[Scarlett]

See that's what I'm wondering. Were your lists useful and valid as adults but the same procedure might have shown misplaced values or a lack of self-perception or what was worthwhile at 14, 16, or even 18?

I agree with Rosie that the list would have been helpful if an adult could have been a guiding force. Like many 18 yos I did not listen to counsel. Hopefully my son will listen and learn from my mistakes.

 

Naturally a 44 yo with life experience can make a better list than a 16 yo. But I am talking constantly with my ds13 about what kind of spouse he would like.

[Rosie_0801]

I didn't listen to counsel either. They were right about him not being the best choice, but wrong on their reasoning. My conclusion is that more time needs to be spent with each other's family and friends so warnings given are based on actual experience. I'm sure that is obvious to many people, but it's not the culture I existed in.
 

[T'smom]

Hmmm, I didn't fit any of the poll options either. My only dd is only 3 years old, so this is theoretical. I will encourage her to get to know lots of people in lots of situations without getting too serious. I will try to make sure that she feels very loved and accepted and secure. I know I would have had different experiences if I hadn't been "looking for love" and I've seen sooooo many women make horrible mistakes with men because they want someone to love them. I will try to keep her busy enough that she doesn't have time for a serious relationship! I spent most of high school with the same boy and spent way, way, WAY too much time obsessing about him instead of focusing on my own personal development. At the same time, I won't forbid her from seeing a boy (except in extreme circumstances) because I know how well that worked out for my parents! It just drove me much closer to him and much farther away from them. I just hope that I raise her to be a strong, confident woman who can make good choices in who she spends her time with. By the time she is 16-17, I expect to mostly be an advisor and keep the lines of communication open so she can come to me with any problems. When I was 16, I was lying to my parents constantly about who I was with and where I was. I saw them as making stupid, arbitrary rules and I wasn't going to follow them. And I was a "good" kid. I was an honor roll student who never drank or tried drugs and I actually never even slept with the guy I dated for 2 1/2 years.

[Mrs Mungo]

I voted other.

 

My aunt offered me some advice about this when I was a teen, and I think it was good advice. She said to go out on lots of dates, go out to dinner or whatever, but don't *continue* to date someone that you wouldn't consider marriage material. That's pretty much what I did. I went out on lots of dates with lots of guys, but I didn't continue to date them, if they didn't measure up to certain standards.

 

Currently, my eldest dd has a boyfriend. He's also a military homeschooled kid. Neither of them can drive on their own just yet (poor military kids, their license stuff can get so messed up with these stepped licensing states). So, they go out with groups. They are dropped off in public places. They hang out with each other's families. It seems to be working okay. He's a good kid, and so is she.

[PeterPan]

I agree with Rosie that the list would have been helpful if an adult could have been a guiding force. Like many 18 yos I did not listen to counsel. Hopefully my son will listen and learn from my mistakes.

 

Naturally a 44 yo with life experience can make a better list than a 16 yo. But I am talking constantly with my ds13 about what kind of spouse he would like.

Ok, I'd love to hear/see the kinds of lists y'all are making or would make!  Rosie, anyone...  My own internal and quietly spoken lists at the time were so brief (love God, like to sing, able to teach).  I didn't have anything sophisticated about personality or this or that.

[Rosie_0801]

You'd have to get me drunk before I'd share that with my brother, let alone post it here!

[PeterPan]

I voted other.

 

My aunt offered me some advice about this when I was a teen, and I think it was good advice. She said to go out on lots of dates, go out to dinner or whatever, but don't *continue* to date someone that you wouldn't consider marriage material. That's pretty much what I did. I went out on lots of dates with lots of guys, but I didn't continue to date them, if they didn't measure up to certain standards.

 

This is fascinating!  Multiple people here have mentioned encouraging their dds to pay their own way (go Dutch) when taken out until a certain point or to avoid seemingly owing something.  Is this the norm now?  My mother never talked with me about this (oops) and I remember going out with a guy, paying for my half, and him looking at me REALLY FUNNY.  However I think he was in the "then you owe me something" camp.  We had met at a party and I never went out with him again, thankfully.  I just assumed from that that a girl paying her way was inappropriate.  It never occurred to me that this had become culturally accepted.  So what says the Hive?

[Rosie_0801]

I thought a girl was supposed to offer to pay her half, but a guy shouldn't call her bluff until about the third date?

 

[Scarlett]

You'd have to get me drunk before I'd share that with my brother, let alone post it here!

Ditto. LOL. I gave my dh the list on our wedding day. I didn't share it with him at all until then.

 

I don't consider anything on my list frivolous....although I do remember having to think really hard for the 10th one. Physical characteristics weren't on the list at all.

[Mrs Mungo]

This is fascinating! Multiple people here have mentioned encouraging their dds to pay their own way (go Dutch) when taken out until a certain point or to avoid seemingly owing something. Is this the norm now? My mother never talked with me about this (oops) and I remember going out with a guy, paying for my half, and him looking at me REALLY FUNNY. However I think he was in the "then you owe me something" camp. We had met at a party and I never went out with him again, thankfully. I just assumed from that that a girl paying her way was inappropriate. It never occurred to me that this had become culturally accepted. So what says the Hive?

I always met guys places our first few dates and usually paid for myself. Splitting costs seems fairly common among young people?

[PeterPan]

I thought a girl was supposed to offer to pay her half, but a guy shouldn't call her bluff until about the third date?

No way, is THAT supposed to be the rule?!?!  Seems reasonable.  I asked my dh tonight, and he was horrified that a girl would try to pay her own way, haha.  Guess times have changed.  That seems pretty reasonable, though, to offer and then let the guy pay if he wants.  Is that common in the US now?

[Donna]

My dd will be allowed to date at the same age her brothers were allowed....16. Prior to that, she might be allowed to go somewhere with a group or have a friend to the house but no "one-on-one."

 

I voted "other" because I am not of the "enjoy the free dinner" mindset because I think it is fine to split costs when dating. I also don't want her being "kinda serious" initially. I think it is fine to go on dates with a number of different people as long as everyone is upfront about it and not serious. I will encourage her to get to know a lot of different people before she makes a decision to get serious with any one of them especially in her teen years. 

[TracyP]

Ok, I'd love to hear/see the kinds of lists y'all are making or would make!  Rosie, anyone...  My own internal and quietly spoken lists at the time were so brief (love God, like to sing, able to teach).  I didn't have anything sophisticated about personality or this or that.

 

I think the idea of a list is a good one, but I agree that it needs adult perspective if the list maker is young. I never had a written list. I did have a few things in mind that would have been helpful to write down and think through a little better. My SIL made a list and it honestly seems silly. He has to be tall, handsome, a rancher, etc. It seems very superficial. However, I realize now that she is superficial. I think she would really struggle being married to somebody who wasn't considered good-looking. So maybe she knew what was most important to her? I dunno. I'm rambling. I like the idea of a list, but I'm not convinced that is the best way to narrow down possible partners.

 

I think the best way to get to know somebody is spend time with their friends and family. I fell in love with my dh when I saw how much he loved his mom and brother. I saw the respect his friends had for him and it impressed me. ETA: pushed send too fast. I don't know that he would have made the cut if I would have had a list. So, I guess I have mixed feeling on lists.

[Muttichen]

This is fascinating!  Multiple people here have mentioned encouraging their dds to pay their own way (go Dutch) when taken out until a certain point or to avoid seemingly owing something.  Is this the norm now?  My mother never talked with me about this (oops) and I remember going out with a guy, paying for my half, and him looking at me REALLY FUNNY.  However I think he was in the "then you owe me something" camp.  We had met at a party and I never went out with him again, thankfully.  I just assumed from that that a girl paying her way was inappropriate.  It never occurred to me that this had become culturally accepted.  So what says the Hive?

 

We teach our boys that they should always pay!  They don't have much money before they are 17, so paying for dates slows them down and makes them think more seriously about dating.  Once they are older and have a serious girlfriend, they can take turns paying. Similarly, our girls expect the boy to pay.  Of course, they offer to split the bill, but I consider it a warning sign if a guy isn't willing to spend money on a girl he likes.

 

In general, I think it is best for kids to just be friends in high school.  Dating puts pressure on the relationship that they're not ready for.  Kids never want to believe that, though.... We do let our kids date in groups from around age 16 and alone when they are in 12th grade.  We expect our boys to go and talk to a girl's parents before they date, and our girls' boyfriends need to come to talk to us.

[Mrs Mungo]

About lists-I definitely had a do and don't list. I didn't continue to date guys who smoked, who drank excessively, who pressured me to go home with them (especially on the first date or two), etc. I did date guys who had a job, who had an idea of what they wanted to do I the future, who went to church, who wanted kids, etc.

 

but I consider it a warning sign if a guy isn't willing to spend money on a girl he likes.

I think this is sort of unfair. Plenty of kids these days are being raised in egalitarian households. I was raised to meet a guy someplace and split the bill because then there is no pressure of any kind on the girl. She can pay and leave. I had a date in college who had 3 Jack and cokes before dinner arrived. I was never so thankful to be able to pay my tab and drive myself home. Just because he allows her to pay her way, that doesn't mean that he is unwilling to pay.

[PeterPan]

About lists-I definitely had a do and don't list. I didn't continue to date guys who smoked, who drank excessively, who pressured me to go home with them (especially on the first date or two), etc. I did date guys who had a job, who had an idea of what they wanted to do I the future, who went to church, who wanted kids, etc.

 

I think this is sort of unfair. Plenty of kids these days are being raised in egalitarian households. I was raised to meet a guy someplace and split the bill because then there is no pressure of any kind on the girl. She can pay and leave. I had a date in college who had 3 Jack and cokes before dinner arrived. I was never so thankful to be able to pay my tab and drive myself home. Just because he allows her to pay her way, that doesn't mean that he is unwilling to pay.

Truth be told, I'd expect my dd to date the kind of guy who would pay.  Guess we're just not egalitarian enough.   :D

 

(That's not to disparage anyoneone's sons here!  Just saying in general that's what I would have expected.)

 

But seriously, this has been fascinating to think through!  All kinds of issues that hadn't occurred to me, and I'm glad to have the points now to talk through with dd.  Thanks ladies!!!   :)

 

PS.  I think I would have gotten up and left that drinking dude even before the dinner arrived.  (sudden headache, I'll call a cab, whatever)  What a mess.

[PeterPan]

We teach our boys that they should always pay!  They don't have much money before they are 17, so paying for dates slows them down and makes them think more seriously about dating.  Once they are older and have a serious girlfriend, they can take turns paying. Similarly, our girls expect the boy to pay.  Of course, they offer to split the bill, but I consider it a warning sign if a guy isn't willing to spend money on a girl he likes.

 

In general, I think it is best for kids to just be friends in high school.  Dating puts pressure on the relationship that they're not ready for.  Kids never want to believe that, though.... We do let our kids date in groups from around age 16 and alone when they are in 12th grade.  We expect our boys to go and talk to a girl's parents before they date, and our girls' boyfriends need to come to talk to us.

I love your perspective on this.  You're so right that this is the kind of gentleman I'd expect for my dd, and that's an interesting point that it slows them down and causes them to be thoughtful.  And a focus on friends in high school, yes, that seems like TERRIFIC advice!  As always!  :D

[Camelfeet]

I thought the rules about dating were whoever invites the other out, pays?  

 

I'd like my daughters to pay their share of the date or at least take turns paying for the event.  The idea that the male should be financially responsible for the female by default really leaves a bad taste in my mouth.  I don't like the idea of my daughters feeling like they "owe" their date anything afterwards just because he decided to spend money on them.    

[DragonFaerie]

*sigh*  I had passed up this thread thinking I wasn't "there" yet.  Then last night, DD asked me when she can date.  She's 12 and knows that she cannot date anytime soon.  But, many of her friends have "boyfriends."  I told her that her friends likely aren't "dating" but more talking or texting and calling each other BF/GF.  I touched briefly on the dating is a prelude to marriage thing and that many girls meet their future husbands in college.  In any case, I told her she can date when she is 16 and can drive herself home if her date turns out to be a jerk.

 

I have told my kids they shouldn't go out on 1:1 dates until they can drive home if there's trouble - which means they have to have a license. That slows them down, too, LOL.

[Haiku]

My oldest dd started dating at 16. I was opposed to it but chose not to fight dh, who had no objections, on the issue because we had so many other issues to deal with in regards to that daughter. I don't think that it benefited dd in any way. She is now 19 and has an on-again, off-again boyfriend, and I don't think that relationship benefits her in any way, either, but I stay out of it.

 

With my younger two, I will discourage dating while in high school, and I'm willing to go to the mat on this one with dh. I wasted an enormous amount of time and heartache on adolescent relationships when I was a teen, and contrary to some people's (including dh's) opinion that dating helps you figure out what you are looking for in a relationship, I think that it's just a platform for hormonal teens to become way too emotionally involved with someone with whom a long-term future is extremely unlikely. I want my kids to be focused on family, school, and community service, not obsessed with some fickle relationship. (Now, I will say that my high school boyfriend was a very nice guy, until we had to beak up, and then we were waaaay too immature to figure out how to do that well, and it caused hurt that stayed with me for some time. I also neglected other aspects of my life so that I could spend all my time with this one guy.)

 

So, I said my dd can date at 18, and I answered "other" to the first question. I think that when you are an adult, dating could be both fun and casual or a prelude to marriage, depending on what each person is looking for. I will say, however, now that I am safely ensconced in a happy marriage, that dating sucks. It's much nicer to be married.

[PeterPan]

My oldest dd started dating at 16. I was opposed to it but chose not to fight dh, who had no objections, on the issue because we had so many other issues to deal with in regards to that daughter. I don't think that it benefited dd in any way. She is now 19 and has an on-again, off-again boyfriend, and I don't think that relationship benefits her in any way, either, but I stay out of it.

 

With my younger two, I will discourage dating while in high school, and I'm willing to go to the mat on this one with dh. I wasted an enormous amount of time and heartache on adolescent relationships when I was a teen, and contrary to some people's (including dh's) opinion that dating helps you figure out what you are looking for in a relationship, I think that it's just a platform for hormonal teens to become way too emotionally involved with someone with whom a long-term future is extremely unlikely. I want my kids to be focused on family, school, and community service, not obsessed with some fickle relationship. (Now, I will say that my high school boyfriend was a very nice guy, until we had to beak up, and then we were waaaay too immature to figure out how to do that well, and it caused hurt that stayed with me for some time. I also neglected other aspects of my life so that I could spend all my time with this one guy.)

 

So, I said my dd can date at 18, and I answered "other" to the first question. I think that when you are an adult, dating could be both fun and casual or a prelude to marriage, depending on what each person is looking for. I will say, however, now that I am safely ensconced in a happy marriage, that dating sucks. It's much nicer to be married.

This.  Even though we know people for whom it has worked out, there are a lot more for whom it's just the bolded.  

[Sarah CB]

I'm too confused to vote.  If you had asked me when dd was 7, or even 13, I would have had a very clear and well-reasoned answer.  Now, I'm not too sure.

 

I read a lot of "Kissed Dating Goodbye" type books with dd when she was 12 and 13.  She bought in and even asked for a purity ring for her 13th birthday.  

 

At 17, someone we had known through sports made his interest in her apparent and asked to come and speak to dh.  He asked for permission to date dd.  He was very sweet and humble and respectful.  We said yes, but cautiously, as dd was scheduled to leave for uni four months after.  They got very serious very quickly with the young man expressing his intention to move across the country to where dd would be going to uni.  Dd fell hard for him and they talked about how they would get married when she was a little older.  

 

This is where I stopped thinking the whole "no dating" thing was a good idea.  Dd had been homeschooled her whole life - except for three semesters in high school.  She'd always lived at home and was so very young.  I wanted her to have a chance to be on her own - without her parents, without a serious boyfriend - so she could figure out who she was and where she was going.

 

Thankfully, dd realized she didn't want a long distance relationship about three weeks after she left home.  

 

I certainly don't want her to run around and date a bunch of people or be serious about a lot of people or be serious in a casual context, but I do hope that she makes a lot of friends and meets a bunch of new people and has time to figure herself out before she ends up in a serious relationship.

 

I have no idea how to proceed with my younger three...

[Sarah CB]

We've got what I think is a really healthy group of friends for my boys right now.  The older two are 11 and 13 and have a group of boy and girl friends.  The 13 year old, especially, is motivated to arrange social get-togethers.  He organizes movie nights, mini-golf, ice skating, etc., and then texts all his friends - boys and girls.  They're all just friends - no boyfriends/girlfriends - and they have a lot of common interests (Dr. Who, various books they read, etc.).  

 

We even have boy/girl sleepovers!  I'm not sure how long these can go on, but it would seem weird to leave some friends out just because they're girls.  

 

 

[Scarlett]

My oldest dd started dating at 16. I was opposed to it but chose not to fight dh, who had no objections, on the issue because we had so many other issues to deal with in regards to that daughter. I don't think that it benefited dd in any way. She is now 19 and has an on-again, off-again boyfriend, and I don't think that relationship benefits her in any way, either, but I stay out of it.

 

With my younger two, I will discourage dating while in high school, and I'm willing to go to the mat on this one with dh. I wasted an enormous amount of time and heartache on adolescent relationships when I was a teen, and contrary to some people's (including dh's) opinion that dating helps you figure out what you are looking for in a relationship, I think that it's just a platform for hormonal teens to become way too emotionally involved with someone with whom a long-term future is extremely unlikely. I want my kids to be focused on family, school, and community service, not obsessed with some fickle relationship. (Now, I will say that my high school boyfriend was a very nice guy, until we had to beak up, and then we were waaaay too immature to figure out how to do that well, and it caused hurt that stayed with me for some time. I also neglected other aspects of my life so that I could spend all my time with this one guy.)

 

So, I said my dd can date at 18, and I answered "other" to the first question. I think that when you are an adult, dating could be both fun and casual or a prelude to marriage, depending on what each person is looking for. I will say, however, now that I am safely ensconced in a happy marriage, that dating sucks. It's much nicer to be married.

Perfectly sums up my feelings on it.

[caitlinsmom]

We decided on age 16 if they kids want to.  Mainly for practical purposes like driving, income from working, etc. 

 

I think dating before marriage is important.  I dated many guys (mostly friends) before meeting dh.  I came into our marriage without reservations because I'd had the experience of knowing what I wanted in a spouse.  Dh on the other hand dated little to none until we met.  He had a much harder time transitioning to marriage because of it. 

 

I never dated with the eye on a potential spouse.  I always dated to have fun with someone whose company I enjoyed.  Dating was a way of knowing what I wanted later.  I don't think that everyone is a potential spouse and I never would have considered all my relationships in that way.  I never planned to marry so I never had a list of things I wanted or didn't but even if I had I can see now they wouldn't have been entirely useful.  In my teen know it all world, everything was black and white.  Little is black and white in a relationship and that isn't something you learn until you've had experience. 

 

For the most part I think dating in the teen years is best done in a group because it's just more fun, however I am not opposed to couple dates.  We've already talked about sex at my house and will continue to do so as they get older.  If that is a choice they make, they will go into it with all the knowledge they can (re diseases, contraception, etc).  Do I want them to be intimate as a teen?  No, but that isn't a choice I can make for them.  I can only prepare them in all ways to make a choice they can live with later on.

 

 

[Farrar]

I just answered hypothetically since I have boys and to see the poll.  I think it's a sort of personal - not a single right answer.  But I do think the dd in question has to have some agency about this.  You mold them, you share your views, you set reasonable house rules, but then they'll have their own idea of what the purpose of dating is and their own take and trying to fight that is nearly always a losing prospect.

[Joanne]

Why are we asking and discussing *girls*?

 

My ideas on dating......

 

For the purposes of this post:

 

I do not have religious ideas or commandments about intimacy.

 

dating - going on a date with a person

relationship - going on repeated dates with the same person, includes some level of physical affection

 

I don't believe that dating is for when you are ready to consider marriage - I also don't think marriage is the "end goal" for all humans, and I am not fond of the assumption that it is (and when that exists, it is usually a heterosexual assumption).

 

I believe that dating - going somewhere with a person with the purpose of romantic companionship - is fine for its own sake. I think it is absolutely acceptable and even, at times, desirable to date. Personally, I would not date several men (using gender because I am heterosexual) with whom I am physical. I'm not necessarily against that for others. If I were *dating*, I would personally not engage in anything more than a hug and peck at the end of a date.

 

Relationship - which for me includes dating one man and some level of physical intimacy - is not something I'd do if I were dating others. And I would not consider it to be as a process of marriage consideration. It would be for mutual companionship and enjoyment at a level and purpose determined by the individuals.

 

I also believe that if two individuals mutually decide to have a physical relationship, but not another level of relationship - that is a viable option. Probably not likely to be maturely achieved in early adult years. But at nearly 50? Sure. ;)

 

As far as my kids, I believe that teens are made for physical affection in romance. I think it's unkind and even cruel to make them live in their bodies and not express that part of themselves. I believe that they need the guidance, coaching, and mentoring of adults. I believe they need to be equipped to make wise choices with regard to their physical selves, including sex, romance, exclusivity, and romance. I also believe that making some mistakes is expected and part of the process. I hope to be (and have been) there for my kids during that process.

 

I do not put age/arbitrary ages on any of it. My daughter (17) has not dated, has never had a boyfriend, and isn't interested. She thinks it is all "too much drama" as she observes her peers. My oldest (going on 19) has had a few "relationships" - and I have been a resource for him. He has also chosen not to invite me into his conversation and thought process at times. I consider this completely age appropriate and expected. We've had so many discussions about relationships, sex, romance that he "knows" what I would say. My youngest (15 next month) has had a few "girlfriends" and has gone on supervised dates. He hasn't been involved with anyone in over a year.

 

I have made sure that my children have access to birth control, more than one competent adult, and community resources.

 

[Scarlett]

I thought the rules about dating were whoever invites the other out, pays?

 

I'd like my daughters to pay their share of the date or at least take turns paying for the event. The idea that the male should be financially responsible for the female by default really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I don't like the idea of my daughters feeling like they "owe" their date anything afterwards just because he decided to spend money on them.

I think we can effectively teach our children that they don't ever 'owe' anyone just because they are bough a meal. It some circles it is customary for males to pay for a meal.....the idea that he would feel entitled to sex of any kind is a repulsive notion that should be met head on. I wouldn't want to teach a girl that she was asking for trouble by accepting a meal or other gift.

[PeterPan]

Why are we asking and discussing *girls*?  Because I have a girl.  :D

 

...

dating - going on a date with a person

relationship - going on repeated dates with the same person, includes some level of physical affection

 

Thanks for the fascinating analysis.  I wondered if you'd chime in.  :)

...

As far as my kids, I believe that teens are made for physical affection in romance. I think it's unkind and even cruel to make them live in their bodies and not express that part of themselves. I believe that they need the guidance, coaching, and mentoring of adults. I believe they need to be equipped to make wise choices with regard to their physical selves, including sex, romance, exclusivity, and romance. I also believe that making some mistakes is expected and part of the process. I hope to be (and have been) there for my kids during that process.

 

You know this point is the one that confuses me most culturally.  You take kids who are blossoming, who a century or two earlier might have been married or independent or able to self-support by a given age, and we tell them to wait an extra 10 years to go to college and grad school and OH BY THE WAY make sure you stay "pure"!   :svengo: 

I might not come out at the same place as you on how to handle that, but it's definitely just as much of a quandary or contradiction to me as it is to you, totally agree.

 

(I guess that was the feel free to open the young marriage can of worms when you get bored with the dating worms?)  :D

[regentrude]

I think this is sort of unfair. Plenty of kids these days are being raised in egalitarian households. I was raised to meet a guy someplace and split the bill because then there is no pressure of any kind on the girl. She can pay and leave. I had a date in college who had 3 Jack and cokes before dinner arrived. I was never so thankful to be able to pay my tab and drive myself home. Just because he allows her to pay her way, that doesn't mean that he is unwilling to pay.

 

I would NOT want my DD to expect the guy to pay. I would want her to pay for herself, to avoid even the hint of "owing" the guy any favors.

Frankly, I find the notion that guys should pay ridiculous in this day and age. Why??? I want my daughter to be independent. Starting off the whole relationship business with rules like this, even under the guise of courtesy and polite behavior, would not be setting the tone she wants.

This comes from the same mindset that expects men to be the breadwinners and women to remain financially dependent on their husbands. Something my DD is fiercely opposed to. So, why perpetuate these medieval attitudes in dating?

 

ETA: I still think it's sweet if the guy offers to pay. But it should neither be expected, not taken advantage of. In my universe, a girl can ask out a guy and offer to pay just as well.

[happypamama]

I voted "middle ground" -- somewhere between your last two options.  I definitely don't view dating as a casual thing.  I view it as a prelude to marriage, and I see emotional attachment as a sacred thing.  I don't want my children dating anyone that they don't see themselves marrying.  I lean more toward a courtship model, but I don't necessarily want it to be a very formal and arranged sort of courtship, if that makes sense.

 

I also voted "no age, whenever someone asks," but only because it wouldn't let me leave that one blank.  Truthfully, I don't have a set answer for that.  It'll be when the time is right, and that will depend on the particular child and the particular circumstances.

 

My parents thought maybe sixteen for one-on-one dates for me, fifteen for a group date.  But really, they didn't have a specific sort of rule about courtship or what dating was supposed to mean, or whatever, although I know they would have insisted that I only date guys they approved of.  *I* was the one saying, at 13-14, that I didn't want to do a lot of casual dating, that I didn't want to date any guy I couldn't see myself marrying.  I wasn't interested in lots of breaking up and getting together and all of that, and I didn't want to waste my time on a guy who just wasn't the kind of guy I saw myself marrying. 

 

Yeah, well, my poor parents.  Even with a teen with her head on straight (and I was, generally, not a flighty teen at all), no parent is exactly asking for their 14yo daughter to fall hard and fast for a 16yo boy.  My parents knew his parents from church; I knew him a little from a couple of school clubs that I had joined when I started high school in September.  A friend set us up for the Homecoming dance (so, October).  One dance, people; it was supposed to be one dance, as friends.  Not two years of dating, two years of long distance relationshiping when he was at college, three years of dating when we were finally at college together, a ring, fifteen years of marriage and five children. ;)

 

Needless to say, I have no preconceived notions about my children and dating.  We'll take it as it comes.

[Rosie_0801]

I read on here about the "rule" of females offering to pay their share and males declining the first few times. I guess this is so each has the opportunity to see if the other is a scrooge. Perhaps that is best judged by the language used. I dated someone who was not inclined to pay very much to begin with because it wasn't a worthwhile investment as yet...

[busymama7]

As far as my kids, I believe that teens are made for physical affection in romance. I think it's unkind and even cruel to make them live in their bodies and not express that part of themselves. I believe that they need the guidance, coaching, and mentoring of adults. I believe they need to be equipped to make wise choices with regard to their physical selves, including sex, romance, exclusivity, and romance. I also believe that making some mistakes is expected and part of the process. I hope to be (and have been) there for my kids during that process.

 

...

 

I have made sure that my children have access to birth control, more than one competent adult, and community resources.

I don't mean this to be snarky, but all birth control fails even when used properly. There is a still a risk that a baby will be made by two people not ready for that responsibility and who may not even be committed to each other (in my world its not even may not be. They aren't committed because they haven't taken that step. And a relationship is not the same thing as a marriage but I see from your post that this is not your world)

 

But you can't deny that there could still be a baby made and that could be quite unfortunate for tha innocent baby.

 

I do agree that teen bodies are designed for intimacy. I don't believe that they are incapable of self control. Especially when they are taught that a baby and/or a disease is ALWAYS a possibility. In my world I know hundreds of people who have or are waiting.

[T'smom]

The idea that a girl should have to avoid "owing" sexual favors is disgusting. It doesn't matter if the guy dropped $1,000 on a date, she does not owe him anything. The fact that it even occurs to people to think this distubs me on a very deep level. I have to admit, I didn't truly understand the term "rape culture" until now. I don't care one way or the other who pays for a date. When I was in high school, whoever had money that week, paid. If neither party had any money, they'd watch a movie at someone's house. Honestly, I went on quite a few dates with "bad boys" in high school/college and none of them ever acted like I owed them anything.

 

Maybe we (as a society) should focus on making sure our girls know that they never owe anyone anything sexually and teaching our boys that they are never owed anything sexually.

[Mrs Mungo]

I don't know what other people were thinking, but when I said "no pressure of any kind on the girl," I wasn't just thinking of sexual favors.

 

I went out with a LOT of guys in college that I barely knew. I didn't let them pick me up for the first few dates. I often paid my own way on the first few dates. I think this kept me personally out of some uncomfortable situations that didn't necessarily have anything to do with sex.

 

Eta: my post was disagreeing with someone who said that she wouldn't like it if a boy allowed her dd to pay after her dd offered.

[T'smom]

I didn't mean to respond directly to you. There were several references of "owing" or "pressure". And I certainly didn't mean to imply that anyone on here would actually think a girl DID owe a guy something. I'm just shocked that it would occur to people that other people might think that. Wow, that is worded horribly....but I can't think of the right words.

 

I agree that girls should take precautions like driving to meet a guy and always having money to get yourself out of a situation.

[OneStepAtATime]

By the way, my 13 year old DD was at a birthday party at a skate rink and an incident occurred that made me think of this thread.  A much older teenager (young adult?) approached her and asked for her phone number.  Although we should have talked about this scenario explicitly, we just hadn't, yet.  She has never been asked out by anyone and she was with family.  I was not near her.  I was talking with a family member and eating pizza with my DS while DD was skating.  I was very proud of her.  She politely refused to give him her number and explained (without telling him her age or any other specifics) that she was too young to date.  When he didn't leave her alone, she very quickly and firmly skated over next to my BIL and politely but firmly explained she was with family and was not interested in visiting with him.  BIL was freaking out and a bit shocked (he still thinks of her as a little girl, not a teenager), so it was BIL that I had to reassure that the situation was under control (once I was informed of the situation).  DD was fine with the whole thing, if a little annoyed.  :)  DS (9 years old) was also more stressed than DD so he immediately called DH (out of town) to report to him the gory details (he's very verbal) and was a little unhappy that DH wasn't flying home immediately to defend his daughter against unwanted advances.  :)

[Joanne]

I don't mean this to be snarky, but all birth control fails even when used properly. There is a still a risk that a baby will be made by two people not ready for that responsibility and who may not even be committed to each other (in my world its not even may not be. They aren't committed because they haven't taken that step. And a relationship is not the same thing as a marriage but I see from your post that this is not your world)

 

But you can't deny that there could still be a baby made and that could be quite unfortunate for tha innocent baby.

 

I do agree that teen bodies are designed for intimacy. I don't believe that they are incapable of self control. Especially when they are taught that a baby and/or a disease is ALWAYS a possibility. In my world I know hundreds of people who have or are waiting.

I am not sure I understand your point. Not being against dating does not mean being FOR intercourse during teen dating. It does not mean don't wait, don't be careful.

 

Of course conception can happen and disease transmitted.

 

I find it interesting and telling that you assume intercourse when I talked instead of affection and romance.

[SKL]

IMO dating is to get to know a prospective mate better.  No commitment and no intimacy.  I would encourage hanging out in group situations and make sure my daughter is clear on how to say "no" and how to end a date and come home when she is ready.

 

I would prefer one-on-one dating to begin as late as possible (as close to 18 or even past age 18) but realistically, I think 16 is a reasonable cut-off unless a girl has shown herself to be very responsible and the situation seems safe.  It would depend on the individuals involved.

[Haiku]

Joanne, you specifically mentioned birth control in your post. Busymama7 didn't "assume" intercourse. You brought it up.

[Joanne]

Joanne, you specifically mentioned birth control in your post. Busymama7 didn't "assume" intercourse. You brought it up.

 

 

Hm. I still don't understand the point of Busymama7's point in response to mine.

 

Yes, I mentioned my kids have access to birth control. It's my honest hope that EVERY teen does. That does not, however, mean I also provide access to safe, convienient, comfortable ways to have sex. It does not mean I *expect* them to use it, or that I communicate or encourage sex.

 

But I do believe some level of physical interaction is normal, biologically driven. And I also know teens have been having sex since teens were. ;)

 

I don't encourage or believe in early age marriages in the Western world, and I also don't believe that people are "supposed" to wait for the fun and joy of physical intimacy until well into adulthood. That means I expect there would be sexual activity of some kind between teenage and marriage age.

 

busymama7, on 05 Jan 2014 - 6:34 PM, said:

I don't mean this to be snarky, but all birth control fails even when used properly. There is a still a risk that a baby will be made by two people not ready for that responsibility and who may not even be committed to each other (in my world its not even may not be. They aren't committed because they haven't taken that step. And a relationship is not the same thing as a marriage but I see from your post that this is not your world)

 

But you can't deny that there could still be a baby made and that could be quite unfortunate for tha innocent baby.

 

I do agree that teen bodies are designed for intimacy. I don't believe that they are incapable of self control. Especially when they are taught that a baby and/or a disease is ALWAYS a possibility. In my world I know hundreds of people who have or are waiting.

I don't advocate for lack of control. In fact, I believe in very informed, very select, very well considered sexual choices. I believe that "waiting" (although not for marriage) is best. There are few mid-teens who can navigate the complicated path once intercourse or other heavy sexual activity begins. Many later teens, also.

 

I disagree that teaching about conception and disease increases waiting. (nearly) All kids are taught that. I would like to think it increases healthy, protected sex when sex does happen. Making healthy sexual choices has a complicated etiology, one not holistically covered by "wait" or educational data regarding biology and disease.

[PeterPan]

 

I don't encourage or believe in early age marriages in the Western world...

I'm just curious as to why?  :)

 

So do books like this, with their thesis that teen sex has mental health implications, not bother you?  http://www.amazon.com/dp/1595230459/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=39T3SNB2094EN&coliid=IDUV34O8DZY4

[Joanne]

I'm just curious as to why?   :)

 

So do books like this, with their thesis that teen sex has mental health implications, not bother you?  http://www.amazon.com/dp/1595230459/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=39T3SNB2094EN&coliid=IDUV34O8DZY4

 

 

That book seems to have an agenda.

 

Of course teen sex has mental health implications. So do "abstinence only" campaigns, purity rings, and the courtship model (Edited to add other things, because I truly did not mean to be snarky. Social media, porn, lunchtime, brick and mortar schools, homeschools, youth groups, Magic Card tournaments, all have mental health impact.)

 

Please know that I am not "in favor" of teen intercourse. I'm just not automatically against it and I do believe that physical interaction can be a normal, even healthy (or at least not automatically detrimental) part of being a teen and early adult.

 

As far as early marriage in the Western world, I think that career, finances, health, and areas of adult stability are at a level in which getting an education/training and growing in maturity and autonomy is the best pedagogy prior to partnering for life.

 

I don't think most Western communities and families have the necessary social and cultural support to mentor a young couple in the way needed to transcend the risk factors of the relationship failing.

[Haiku]

I thought I was very enlightened and progressive about teen sex until I had kids. Now that I have a broader view on the topic and can really understand the long-term ramifications, I am against it. I have always told my kids that sexual feelings are normal, but it is also normal to wait until you are mature enough to make a long-term commitment to someone and are ready to parent with that person to have sex. My kids have seen what it's like for kids from split families, and we have talked about the inadvisability of having children with someone you don't plan to be with. I know that everyone's experience and life circumstances are different, and I don't look down on single parents, but I encourage my kids not to risk it.

 

But we also talk about birth control, because I don't want my kids to be ignorant or too ashamed of what they are doing to use it. The conversation is basically, "We hope you will wait, but if you choose not to, here are your options." I know all too well that you can't control teen sexual behavior.

[OneStepAtATime]

Relationships are challenging and long-term dating and marriage isn't easy, no matter what age you choose it (or it chooses you).  A retired minister I am friends with once said, after spending months counseling a couple that had been married for 24 years and were in the process of separating (and eventually divorced) that in all his many years of ministry what he had finally concluded was that if most relationships are to be not just survived but thrive, before the couple even marry they need to really learn to communicate their true feelings, in a non-defensive, proactive way and to really listen when the other person tries to do the same.  They also need to learn who they are inside and to feel positive about themselves or they may project their own insecurities onto their spouse.  Over time, the relationship deteriorates not because anyone was a bad person.  They just never learned to communicate honestly, with themselves or their spouse.  I thought his words were interesting and I see a lot of truth there.

[PeterPan]

That book seems to have an agenda.

 

Of course teen sex has mental health implications. So do "abstinence only" campaigns, purity rings, and the courtship model (Edited to add other things, because I truly did not mean to be snarky. ...

 

As far as early marriage in the Western world, I think that career, finances, health, and areas of adult stability are at a level in which getting an education/training and growing in maturity and autonomy is the best pedagogy prior to partnering for life.

 

I don't think most Western communities and families have the necessary social and cultural support to mentor a young couple in the way needed to transcend the risk factors of the relationship failing.

See I think it's fascinating talking with you, because usually we agree on quite a bit, even if we disagree on a few things.  :)  Like I'm totally with you, I've been reading recently on the negative effects of purity rings, courtship as promulgated in certain circles, etc., and I see it.  I don't quite lump them together with abstinence, but I do get your point and grant 2/3 of it.  :)

 

Your point on stability is interesting and gives me something to think about.  You'll occasional find couples who are stable and well-supported in their social circle who can make it work, but I equally grant there are a lot of situations where they're not in a position to be stable and have it work.  That seems like a good way of analyzing it.  Thanks!  :)

[vonfirmath]

 

This is where I stopped thinking the whole "no dating" thing was a good idea.  Dd had been homeschooled her whole life - except for three semesters in high school.  She'd always lived at home and was so very young.  I wanted her to have a chance to be on her own - without her parents, without a serious boyfriend - so she could figure out who she was and where she was going.

 

Thankfully, dd realized she didn't want a long distance relationship about three weeks after she left home.  

 

I certainly don't want her to run around and date a bunch of people or be serious about a lot of people or be serious in a casual context, but I do hope that she makes a lot of friends and meets a bunch of new people and has time to figure herself out before she ends up in a serious relationship.

 

I have no idea how to proceed with my younger three...

 

How did "No dating" keep her from having a chance to be on her own, etc?

 

My dad taught us, growing up, that dating was only as a prelude to marriage. IE if you know absolutely you wouldn't marry the guy, you have no business dating him. If you are dating and something comes up that is a non-starter, then its your responsibility to cut it off and not keep going, etc.

 

YEt I moved out of the house, lived on my own for many years before meeting my now-husband. We were married when I was age 30.  On my 18th birthday, I got flowers long distance from a fellow in graduate school. Despite the no-dating and the fact that I was just out of the house for the first time (living in  a dorm), I knew I didn't hold marriage thoughts for this guy. I thought we were just writing back and forth because we had similar interests. (Star Trek? I think).  I cut the relationship off at that point because I didn't feel for him the way he did for me.  Over all, I might have been a bit abrupt. But I don't regret it, even with how long it took me to get married in the end. I think my dad's advice was very wise and that a lot of casual dating in high school would not have served me well.

 

I spent plenty of time with kids of both genders in high school -- mostly through church but sometimes through school too (I was in band, lit mag, etc). But there was no dating pressure. I was free to be myself and enjoy being with them.

 

[Heather in Neverland]

When my ds starts dating he will most definitely pay for the dates. That's just how we roll in this family.

 

Because we live in a foreign country where he cannot get a driver's license or a work permit to have a job, he will not be dating until after he graduates. No license+ no car+ no job= no dating. Easy Peasy.