Talk to me about Math curriculums

[elliotterae]

This is our first year homeschooling, One of the main reasons I finally decided to go ahead and teach them from home was how badly my oldest was doing with math, She is in 5th grade this year and while she is doing fantastic in language arts, she really needed to back up and firm up her math.  

 

(Extra background info - her public school did not believe in grades. You either mastered a topic or not. Which I thought I liked at the time. She did not ever have any math homework and she got checks (mastered the topic) in every math category. I was the class parent her fourth grade year and at the school at least twice a week and never was I told she was doing so poorly in math. I should have realized it sooner and I feel like a failure for not picking up on it but I just was trusting the school system. Over summer break I realized she didnt know her multiplication or division tables or many basic math concepts.)

 

The problem is, I think I am doing it all wrong. After reading several reviews, I was so proud of myself that I found and was going to teach them using Singapore. I stared in July by having her take the SM placement test and she just sat and cried when I tried to have her do the 4A  test. So I ordered 3A, thinking we'd just move quickly. We got through the first few pages covering mental calculation of  addition and she seemed fine. Then it introduced another way to do the mental calculations, and another way, and she just broke down crying and then couldn't seem to manage to even remember the first way after getting so confused about it. Ok. We put those books away and I ordered Saxon math 3. We are doing ok with it but it seems to easy. My younger daughter is doing the same math and she would be in second grade. They have very different strengths.  I don't feel like I can progress fast enough with the Saxon to get her caught up  before high school. I have my doubts about her ever being in a STEM program and I am not sure I ever want to try to teach her Calculus but I also don't want to take forever getting to Pre-Algebra because we have already lost so much time and so much can change down the road.

 

I'm considering Math U See.  My concern is that she really isn't strong in even multi-digit addition and subtraction, and I am afraid I would need to go back to Beta. I don't believe she has any learning issues, I think she just was getting passed by in math. Our school district focused on accelerated reader goals and that was all they seemed concerned about.

 

I would really appreciate any helpful suggestions or ideas. Based on all that rambling, what curriculum would you recommend for math? What would you do to speed up her catch up progress?

 

[Alte Veste Academy]

In your shoes, I would buy the Math Mammoth 1-6 package (it is cheap, cheap!), not let her see the grade level distinctions, just give her sheets to do. I would have her start at hyper speed by doing each review. When she starts to stumble, I would start working through it regularly, skipping only when something is clearly mastered. Math Mammoth is good, solid math, similar to Singapore but more incremental and IMO a cinch to accelerate. 

[morningcoffee]

:grouphug: Please don't blame yourself for your daughter's math problems. You are doing a wonderful thing for her by making sure she has a solid understanding of the basics and by acknowledging her weak areas.  

 

You mentioned that she has trouble with multi digit addition and subtraction. Do you think she understands place value?  

 

I would recommend that you continue to research math u see. It is very easy to accelerate once the student has shown mastery of a topic. It is very solid in teaching place value. Finally, the levels aren't labelled by grades so your daughter won't be have to be reminded that she is working at a lower level every time she looks at her textbook. (We know it doesn't matter but I can understand that it could upset some students). There are placement tests on their website. 

http://www.mathusee.com/parents/getting-started/placement/placement-tests/

 

You could also look at Math Mammoth as the pp suggested. You can buy individual topics which may suit your particular circumstance. 

http://www.mathmammoth.com/blue-series.php

 

HTH

 

 

[Hunter]

You are going to get a LOT of conflicting advice. :lol: No matter whether it is PS, private school, homeschool or even international schools, there is so much THEORY about teaching math.

 

Saxon can seem easy for the first half of the book, because there is so much review. But then it picks up steam and can be overwhelming. Because Saxon is juggling so many topics, it has to be easy. It has to! If it's not easy at the beginning of the books, and the student is not getting almost perfect scores at the beginning of the books, the student is placed too high. They need the foundation of that overlearning in the beginning chapters to support the later chapters.

 

Each curriculum is very different. There is all that theory. Sigh! And some are far more advanced than others when comparing grades. Or not more advanced, but just introduce different topics at different times. And some curricula are so much wider or narrower than others. Or use really unique and unfamiliar vocabulary or methods.

 

Over the decades I have seen more and more money and stress and time directed at math, without greater student achievement. Whatever you choose, don't let the current math environment overwhelm you. Math is just math. It's not the end of the world, even though it can seem like it is. I agree with your school, that literacy is the priority.

 

I tend to advocate less is more with math. Placing students lower, and not in one of the "best" curricula, unless mom is excited and prepared to teach it. The Tortoise and the Hare is my advice.

[ByGrace3]

In your shoes, I would buy the Math Mammoth 1-6 package (it is cheap, cheap!), not let her see the grade level distinctions, just give her sheets to do. I would have her start at hyper speed by doing each review. When she starts to stumble, I would start working through it regularly, skipping only when something is clearly mastered. Math Mammoth is good, solid math, similar to Singapore but more incremental and IMO a cinch to accelerate.

Yup. This.

 

And hugs. At least you noticed and are doing something about it. Don't beat yourself up about it.

[Leav97]

In your shoes, I would buy the Math Mammoth 1-6 package (it is cheap, cheap!), not let her see the grade level distinctions, just give her sheets to do. I would have her start at hyper speed by doing each review. When she starts to stumble, I would start working through it regularly, skipping only when something is clearly mastered. Math Mammoth is good, solid math, similar to Singapore but more incremental and IMO a cinch to accelerate. 

 

:iagree:

 

Start with the end of chapter reviews.  When she can't pass the end of chapter reviews, cover those chapters doing about 50 % of the problems.  If she doesn't get most of the 50% correct, recover the material and do the other 50%.

[Ellie]

:grouphug:

 

Your dd is just 11. I wouldn't be worried about getting her through high school math at this point.

 

Unless you are convinced that your dd needs manipulatives (and not all children do), I wouldn't choose a product that uses them heavily. Neither of my dds (nor I, for that matter) would have been happy campers if they'd had to use any kind of manipulatives on a regular basis.

 

I like Saxon. There's no good reason not to at least have your dd take the placement test and see how she does.

 

And here's another idea: Start back at the beginning with New Franklin Arithmetic. Besides the fact that it's free, it does quite an amazing job of teaching basic arithmetic while moving along much faster than most other publishers.

[MotherOfBoys]

Saxon is our constant but we also use math mammoth. Keep in mind that we use saxon second grade but math mammoth first and second because saxon seemed easier than math mammoth, or behind (I hesitate to use that word though) based on their set up and priority. But all get you to the same ending, imo. MM in the electronic version is so cheap. I bought 1-6 all at once. 

 

Also, did you know that saxon changes authors and styles in fourth grade? The new third grade intermediate series is more like the rest of the saxon series by John saxon.

 

Lastly, I've read on hear that kids might need a transition time from ps to hs. Some of her frustration might be because of that. She has to answer every question in hs herself where as in ps the teacher would skip to another student if one didn't know the answer. Less pressure, I think.

[kiana]

Saxon and Singapore are not really comparable in scope and sequence. Did you give your DD the Saxon upper grades placement test before ordering? If she is doing fine but it seems way too easy, it may be a good fit but she may simply be misplaced.

[Lolly]

Question: Is it just her basic facts holding her back? If so, work on those separately. Choose a basic math book (I really, really like Rod and Staff, but others are just as good/I have found that books that show multiple ways to approach problems can cause some kids to just freak out when more mathematically inclined students thrive on them), and work through it allowing her to use charts for basic facts. Have a separate time for learning basic facts. There are many different methods you can use to do that from flash cards and computer programs to writing out the families over and over.  Math repeats, and repeats, and repeats itself.

 

Now for the controversial part...Some kids do great learning math theory. Some don't. Yes, they remember it better if they actually understand what is going on, but some kid's brains just don't grasp it no matter how it is presented. Some do better just...gasp...learning the algorithms. The amazing thing is that those same kids may have everything just click one day. Some kids pick up their basic facts with ease. Some with a lot of work. And some just. can't. get. it. That doesn't mean they cannot progress with math. Allowing those students to continue to progress with theory while relying on tables/charts for the basic facts keeps them from falling horribly behind. (And oddly enough, sometimes using those tables allows them to actually learn the basic facts by practicing them over and over without having to just guess. It seems practicing using the wrong answers can be a bad thing.) Some kids who cannot learn their basic facts can even learn/do algebra if they are allowed to use a calculator. 

 

Now, deep breath, elementary math can be learned in a very short time. There really isn't all that much to it. But, for some people it is really hard. 

[Farrar]

In your shoes, I would buy the Math Mammoth 1-6 package (it is cheap, cheap!), not let her see the grade level distinctions, just give her sheets to do. I would have her start at hyper speed by doing each review. When she starts to stumble, I would start working through it regularly, skipping only when something is clearly mastered. Math Mammoth is good, solid math, similar to Singapore but more incremental and IMO a cinch to accelerate. 

 

I think this is one possible good way to do it.  And if you go the MM route, I would say consider getting the dark blue series since it will not have grade levels on it and will target specific topics, allowing you to skip things that you'd rather just leave for later, when you're on more solid footing (like geometry topics, for example) and focus on the skills she's lacking and not the ones she isn't.  I totally agree that MM is similar to Singapore but more incremental with a ton more scaffolding.

 

BUT...  I also think it's possible this won't work at all.  And the reason is that the OP said that her dd freaked out when SM introduced a million ways to do something.  Well, MM also introduces a million ways to do something.  A lot of it is in service of building understanding and the "different ways" are really intermediate steps toward understanding.  But...  I think this is also the thing that turns kids off of MM.  I think those steps really help some kids and really make others even more confused.

 

So...  two other possible routes...  Get Teaching Textbooks.  It's simpler, it's pared down, it's on the easy side.  It's not necessarily a program for a future STEM major, as you say, been a life saver for a number of families with kids who are struggling.  There may be other programs in this category as well.

 

Another thing I might suggest is to consider instead of MUS, doing Miquon.  Miquon is usually used with younger kids, but I think there's nothing better to instill concepts in kids.  You'd use it alongside something else.  It's very not intimidating (ETA: I realized this is a funny statement...  it's not very intimidating to the kids with nice clean pages and using easy problems to teach deep concepts, but it is intimidating to some parents because it looks "weird."  So, something to think about...).  You'd skip the first book, but get the full set and a box of Cuisenaire rods and let your dd work through it by the thread system, not page by page.  You'd let her pick and choose what she wants to learn.  Some of it would be easy and some of it would hopefully help crystalize concepts for her.

 

And that gets to another idea, which is that if math is all tears and toil in your house, consider finding something - anything - that is math that will be fun.  Maybe get some games and set aside a math game time a few times a week (we recently got Mythmatical Battles which is good for times tables, but there's a million options).  Or read a "fun" math book like Penrose or The Number Devil or a Murderous Maths book.  And do that alongside whatever you pick.

[Meriwether]

I would give the Saxon placement test. Saxon 3 is probably well below her skill level.

[Hunter]

Is it regular Saxon 3 or Saxon 3 Intermediate? They are very different curricula.

[fourisenough]

Saxon is not a good curriculum if what you're trying to do is go back to where she is at and fill in gaps to get her up to grade level with a rock solid understanding.

 

If I were in your shoes, I'd go with Math Mammoth.  It is cheap, thorough, and very, very good instruction. 

 

After re-introducing the operations via MM, I'd really have her take the time to learn her facts.  Xtramath.org would be my vote for this purpose. 

[EKS]

I wouldn't completely discount Singapore just yet.  It is an excellent program, but if you want to go that route you should should start with level 1 (I'm not kidding).  You should also be sure that you understand how to teach the "Singapore way."  You can do this by reading ahead in the Home Instructor Guides and/or by reading the book Elementary Mathematics for Teachers.

 

Another option would be to use Math U See.  Give your daughter the placement test starting with the test for Alpha.  Follow the administration instructions exactly (meaning don't just hand the test to her--you need to watch her to see where things get hard).  I put a kid who was halfway through Saxon 7/6 into MUS Beta and it was exactly the right placement.  He ended up zooming though the first half or two-thirds of each book and then slowing down for the new stuff.  By the time he got through Zeta his arithmetic was solid.  For him, the process took six months but you would want to take whatever time your daughter needs.

[Ellie]

Saxon is not a good curriculum if what you're trying to do is go back to where she is at and fill in gaps to get her up to grade level with a rock solid understanding.

 

 

I disagree, especially if the child can start with Math 54 or 65, which the OP's dc would probably be able to do. Starting with Math 54 (which only requires a knowledge of basic arithmetic and multiplication up through the 5's), would absolutely fill in "gaps" and bring the dc up to grade level with a rock-solid understanding.

[Alte Veste Academy]

OP said that her dd freaked out when SM introduced a million ways to do something. Well, MM also introduces a million ways to do something. A lot of it is in service of building understanding and the "different ways" are really intermediate steps toward understanding. But... I think this is also the thing that turns kids off of MM. I think those steps really help some kids and really make others even more confused.

This is true. I just wonder if part of the problem with that is the shock of being asked to do that right off the bat at a higher level (3rd compared to the baby step pace of starting with the easier math in 1st). Whenever something is tricky here, we take things back to the easiest numbers we can so that demonstrating the concept does not get overshadowed by the challenge of bigger numbers, more complexity, multi-step problems, etc.

 

But yes, the OP will have to discern whether or not her DD's challenge was mostly the number of techniques or overall insecurity with a new style or frustrated embarrassment because she felt she should have had it right away because she was at a higher grade level... It could be so many things.

 

If she responds well to manipulatives, I agree with the suggestion of Miquon. It worked beautifully for two of my kids.

[Momling]

Also, it may be a developmental thing. Fifth grade was the year that my daughter was incredibly moody. In math, she got frustrated so easily and had no ability to persevere in math. It might be that no curriculum you choose is going to make her happy about doing math. In your place, I would go back to Singapore or else get the math mammoth (which is useful to have on hand anyway) and just persevere, slow and steady, every day. In addition, have her play Timez Attack on the computer. It painlessly helped my kids with their multiplication.

[WahM]

I also wouldn't take Singapore math off the table just yet. I would take a break from it and start at the begining teaching her the basic math facts the "Singapore way" once those are solid and she has a good grasp of how to do move her into the math grade that is more on her level.

[Crimson Wife]

The Right Start tutoring program might be really good if she doesn't have a good grasp of place value. Another advantage is that it doesn't have grade labels. http://store.rightstartmath.com/alabacuspacket.aspx

[KarenNC]

I have a kid who is great in the humanities, but finds math and science much more challenging. She is basically my husband made over in this respect, while I am a more math/science type of person, which has sometimes complicated our homeschooling journey. I started with Singapore, which I loved (and still like quite a lot), from earlybird until I finally threw in the towel in 4A after literally years of her crying and struggling with the curriculum. It was at this point, after homeschooling for years, that I finally learned the lesson that just because I like a curriculum doesn't mean it will always be a good fit for my daughter.

 

We switched to Saxon and it's been overall a great improvement. We had bumps at the beginning as I had her incorrectly placed (a little too highly). The most valuable thing I think I did was to contact Art Reed, http://www.homeschoolwithsaxon.com/. I sent him an email and he responded quickly asking for my phone number, as he has free long distance. He did a 20-30 min free phone consultation with me and helped me figure out what to do, no pressure to buy anything at all. In our case, we had to drop back a level from where we were and test through, stopping to fill in any holes we found (not unexpected when switching curricua). It's been reasonably smooth since that point (though she still doesn't love math!). It's possible that your daughter might be helped by testing through to get to where she needs to be.

 

I also found that my daughter wasn't solid on her math facts at about the same age as yours. The hands-down most helpful thing for us was to use xtramath.org, which is free. I substituted this for the timed basic fact sheets in Saxon (though we continued to do the Saxon sheets for things like measurements, fractions, equivalents, etc).

 

Good luck!

[Farrar]

You are going to get a LOT of conflicting advice. :lol: No matter whether it is PS, private school, homeschool or even international schools, there is so much THEORY about teaching math.

 

I know, right?  We're probably making the poor mom's head spin with all our conflicting advice.  Try MM!  Don't give up on Singapore!  Look at Right Start!  Saxon is good!  Saxon is bad!  No, it's good!  Use Xtramath to just teach facts!  Try more manipulatives!  We're terrible at this math advice thing.  :lol:

[elliotterae]

Oh my, thank you so much for all the comments already. Each comment I read, I think, " Oh that's a good idea, I'll get/do that." Then I read the next comment with another idea and a different approach and I think, "Oh, well, maybe I'll do that instead"

 

I did not do the Saxon placement test. I figured I knew I could use the 3 for my 2nd grader anyway and when I looked through it I noticed that about half way through it looked like things my DD needed to refresh as well. Another thing that may be pertinent  is that DD is actually only 10. She probably should be in 4th grade for her actual age, she barely made the cut off when she started Kindergarten and was actually 4yrs the first 2+ months of school. So she was the youngest in her grade and I have an extra year to play with if needed. I think all of the suggestions seem better than the current route of plugging along in this book. 

 

I'm thinking maybe I will print out assessment tests for all of the programs. Saxon, Math U See, Math Mammoth, Teaching Textbooks. Miquon if it has one. Then I am leaning toward just spending next week going over placement tests so I can get a feel for which ones seems to stress her least and get a better grasp of what it is exactly that she needs.Does that sound like a good idea or is it overkill and I should pick a program first?  I was going on this assumption that if she was that confused with 3 ways to mentally add 32 + 48, she must need to start completely over. I was also thinking I wanted something super easy to build confidence again before I moved her into a more difficult area. I don't want to go back to Singapore right now, maybe a bit later, but right now I think it shocked her self-esteem so much that just seeing the book would stress her out before we started. I am kind of hoping Teaching Textbooks isn't the answer because I'd like to not spend quite that much, but of course I will if it is really superior for her.

Another thing I am thinking is that for now, my DD8 (would have been in second grade in PS) is doing great with this Saxon3. Someone mentioned there being two different Saxon 3 books. This one just says "Saxon Math 3, an Incremental Development". I am noticing though that having them in the same book isn't good for DD10. I overheard her telling someone at church that she was "so dumb she is taking the same math as her little sister". So I need to get two different programs so that isn't in her mind.

 

I actually really love the idea of letting her progress in theory with charts and practice math facts at another time. That might give her more sense of accomplishment, So I am hoping if I do sit down and do a bunch of placement tests, I find we can move her a bit more forward. I just want her to have a good math base before we get to far. 

[elliotterae]

We are using xtramath. She has been on the first addition phase for months and never did manage 100% in the 3 sec time limit so I finally moved her to the subtraction /addition phase. I was starting to wonder if it was working because we seemed to be at like 92 percent with no progress for ages.

 

[Lolly]

Oh my, thank you so much for all the comments already. Each comment I read, I think, " Oh that's a good idea, I'll get/do that." Then I read the next comment with another idea and a different approach and I think, "Oh, well, maybe I'll do that instead"

 

I did not do the Saxon placement test. I figured I knew I could use the 3 for my 2nd grader anyway and when I looked through it I noticed that about half way through it looked like things my DD needed to refresh as well. Another thing that may be pertinent  is that DD is actually only 10. She probably should be in 4th grade for her actual age, she barely made the cut off when she started Kindergarten and was actually 4yrs the first 2+ months of school. So she was the youngest in her grade and I have an extra year to play with if needed. I think all of the suggestions seem better than the current route of plugging along in this book. 

 

I'm thinking maybe I will print out assessment tests for all of the programs. Saxon, Math U See, Math Mammoth, Teaching Textbooks. Miquon if it has one. Then I am leaning toward just spending next week going over placement tests so I can get a feel for which ones seems to stress her least and get a better grasp of what it is exactly that she needs.Does that sound like a good idea or is it overkill and I should pick a program first?  I was going on this assumption that if she was that confused with 3 ways to mentally add 32 + 48, she must need to start completely over. I was also thinking I wanted something super easy to build confidence again before I moved her into a more difficult area. I don't want to go back to Singapore right now, maybe a bit later, but right now I think it shocked her self-esteem so much that just seeing the book would stress her out before we started. I am kind of hoping Teaching Textbooks isn't the answer because I'd like to not spend quite that much, but of course I will if it is really superior for her.

Another thing I am thinking is that for now, my DD8 (would have been in second grade in PS) is doing great with this Saxon3. Someone mentioned there being two different Saxon 3 books. This one just says "Saxon Math 3, an Incremental Development". I am noticing though that having them in the same book isn't good for DD10. I overheard her telling someone at church that she was "so dumb she is taking the same math as her little sister". So I need to get two different programs so that isn't in her mind.

 

I actually really love the idea of letting her progress in theory with charts and practice math facts at another time. That might give her more sense of accomplishment, So I am hoping if I do sit down and do a bunch of placement tests, I find we can move her a bit more forward. I just want her to have a good math base before we get to far. 

 

I think a week of assessment tests would be fine. Just make sure she knows that is what is going on/she isn't expected to know it all! My kids do fine all assessments to be pretty nerve wracking. I have too many perfectionists. I would definitely not have the two siblings in the same text. Btdt. 

[kiana]

Yeah, hearing what she says I would move her ASAP into a different level or a different program. She needs to get out of this "I'm dumb" asap. I would be really surprised if she couldn't handle 54 -- I'd still do the placement test to see how she does.

[dereksurfs]

I know, right?  We're probably making the poor mom's head spin with all our conflicting advice.  Try MM!  Don't give up on Singapore!  Look at Right Start!  Saxon is good!  Saxon is bad!  No, it's good!  Use Xtramath to just teach facts!  Try more manipulatives!  We're terrible at this math advice thing.  :lol:

 

Yes, I think this is part of the dilemma as each have their own preferences which have worked out well in their own experience.  But that experience may be contrary to what works best for the OP.  So the moral of the story which I've discovered is to use what works best for your child while considering others' experiences.  No one knows your daughter like you do and therefore you are in the best position to tailor a math program to her learning style, ability, level of comfort, etc...  There are fans and detractors for each program including Saxon, MUS, SM, MM, CLE, et al.  

 

What I recommend is not only doing placement tests from the different programs but demo'ing them out *with* her.  Allow her to participate in the selection process which will also give her a greater sense of ownership once something is selected.  Also I do not recommend buying 6 years of any program.  Rather buy the first book of a few and see how they go.  Then after finding a *good fit* buying a whole series will make more sense.  One of the things to avoid is trying to fit a round peg in a square hole no matter how much others may swear by a program for their own children.  

 

Building a child's confidence and self-esteem in their math skills is as important or more than utilizing the best rated/most popular curriculum de jour.  The curriculum is only as good as it helps your child develop solid math skills.  So if SM isn't doing that, for example, look elsewhere as you have. 

[EKS]

I was going on this assumption that if she was that confused with 3 ways to mentally add 32 + 48, she must need to start completely over. I was also thinking I wanted something super easy to build confidence again before I moved her into a more difficult area.

 

I'm guessing that she may not understand place value.  If so, moving back to Beta in MUS would work wonders.  The great thing about MUS is that it is easy to customize the pace.  So, when I moved my son back to Beta (from Saxon 7/6), for the parts he was solid on, we moved quickly, sometimes covering five lessons in a day (for example, the lessons in Gamma on multiplication facts, which he knew), but then when we got to things he was shaky on, we slowed way down.  The way MUS is set up, it makes it seamless to do this. 

 

I also like that the books use Greek letters rather than numbers or some other system that gives away grade level.  It is great for this sort of situation.

[Farrar]

A week of assessments would kill my kids.  One of them anyway.  If you think it might be too much for her as well, maybe have her do an easy example page from the various curricula - something you know she can basically do.  And have her pick one or two to do the assessments for.

 

I agree that we're all giving our vision based on our own experience, but I did throw out the idea of Teaching Textbooks, which would never be right for my boys, because it sounded like it might work for the OP.  The good thing is that there are a million elementary math programs and most of the ones you'll hear suggested here are pretty good.

[OneStepAtATime]

Maybe read How the Brain Learns Mathematics by David Sousa and some of the Ronit Bird books on ways to help when someone struggles with certain aspects of math?  It might help to get a better understanding of how different people learn math overall, and give you a better way to assess which curriculum might work for your child Instead of just switching curriculum right off the bat.  

 

I did curriculum hopping for quite a while before finally trying to figure out what the real disconnect was and why she wasn't functioning well in certain areas.  It did help. (DD is 13 and we also didn't realize how far behind she was until the end of 5th grade...)

[Miss Tick]

I won't wade in with my own redundant recommendations based on my personal experience, BUT, I want to encourage you not focus right now on catching up. Spend some time figuring out a math program(s) that will work, and then follow your routine consistently until April-ish. Then, if she is no longer crying whenever you pull out the math book, start to plot a course forward. We continue math 3 days a week through the summer and get a surprising amount done.

[dragons in the flower bed]

If it is working, and feels easy, I would keep going with Saxon. Slow and steady truly does win the race. Though she may be moving slowly now, as she gets more confident (and she will if it continues to feel easy), she will be able to do more work in a day. You can continue schooling, just math, through summers, too. Homeschooling is more efficient; she'll likely catch up. But even if she doesn't, she's more likely to enjoy a STEM career if she has to take calculus in college for the first time but feels like she can because math is easy. If she was stressed through a rush job math program so she could get calculus on that high school transcript, she'll run from math once it's up to her what to do. Don't be afraid to go slowly and be patient. The value of a math curriculum that feels easy can not be overstated.

[dereksurfs]

A week of assessments would kill my kids.  One of them anyway.  If you think it might be too much for her as well, maybe have her do an easy example page from the various curricula - something you know she can basically do.  And have her pick one or two to do the assessments for.

 

I agree that we're all giving our vision based on our own experience, but I did throw out the idea of Teaching Textbooks, which would never be right for my boys, because it sounded like it might work for the OP.  The good thing is that there are a million elementary math programs and most of the ones you'll hear suggested here are pretty good.

 

I was thinking the same thing.  It's hard not to overwhelm a child with so many tests.  A lower stress approach would be to simply try various samples to help introduce new curricula under consideration.  Then a placement test can be given once things get narrowed down a bit.  Building her confidence back up at this stage is key.

[Hunter]

I know, right?  We're probably making the poor mom's head spin with all our conflicting advice.  Try MM!  Don't give up on Singapore!  Look at Right Start!  Saxon is good!  Saxon is bad!  No, it's good!  Use Xtramath to just teach facts!  Try more manipulatives!  We're terrible at this math advice thing.  :lol:

  

I disagree, especially if the child can start with Math 54 or 65, which the OP's dc would probably be able to do. Starting with Math 54 (which only requires a knowledge of basic arithmetic and multiplication up through the 5's), would absolutely fill in "gaps" and bring the dc up to grade level with a rock-solid understanding.

I wanted to refrain from giving yet one more suggestion of actual curricula, but I do have an opinion after reading your last couple posts.

 

You have Saxon 3, and you like it for your younger child. For the older one, I'd test her and see if 54 is a good fit. If it's too hard, I'd work on the areas she is weak in, one at a time, with materials designed to shore up that weakness. Then I'd put her in 54. Or I might buy Saxon 3 intermediate, so she could have her own book, different from her sister. Saxon 3 intermediate is more like Saxon 54 and doesn't use manipulatives. It has a more grown up feel to it.

 

Saxon 54 is directed at the average 5th grader and the gifted 4th grader. Your daughter is more of a 4th grader than a 5th grader, and needs some remediation. Remediation for a 4th grader would be Saxon 3 intermediate, or the Saxon 3 you already have.

 

You will see people here, and web sites, that list and use 54 as for 3rd graders, but that is not what the book was originally designed for. Each edition of Saxon 54 gets harder, but people are using it earlier and earlier. Don't let that throw you. Yes, if people are going to fit in multiple years of calculus during high school, they do need to accelerate the primary years, but not all children are developmentally ready to use a 5th grade book in the 3rd grade, especially a 5th grade book that has been made harder with each edition.

 

I hope I'm not confusing you more.

 

Whatever you do, don't over worry about it. Math is so important, but not a crisis either. It can seem that way, though. I cried myself to sleep on more than one occasion, worrying about math, when my boys were in high school.

[rebbyribs]

We are using xtramath. She has been on the first addition phase for months and never did manage 100% in the 3 sec time limit so I finally moved her to the subtraction /addition phase. I was starting to wonder if it was working because we seemed to be at like 92 percent with no progress for ages.

 

Xtramath has an option to switch the time limit to 6 seconds rather than 3.  I use that option with my kiddo because she hasn't had all that much practice with typing, and it helps keep her from feeling too flustered by Xtramath. 

[MotherOfBoys]

I would start with saxon placement test. Your already familiar with saxon and tweaking can be easier, take less time, and cheaper than a total switch. Plus, I agree with above posts that a week of tests is nerve racking.

[leeannpal]

I have an 11 year old 5th grade daughter, and we had much the same issue as you when we started homeschooling this year. We ended up with Horizons Math, and my daughter really likes it. It is a spiral rogram which works well for her. She also uses Khan Academy and Xtramath for extra practice. She likes that it is a workbook format that she can write in. Good luck on finding a math curriculum that works for your daughter.

[Shellydon]

We love BOTH Math Mammoth and Math U See.  In your shoes, I would probably get Beta MUS and Gamma and go through it. Both strong emphasize memorization of math facts.  After those were mastered, I would move on to Math Mammoth 4.

[shinyhappypeople]

Oh my, thank you so much for all the comments already. Each comment I read, I think, " Oh that's a good idea, I'll get/do that." Then I read the next comment with another idea and a different approach and I think, "Oh, well, maybe I'll do that instead"

 

I did not do the Saxon placement test. I figured I knew I could use the 3 for my 2nd grader anyway and when I looked through it I noticed that about half way through it looked like things my DD needed to refresh as well. Another thing that may be pertinent  is that DD is actually only 10. She probably should be in 4th grade for her actual age, she barely made the cut off when she started Kindergarten and was actually 4yrs the first 2+ months of school. So she was the youngest in her grade and I have an extra year to play with if needed. I think all of the suggestions seem better than the current route of plugging along in this book. 

 

I'm thinking maybe I will print out assessment tests for all of the programs. Saxon, Math U See, Math Mammoth, Teaching Textbooks. Miquon if it has one. Then I am leaning toward just spending next week going over placement tests so I can get a feel for which ones seems to stress her least and get a better grasp of what it is exactly that she needs.Does that sound like a good idea or is it overkill and I should pick a program first?  I was going on this assumption that if she was that confused with 3 ways to mentally add 32 + 48, she must need to start completely over. I was also thinking I wanted something super easy to build confidence again before I moved her into a more difficult area. I don't want to go back to Singapore right now, maybe a bit later, but right now I think it shocked her self-esteem so much that just seeing the book would stress her out before we started. I am kind of hoping Teaching Textbooks isn't the answer because I'd like to not spend quite that much, but of course I will if it is really superior for her.

Another thing I am thinking is that for now, my DD8 (would have been in second grade in PS) is doing great with this Saxon3. Someone mentioned there being two different Saxon 3 books. This one just says "Saxon Math 3, an Incremental Development". I am noticing though that having them in the same book isn't good for DD10. I overheard her telling someone at church that she was "so dumb she is taking the same math as her little sister". So I need to get two different programs so that isn't in her mind.

 

I actually really love the idea of letting her progress in theory with charts and practice math facts at another time. That might give her more sense of accomplishment, So I am hoping if I do sit down and do a bunch of placement tests, I find we can move her a bit more forward. I just want her to have a good math base before we get to far. 

 

You have described my older DD (also a 10 yo "5th grader").  She has a fall birthday and is working solidly at a 4th grade level.  Singapore made her *weep.*  Math Mammoth (which I loved) had the same effect.  She's now using Teaching Textbooks, which she LOVES.  We just finished TT3 and she'll do most of TT4 before we break for summer.  If you go the TT route, you'll need to do additional facts practice on the side, so just know that going in.  This particular DD *loathes* the pressure of timed tests, so we quit xtramath and I have her play games on multiplication.com.

[Tiramisu]

We are using xtramath. She has been on the first addition phase for months and never did manage 100% in the 3 sec time limit so I finally moved her to the subtraction /addition phase. I was starting to wonder if it was working because we seemed to be at like 92 percent with no progress for ages.

 

Well. This might not mean anything, but it could. If that makes sense. I have one dd who had a hard time learning math facts and I had another who never forgot a math fact after seeing it once. But both were always on the slow side with speed drills. What they have in common is a visual-motor weakness. Little issues with their eye-brain connection and motor planning slows them down. So if you say that your dd has been working on first phase addition for months and not managing 100%, I honestly don't think it's her math skills, I think there's something else slowing her down. And it has nothing at all to do with her intelligence.

 

Maybe read How the Brain Learns Mathematics by David Sousa and some of the Ronit Bird books on ways to help when someone struggles with certain aspects of math?  It might help to get a better understanding of how different people learn math overall, and give you a better way to assess which curriculum might work for your child Instead of just switching curriculum right off the bat.  

 

I did curriculum hopping for quite a while before finally trying to figure out what the real disconnect was and why she wasn't functioning well in certain areas.  It did help. (DD is 13 and we also didn't realize how far behind she was until the end of 5th grade...)

 

This is a good suggestion. I think so because you said your dd freaked out with the different ways of Singapore. As another PP also mentioned, different ways are just not good for some thinkers. 

 

I'll also add that if there is a minor processing issue going on, it can tax her system enough that throwing another way of doing a problem at her will make her meltdown. I'd stick with Saxon for now, possibly moving up a level for the sake of her feelings of comparison with her sister. I agree with the other PP's that Saxon is a good program for catching gaps. Sit beside her while she does math and see exactly what her problems are. I also think it would be VERY worthwhile to scribe for her and see if it makes math faster but either lightening her mental processing load or the motor load. That would also give you a clue of whether or not there's an underlying issue. 

 

FWIW, she's getting 92% so I don't think there's a major underlying problem, but I'd bet something is bogging her down.

[elliotterae]

I'm going to do the Saxon placement test for sure and then I will have her start looking over the different options with me. Giving her some say so in the choice was mentioned, and I am not sure why I hadn't given that any thought. We tend to think that when they are this age, "Mommy knows best" I guess, but you are right, it would probably help her have a bigger sense of accomplishment.  I want to move her somewhere, even if just up a level in Saxon or if it stays the same level in another book, if nothing else, so that I can tell her she is ready to move on. I hate having her think she is a not smart and that is why she is in the same book as her 2nd grade sister.

Im going to go ahead and print out all the placement tests and look over them, then show them to her and show her the demos for the programs. Let her decided which one she thinks appeals to her most and take all of that into consideration.  I'm also ordering How the Brain Learns Mathematics. I figure that can't hurt. 

 

Thank you for all the help, recommendations, and reassurance, I'll let you know what we settled on in a week or so.

[elliotterae]

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.Wow, this is a lot of duplicate posts, I am so sorry. I cant find a delete option but I am trying to get them all as close to removed as possible,

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Sorry, every time I try to post from this Chromebook of my DH, it seems to double-triple post things. I'm not sure how I do it.