Punishment input for cheating student (second offense)

[starwarsmomma]

Ok, 8th grader son got caught cheating AGAIN on math -- on his online math classes.  Logged in AS ME, got the answers, then logged himself in and put the answers in.  Denied it until I showed him screenshots of the login times/dates (which I was able to prove I was not even on the computer during those days/times).

 

This isn't about the math-- obviously he cheated because he doesn't know the material and didnt ask for help-- I am addressing that issue separately.

 

This is about the punishment and Christmas. 

 

I'm kinda in a hard place and would love your thoughts/input-- even your creativity if you have ideas.

 

This is his second offense of getting caught cheating on math in 3 weeks.  We had warned him last time that it would be SEVERE if he EVER got caught cheating again.  Hubby said the punishment would be triple.  We made a huge deal out of it the first time...  so this was a big surprise....  

 

He's already going to be grounded until New Years Day (no friends which is a huge deal to him)

He's losing his phone until then too.

Hubby is going to turn off his internet and take away his kindle as part of all that.

No xbox either.

probably all those until new years.

Maybe extra report or something... I'd like to get creative.

Hubby has some chores he will be doing, maybe.

 

The PROBLEM is Christmas gifts.  He's getting some xbox games for Christmas.  The weather is supposed to be horrible, my inlaws will be here and we'll all be stuck in the house.  I feel bad that he would be grounded from his own christmas gifts for christmas with nothing else to do....  Especially when the inlaws bought him 2 games for xbox.  They wont get to see him play the games they bought him....

 

Maybe I'm being too soft for considering letting him play with xbox for Christmas?  I mean-- Cheating for a 2nd time is a HUGE deal to me and my husband.  I'd rather him fail and try his hardest than get an A+ and cheat.  He knows this and cheated anyway.  Never once asked for help.

 

So thoughts?

 

He's my normally honest kid.  This is very hard for me to think of how to handle this.

 

Creative input?

 

 

[kiana]

Yeah, sorry, but I don't see anything unfair about being grounded from your Christmas presents for cheating. He can play with them after Christmas.

 

But why does he have your login for the online course?

[73349]

I'd probably get out card games or board games to play with the in-laws instead, and make him wait to use his new games until the new year. It's only a week, but I think since it's not his first offense, I'd want to be clear about making no exceptions.

[starwarsmomma]

he saw me log in one day and memorized my password.  Kid is smarter than me when it comes to that.  LOL

 

Good idea on board games.  We have a ton.

 

Thanks for the reassurance.  I want this lesson to stick.  Ya know?

[AimeeM]

The first issue I have is that none of the punishments are related to the crime. You are also punishing him multiple times for the same offense. Children who lose everything at once, have nothing to work for - everything is gone until x time, so why try?

 

Honestly, I would look to find why he cheated before punishing at all. Is he afraid of disappointing you and his father? Is he ashamed that he doesn't understand the material? <----- those, to me, would warrant a heart-to-heart and require that he study/re-take the test. Or, was he just being lazy and didn't want to study? In that case, I would drop ONE thing that he likes UNTIL he shows that he is trying his best (no set time; this gives him hope that he can earn it back).

 

For either scenario I would require a handwritten essay on the history of cheating, how it is handled in college, and what the legal repercussions are, in adulthood, for copying another person's work as his own.

[TheApprentice]

The timing does kind of stink, but I think you have to stick to your punishments. The intent/implications of his actions are huge. And then he lied about it. I wouldn't give in. This has to hurt where it counts for him in order for him to get the seriousness. Sorry mom. :sad:

[starwarsmomma]

Already did-- on EVERYTHING!  :D  LOL

Change your password!

 

[Ali in OR]

My response would be more along the lines of "you have lost my trust" than "I will punish you." There would be changes in how the class is done--annoying as it may be, I would have to be in the same room with him when he's doing the assignments and he would have to verify to me that he is doing them by demonstrating how he solved this or that problem. He could only access the computer with me in the room (maybe password it so he needs you to sign in--and don't let him look while you do it!) It would go beyond this one class--I would feel the need to verify every assignment he is doing. His word is no good to you now--I don't know how long it would be before I felt I didn't have to follow up on every little thing he told me.

 

I would have no problem with him playing with his new xbox games on Christmas. Those aren't connected to the internet, right? I do agree with shutting down internet access, the phone, grounding sounds fine because Christmas should be family time anyway--I would have no qualms myself with being strict with these things but still letting him play with xbox and new games on Christmas day itself. I like to see my kids joyful and happy on that day.

[Bootsie]

Have academic consequences been imposed?  I don't know what type of online course this is--how it is graded, but is there any consequence that the course provider places on cheating?

[Haiku]

The PROBLEM is Christmas gifts.  He's getting some xbox games for Christmas.  The weather is supposed to be horrible, my inlaws will be here and we'll all be stuck in the house.  I feel bad that he would be grounded from his own christmas gifts for christmas with nothing else to do....  Especially when the inlaws bought him 2 games for xbox.  They wont get to see him play the games they bought him....

 

Too bad, so sad. Don't cheat next time.

 

Why does your son have your password, anyway? Change it, and don't let him have it. Don't leave it set to remember your password.

[EmilyGF]

I know of a woman who caught her child cheating at Saxon math. First offense: homework cheated on ripped up and repeated. Second offense: week of homework previously done ripped up and repeated. I think this punishment fits the crime well because the point of cheating is to save time and this makes it cost time. Also, if the cheating is done because the work is not understood, the work has to be redone.

 

Emily

[JumpyTheFrog]

Have you told his instructor? What did he or she say?

[starwarsmomma]

I just sent off the email about 30 minutes ago to the teacher.  I've already asked that the cheated work is counted as zero and also cleared out so he will be able to re-do the work (but still get a zero).

Have not heard back yet.  But I absolutely let the teacher know.  :D

 

Have you told his instructor? What did he or she say?

 

[starwarsmomma]

Have academic consequences been imposed?  I don't know what type of online course this is--how it is graded, but is there any consequence that the course provider places on cheating?

Good question!  I have no idea but did email the teacher.  Haven't heard back yet, but it's only been about 30 min.

[ktgrok]

Personally I would not punish on Christmas. For me, as a religious holiday, it is a Feast day. No deprivation allowed on a feast day, for religious reasons. Also, Jesus came to us so that we could be forgiven our sins, so on that day I'd feel obligated to forgive my son his sins.

 

Just my take on it. 

[Harriet Vane]

This particular offense has serious consequences out there in The Real World. Cheating can result in university expulsion, or job loss, or even prison if he cheats on a large enough scale with something like money. As such, I think it absolutely best and appropriate to make sure the world as he knows it comes to a stop.

 

Your punishments are totally fine. Stand your ground.

 

He has also lost trust. Future schoolwork should be directly supervised by you, as in you are physically in the room with him.

 

That said, also try your best to connect in a more meaningful way with him over the duration. Extra time, extra cuddles, extra games (cards? board games?)--spend time with your child, just being normal and happy together. The warmth of your relationship will help him over the hump. Firmness with love.

[Tracy]

Sounds like you are doing a great job.  No electronics is a good consequence for misusing electronics.  I wouldn't change a thing.  Let him get his electronic Christmas presents.  

 

And if he does it again, or anything like it, then I would take away things like xbox and phone for good.  He is not mature enough for electronics.  I would tell him ahead of time so he knows what to expect.  

[Berta]

 

 

The PROBLEM is Christmas gifts.  He's getting some xbox games for Christmas.  The weather is supposed to be horrible, my inlaws will be here and we'll all be stuck in the house.  I feel bad that he would be grounded from his own christmas gifts for christmas with nothing else to do....  Especially when the inlaws bought him 2 games for xbox.  They wont get to see him play the games they bought him....

 

 

I'd tell him too bad, suck it up Buttercup. It's only for a week. I would also put them somewhere that he can see them, as a reminder of what he lost.

[clarkacademy]

Since it is the second time yeah, I am with you I would be harsh.

[Coco_Clark]

Your punishments are not overly harsh but they are a bit "everywhere". No friends, no phone, no electronic games, extra chores, a paper. It kind of comes across "we will just make your life awful until set date" rather than "you must learn from this experience".

 

I LOVE the idea above about writing a paper on the repercussions of cheating in college/life. Fitting and useful, many teens do not understand cheating, especially plagiarism.

 

And I do think taking away electronics for misusing electronics fits the crime decently. Doing extra chores (assuming it was laziness that caused the cheating) could also fit. But unless his friends influenced the cheating I'd personally not add that one, unless he couldn't be trusted to stay away from electronics while with them, of course.

 

As for the holidays, you could always just say " until you have earned back our trust" instead of " until New Years". It gives you the freedom to have some holiday leeway without being a pushover, and him a consentive to a good attitude.

[foxbridgeacademy]

The first issue I have is that none of the punishments are related to the crime. You are also punishing him multiple times for the same offense. Children who lose everything at once, have nothing to work for - everything is gone until x time, so why try?

 

Honestly, I would look to find why he cheated before punishing at all. Is he afraid of disappointing you and his father? Is he ashamed that he doesn't understand the material? <----- those, to me, would warrant a heart-to-heart and require that he study/re-take the test. Or, was he just being lazy and didn't want to study? In that case, I would drop ONE thing that he likes UNTIL he shows that he is trying his best (no set time; this gives him hope that he can earn it back).

 

For either scenario I would require a handwritten essay on the history of cheating, how it is handled in college, and what the legal repercussions are, in adulthood, for copying another person's work as his own.

Yep like this.  My parents always grounded me from everything, which was not productive.  It left me sullen, bored, and very angry at the whole world.  I would take it out on them and my little sisters, making everyone's lives miserable (I was a horrible teenager). Total grounding did nothing to improve my work ethic or my honesty.  I think if there had been more talking and suggestions of why I might have misbehaved (because I didn't know) then I would have dealt better with my feelings/problems.  I'm not saying he shouldn't be grounded, but there are other ways to deal with a child who cheats.  Help them understand why cheating is wrong.... not just "morally" but for their own self respect.  If he takes a test and gets a C then he earned that C.  It's his, no one can say he failed.  If he cheats and gets an A, it  doesn't belong to him, it's false, a lie he's telling you and himself. Find out what he needs.  Practical: does he need to slow down?  did he not study because he spent time goofing off, does he need more free time?  Does he not understand the material and needs tutoring?  Emotionally: maybe he's feeling bad about himself and this is a way to feel better?  Maybe he just wants your approval (teens seem to need a endless amount of this).

 

 Also you might consider not worrying about grades.  HS'ing is wonderful because there is no final grade until you say so.  I've always thought the most important thing I can do for my child is to make sure thy're well loved and truly educated.... there are no grades for that. 

[Joker]

I don't get the people saying taking away his electronics is good because he misused electronics. He cheated. Would he not have cheated if it had been a pencil and paper test and the teacher's manual was nearby? Would then it be good to take away all books?

 

I just don't think the punishment has much to do with the actual crime. I would mostly be wanting to know why he cheated as others have already stated, and we would be joined rather closely until I figured out what was motivating the cheating. Is the teaching happening not working for him? Is the material too hard? Does he worry about failure or letting you down? Why is the cheating easier for him than just failing? The list goes on, but I really don't get the electronic aspect of it.

 

I also agree that it seems like a jumbled mess of consequences which reeks of desperation. I don't think that's good for either of you because where do go from here? What if he cheats again? What will be the consequence next time?

[TianXiaXueXiao]

I support your consequences. I would probably show him how it feels to lose trust by putting the shoe on the other foot, so to speak. Anything he requests could be fair game. You tell him you will or did do something he requests and when he discovers that you didn't really do it and starts to throw a fit, you just calmly tell him you are really sorry but you cheated and didn't do it, after all. I would do this repeatedly until he really understands what it is like to lose trust. 

[Haiku]

I'm not saying he shouldn't be grounded, but there are other ways to deal with a child who cheats.  Help them understand why cheating is wrong.... not just "morally" but for their own self respect.  If he takes a test and gets a C then he earned that C.  It's his, no one can say he failed.  If he cheats and gets an A, it  doesn't belong to him, it's false, a lie he's telling you and himself.

 

My oldest dd was a cheater. From the time she joined our family at age 11, she cheated at everything she could find an opportunity to cheat at. Games, chores, school, you name it. She also lied like mad. We were considerate and understanding for years, and nothing changed. When we finally began grounding the heck out of her for it, she stopped. Different kids respond to different things. My dd is now in college and no longer cheats. We have had many conversations about it. When she was younger, she cheated because 1) sometimes she was just feeling lazy 2) sometimes she wanted to impress people with what she'd "accomplished" 3) she knew she needed good grades to get into college and was willing to cheat to get them. None of our philosophical and moral conversations about how cheating is wrong changed her mind at all. She knew cheating was wrong but the payoff was too enticing. What changed her mind was being grounded from the things she enjoyed. Cheating was no longer worth it to her. Now that she's in college, she doesn't cheat because 1) she doesn't want to lose her scholarship and 2) she has matured to the point where she realizes that if she does not learn the material, she will fail at her chosen career. It took me a long, long time to understand and accept that some kids are much more materially driven than others. I am not, and my dd11 is not. My dd19 and my ds are. It's not wrong or bad; it's just different. They are also much more concrete thinkers. They respond to different consequences than I or dd11 would. Years of post-adoption counseling were required to help me understand that. Once I stopped all the talking and explaining and Socratic discussion with dd19 and moved straight to action, things improved dramatically. Action, consequence. Action, consequence. That's what she responds to.

[Berta]

My oldest dd was a cheater. From the time she joined our family at age 11, she cheated at everything she could find an opportunity to cheat at. Games, chores, school, you name it. She also lied like mad. We were considerate and understanding for years, and nothing changed. When we finally began grounding the heck out of her for it, she stopped. Different kids respond to different things. My dd is now in college and no longer cheats. We have had many conversations about it. When she was younger, she cheated because 1) sometimes she was just feeling lazy 2) sometimes she wanted to impress people with what she'd "accomplished" 3) she knew she needed good grades to get into college and was willing to cheat to get them. None of our philosophical and moral conversations about how cheating is wrong changed her mind at all. She knew cheating was wrong but the payoff was too enticing. What changed her mind was being grounded from the things she enjoyed. Cheating was no longer worth it to her. Now that she's in college, she doesn't cheat because 1) she doesn't want to lose her scholarship and 2) she has matured to the point where she realizes that if she does not learn the material, she will fail at her chosen career. It took me a long, long time to understand and accept that some kids are much more materially driven than others. I am not, and my dd11 is not. My dd19 and my ds are. It's not wrong or bad; it's just different. They are also much more concrete thinkers. They respond to different consequences than I or dd11 would. Years of post-adoption counseling were required to help me understand that. Once I stopped all the talking and explaining and Socratic discussion with dd19 and moved straight to action, things improved dramatically. Action, consequence. Action, consequence. That's what she responds to.

 

Same thing happened here with my daughter. We adopted her at age 9 and had a lot of the same issues. Taking tangible things that she valued most is the only thing that worked with her. If it required batteries or electricity they would be taken. Grounding her never worked because she is very much an introvert and liked being by herself. Talking to her and getting to the bottom of the reason why she would cheat or lie never worked because she hadn't begun to trust us (took years!) enough to open up. Action/consequence is what worked for us. And most importantly letting her know ahead of time what the consequences for XX would be, and STICKING to it. If I said XX was going to be lost, I had better follow through with it and be consistent.

[shawthorne44]

Why have a end date on the grounding?  Make it that X, Y and Z have to happen.  One of which would be that he retakes the test and gets at least a 90, and he does it while you are watching.  Would not matter if it wouldn't actually count for his grade.  He doesn't really need a phone, kindle, internet or an XBox, and maybe if he didn't have them he'd have more time to study and understand the material.  

 

Honestly, I think you are doing the kid a disservice if you don't come down on him like a ton of bricks.  Me, I'd be selling his electronics and using it to pay for the repeat class that I assume he will have to take. 

[Pen]

Ok, 8th grader son got caught cheating AGAIN on math -- on his online math classes.  Logged in AS ME, got the answers, then logged himself in and put the answers in.  Denied it until I showed him screenshots of the login times/dates (which I was able to prove I was not even on the computer during those days/times).

 

This isn't about the math-- obviously he cheated because he doesn't know the material and didnt ask for help-- I am addressing that issue separately.

 

This is about the punishment and Christmas. 

 

I'm kinda in a hard place and would love your thoughts/input-- even your creativity if you have ideas.

 

This is his second offense of getting caught cheating on math in 3 weeks.  We had warned him last time that it would be SEVERE if he EVER got caught cheating again.  Hubby said the punishment would be triple.  We made a huge deal out of it the first time...  so this was a big surprise....  

 

He's already going to be grounded until New Years Day (no friends which is a huge deal to him)

He's losing his phone until then too.

Hubby is going to turn off his internet and take away his kindle as part of all that.

No xbox either.

probably all those until new years.

Maybe extra report or something... I'd like to get creative.

Hubby has some chores he will be doing, maybe.

 

The PROBLEM is Christmas gifts.  He's getting some xbox games for Christmas.  The weather is supposed to be horrible, my inlaws will be here and we'll all be stuck in the house.  I feel bad that he would be grounded from his own christmas gifts for christmas with nothing else to do....  Especially when the inlaws bought him 2 games for xbox.  They wont get to see him play the games they bought him....

 

Maybe I'm being too soft for considering letting him play with xbox for Christmas?  I mean-- Cheating for a 2nd time is a HUGE deal to me and my husband.  I'd rather him fail and try his hardest than get an A+ and cheat.  He knows this and cheated anyway.  Never once asked for help.

 

So thoughts?

 

He's my normally honest kid.  This is very hard for me to think of how to handle this.

 

Creative input?

 

Maybe he could work on math with the visiting relatives, and maybe someone he looks up to who would be a bit of an outsider could have a talk with him?

 

Cheating could give him a "rush" feeling -- in which case the punishments may not help much.

 

There is another child who is not normally honest? A role model for this one? Or? How is that handled? Does the other child get similar punishments? Are there incentives for honesty? 

 

We do not have that much electronics, in any case, so for me it does not seem like a huge punishment to be deprived of it for a while, since we do not have most of all that at all. One reason not to have it is that I think gaming promotes violence and other antisocial behaviors, and tends to promote quick actions without thinking instead of promoting rational clear thinking and decision making, at a time when the decision parts of the brain need to be given more practice and experience.

 

I found the book by David (?) Walsh called something like Why do they Act that Way? was helpful in understanding adolescent brain development, along with a number of ideas about what to do in certain situations. Also the 5 Love Languages types of books.

 

I would probably ask my ds what he needed in order to not have the situation repeat, particularly given your comment that this child is usually honest. I would probably cut way back on the electronics and games exposure, not just temporarily as a punishment, but long term as something that is not that healthy and cuts into time for learning what is more valuable, and would generally impose greater supervision until responsibility was shown to be earned.

[Halcyon]

I would tell him he needs to go back and redo all the work related to that exam, but from another book. 

[Cosmos]

How did he cheat the second time if the password had been changed? Or was it not changed until after the second offense?

 

[Pen]

Here is  the book I meant:  http://www.amazon.com/WHY-They-Act-That-Way/dp/0743260775/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_1

 

WHY Do They Act That Way?: A Survival Guide to the Adolescent Brain for You and Your Teen: David Walsh Ph.D., Nat Bennett

 

I thought it extremely helpful in understanding what is going on with teens and their brains and behavior, and though there is expected to be more on this in next edition also there is some useful material about electronics and their effects.

 

[kolamum]

FWIW, sometimes the harder punishment for you is the one that really hits a nerve for them. Kwim?