Help - before I do something I'll regret (dog related)

[AimeeM]

Luke is a 3.5 year old German Shepherd. Other than some dog aggression issues (for which we have enlisted the aid of a private trainer, who specifically works with this breed and behaviour/temperament issues), he is really the ideal dog - cuddly, affectionate, loyal, great with the kids. I adore him. The idea of being without him makes me feel sick.

 

About a year or so ago he started having "potty" issues. Peeing in the house, constipation and diarrhea - the poop often ends up in the house. I'll caveat by saying that this is obvious, from his behaviour during the incidents, that he has no control over this.

 

I spend ALL day, letting him outside (he literally paces wanting to go out and try to potty every 10-15 minutes), wiping, disinfecting, mopping, disinfecting. My children fall and hurt themselves in his urine - I spend the better part of my day bathing children who have fallen in his urine. Today I found my 17 month old playing in feces on the kitchen floor - feces that I didn't know was there; Luke gave no indication of needing to go out... one minute he was laying contently in the dining room, the next thing I know I find Luke's poop and my 17 month old in the kitchen.

 

He has been medically cleared more than once - he's had x rays, blood work, stool samples, etc. There appears to be nothing wrong with him physically. We switched his food to a non-chicken based food, of much better quality. We've put pumpkin in his food.

 

Our next try will be replacing his food with white rice and boiled chicken for a week, to clear his system, as per his trainer's suggestion.

 

If that doesn't work. I don't know WHAT to do. This is becoming a very serious health and safety issue for my children. That HAS to be my first concern.

 

I just spent the last several hours doing more of the same - bathing the babe who was playing in feces, wiping and disinfecting the kitchen floor, letting Luke out every 10 minutes; then he pooped AGAIN in the kitchen, so I had to mop and disinfect again. THEN he pooped in the master bedroom.

 

I am so sincerely at my wit's end. I spend more time cleaning up after Luke, and tending to his potty needs, than I do with my children at this point. I love him, but I'm feeling pretty resentful right now.

 

Please be gentle. I don't want to give up on him. I just don't know where to go with this. We've already invested so much time, energy, and money into figuring this out, and it seems no closer to being fixed.

[SJ.]

I'm sorry, your situation sounds so frustrating.  :grouphug:

 

How does he tell you he needs to go out?  Is it possible that he doesn't know how to tell you or that you are missing his cues?  We had that problem when our dog was a puppy.  Our solution was to tie a bell to the back door and teach the dog to ring it when he needed to go out.  It worked perfectly because I knew to let him out even if I was across the house.  It is funny because my cats now rub against it when they want to go outside.  :) 

 

Best of luck to you.

[AimeeM]

I'm sorry, your situation sounds so frustrating.  :grouphug:

 

How does he tell you he needs to go out?  Is it possible that he doesn't know how to tell you or that you are missing his cues?  We had that problem when our dog was a puppy.  Our solution was to tie a bell to the back door and teach the dog to ring it when he needed to go out.  It worked perfectly because I knew to let him out even if I was across the house.  It is funny because my cats now rub against it when they want to go outside.  :)

 

Best of luck to you.

 

When he needs to go out, he alerts us - when he can control that - by pacing in the kitchen; if that doesn't work or we aren't paying attention, he nudge my hand or rear-end. This has only been a problem for about a year - before that he never had an accident, minus his early puppy days. He housebroke very easily, actually.

[JustEm]

Does he do anything when you let him out?  If not, I would put him right in a crate and let him out again in 10 or 15 minutes.  He only gets free range of the house if he relieves himself outside.  The crate has to be small enough to only fit him with no room for him to poop and stay away from it. If that ends up working then its a behavioral issue and not a health issue.  

[ktgrok]

You need a second opinion. SOMETHING medical is going on. GSD are prone to some things that other dogs don't usually get, including a werid form or gastroenteritis, and a spinal degeneration issue that might effect nerve function leading to loss of control of bowel/urine, maybe. (I am not a vet - please don't take that as any kind of diagnosis). 

 

But yeah, second or third opinion please. 

[AimeeM]

Does he do anything when you let him out?  If not, I would put him right in a crate and let him out again in 10 or 15 minutes.  He only gets free range of the house if he relieves himself outside.  The crate has to be small enough to only fit him with no room for him to poop and stay away from it. If that ends up working then its a behavioral issue and not a health issue.  

 

He will poop in his crate if I do that (been there) - then I have a crate and dog to clean.

He does try to relieve himself outside. He fluctuates between constipation and diarrhea though. I see him straining.

[AimeeM]

You need a second opinion. SOMETHING medical is going on. GSD are prone to some things that other dogs don't usually get, including a werid form or gastroenteritis, and a spinal degeneration issue that might effect nerve function leading to loss of control of bowel/urine, maybe. (I am not a vet - please don't take that as any kind of diagnosis). 

 

But yeah, second or third opinion please. 

We've had a second opinion. I'll go for a third. *sigh*

[Catwoman]

You need a second opinion. SOMETHING medical is going on. GSD are prone to some things that other dogs don't usually get, including a werid form or gastroenteritis, and a spinal degeneration issue that might effect nerve function leading to loss of control of bowel/urine, maybe. (I am not a vet - please don't take that as any kind of diagnosis).

 

But yeah, second or third opinion please.

I agree with Katie.

 

You need another opinion, because this doesn't sound at all normal. Unless your dog has recently become highly stressed by something going on in your home, I would strongly suspect that there is a physical cause.

[BrookValley.]

I agree that it sounds medical, for sure. That aside, though, can you crate him some of the day to at least contain things a bit and give you/your kids a break?

[AimeeM]

He looks sad.

He's just laying on the couch next to me.

I yelled at him earlier :(

[AimeeM]

I agree that it sounds medical, for sure. That aside, though, can you crate him some of the day to at least contain things a bit and give you/your kids a break?

 

No. He'll relieve himself in the crate - then I have a whole 'nother mess to deal with (and one that involves needing to bathe a dog on top of the crate).

[JustEm]

hmmm if you see him straining and he fluctuates greatly then its a health issue.  May be an allergy to his food.  I'd start the rice and chicken as soon a you can.  And ask a vet about possible food allergens to avoid that you haven't already considered

[AimeeM]

I agree with Katie.

 

You need another opinion, because this doesn't sound at all normal. Unless your dog has recently become highly stressed by something going on in your home, I would strongly suspect that there is a physical cause.

 

I can't imagine he'd be stressed. Home life is consistent. We hired the trainer for the dog aggression issue because I want him to have a better quality of life - right now he can only go for actual walks late at night when nobody else is walking (their dogs). I thought maybe he was depressed...

[JustEm]

Do you have a fenced in yard?  maybe its time he become an ourdoor dog for a bit.  Or at least keep him confined to one room that does not have carpet

[AimeeM]

Do you have a fenced in yard?  maybe its time he become an ourdoor dog for a bit.  Or at least keep him confined to one room that does not have carpet

 

We do have a fenced in back yard, but he could scale it if he wanted. It's too cold to leave him outdoors. I considered it, but it wouldn't be humane in this weather (wet and cold). He is very used to being around the family - that would send him insane. We have no carpet in any rooms, but the house is small - if he messes in a room, the entire house smells it, lol.

[Farrar]

Do you have a fenced in yard?  maybe its time he become an ourdoor dog for a bit.  Or at least keep him confined to one room that does not have carpet

 

Yes, I think it's fair to limit his movement.  I don't know how your house is laid out, but can you maybe baby gate him into the kitchen and put a doggie bed in there for him until this is all sorted out?

[albeto.]

Have you tried dog or vet forums? You might ask this question there while you figure out what to do.

 

I'm sorry to hear this. We had a puppy with a problematic submissive urination. It's hard to get mad at a pooch who can't help it, but hard to not be mad when the situation exceeds the limits of your patience. 

 

*hugs*

[ThisIsTheDay]

No advice, just :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: .  You've hung in there for far longer than I could have.

[TravelingChris]

I have to agree with the others- there is something physical going on there though I don't know what.  I had a dog that was very well house broken.  As he got older, he started loosing the ability to hold it - but he did go to a bathroom.  So we ended up using puppy pads though he wasn't a puppy.  We also took him out frequently but if we were out and he needed to go, he would go in the bathroom. 

 

The fact that your dog goes everywhere including the kitchen where presumably he eats??  and also a crate seems to me that you are right in thinking he can't control it.  Have you looked into dog diapers for him?  THey do make those- we ended up not needing that since mine still had enough control to go to one bathroom which was easy enough to paper with the puppy pads.  However, if it had gotten worse, we would have used these.

[RoughCollie]

We've had a second opinion. I'll go for a third. *sigh*

 

At this point I think it would be beneficial for you to contact a college of veterinary medicine.  If you don't live near one, get a referral to a veterinary specialist who can help your dog.

[Little Nyssa]

Are there some kind of diapers for dogs that you can put on him until you figure it out?

[Ausmumof3]

My sister minds dogs when people are on holiday and she has some who have very specific diets otherwise they have similar trouble. I would definitely start with the diet

[AimeeM]

At this point I think it would be beneficial for you to contact a college of veterinary medicine.  If you don't live near one, get a referral to a veterinary specialist who can help your dog.

 

We'll have to choose between that and the trainer. We can't afford both, if the specialist runs more than the regular vet. The private trainer is no small investment.

 

At this point I suppose the wisest investment would be medical, but his quality of life is improving SO much with the private trainer. In the few sessions we've had thus far, Luke has already made so much progress. The trainer is necessary for us to be able to board Luke (which we HAVE to do a couple times a year, including later this month).

 

I feel so lost. The boys aren't bonding with Luke - any time he comes near my 4 year old's room, my DS yells "out Lukey!" - he's afraid Luke will defecate in his bedroom :(

[albeto.]

We'll have to choose between that and the trainer. We can't afford both, if the specialist runs more than the regular vet. The private trainer is no small investment.

 

At this point I suppose the wisest investment would be medical, but his quality of life is improving SO much with the private trainer. In the few sessions we've had thus far, Luke has already made so much progress. The trainer is necessary for us to be able to board Luke (which we HAVE to do a couple times a year, including later this month).

 

You might need to put training on the back burner for a bit. Will the kennel even board him with this condition?

[AimeeM]

You might need to put training on the back burner for a bit. Will the kennel even board him with this condition?

 

They will board him with the bowel issues (we pay extra for a dog walk - so he isn't defecating in his kennel) - since he has been cleared medically, according to them (he boards at a vet's office kennel).

However, we will not/cannot board him there again. He is too dog aggressive; he will do anything to get away from the other dogs and has required heavy sedation to even be placed in the kennel. The staff has "red flagged" him as an aggressive dog (he is NOT people aggressive!) and do not even speak to him, as a result; he was such an emotional wreck the last time I picked him up that he hurt me trying to jump into my arms (and almost bit me when he thought I was putting him back in the kennel) - come to find out they red flagged him and he hadn't had human contact in a week... big deal for a family dog. The trainer has done such wonders already - I hate to see it end.

His trainer will board him at her place... but that is dependent on his training (i.e. he needs to be in training).

[albeto.]

They will board him with the bowel issues (we pay extra for a dog walk - so he isn't defecating in his kennel) - since he has been cleared medically, according to them (he boards at a vet's office kennel).

However, we will not/cannot board him there again. He is too dog aggressive; he will do anything to get away from the other dogs and has required heavy sedation to even be placed in the kennel. The staff has "red flagged" him as an aggressive dog (he is NOT people aggressive!) and do not even speak to him, as a result; he was such an emotional wreck the last time I picked him up that he hurt me trying to jump into my arms (and almost bit me when he thought I was putting him back in the kennel) - come to find out they red flagged him and he hadn't had human contact in a week... big deal for a family dog. The trainer has done such wonders already - I hate to see it end.

His trainer will board him at her place... but that is dependent on his training (i.e. he needs to be in training).

 

I see. Good luck to you.

 

I'm rooting for your pooch over here.

[AimeeM]

I see. Good luck to you.

 

I'm rooting for your pooch over here.

 

I'm going to check out some dog boards like you suggested. Thanks.

[RoughCollie]

I'm going to check out some dog boards like you suggested. Thanks.

 

Try this one:  http://www.dogforums.com/

 

To activate your account you have to make 3 posts, whether on your own thread or on other members' threads, in the Attention All New Members forum.  Do not make 3 separate threads.  You don't have to say much.  Just hi, looking forward to participating in the forums.  I'm new and I have a GSD.  I love dogs.  There, 3 posts already thought up!  Then post your actual problem on the Dog Health forum.  You can check for responses by hitting the new posts button near the top left side of the main page or by checking your thread.

 

The reason for this is that the forums have been hit by a ton of spambots lately.

 

Do that quickly, and then go to the regular forums, choose one, and post about your problem.  

 

Note:  You are not asking for a diagnosis -- that is against forum rules b/c even if someone claims to be a vet, no one can diagnose an animal over the internet.  You are asking whether anyone else has had this problem, what did it turn out to be, you've been to 2 vets and have been told your dog is healthy, and you are trying to choose between spending money on a specialist or a trainer.  Basically, you are asking for advice about how to handle this problem.

 

You will probably be asked whether the vets tested your dog for X, Y, and Z, and whether ultrasounds or x-rays were done ... stuff like that.

 

If you like, you can apply online for Care Credit to help pay vet bills.  http://www.carecredit.com/

 

If you Google "dog diapers" you will find lots of them.  They are expensive, so if you go this route, buy a small package in case your dog removes them.  They come in both disposable and washable. 

 

[RoughCollie]

The German Shepherd Dog Forums have 55,000 members:  http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/

 

They have a health and wellness section on their forums.

[shawthorne44]

That is so sad.  Couldn't you get a dog door?  They come big enough for a GSD. 

I have an Akita from a shelter with dog aggression issues.  I tried boarding/training but they basically just used a shock collar.  It is very helpful for dog walks though.  I only put the collar on for walks, and any time she isn't ignoring other dogs, she get a tiny zap.  I tap my finger on the button that is intermitent.  Every now and then we will cross a dog that is barking aggresively and I have to give her a longer jolt.  But it is a great help. 

Mine has no problem with little dogs, so they board her with the little dogs in the kennel meant for a pair of dogs. 

[LibraryLover]

That sounds like a serious health issue. :( I hope you can figure it out.  Poor doggy and family.

[LisaKinVA]

I'm sorry for you and your pup!  This has got to be really difficult.

 

I would agree with those who think your dog should spend time outside, until you get this resolved.  

 

Has the dog been tested for food allergies?  Dogs can be allergic to grains...I saw you took the dog off of chicken, but now you're putting the dog back on chicken?  Did the vet have you take the dog off of chicken, because he suspected an allergy to chicken...but didn't test for it?

 

You can look into IBS issues with dogs, food allergies, or healing gut diets.

 

You could also look into a raw meat/bone diet -- and eliminate all carbs.  Adding more bones (like chicken necks/backs) can help firm stools up.

 

The dog can fast for a day, and keep in mind that any change is going to produce 

 

I would be leaning towards dietary issues -- if everything else has been ruled out.

 

A degenerative, hereditary disease in GSD also can cause bowel/urinary incontinence, but it usually begins after other symptoms present, and only very rarely before a dog is 5 years old.

[Pawz4me]

I would be thinking it's a neurological issue.  Unfortunately, those are all too common in German Shepherds.  I highly doubt it's an allergy.  The problems you list simply are NOT typical allergy symptoms.  IMO you'll be wasting precious time if you go down that track.

[Mama Geek]

I don't have any idea if it would be possible but could you work on training him to go on a pee pad at the same place in the house, not ideal but if hecould it would limit the mess to 1 spot.

 

I do agree with everyone else, keep going to vets until you find someone that can help.  With my last dog I was the one that figured out he had lyme disease by doing lots of searching online.  We picked a different vet and called and said we will bring the dog in and pay for a visit if you will test him for lyme.  (This vet in particular had lyme as well.)  When he saw the dog he said the dog is fine and there was no way he had it.  He tested him and it came back of the charts positive for lyme.

[plansrme]

I would be thinking it's a neurological issue. Unfortunately, those are all too common in German Shepherds. I highly doubt it's an allergy. The problems you list simply are NOT typical allergy symptoms. IMO you'll be wasting precious time if you go down that track.

I second this. GSD breeders have ruined their breed over the years with the extreme sloping spine, but a neuro issue is unlikely to be picked up on a typical vet exam. Could you try a dog chiropractor? There have to be such things. . ..

 

I have just never heard of a dog allergy causing such extreme incontinence. It could, of course, but that wouldn't be a typical symptom, and as I always tell my kids, they call 'em "typical symptoms" for a reason.

[AimeeM]

That is so sad.  Couldn't you get a dog door?  They come big enough for a GSD. 

I have an Akita from a shelter with dog aggression issues.  I tried boarding/training but they basically just used a shock collar.  It is very helpful for dog walks though.  I only put the collar on for walks, and any time she isn't ignoring other dogs, she get a tiny zap.  I tap my finger on the button that is intermitent.  Every now and then we will cross a dog that is barking aggresively and I have to give her a longer jolt.  But it is a great help. 

Mine has no problem with little dogs, so they board her with the little dogs in the kennel meant for a pair of dogs. 

 

A dog door wouldn't do anything - he often seems unable to control it long enough to get outside - we are always available to let him out if necessary.

We have a shock collar, but it isn't a long term solution and, frankly, he hates other (big) dogs enough that shocking him did nothing to stop him from trying to attack.

Luke also has no problem with small dogs! We have a small Italian Greyhound (think miniature greyhound) and they are great friends. Our vet will not allow him to board with the small dogs though :(

[SKL]

Can he live outside?  My sister has a bunch of German Shepherds and they are outside all the time.

[SKL]

I definitely would not punish or yell at him.  My parents had a cat who started doing that - they thought it was behavior - it turned out to be diabetes.  Then they felt so bad for "grounding" her in the basement when she peed upstairs.

[AimeeM]

I second this. GSD breeders have ruined their breed over the years with the extreme sloping spine, but a neuro issue is unlikely to be picked up on a typical vet exam. Could you try a dog chiropractor? There have to be such things. . ..

 

I have just never heard of a dog allergy causing such extreme incontinence. It could, of course, but that wouldn't be a typical symptom, and as I always tell my kids, they call 'em "typical symptoms" for a reason.

 

That's what concerns me. This has been going on for quite a while now, despite trying different diets.

The trainer is actually the one who suggested the rice/boiled chicken "clear out", and then moving to an all natural, locally made food with no additives. Right now he is on a lamb based food (moved from a chicken based food because we found out it was crappy quality and chicken based can cause digestive issues?).

We've also been adding pumpkin to his food, as per the trainer. I guess we were/are more inclined to try what she says, since she works specifically with this breed.

 

If we find a specialist, and it is a neurological issue, can it be fixed? Getting him to the vet is quite the adventure :) He requires heavy sedation, before getting in the car, and muzzling, so we try to only go as absolutely needed (i.e. I'd like to find a specialist on my own, without necessarily going through his vet first, to lessen how much we have to sedate him and cause him stress). I'll set to googling a specialist.

[AimeeM]

Can he live outside?  My sister has a bunch of German Shepherds and they are outside all the time.

 

Not really. It's a subdivision - I'm pretty sure he could scale the fence. Beyond that, unlike most outside dogs, he simply isn't used to it and it would cause him a great deal of stress; he's used to being an indoor family dog. The amount of time I could spend with him outside would be seriously limited to my youngest child's naptime.

It's also really cold outside :(

[AimeeM]

I definitely would not punish or yell at him.  My parents had a cat who started doing that - they thought it was behavior - it turned out to be diabetes.  Then they felt so bad for "grounding" her in the basement when she peed upstairs.

 

Oh I don't punish him. I did yell at him - I didn't mean to and I felt horrible about it. Again this morning I woke up to a complete mess - feces all over the house. I spent the better part of an hour cleaning and disinfecting the house before allowing anyone out of their bedrooms.

It's just frustrating. I'm at the end of my rope - especially when it starts to become a safety and health issue for the children in the house. I can confine him or put him out of doors, but his own quality of life would worsen if I do that.

I feel like I can't win.

[AimeeM]

Is there something more specific to google other than "dog specialist"? Lol.

[LMV]

What state are you in, Aimee?

If you aren't comfortable sharing this on the forum you can private message me or I suppose you can list a few contiguous states and I'll get suggestions for all.

[Pawz4me]

That's what concerns me. This has been going on for quite a while now, despite trying different diets.

The trainer is actually the one who suggested the rice/boiled chicken "clear out", and then moving to an all natural, locally made food with no additives. Right now he is on a lamb based food (moved from a chicken based food because we found out it was crappy quality and chicken based can cause digestive issues?).

We've also been adding pumpkin to his food, as per the trainer. I guess we were/are more inclined to try what she says, since she works specifically with this breed.

 

If we find a specialist, and it is a neurological issue, can it be fixed? Getting him to the vet is quite the adventure :) He requires heavy sedation, before getting in the car, and muzzling, so we try to only go as absolutely needed (i.e. I'd like to find a specialist on my own, without necessarily going through his vet first, to lessen how much we have to sedate him and cause him stress). I'll set to googling a specialist.

 

The problem with assuming it's food related (and I really, really don't think it is) is that you're just playing a guessing game by trying different commercial foods.  There are so many ingredients in even limited ingredient commercial foods that it's almost impossible to figure out issues related to food that way.  And any dog can have issues with any food, preservative, etc.  I have not noticed that dogs are particularly sensitive to chicken.  Grains get a bad rap, but ALL the veterinary studies I've read indicate that meat proteins are statistically much more likely to be an allergy trigger in dogs than grains.  Lamb used to be considered a hypoallergenic meat protein many years ago, but no more.  It has been a common ingredient in commercial foods for decades now, which means it's no longer considered hypoallergenic (and hasn't been for a very long time).

 

What you'd need to do is either go to a prescription limited ingredient diet or a homemade diet consisting of one protein and one carb source.  And preferably none of the ingredients in the prescription food or the homemade food would be anything he's ever had before.  And you'd feed that and absolutely nothing else--no treats, no chew bones, not even chewable heartworm preventative, for a minimum of several weeks.  My vet recommends 12 weeks for food allergy elimination diets.  It's not an easy thing to do, but it's truly the only way to tell if food is the culprit.  In your case I think it's highly unlikely.  The bowel issues could possibly be related to food.  Maybe.  But loss of bladder control?  Extremely unlikely, IMO.

 

As far as whether or not neurological issues can be fixed -- I don't know.  I guess it depends on the issue, and I'm sure some can be treated.

 

 

Is there something more specific to google other than "dog specialist"? Lol.

 

Here is a link to the American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine's board-certified neurologists page.  You may find some help there under their "find a specialist" link.  I'd also try Googling "veterinary neurologists [your state or close big city"].  If your state or a nearby state has a vet school, that's a good place to look.  From what I understand, having a pet seen at a vet school can often be less expensive than a private practice specialist.  Most veterinary specialists and vet schools require a referral from a regular vet.

[SKL]

By the way, they do make doggie diapers in case that's an option while you troubleshoot.

[ktgrok]

He will poop in his crate if I do that (been there) - then I have a crate and dog to clean.

He does try to relieve himself outside. He fluctuates between constipation and diarrhea though. I see him straining.

 

That straining is, I bet, actually cramping after diarrhea, not constipation. Dogs almost never get constipated. They do, however, have the rectal equivalent of dry heaves, lol.  As a tech most of the time people would say their dog had constipation when actually it was the tail end of diarrhea. 

[Pawz4me]

That straining is, I bet, actually cramping after diarrhea, not constipation. Dogs almost never get constipated. They do, however, have the rectal equivalent of dry heaves, lol.  As a tech most of the time people would say their dog had constipation when actually it was the tail end of diarrhea. 

 

My mother had a dog with chronic constipation.  I always suspected it was neurological, as she had degenerative disc disease.  But the dog was old and it was manageable with prescription food, so no further testing was pursued.

[AimeeM]

What state are you in, Aimee?

If you aren't comfortable sharing this on the forum you can private message me or I suppose you can list a few contiguous states and I'll get suggestions for all.

 

Upstate South Carolina. Thanks!

[AimeeM]

That straining is, I bet, actually cramping after diarrhea, not constipation. Dogs almost never get constipated. They do, however, have the rectal equivalent of dry heaves, lol.  As a tech most of the time people would say their dog had constipation when actually it was the tail end of diarrhea. 

 

Oh no. That makes me feel terrible - to think that he's "dry heaving". That must be painful!

[Pawz4me]

The ASPCA says canine constipation is very common.