Who has a narcissistic mother?

[plansrme]

Would you care to share any insights, maybe how the narcissism manifests itself, how you reconcile your obligation to honor your parents with her being what she is? Does it help to have a label? Or just make it more frustrating?

[dbmamaz]

My daughter told me to read the book "Will I ever be good enough" - sure enough, my mom has every symptom on the list.  I have a distant, polite relationship with her - but she's not mean-spirited and only rarely plays the guilt games.  I think it helped some, because it made me understand what happened.

 

I am not a religious person, but my neighbor said she had this big revelation when she went to a new church and the minister said that honoring your parents does not include letting them tell you how to run your life as an adult.  You need to set boundaries.  Just because she does not know what a healthy relationship is does not mean you cant set boundaries - otherwise you are actually engaging in an unhealthy relationship with her, which is actually not doing her any good.

 

Read the book - my library had it.  If you are still struggling, try a little therapy.  Its hard to get those head games out of your head.

[G5052]

In my case, "had."  The best thing I ever did was to move many states away and to set boundaries.

 

I'd rather not bring it all up again, but here's a helpful website: http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/

[Hen]

raising my hand, I do.

 

I put a "name" to it a few years ago, maybe 4 or 5 years ago?  Yes, it did help a lot.  It helped me to realize that it really wasn't us, that we are not unlovable somehow, or worth less then other things she put before us.  It helped me to realize that she was likely to never change and that I couldn't change it, or argue her into being more easy to get along with.  It helped a lot to know which "kind" of narcissist she was (she was the ignoring kind) and to know what kind of behaviors she used, so then, when she started down the road of crazy, I could decide how I wanted to respond.  Sometimes I chose to play up to it and give her the attention she wanted and other times, she was so over-the-top that I would chose to ignore her actions.  The resulting sulk/ cat-butt face was already expected so I didn't waste the whole evening feeling shamed and confused.  My mom was the ignoring kind, which was a bit easier on me, I think.  She was the most selfish person I knew and only did things she wanted to do.  She never called me, so as I let the relationship dwindle down to nothing (I saw her on major holidays and it was all my own effort to see her) - she never even noticed.  It was a lonely childhood, but at least I can look back and see it now, and know it wasn't my fault.   She did the ignoring mostly, but also would occasionally try to triangulate me and my sister against my older step-siblings.  She gas-lighted (retold history different ways to favor herself) which confused me a lot until I had a name for it and realized what she was doing.  She punished us with bad/broken or used gifts or with no gifts.  When strife broke out in the family, she played the martyr card..."oh, so now I"M the bad guy" -(just like that scene in Tangled)

 

anyways, I'm really sorry if this is the road you are walking, it did really help me to read up on NPD and learn about the different behaviors on the spectrum.  It also helped me to understand that it is a spectrum disorder and that at points in her life she was capable of empathy at times, which confused me at first.  NPD isn't always about someone wanting to overtly be center stage...it can be more hidden than that, but down to the bottom of it, yes, she was more important than anyone.   She died last year of alcoholism, which is a common trait on the spectrum.

[Alicia64]

In my case, "had."  The best thing I ever did was to move many states away and to set boundaries.

 

I'd rather not bring it all up again, but here's a helpful website: http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/

 

Sadly, I'm part of this club too, but in my case it's both of my parents. G5052 and I could be sisters, but if we were we wouldn't be talking because narcissists work so hard at pitting siblings against each other.

 

I tried so hard for four decades to get my parents to just plain like me and I got nowhere constantly. They're highly critical, extremely money oriented, status oriented etc.

 

We finally moved 3,000 miles away which has been wonderful. They'd visit us twice a year and all would be peaceful. Not. They couldn't even keep it together when they visited their grand kids twice a year for a week each time. They started being really mean to one of my boys -- who just happens to be the sunniest kid -- and my boy came to me saying that he didn't want to be around them anymore. And that that they were saying mean things about me to them.

 

Divide and conquer: that's the narcissists go-to method every time. Don't want anyone to compare notes because it might make them look bad.

 

Once they started being mean to one of my boys, that was it. I went "NC" or "no contact." I could put up with a lot, but I wouldn't let my poor kids "learn to live with it."

 

Sorry if I gave you TMI. These people do not improve. In fact, everything I've read says that they just get worse as they age.

 

Alley

[plansrme]

 She gas-lighted (retold history different ways to favor herself) which confused me a lot until I had a name for it and realized what she was doing.  She punished us with bad/broken or used gifts or with no gifts.  

 

Thanks, everyone, for the responses so far.  This, especially, resonated with me.  I have always gone back and forth about whether she lies or is delusional; I still don't know which it is, but I have clear memories of this kind of behavior back to when I was 12.  And the projections--accusing me of things I have never done but that are hallmarks of her own existence--are infuriating.  And yes, the triangulation, and making everything about her her her her.  My brother and I had very different experiences with her growing up--she was a very different parent to him then and now, so he simply does not see her the way that I do, and that causes problems.  I could go on, but I think I'll just go order the book that was recommended above.  I am in my 40s and have been financially independent of my parents since I was 17.  We have not even lived in the same state in nearly 20 years, so it really shouldn't matter that she hates me, and 99% of the time it doesn't.  My policy is not to engage, but every once in a while, I can't help it, and I challenge her, and all hell breaks loose.  And by "all hell," this time, I mean I receive hateful emails (yes, two--one wasn't enough to contain the venom) about how I've always hated her (which is not true--she is projecting), backed up  by incidents that supposedly occurred when I was younger than 10, all the way through to the present--my wedding, my graduations, for instance, all she purports to remember is that I didn't spend any time with HER at those events.  The emails are horrible, and they are hysterically funny in their awfulness, and they are mean, and they are full of lies, and I should completely laugh them off, especially when I realize that she did this exact same thing this time last year.  But dang it, that is easier said than done.

 

Thanks again, everyone.  It is helpful to hear other people's experiences and to vent about my own.

[plansrme]

In fact, everything I've read says that they just get worse as they age.

 

 

 

Exactly!  That is absolutely what I am seeing!

[Mommy22alyns]

Me.  I only realized it a couple of years ago, but she fits it to a T.  I am no longer in contact and I honestly just wish I'd figured it out sooner.

[Alicia64]

Thanks, everyone, for the responses so far.  This, especially, resonated with me.  I have always gone back and forth about whether she lies or is delusional; I still don't know which it is, but I have clear memories of this kind of behavior back to when I was 12.  And the projections--accusing me of things I have never done but that are hallmarks of her own existence--are infuriating.  And yes, the triangulation, and making everything about her her her her.  My brother and I had very different experiences with her growing up--she was a very different parent to him then and now, so he simply does not see her the way that I do, and that causes problems.  I could go on, but I think I'll just go order the book that was recommended above.  I am in my 40s and have been financially independent of my parents since I was 17.  We have not even lived in the same state in nearly 20 years, so it really shouldn't matter that she hates me, and 99% of the time it doesn't.  My policy is not to engage, but every once in a while, I can't help it, and I challenge her, and all hell breaks loose.  And by "all hell," this time, I mean I receive hateful emails (yes, two--one wasn't enough to contain the venom) about how I've always hated her (which is not true--she is projecting), backed up  by incidents that supposedly occurred when I was younger than 10, all the way through to the present--my wedding, my graduations, for instance, all she purports to remember is that I didn't spend any time with HER at those events.  The emails are horrible, and they are hysterically funny in their awfulness, and they are mean, and they are full of lies, and I should completely laugh them off, especially when I realize that she did this exact same thing this time last year.  But dang it, that is easier said than done.

 

Thanks again, everyone.  It is helpful to hear other people's experiences and to vent about my own.

 

I think the "just laughing it off" plan doesn't do justice to how vile these people are. Their entire existence is to hurt and be cruel to others. If just laughing it off were truly possible, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

It really is a very bad situation -- and we do ourselves a disservice by not treating it like the true poison it is.

 

Take good care,

 

Alley
 

[NicAnn]

I'm not convinced my mother has NPD, but some kind of hybrid form of it with something else. She doesn't have the evilness in such an overt way. She has three kids, including me, and none of us have any fond memories of her. She has never met my kids, spoken to them, or been given a picture. Despite this, she calls herself Grandma Hannah to her friends and makes up elaborate stories about what a great mother she was growing up. It's very difficult.

Anyway, in regards to honoring ones parents- I'm Christian, and I admit this was a difficult decision at first. I realized though, that by continuing a relationship with my mother or by ignoring her problems, I was not honoring anyone/thing else. My relationship with my husband, God, friends, all suffered. So I made the decision to remove her from our lives. It has been for the best.

[NicAnn]

I think the "just laughing it off" plan doesn't do justice to how vile these people are. Their entire existence is to hurt and be cruel to others. If just laughing it off were truly possible, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

It really is a very bad situation -- and we do ourselves a disservice by not treating it like the true poison it is.

Take good care,

Alley

I so totally agree with this. Laughing off an eccentric family member is fine. But these people are cruel. They seek to destroy.

[Lara in Colo]

I'm not convinced my mother has NPD, but some kind of hybrid form of it with something else. She doesn't have the evilness in such an overt way. She has three kids, including me, and none of us have any fond memories of her. She has never met my kids, spoken to them, or been given a picture. Despite this, she calls herself Grandma Hannah to her friends and makes up elaborate stories about what a great mother she was growing up. It's very difficult.

Anyway, in regards to honoring ones parents- I'm Christian, and I admit this was a difficult decision at first. I realized though, that by continuing a relationship with my mother or by ignoring her problems, I was not honoring anyone/thing else. My relationship with my husband, God, friends, all suffered. So I made the decision to remove her from our lives. It has been for the best.

 

My mother has Borderline personality disorder--- the personalities she borderlines are narcissism and manic/depressive.

 

To research BPD there is a book called Surviving a Borderline parent.

 

It helped me a lot and they have lots of examples of things other children have experienced so I say "hey that's my childhood!!"   plus ways to reclaim your life.

[gardenmom5]

my grandmother.

yes - it helped to have a label. 

 

just a few things - everything was about her.  always. EVERYTHING.  in my mind, she wanted to be worshipped - we were to lay down on the alter while she wielded a knife. to cut out our beating heart,  or to kiss her muck covered feet while she kicked us in the mouth.

 

she always told us what to do. (and to disobey was to ensure retribution.)

• if we did what she said, and it worked - she took full credit for being so smart.
• if we did what she said, and it DID NOT work - she blamed us for not doing what she said.
• if we did NOT do what she said, and it worked - she took full credit for being so smart, because in her mind, we did what she said.  (must take credit for what works)

she was very competitive - anything good that happened to anyone else - was a personal insult to her/or her-favored-child.

 

if you really want some information - read this blog.

 

do not underestimate how damaging this people are.   this is abuse and it can affect people's self-concept in a negative way for the rest of their lives.

 

Making sure an aged parent's needs are being met doesn't mean we have to be the one meeting them, or even have frequent contact with them.   keeping them away from children (re: the next generation) is the responsible thing to do.

[pdalley]

I had one. She passed almost two years ago - from cancer. I doubt she could have scripted a better end as it allowed her to die young and a martyr. Her last six months were spent convincing her Doctor that my brother and I were lying about her illness and she completely snowed him. She demanded that she be my first priority - telling me that my kids were never going to be functional independent adults (they are all on the autism spectrum with various co-morbid conditions but there's never been any question that they will be fully functional productive members of society and dh and I are working to that end with the help of a great treatment team who agrees they will be fine) while she was in the hospital having a treatment. The staff thought I must have imagined what she'd said to me even though I was so upset I had to call dh from work to help me gather myself. He went into her room and told her very calmly that she'd bullied me for forty odd years but it was going to stop now. He wasn't going to have it. She refused to acknowledge him and I left and didn't speak to her for 24 hours. That was enough to keep her in check the rest of her stay.

 

Two years and I'm still finding out about the long term damage she caused my brother and myself. I wish I could miss her but primarily I feel relief she is gone. I don't want to feel that way. I don't want to feel guilty when well meaning people from church give me condolences. I should honor my mother but it's really hard to do it. The scars run deep. 

 

I did keep her away from our kids when she was having her hissy fits so she didn't get to extend her damage to them. I hope they never know what she said about them. It still hurts and makes me angry. It was the worst thing anyone could say to me and she didn't hesitate to let it fly. Why? Because I wasn't moving fast enough to suit her when she was taking a shower in the hospital.

 

:grouphug: to the OP and everyone who has had to deal with this. 

[Onceuponatime]

Not my mother, but I'm pretty sure my mother's mother was. I think that affected the way my mother parented, and not in a positive way. I'm only beginning to understand why my mother did some of the things she did when my brothers and I were children. I see her fighting the temptation to be like her mother, and we have a much better relationship now than we did when I was growing up.

 

My grandmother always had everyone around her on eggshells. You never knew what would set her off. It was very confusing to me because I was the "loved" grandchild and my brother was the  unloved one. My father's parents tried to have a relationship with her but she was very jealous of them and wouldn't respond. She didn't like my father and twisted things he said into supposed insults against herself.

 

I didn't realize the extent of her issues till I was grown. We always lived very far away and saw her infrequently.

[G5052]

Sadly, I'm part of this club too, but in my case it's both of my parents. G5052 and I could be sisters, but if we were we wouldn't be talking because narcissists work so hard at pitting siblings against each other.

 

I tried so hard for four decades to get my parents to just plain like me and I got nowhere constantly. They're highly critical, extremely money oriented, status oriented etc.

 

We finally moved 3,000 miles away which has been wonderful. They'd visit us twice a year and all would be peaceful. Not. They couldn't even keep it together when they visited their grand kids twice a year for a week each time. They started being really mean to one of my boys -- who just happens to be the sunniest kid -- and my boy came to me saying that he didn't want to be around them anymore. And that that they were saying mean things about me to them.

 

Divide and conquer: that's the narcissists go-to method every time. Don't want anyone to compare notes because it might make them look bad.

 

Once they started being mean to one of my boys, that was it. I went "NC" or "no contact." I could put up with a lot, but I wouldn't let my poor kids "learn to live with it."

 

Sorry if I gave you TMI. These people do not improve. In fact, everything I've read says that they just get worse as they age.

 

Alley

 

Absolutely, "sister."  I have almost no contact with my sibling.  There are mental health issues there too, and I don't want to play the game. They were psychologically poisoned. 

 

Mine was violent and abused drugs.  All with a veneer of respectability. As she aged and developed dementia, it went over the top.  At one point they were talking state mental hospital.  Along the way I did all I could to protect both her and those around her.

 

The good part of this though is that I recognized the problem early enough to get help and to learn to keep her and my enabling father at arm's length.

[G5052]

Two years and I'm still finding out about the long term damage she caused my brother and myself. I wish I could miss her but primarily I feel relief she is gone. I don't want to feel that way. I don't want to feel guilty when well meaning people from church give me condolences. I should honor my mother but it's really hard to do it. The scars run deep. 

 

I didn't cry when mine died.  I cried at the graveside because it was so final.

 

And yes, I got the flowery cards.  Some from people who thought she had to be one of the best people they ever knew.  Seriously.

 

Thankfully I have one relative on that side who completely "gets" it, and they are the only ones I have contact with.

 

We don't pick our relatives, but we choose how we interact with them.

[Halcyon]

I don't know if she is techinically narcissistic,but she tends that way. It's very frustrating. My DH thought for years she would change, but she hasn't. Everything is about her, and I mean everything. She is child-like, almost.  The only time things arent' about her is when there is an emergency situation, let's say a health situation, with another family member. Then she is very helpful, but always in a martyr-like way, and again, to demonstrate how saintly SHE is. Very little is done completely selflessly. There are occasions, but not very often. 

 

We live 20 minutes away from her, in fact moved to this state to be closer to Grandma, but she has seen the kids just 3 times (once for less than 10 minutes) since last Christmas. It would be shocking if it weren't so sad. Her excuse? "I am so busy." No, she doesn't work. 

 

ETA: Oh, just read a couple of posts. My mother is VERY competitive. She MUST win at everytthing. if she doesn't she blames someone else. Like I said, child-like.

[Kathryn]

I finally cut my mother out of my life following her behavior after my miscarriage this spring. I made the mistake of telling her parents that if she went to therapy, I'd consider a relationship. She went to someone a few months ago for the sole purpose of getting back in my life. I met with her therapist once on my own, then once with her, then this week again on my own. I really wish I didn't feel like I should do this for her parents. It just causes upheaval and drama in our lives. She's playing a part, completely fleecing this woman. She very well may have autism spectrum issues, but there's way more going on than that with all of the lying and manipulation and trying to play people off one another. She's latched on to my son's diagnosis because it gives her an "excuse" for her selfishness, lack of empathy, etc. I don't know where this therapy is going, because I don't see her actually working on anything, just making excuses, and I'm getting tired of rearranging my life so that I can do this. If her parents weren't alive, I wouldn't be doing this at all. Sigh.

[jrn]

I don't know if my mother would be diagnosed a narcissist but she sure has tendencies.  After making everything pure torture, I no longer have contact with her.  I am a Christian and really wrestled with the honoring part, but a discussion with my pastor made me realize that no contact is the right thing to do.  It's sad that there are so many of us in this position. :grouphug: to all of us.

[KRG]

not my mom, but my mil.  It all came to a head this week. A lot that has been posted resonates with my dh and me.  

[plansrme]

 I don't know where this therapy is going, because I don't see her actually working on anything, just making excuses, and I'm getting tired of rearranging my life so that I can do this. If her parents weren't alive, I wouldn't be doing this at all. Sigh.

 

I believe my dad had a similar experience before they divorced.  She quit going when the therapist suggested that she just might be part of the problem, but of course it took a while before the therapist was able to see beyond her lies and excuses--she is a Rube Goldberg contraption when it comes to excuses.     

 

Again, I really do appreciate all of the responses.  I had no idea how helpful it would be to hear that I am not the only one who is affected by this kind of behavior.  I was under no illusion that other mothers aren't up to this sort of thing, don't get me wrong, but I wasn't sure other daughters minded once they were grown-ups and leading successful, boundary-filled lives.  It helps to know that I am not the only one whose mother can still get to her.  My policy is usually not to engage--I send her chatty emails about the kids; she sends me crazy responses; I just send her something else about the kids and don't even acknowledge her response.  But, for once, I engaged--two sentences, "Stop it; I am not 12," and really, the vitriol that spewed forth in response was alarming.

[HappyLady]

I'm not an expert on the subject and honestly only learned there was a term for it from you wonderful ladies here, but my mom is definitely *something.*  What, I don't know, but something.  I remember exactly when our relationship changed.  I was 11 and I was her perfect child.  I was a straight A student, very well behaved, played softball (where I was always on the all-star team), did dance (where I helped teach kids younger than me because I was so good), and cheered (where I was the best cheerleader).  Whatever my mom wanted me to do I did it and excelled at it.  Then, she became obsessed with gymnastics after watching the Olympics.  She decided I was then going to be a gymnast.  I didn't do well at it.  I just didn't have the upper body strength for it, not to mention I was very tall.  Even the coaches said they didn't know how to spot me because I was so tall.  I hated it.  My mom had pulled me out of dance (which I loved) so I could do gymnastics.  I told her every week that I didn't want to go and she didn't care.  One day I ended up breaking a tooth at gymnastics because I came down on my head, hard, on the horse.  My mom wouldn't take me to a dentist (I ended up going on my own, which shocked everyone at the dentist's office).  After that I faked being sick for the next few classes and my mom finally got that I wasn't going to do it anymore.  Instead, she decided I'd practice at home.  Her goal was to get me to do a back handspring.  I could do them, but my arms gave out a lot on me and I'd land on my head.  One day, she told me to practice them.  I said no (first time ever standing up to her).  She became furious and told me to practice them.  Again, I said no.  She went in my bedroom, dragged my mattress off the bed and into the room I was in and told me to practice them.  Again, I said no.  She went to smack me across the face and I blocked her.  I'll never forget the look of fury on her face when I did that.  She went to smack me with the other hand and again I blocked her.  My sister said I looked like the Karate Kid doing "wax on, wax off."  LOL  My mom told me to go to my room and as I walked by her she shoved me.  I remember looking back at her and just hating her.  After that, nothing I said or did was right.  I went to an honors high school and she did nothing but put it down.  I went to college and she made it impossible for me to study and have a life so I moved out.  I ended up staying with a boyfriend who abused me for 4 years just so I didn't have to move back home with her.  So many more things happened that it surprises me she's still in my life at all (very little communication).  She's done nothing but bad mouth me to anyone who'll listen and I've never been deserving of it.  

 

Like someone else mentioned, my sister was raised completely differently and it has caused problems between us.  My sister expects me to do the things for our mother that she does and I refuse. I'm not going to keep letting that woman run my life.

 

Being a mom has really made it difficult for me to understand how any mother can be like this to their own child.  I don't get it and am so fearful of doing anything like my mother did to me to my kids.  :(

[Mommy22alyns]

Ah, the sibling issues too.  I was the scapegoat and my sister, 9 years younger, was the golden child.  We've never been close and barely spoke even before things were cut off with my mother.  I hear she's finally moved out though.

[Tess in the Burbs]

My grandmother was, and I'm beginning to finally see my mother in the same light. It certainly explains the drama she brings. And I long to have a better relationship with her but it never gets better. :-( my sister is as well and she/mom really clash!!!

[Lara in Colo]

How are these people made?  How can I avoid making more (i.e. my children)?

[Alicia64]

How are these people made?  How can I avoid making more (i.e. my children)?

 

I think this is the 64 million dollar question. Some say it's from their own childhood abuse, but what makes the most sense to me is that they have something within their own DNA that gets triggered by bad childhood treatment.

 

Everyone is just guessing at this point.

 

My sister was/is the golden child -- and she became a narcissist just like my parents. She's very haughty, very me-me, mean to her kids (although she would dispute this), easily "wounded" (I can't believe you didn't remember my birthday with a card. Um, we don't speak anymore really, remember?!)

 

I think when the golden children grow up to be a narcissist it could have plenty to do with the Stockholm Syndrome -- where the prisoners start acting like the guards. She started treating me as badly as my parents were treating me.

 

Now that we're adults I try to feel compassion towards my sister, but she sure makes it hard!

 

Alley

[love_reading]

Oh my GOD, truthly there are these kind of people. I never thought this was true. My mom(aged 64) has her mom(aged 90)My mom's and grani's relation was not very great when my mom grew up. But later, after my mom got married things got better to some extent and was good(my mom told us) past few years maybe from 15 yrs things are not so good again.
Past 2 yrs my mom and grani don't speak. Since I have a very very great relation with my mom, it was so hard to digest about their relation as I am close to my grani too. I always looked for ways to make sure that my mom would talk to my grani and in fact once they stopped talking and because I asked my mom not to be so stubborn. My mom spoke to my grani only because of me(how nice of her) and went well for few months.
Again things got bad and they have completely stopped talking. Till now I was wishing her that she would talk or put some effort. I did indirectly mention to her but hats off to my mom where she didn't get mad at me or felt bad that I was still doing it.
Since I din't have that relation with my mom, it was so difficult to understand her and I feel very bad now. Thanks to you all for making me realize there are people like my grani too. My grani is the same as what you all have discussed.
I should apologize for my mom for asking her to do things against her wish even at this age. I am so sorry amma. I shall call her soon.

Thank you for waking me up and a big hug  :grouphug:  to you all who had/have been with these kind of people.

[gardenmom5]

 I wish I could miss her but primarily I feel relief she is gone. I don't want to feel that way. I don't want to feel guilty when well meaning people from church give me condolences. I should honor my mother but it's really hard to do it. The scars run deep. 

while their condolences are given on the assumption your mother's death is a loss - accept them on the reality that you never actually had a mother.  you are sad you don't miss your mom - and you don't because of what kind of mother she was.  my mother only felt relief.  I thought I was doing really well not to have a grave dance to the tune of ding-dong the wicked witch is dead.  (I was concerned it would hurt my mother.)

not allowing a bully to bully you - is a long-term kindness to the bully.  for those whose NPD mother's are still alive, you are honoring them by erecting boundaries and not allowing them to abuse you.

 

 

Again, I really do appreciate all of the responses.  I had no idea how helpful it would be to hear that I am not the only one who is affected by this kind of behavior.  I was under no illusion that other mothers aren't up to this sort of thing, don't get me wrong, but I wasn't sure other daughters minded once they were grown-ups and leading successful, boundary-filled lives.  It helps to know that I am not the only one whose mother can still get to her.  My policy is usually not to engage--I send her chatty emails about the kids; she sends me crazy responses; I just send her something else about the kids and don't even acknowledge her response.  But, for once, I engaged--two sentences, "Stop it; I am not 12," and really, the vitriol that spewed forth in response was alarming.

My grandmother had been dead nearly 20 years before I heard of NPD - but it was the last puzzle piece in trying to figure things out so I could let go of the hurt and damage she did.  I've had people tell me I would miss her.  not once, not ever.  (except regarding genealogy now that I know what questions to ask - but that isn't "her", for "her") 

I tried talking to her about what my kids were doing - she ALWAYS changed the subject to what my sister's dd was doing.  I finally stopped bothering to even try.  even though I was the only one in my family who refused to suck up to her, (and got ALOT of flak for it.)  I started erecting boundaries before she died.  she got one 15 minute phone call a week, and as long as she behaved, I would let her talk.  if she got nasty, I'd say goodbye and hang up.  one lasted less than five minutes. (it was a corded phone I had to walk around the table to get back to the base.)  since she gave me every reason to believe she didn't like me (because I wouldn't suck up.), I don't think she cared if I called or not.

 

I did have fun once with my mil  (who is also NPD - though I believe for her  there is something in her brain that is blocking rationality and she really has no clue how she comes across.).   I once told her I was so glad I met her need to complain about something.  then I sat back and listened to her rant for a good 30 minutes or more about how she doesn't like to rant.  uh huh. riiiiigggghhhht.  It actually was a stress release for me.  I was talking to one of her favorite granddaughters this past weekend.  we were both agreeing about how a million dollars a day isn't enough to care for her.  this is a FAVORITE granddaughter - who was furious when someone let mil know about her baby shower because she didn't want her there.  she'd also married on the other side of the country so mil couldn't come to her wedding.

Ah, the sibling issues too.  I was the scapegoat and my sister, 9 years younger, was the golden child.  We've never been close and barely spoke even before things were cut off with my mother.  I hear she's finally moved out though.

scapegoats are more likely to see a NPD person for what they are.  the golden children are the most likely to be deceived and sucked into the mind games.  my sister was her favorite, and the most screwed up.  we are only now starting to have sporadic contact as I realized the challenges in our relationship trace to grandmother, and my mother.  

 

I think my brother is NPD - as he was also a golden child/"the boy".  he's also insufferably arrogant - but a nurse in the hospital with my mother thought he was a wonderful son and he had her convinced that I didn't deserve to be my mother's PoA. (my mother chose me when she was completely in her right mind.  she believed I was the most competent - and likely to put HER wishes and needs first.)   she was even giving him advice on how he could get control.  she was unprofessional.  in retrospect, I should have contacted her supervisor to let her know this woman needed the lesson of "stay out of patient's family politics, because you DO NOT know the facts.  the drs  . . . called me one night to say they had hospital security standing by to throw him off campus on my say-so.  they had been watching him manipulating her, and her becoming far more agitated with him around.    me . . I was home in bed.

eta: the irony is - both of his ex-wives are like my grandmother. . . . .

[Hen]

Lara,

 

yes, I worry all the time that I will become my mom or that one of my children will grow up to be N.  It does seem to run in families, but you get the whole "nuture" or "nature" debate.  Once I realized my mother had NPD, I instantly realized her father did, too - he was actually a more stereotypical type and then, looking back, I could see that his mother most likely was, too though I didn't spend much time with her so I don't know for sure.  The fact that she left her son in an orphanage (my grandfather) while she took her daughter with her to Hollywood to be a star, makes me think she was probably N.  It took my grandfather being featured in a newspaper story about the orphanage, and relatives seeing it and shaming her- to make her go get him and dump him off with relatives somewhere else. I feel sad for his childhood but at the same time he infuriates me.  My Uncle, who is in his 50's seems to be coming along nicely with the N- my grandmother was in hospital this Summer and he only visited her twice but on the second visit security banned him from the hospital. 

 

I just finished the book "The Narcissism Epidemic" about preventing it in your kids, the biggest advice was to not give your kids empty praise for "being awesome" to love them freely, yes, but to give awards for true effort, improvement, accomplishment, not just for showing up.  It was a fascinating and horrifying read.  I can see the wisdom in this, but then it puzzles me, because my grandfather's childhood was probably very empty of any kind of praise, and yet he was N.  My mother became more selfish as she grew older, which makes me afraid that I will become like her but not realize it. 

 

she manipulated us to the end, as she was dying at home, she made sure my sister heard her apologizing to my 4 year old niece for not being a better grandmother (she lived around the block and never visited them) and promised to do better when she got better.  My sister and I cried over it and began to have doubts that she was truly N, if she could have remorse and see where she was wrong.  I realized later she made sure my sister overheard it, it was manipulation, specially since my sister had finally gotten angry with her and stood up to her, right before she got so sick, and my mother was making preparations to reel her back in. 

 

N mothers seem to make problems at weddings and other big events where it will not be all about them.  At my wedding, I had no idea about all of our disfunction, but I remember running around like crazy, trying to find her and make sure she felt like she was properly attended to- I even had a "Parents dance" instead of the father-daughter dance so she wouldn't feel left out... and---I couldn't find her at all during the reception, she went to another floor with an old friend and drank all evening.  At least she was the ignoring kind, and didn't cause a scene at my wedding, you hear lots of stories about horrible wedding behavior from N mothers.

[Lara in Colo]

Well, at MY wedding my mother, who hated my wedding idea and gave me grief about for months before, realized that my guests were loving it and became the "belle of the ball" and began the process of making my wedding all about her..... whatever.

 

I think my grandfather was NPD (I didn't know him well) from some stories I have heard-- perhaps that is where she comes from.

 

I am damaged-- not as bad as I could have been --- and I really don't want to damage my children.

 

I did come to the realization that between my apathetic father and BPD mother-- no one has ever really loved me-- until DH and he has always been a lifesaver.

[G5052]

My sister was/is the golden child -- and she became a narcissist just like my parents. She's very haughty, very me-me, mean to her kids (although she would dispute this), easily "wounded" (I can't believe you didn't remember my birthday with a card. Um, we don't speak anymore really, remember?!)

 

I think when the golden children grow up to be a narcissist it could have plenty to do with the Stockholm Syndrome -- where the prisoners start acting like the guards. She started treating me as badly as my parents were treating me.

 

 

From what I've been told and read, this is the norm.  Some pull away and find better ways of dealing with relationships.  And some follow in the footsteps of the parent.  It mostly is one way or the other when you have an NPD parent.  My sibling would deny it, but signs are all there.  The lying and passive-aggressiveness drives me batty, and there is always a subtle undercurrent that I deserve punishment and that they are above reproach.  

 

Frankly I don't deal with it.  I call them 2-3 times a year, and expect nothing in return.

[plansrme]

That could probably be another whole thread--N mothers at their daughters' weddings. In fact, what prompted this thread were two emails on the reasons she hates me, and one of them is that I supposedly did not talk to her enough at my wedding. Obviously I was mistaken in my assumption that the wedding was about me and my husband. She also claims that when I want to college and grad school, I would call home after she went to bed and talk to my dad because I knew she wouldn't be awake, when I actually spent hours on the phone with her and very, very little with my dad. I probably did that inadvertently one time, and now it has been magnified in her mind to 7 straight years' worth of slights. There is no way to argue against any of this--who really remembers what happened 20 years ago?

[Mommy22alyns]

Mine didn't even bother to show up at my wedding.

 

Nor did she come visit the girls even once.

 

She claimed she was sooooo happy to be a grandmother.

 

I thought she would like me since I gave her granddaughters.

 

Boy was I wrong.

[Alicia64]

Mine didn't even bother to show up at my wedding.

 

Nor did she come visit the girls even once.

 

She claimed she was sooooo happy to be a grandmother.

 

I thought she would like me since I gave her granddaughters.

 

Boy was I wrong.

 

I didn't even have a "real" wedding. I just knew neither of my parents would allow me to have "my day." It would have been a nightmare. So we did something really small on a cliff over the ocean. We should have been alone. But unfortunately they all insisted on being there. Dh's mother is no better (sadly).

 

I thought my parents would like me because I gave the grandsons. They LOVED the grandsons until they turned about six -- and developed personalities. They don't like that personality-thing/own-opinion thing.

 

Alley

[G5052]

That could probably be another whole thread--N mothers at their daughters' weddings. In fact, what prompted this thread were two emails on the reasons she hates me, and one of them is that I supposedly did not talk to her enough at my wedding. Obviously I was mistaken in my assumption that the wedding was about me and my husband. She also claims that when I want to college and grad school, I would call home after she went to bed and talk to my dad because I knew she wouldn't be awake, when I actually spent hours on the phone with her and very, very little with my dad. I probably did that inadvertently one time, and now it has been magnified in her mind to 7 straight years' worth of slights. There is no way to argue against any of this--who really remembers what happened 20 years ago?

 

Oh yes.  I knew that my mother would try every possible angle to ruin mine, so we had it at the church where we met, many states away.  There were of course many temper tantrums and a big show-down when I was given the "choice" of DH or her when I was back there to empty out my house and put it on the market.  I walked out, and told off my dad too.

 

Weeks later, they called me and said they were coming.  No apology.  Just coming.  It was very awkward, but she behaved. I think that being in a strange place with almost no one she knew intimidated her.

[LMD]

I'm reading this thread and nodding.  It's emotionally exhausting.  Another round has just begun after a year of no contact - she cut me off with a very nasty letter (and email, after she got my sister to read it) and is now asking if I'm ready to 'call a truce' and 'she won't mention the past' - no apology.  In her case, she is ruled by her emotions, they are the ultimate truth to her.  If she feels angry then any lashing out is completely justified, if she feels sad/sentimental then the lashing out is completely forgotten and the guilt trip starts (hello gaslighting!).

 

I know her play book so well, I've called every single step of this latest issue (since a year ago).  I was expecting this latest push.  It didn't make it any easier, I couldn't read the letter for days as it made me tear up just knowing it was there.  I had literally just had a baby days before, she was trying to play her guilt trip on my hormones.  She is usually very careful to not do it in front of other people, DH had been around a decade but last year he saw exactly what happens when you don't do what she wants.  He now concedes that I have the crazier mother.  I love my MIL, she has her moments but she is generally wonderful.

 

Yes, I'm afraid of turning out like her.  DH won't let me though, he pulls me up if I try anything that smells slightly like manipulation!

[8circles]

I am damaged-- not as bad as I could have been --- and I really don't want to damage my children.

 

I did come to the realization that between my apathetic father and BPD mother-- no one has ever really loved me-- until DH and he has always been a lifesaver.

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  I could have written this.

[FaithManor]

^{Dh and I have great moms; we are so blessed and know it. We do however, each have SIL's by marriage that are narcs, and his sister is one. My brother married one, and his brother did as well. His brother's wife is a horrible creature, but they live out of state and we have always limited the contact severely so there is not much involvement in our lives. His sister is limited to maybe 5 min. of phone conversation once per year and Christmas card that is signed and nothing more. He and MIL went to his sister's daughter's wedding, and well, it was three days of total hell for both of them. Our niece ended up screaming at her mother to get a psychiatrist and meds, or go die somewhere (her words exactly), but shut the **** up! The new son-in-law went ballistic on her, and well, before it was over, dh and his cousin had to physically remove her from the reception. Her evil ruining of everything good that happens to anyone BUT her, that takes the limelight away from her, is absolutely legendary. She is so wicked. I swear she's psychotic or something. Her official diagnosis, forced by her kids to go to the psychiatrist or be completely cut off forever, is narci. For a while she did take some meds for another condition that went with it, and she was some better. Not better, not even good, but definitely more livable for her son and daughter. However, she decided she didn't need them anymore and stopped, then the wicked became exponential. They've got her off completely, and she doesn't even know what state her son lives in...he just up and left, abandoned his job, his house, everything in order to get away from her. Dh and I, along with MIL are the only ones that know his whereabouts.}

 

^{They will not be worried about honoring her. That ship has sailed. They are now in survival mode.}

 

^{As for my brother's wife, she's abusive. Absolutely abusive, however she usually manages to keep it under control in public, and we are all smart enough to only allow contact in public places with lots of witnesses. That said, she has completely run off my brother's three sons from his previous marriage, and their adult daughter they have together. They have one more child at home, 12, and well, she is slowly but surely destroying this child. However, my brother is FINALLY doing something about it. She had been "homeschooling" my niece and put niece in a charter school 45 minutes from here, drives his daughter to school everyday, works in a library with their free internet (very thankful he has this option as a computer programmer), packs a dinner every single day except for Friday night they eat out for fun, helps her with her homework at the library, and comes home to sleep. Five days per week, my niece has very, very little to do with her mother. She has a good group of teachers, and it's a competitive charter school that ranks in the top 10% in the nation, so even though they have had to give her A LOT of tutoring to make up for the insanity of what her mother never, ever got around to teaching, she is doing well. Her English teacher, in particular, is very nurturing and very astute. She's already got my SIL's number, so to speak, and is an excellent "surrogate mother" for my niece. I have hope that "J" will survive her mother with some mental health intact if my brother can maintain this schedule for another 11 3/4 semesters. If not, I don't know what we'll do because I can't take niece while I'm still raising kids. There won't be any way to keep SIL out of my children's lives if I bring niece here. We did that with the older one and while we don't regret it one little bit, our dd had to suffer some severe crap between the mentally distraught cousin zapping our parenting time, and the psychotic aunt who kept trying to get access to dd and niece. It was a bit of a living hell and though we all came through it okay, I won't put my own children through it again.}

 

^{My understanding of narcs is that they seriously do understand exactly what they do. They are cold, calculating, evil, and fully aware of it but have no empathy for others. It's almost as if they have no conscience. I don't know how a narc differs from a sociopath...maybe it's the level of physical trauma inflicted on others such as the narc only mentally and verbally abuses his/her prey or maybe only physically abuses to a certain level, whereas the sociopath plots and executes torture and murder. Really, I don't know how psychiatrists draw the line. From my perspective, of the three we are related to, only one of them seems capable of being homicidal and that's my brother's wife. Seriously, I truly believe she has contemplated it. The look in her eyes some times makes your blood run cold. Sometimes when I have been in a public place at the same time she is there, the hair on the back of my neck has stood straight up, and I've felt chills. Seriously, the behavioral profilers at Quantico would have a field day with her!}

 

^{I really do not think it is honorable to anyone to engage in enabling such behavior. One can see to it from long distance that one's parent or sibling is placed in an appropriate nursing home, has money for personal care items, etc. One does not have to allow oneself to be victimized in order to honor the position of parent that brought me into this world. It is not dishonoring anyone to refuse to willing give him or her new victims. Also, there is a hierarchy of priorities. One can prioritize the honoring of one person over another at the expense of mental health, and physical safety...certainly children should not be fed to them like Hansel and Gretel to the witch of the woods!}

 

^Faith

[Mommy22alyns]

I didn't even have a "real" wedding. I just knew neither of my parents would allow me to have "my day." It would have been a nightmare. So we did something really small on a cliff over the ocean. We should have been alone. But unfortunately they all insisted on being there. Dh's mother is no better (sadly).

 

I thought my parents would like me because I gave the grandsons. They LOVED the grandsons until they turned about six -- and developed personalities. They don't like that personality-thing/own-opinion thing.

 

Alley

 

Isn't it sad that we had to hope that our parents  would even like us?

 

 

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  I could have written this.

 

 

Same here.

[gardenmom5]

 

N mothers seem to make problems at weddings and other big events where it will not be all about them. 

my mil was in central America. 

at her dd's bridal shower, my sil went and sat next to her dd while she opened presents.  then she whipped out a wad of $1 bills and made her "guess" what each present was before she could open it.  if she guessed correctly, she got a $1.  I was just . . . :huh:  :ohmy:  :svengo: she couldn't even allow her dd to be the center of attention at her bridal shower?  (this dd was married in another state so my mil couldn't attend her wedding.  I've no idea what happened there.)

at another dd's baby shower - she went to go sit right next to her while she was opening presents, and do something similar.  her good friend dragged her out of the room after only a few gifts had been opened, and they sat and talked in a different part of the house for the rest of the time.  bless her friend.

there's a reason her girls have, reportedly, told her she's turning into her mother.  (I noticed that decades ago, but they're only in their 20's so they're doing well to be aware of it.)

 

I'm reading this thread and nodding.  It's emotionally exhausting.  

 She is usually very careful to not do it in front of other people, DH had been around a decade but last year he saw exactly what happens when you don't do what she wants.  He now concedes that I have the crazier mother.

mil is NPD/whackadoodle (fil somewhat controlled her, and dh and his siblings are very aware of her games.  really spoils her fun.)  for years, dh told me I was just "over sensitive", conditioned response, etc. grandmother wasn't as awful as I said.  I don't remember what she did - just it was so typical/everyday behavior it wasn't worth reacting to.  however, he was stunned and said "you're right, she's as bad as you say."  that was 10 years after we were married.

[Alicia64]

Isn't it sad that we had to hope that our parents  would even like us?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now that I have my own kids I realize how completely nuts it is that we had to hope to be liked. Loving and liking your kids is just a basic instinct. Having to talk our parents into liking us is just plain crazy.

 

Alley

[LMD]

Can I just say thank you for starting this thread!  I really needed it right now, as this person is currently trying to worm their way back in to our lives.  The whole ball of emotional anxiety that comes with this is hard to deal with right now.  It's nice to know I'm not alone, or crazy...

[pdalley]

Now that I have my own kids I realize how completely nuts it is that we had to hope to be liked. Loving and liking your kids is just a basic instinct. Having to talk our parents into liking us is just plain crazy.

 

Alley

 

This. 

 

I can relate to the whole 'Mom living through me' thing. Like a lot of teenaged girls I went through a horse phase. Mom went crazy and the next thing I knew I was showing horses. Sometimes I think a reality show called 'Horse Show Moms' would be wilder than Toddlers and Tiaras. (Most horse show parents are not this way but you who have met the type know what I mean) When I finally put my foot down and quit showing and eventually quit riding I was no longer the golden child. Sadly my brother never was the golden child because he was male. 

 

The worst part was that Dad did love us both. They married entirely too young and because she was pregnant with me. He had serious issues then - drinking, abusive - and I never once faulted her for leaving him and putting a lot of distance between them. But that sort of shocked him into growing up and addressing his issues and about five years after she left with us he became a sober, responsible person who was not abusive. He was not able to read or write (I think he was undiagnosed dyslexic) and was a very shy person. He tried to make contact but she stomped out any attempt of doing so. When I got old enough I went to find him and she was livid. I tried to tell her he had changed - that people do change when they see the need. I was a traitor, etc. I was just like him - evil, mean, good for nothing... You get the picture. 

 

There's something horribly sad about a 46 year old woman who needs her amazing (she really is) step mom to remind her that she was in fact a very loved and wanted child. And it wasn't just my Dad - his whole family was missing us and loving my brother and I. She wouldn't let us even speak to them. If we hadn't had her mother - my grandmother who loved us - I don't know how either of us would have turned out. She died six months after Mom and that's the one that I'm having trouble dealing with. She was my true mother. 

 

I wish I had cut her off years before. It wasn't until DH that I finally realized how wrong she was and had the courage to put my foot down with her.  I don't know what 'broke' inside my mother. I want to get to a place where I feel sorry for her sad little life and that she died such a miserable person but I'm not there yet.

[Alicia64]

. I want to get to a place where I feel sorry for her sad little life and that she died such a miserable person but I'm not there yet.

 

DH really helped me one day when he said, "You can feel sorry for somebody with rabies -- but you can't have Christmas with them!"

 

He made me laugh. He meant more than just Christmas -- we went "no contact" and as hard as it is (because she triangulates in my sister asking for pictures and doing the "poor me" thing), it's been worth it.

 

My Gram was my angel too. I'm sure our Grandma's are around taking care of us still. I'm sure of it.

 

Alley

[Alicia64]

I'm having to be off-line today, but I wanted to suggest that we start a group for ourselves on TWTM so that we can continue to support and "talk" to each other. The Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers has been down for well over a month. I keep hoping it will come back.

 

Does somebody know how to set up a special group on here?

 

Hugs to all my "sisters,"

 

Alley

[Hen]

pdalley,

 

I'm so sorry, what a sad story about your dad and his family.

 

----about weddings, I forgot this detail about my wedding, my mother showed up in a white dress. I really don't know what went on in her mind that she thought this was the thing to do.  It's not such a taboo thing now a days for a guest, but she was in our formal family photos in white. :huh:

[gardenmom5]

 

I wish I had cut her off years before. It wasn't until DH that I finally realized how wrong she was and had the courage to put my foot down with her.  I don't know what 'broke' inside my mother. I want to get to a place where I feel sorry for her sad little life and that she died such a miserable person but I'm not there yet.

 

give yourself credit you even want to be able to feel sorry for her.  it's a process.  I started working on forgiving my grandmother . before she died (and she still treated me like an outcast), becasue I didn't want to be "that kind of person".  I was still working on it, and making slow progress, years later when I read about NPD - it was a eureka moment as it explained so much about her.  

when I'm asked about her, I can finally say " she was a very unhappy person." and leave it at that.  I've even said she would have been happier staying in the midwest state she is from - but after some contact with the extensive famiy there - I can only say I'm glad she left and we were spared from that drama because we had almost nil contact.  my mother wasn't interested in them at all.

[Impish]

Oh, ME!!

 

I have both my mom and MIL who I wholeheartedly believe to have NPD.

 

Difference being, I also beieve my mom to have AsPD (sociopath).

 

I cut my mother off over a yr ago. Healthiest thing I've ever done.
 

[pdalley]

Thanks for the support everybody. It feels better knowing I wasn't alone or imagining this whole thing. I'm sorry others had the same experience but I don't feel so alone with it anymore. And thanks to my stepmom - Dad and I had a good relationship that was moving to even closer when we suddenly lost him to unknown (heart problems).