Extended bf'ing help

[Snow]

Dd will be 3 in a couple months and she still would nurse several times a day if she could. I've been trying to reduce the number of feedings a bit and she has been throwing tantrums over it. A common example, an hour after nursing in mid afternoon, we are playing a game, and she asks to nurse in the middle of the game (I suspect she's just bored?). So I say it's not time for milk, we can have some later, should we do something else? She gets upset, starts crying about milk and ultimately starts throwing all the game pieces around the room.

 

I am happy to keep bf'ing for awhile, but I thought by now it would be more like three times a day. I feel like nursing is her default activity. If there's nothing exciting happening, if she's sad, if she's snuggly, if she's tired, she wants to nurse. Is there any way I can set limits on it without it being so difficult for her? She's never had any kind of comfort item...bf'ing is her comfort and I think that's part of the problem.

 

She's my easier child, she doesn't have tantrums much at all, except for in this one area. I'm clueless with very little experience here. Help?

[bettyandbob]

Many years ago my neighbor went to France for 3 weeks and left her 3 year old home (and her dh and her older dc). When she returned, he did ask, but she told him there was no more. That was the end for her ds. I'm sure there are cheaper ways to wean, but I like the idea of getting a trip to France.

 

 

[Chris in VA]

Maybe reflect her feelings/put them into words for her after you say no and she is having a hard time--"Oh, you really want to nurse. It makes you feel good. I see you are so upset" all in a sympathetic and tender tone. I'd add a little come-here-and-let-me-hug-you, and then maybe a bright and cheery suggestion, like "I'm going to go for a walk and look for caterpillars! Wanna come?"

[fairfarmhand]

I'd treat it the way that I would any other tantrum for any other reason.

 

Remember that nursing is only okay as long as it works for BOTH child and mommy.

 

You are allowed to set limits, even with extended bfing. So if you want/need to nurse only three times a day, then stick to it. She will be okay. Treat it like any other interaction. If she wanted to eat strawberries even though they upset her tummy, or you didn't have the money for them or whatever, you would set that limit.

 

If nursing all day is making you NOT want to nurse at all, it's okay to set the limit.

[Snow]

@betty, That's funny. I'll mention it to dh, I'm sure he'd loooove to is send me off to France and stay home with kids for three weeks. Ha!

[Snow]

Maybe reflect her feelings/put them into words for her after you say no and she is having a hard time--"Oh, you really want to nurse. It makes you feel good. I see you are so upset" all in a sympathetic and tender tone. I'd add a little come-here-and-let-me-hug-you, and then maybe a bright and cheery suggestion, like "I'm going to go for a walk and look for caterpillars! Wanna come?"

 

Thanks Chris. This is good advice and it's pretty close to what i attempt to do now and I guess it works, eventually. It just takes away more than that, like 10 min of trying to help her through it. I guess I feel like, shouldn't it be easier on both of us by now? But, clearly, I need to be more accepting of her feelings on the matter. I'm accepting on the outside, but inside, I'm like, come on girlie!

 

I'd treat it the way that I would any other tantrum for any other reason.

 

Remember that nursing is only okay as long as it works for BOTH child and mommy.

 

You are allowed to set limits, even with extended bfing. So if you want/need to nurse only three times a day, then stick to it. She will be okay.

Thank you. Until I'm writing this post and responding, I haven't realized just how I feel about it. I find at this moment, I'm feeling very preoccupied about expectations...like, is it reasonable for me to expect less per day? Or is it common that she still wants to nurse so much? Just general thoughts and questions here...

[Ellie]

Dd will be 3 in a couple months and she still would nurse several times a day if she could. I've been trying to reduce the number of feedings a bit and she has been throwing tantrums over it. A common example, an hour after nursing in mid afternoon, we are playing a game, and she asks to nurse in the middle of the game (I suspect she's just bored?). So I say it's not time for milk, we can have some later, should we do something else? She gets upset, starts crying about milk and ultimately starts throwing all the game pieces around the room.

 

I am happy to keep bf'ing for awhile, but I thought by now it would be more like three times a day. I feel like nursing is her default activity. If there's nothing exciting happening, if she's sad, if she's snuggly, if she's tired, she wants to nurse. Is there any way I can set limits on it without it being so difficult for her? She's never had any kind of comfort item...bf'ing is her comfort and I think that's part of the problem.

 

She's my easier child, she doesn't have tantrums much at all, except for in this one area. I'm clueless with very little experience here. Help?

 

B'feeding is supposed to be her comfort. It was her comfort when she was an infant, and there's no reason for it to be different now. :-)

 

What if you took a different tack: let her nurse as often as she wants when y'all are home. Maybe she feels very insecure when you try to put her off, and she's naturally upset, so if you spend a few days snuggling and nursing, maybe she'll have the forehead-smacking moment when she realizes that she can still depend on you.

 

The only limit *I* would set is a personal one: the child doesn't get to lift my shirt, thank you very much!

[Chris in VA]

Ellie, you are so kind. I love that about you and your advice. 

[fairfarmhand]

OP, it might also help if you considered why it frustrates you to be nursing so often. Is it because reality is not matching your ideal? (not a good reason to limit) or is it because of some other reason?

 

I stopped nursing early in the toddler years with my last 2 because I needed some space. I was struggling with depression with one of mine, I had four kids counting on me and I just couldn't handle the nursing any more. IOW, it wasn't good for MOMMY. I wasn't about to become a martyr over it, so I weaned. It wasn't traumatic. Instead of mid-morning nursies, we cuddled with some juice and crackers.

[Soror]

Well, I think you can lovingly set boundaries to make it acceptable to you and to her. My last 2 were both weaned during pregnancy(around 2.5) as I just couldn't stand it anymore, I've heard that is fairly common w/ the pregnancy hormones. I tried just cutting back at first though and did it as gently as I could. I think one can try to give more but sometimes there is a point when it is ok that it is not working for you. I agree w/ Ellie that I wouldn't wean or cut back just because I thought nursing at this stage wasn't what I thought it should be but I wouldn't continue nursing at this point strictly because I thought I should either, especially against my own feelings against it. Good luck!

 

eta

Fwiw all of mine have nursed heavily, bm was 90% of ds' nutrition up until 2. I didn't wean him completely until 3.5ish. I did cut him back some during pregnancy but let him pick back up again after the baby was born. My last 2 girls didn't nurse as much but were still fairly frequent. My current baby nurses almost as much as my son. She commonly has hrs long nursing sessions. I anticipate I will be nursing her longer than my last 2 girls and hopefully I can handle it mentally and physically. Most of those that nurse so infreqently that I've seen often do so because the moms use various weaning techniques, although not always intentionally.

[Sara in AZ]

Thanks Chris. This is good advice and it's pretty close to what i attempt to do now and I guess it works, eventually. It just takes away more than that, like 10 min of trying to help her through it. I guess I feel like, shouldn't it be easier on both of us by now? But, clearly, I need to be more accepting of her feelings on the matter. I'm accepting on the outside, but inside, I'm like, come on girlie!

 

Thank you. Until I'm writing this post and responding, I haven't realized just how I feel about it. I find at this moment, I'm feeling very preoccupied about expectations...like, is it reasonable for me to expect less per day? Or is it common that she still wants to nurse so much? Just general thoughts and questions here...

For reference, my youngest will be three in January, and she nurses probably 3-6 times a day. She can get really whiny and demanding about it. Sometimes I comply just because it's easier, or I distract her with some other offering of food or activity, or (I'm not proud of this) I give her my phone to play with. I've known many nursing two year olds in my life, and it is not uncommon for them to want to nurse as much as you describe. But it is completely okay for you to decide how much nursing in a day is your limit and stick to it. I've started telling DD that mom's (that's her word for them) are sleeping or tired, but they'll be available later. Hang in there!

[Ravin]

The approach I take (and am doing better with DS than I was with DD!) is to set consistent boundaries for behavior and discipline. In our case, it's that you don't get what you want because you're throwing a fit. Tantrums get ignored.

 

That said, I allow DS to nurse, generally, any time we're at home. I don't offer unless he's upset over something else (not tantrum), or else I want him to nap. I will nurse him when he's crying when he asks for it as a soothing measure when he's upset over something else entirely (a common occurence), because it helps him calm down.

 

If we're not home, I tell him to wait, and give him lots of cuddles and sympathy about how hard it is to wait, but don't give in (usually on the bus in this situation).

[happypamama]

Some moms have had success with giving the child a certain number of tokens to use -- whatever number is acceptable to you -- and every time the child nurses during the day, he/she gives Mom a token.  When all tokens are used up, milk is asleep until the next morning.  I don't know that that would work with a not-quite-3yo, but you could try.  

 

You might also limit nursing to a specific chair or something and then just happen not to be in that chair very often.

 

I've been a very extended BF'er myself, but I've also been pregnant/had a new baby by the time each of my older kids were 3, and they've naturally mostly weaned down to a couple of times a day during my pregnancy, so I don't have personal experience with limiting a 3yo, but I wish you the best of luck as you find what is the right balance for yourself and your daughter!  (And talk to me again in a few years when my current newborn is 3, and we'll see!)

[Susan in TX]

I would offer her some sort of alternative when she asks to nurse. Is there some sort of snack or other treat she really likes? You could say, "No nursing right now, but would you like a cookie and a cup of milk"? If you think she is asking to nurse because she is bored, you can redirect her to a fun activity.

 

In my experience, your daughter's behavior is normal for a nursing toddler.

 

Susan in TX

[Catherine]

I agree with fairfarmhand-it's an issue of discipline\relationship, not nursing per se. I realize now, many years later when it's too late, that I did not handle this the right way. IOW, limit-setting is critically important at this age unless you want to have a real problem on your hands later. It's no different than limit-setting with any other activity. The problem you face is teaching your dd that tantrum-throwing to get what she wants, or when she doesn't get what she wants, needs to be nipped in the bud. Just take my word for it-LOL.

 

I would simply say no, and offer no distraction, no explanation, and no substitutes! Force her to face the "no" and deal with her frustrations. Make her tantrum as boring and unproductive as possible-lock yourself in the bathroom or something. Use time out to show her that bad behavior is not going to be productive. I know now that making a kid face some totally reasonable frustration at this age is key to important later development, like patience, deferring gratification, and planning.

[Snow]

Thanks everyone for your great suggestions and thought provoking questions. Will post back more later.

[dirty ethel rackham]

I nursed all of mine well past them being verbal and the last two past age 3.  I followed the "don't offer, don't refuse, but keep them busy and don't sit down" method of gentle weaning.  I also had special rules and places.  We stopped nursing in public past a certain age except for comfort for pain that couldn't be settled otherwise.  At home, I said that all nursing had to be done in "the nursing chair" which was up in a bedroom or in bed (for early morning, naptime and evening.)  This meant leaving otherwise fun activities so there was less incentive to do so.  Also, we planned a lot more out of the house activities to keep boredom at bay.  I planned snacks to preempt demands for nursing. 

 

Sometimes older children comfort nurse more often because they are struggling with coping methods.  With my middle son, he definitely needed to comfort nurse much longer due to his then undiagnosed sensory issues.  We worked on coping strategies "out of the moment" so I wasn't put in the position of refusing to nurse.  He was an intense kid and really struggled after he self-weaned while I was pregnant with dd.  It didn't help that we moved right after he weaned.  (I almost wish we were still nursing because at least I would have had something to comfort this kid.)  With dd, it was much more about being close.  Since she was my last, I wasn't in a hurry to wean her.  She still values being close to me (which I love.) 

[greenvneck]

I don't post often, but I have experience in this area; my last two kids nursed until they were each almost four. What I found was helpful was to allow them to nurse at home each time they asked, but only until I counted to ten (usually longer at nap and bedtime, obviously). If I was okay with it at that time I would stretch out the counting. If my skin was crawling or something was cooking, etc., the counting would be much faster. It took a few days of doing that, but they got it eventually. I think knowing that they *could* nurse helped mentally, but the counting put firm boundaries into place.

 

Good luck!

[eloquacious]

The only limit *I* would set is a personal one: the child doesn't get to lift my shirt, thank you very much!

Yes! My older son is doing this all the time... Not to nurse, but to "snuggle with baby brother!" Drives me crazy.

[dirty ethel rackham]

I agree with fairfarmhand-it's an issue of discipline\relationship, not nursing per se. I realize now, many years later when it's too late, that I did not handle this the right way. IOW, limit-setting is critically important at this age unless you want to have a real problem on your hands later. It's no different than limit-setting with any other activity. The problem you face is teaching your dd that tantrum-throwing to get what she wants, or when she doesn't get what she wants, needs to be nipped in the bud. Just take my word for it-LOL.

 

I would simply say no, and offer no distraction, no explanation, and no substitutes! Force her to face the "no" and deal with her frustrations. Make her tantrum as boring and unproductive as possible-lock yourself in the bathroom or something. Use time out to show her that bad behavior is not going to be productive. I know now that making a kid face some totally reasonable frustration at this age is key to important later development, like patience, deferring gratification, and planning.

 

A possible problem with this approach is that many children associate nursing with love and comfort.  I am all for boundaries - I would not have lasted more a year of nursing without boundaries.  But telling a child no in a firm, harsh way can be the same as saying "I don't love you."  There are plenty of opportunities for teaching a child appropriate boundaries and that they don't get what they want by screaming for it.  I didn't withhold hugs for my children who needed comfort.  Thus, I didn't want to withhold nursing for the same reason.  For my sensory kid, nursing was often the only way to short circuit a 45 minute screaming jag.  I guess a mom can tell when a child is using a tantrum to "get what they want" versus having a tantrum because they are out of control and can't pull it together. 

 

[BlueTaelon]

Both of mine were still bf'ing several times a day at age 3, its frustrating for you but totally normal. All I can suggest is keep her very very busy and NEVER sit down, sitting down is just asking for a child to nurse lol:)

[fairfarmhand]

  I guess a mom can tell when a child is using a tantrum to "get what they want" versus having a tantrum because they are out of control and can't pull it together. 

 

 

yup.

[fairfarmhand]

BTW, my oldest dd has a very difficult time with nebulous stuff. She doesn't handle, Later or in a little bit well at all. She (even at age 2 almost 3) could understand After we eat our lunch sandwich and as she was closer to 3 she "got" at 1 o clock.

 

Perhaps your little one will do better if you have a set nursing time.

 

"Oh remember sweetie, we nurse after lunch." "Or you can have your next  nursie at 3 o clock"

 

"Later" and "Not right now" is awful foggy for a toddler.

 

In fact, if I were to try this approach, I would make it a point to fetch HER even if she were in the middle of something to nurse so that she knows that she won't miss out on something fun just because she is busy. It may show her that YOU enjoy and desire the nursing relationship to continue.

[Incognito]

I haven't read all the replies, but have BF older toddlers/an almost 3yo myself.  I set limits.  Nursing was done in certain places.  That way, unless I was in that place with that child, nursing didn't happen and wasn't really expected.  So by 1 1/2yo nursing was done in the one chair, on the couch, or in my bed.  I suppose in the car occassionally, but not enough for it to be a request place.

 

Also, there were certain times we nursed and that was it.  Otherwise I did other things for the child.  So child knew nursing happened in the AM, before naps, before bed... that was pretty much it (barring illness).

 

Also, if she wants to nurse, you don't just have to say no.  You want to tease out the need/desire there.  Offer a drink.  Offer a snuggle.  You can refuse to nurse and she may be upset, but if you have pretty simple and clear rules about where and when it happens, she'll get it and you can offer comfort at other times in other ways without getting a tantrum.  BUT you will get tantrums for a while establishing boundaries, is my guess.  Shouldn't take more than a few, though, before she gets it. 

[jmama]

A possible problem with this approach is that many children associate nursing with love and comfort.  I am all for boundaries - I would not have lasted more a year of nursing without boundaries.  But telling a child no in a firm, harsh way can be the same as saying "I don't love you."  There are plenty of opportunities for teaching a child appropriate boundaries and that they don't get what they want by screaming for it.  I didn't withhold hugs for my children who needed comfort.  Thus, I didn't want to withhold nursing for the same reason.  For my sensory kid, nursing was often the only way to short circuit a 45 minute screaming jag.  I guess a mom can tell when a child is using a tantrum to "get what they want" versus having a tantrum because they are out of control and can't pull it together. 

 

What she said ^. 

[Ravin]

One thing about the "not withholding hugs" and boundaries comment. I think it's acceptable to teach children young that even mom has personal boundaries that need to be respected. It's something I'm STILL working on with my 10yo,--the idea that she can't just mob me for hugs because she's upset or wants a hug. She needs to ask and/or make sure I see her coming. Kind of like not throwing a ball at someone's head before making sure they're ready to catch it.

 

I wish I'd started teaching her these boundaries younger--which is why I'm doing so with DS. He needs to ask to nurse, and if refused, needs to learn to accept it--just as he does if I say "no" to picking him up. Usually there's a reason (I'm in the middle of cooking dinner, trying to eat, etc.)

 

I totally agree that giving a concrete "when" works better than "in a little while" works better though. My son (2.5) will usually resign himself to it with a sad little "otay" when I tell him specifically when ("when we get home" or "when I'm done eating.")

 

I also try and gauge his mood before it spurs a meltdown--if I know he's tired I'll try to accommodate him because I know his little fuse is shorter.

[Caribbean Queen]

I like the idea of a concrete "when" being put into your daily routine.  Then the child doesn't have to ask, and be told no, and cry to see if you will feel he really needs to nurse.  I know some toddlers are okay with being told no, but some aren't, and putting them on a nursing schedule ends all the bargaining and discernment about whether they "really" need to nurse, and whether you should "meet his needs" vs. not "giving in to his tantrums."

 

I have some experience in this.  When my youngest daughter was two she started demanding I nurse her every 20 minutes.  She would cry pitifully from if I did not nurse her immediately after her request.  She would only nurse while laying in bed.  She'd pause to tell me I was laying on the bed in the wrong position, or laying in the wrong bed, and scream for me to move.  If I moved, then she might scream for me to move again. She would try to nurse while rolling all over the bed and doing gymnastics.  Ug!

 

The young, first-time mom Caribbean Queen would have been sure her needs were not being met, and that was causing her to act out.  I am older and wiser now, and I know two year olds are sometimes naughty.  They are not always either acting like angels, or crying for help because they have unmet needs - They are sometimes just naughty.

 

I starting only nursing her at night and at naptime.  When she screamed about it, I put her in a nearby room (with the door open) and told her to come back when she was done crying.  She cried in protest off-and-on for a few days, but it was less crying than she had done over me not nursing her "correctly" according to her unreasonable commands.  Once she got used to it, she regained her interest in things other than my boobs, and she was fine.   

 

 

[JessReplanted]

I am not an extended-nursing mom, but I heard a very funny story about a mom who rubbed lemon juice on her nipples, and then

when her toddler tried to nurse, he discovered that 'they' were 'broken.' :lol:

[Mrs Mungo]

My kids all weaned at around 2 1/2. The major thing I did was give them things to do that were more interesting to do. So, if they asked to nurse, then I might offer to go to the playground, read a story, take a walk, make a snack or get out the play dough. I found they were often using it to relieve boredom and/or get attention. Offering attention/activities in other ways seemed to help.

[gardenmom5]

I had one who hit me for six months.  I finally switched him to a bottle (he'd never take a bottle or a binky before), and purely from desperation.   turns out, he had sensory issues and the sucking was how he calmed himself.

dudeling was similar - also sensory issues.  snuggling was a much bigger deal to him.   I used to joke about getting him a dog so he'd stay in his own bed.   dh said "then we'll have him AND a dog in our bed."  (dh is okay with other people's dogs.  he doesn't really like them.  I like big dogs.)

 

so, my suggestion would be to help her learn how to self-sooth.

 

they really are all different personalities, even with weaning. one weaned herself, the other two didn't care.

 

 

eta:  my two reluctant weaners would both occasionally climb up on my lap and pretend to nurse.  they did that for at least a year after being weaned.  

[Snow]

Thanks very much everyone for your replies. It's helpful to know our issues are pretty common and the way I'm handling it now (offering distractions, sticking to a schedule) is on line with your suggestions.

 

I think I will try making nursing more boring and at the same time, slow down a bit on weaning and see if that helps make her feel more secure. Thanks again!

[kwg]

I think another key is : never sit down.

[Joanne]

I used to have a whole page on this on my now ancient blog. The summary was this:

 

When I began parenting, I believed in "child led" weaning and that a child could not ask for "too much" attention or nursing. I believed that nurture through breastfeeding was an organic, intuitive process that, if not imposed on by outside forces, created a seemless and natural progression to weaning.

 

And then I birthed a child that challenged all of my assumptions. ;-) This child reacted *poorly* to easy going responses to nursing. This child was rendered more insecure by my "yes" answers to nursing. The same child could not transition from "mommy/child" time to independent play, either. This child grew frantic with unlimited hugs. Seriously. This child challenged everything I thought I believed in terms of parenting, "AP" and child development.

 

I began to look at the child in front of me. That child did better when I had firm, predictable boundaries around interaction, including affection, hugs, nursing. I eventually limited nursing to once a day. Child thrived, and the "extended nursing" (I hate that term) was kept intact. He once got sick, and I made an exception to the "once a day, at night" rule and child's insecurity ramped up immediately.

 

So, I concluded that the "child led" ideal as I understood it was not an absolute theory. In fact, I began to question a lot of AP stuff, and began to see how AP, as a counter cultural movement, had to go to extremes in order to combat/mitigate the remote parenting that AP theory reacted to. I parenting in those years - when AP became rigid itself. This is not an uncommon dynamic of counter cultural/revolutionary movements.

 

Later, I was able to see that some children need firm boundaries. That the "say yes every time and the child will naturally grow out of the need" were parents who did not have a child like mine OR parents who were boundaryless (IMO, there is a higher percentage of that in the AP/alternative community). My child who changed things was not really asking to nurse; he was asking for security. Nursing him was not providing it.

 

I did not have to specifically limit hugs, mommy time, and nursing with all of my kids. I breastfed them all years, not months. I still believe in AP principles and ideas. I just don't believe in the dogma.

[ktgrok]

BTW, my oldest dd has a very difficult time with nebulous stuff. She doesn't handle, Later or in a little bit well at all. She (even at age 2 almost 3) could understand After we eat our lunch sandwich and as she was closer to 3 she "got" at 1 o clock.

 

Perhaps your little one will do better if you have a set nursing time.

 

"Oh remember sweetie, we nurse after lunch." "Or you can have your next  nursie at 3 o clock"

 

"Later" and "Not right now" is awful foggy for a toddler.

 

In fact, if I were to try this approach, I would make it a point to fetch HER even if she were in the middle of something to nurse so that she knows that she won't miss out on something fun just because she is busy. It may show her that YOU enjoy and desire the nursing relationship to continue.

 

 

This is what we did. I limited to wake up, nap time, and bed time. Those were specific enough that she understood. And I would suggest it. Later, she dropped her nap but we still had nursing at that time, then that dropped. Then she stopped asking in the morning. Now we are at bedtime only, and twice in the past few weeks she has forgotten. I think we are on the road to weaning totally, at almost 4. Breaks my heart, but also ready.