Slut shaming, bullying, abuse, sexual assault. Typical teens.

[*********]

 

Add all that up. No one needed to tell her to feel ashamed. She did. She felt the need to end her life! Why is it that so much focus is on her decisions leading up to the event. They made the same decisions leading up to 'the event'. The boys went the 20 steps past that. The boys performed the illegal acts. The boys were shameless in their flaunting, they were actually proud of their decisions! Yet there is discussion that she should feel ashamed? Perhaps you did not mean to make that seem like the focus of your post. There should be no talk whatsoever of her needing to feel ashamed--she got that--the boys did not.

 I don't disagree with you at all.

 

My point was that the girl is not free of her own personal responsibility in the situation. Not ALL of the blame for the horrible situation lies with the boys. 

 

I'm not sticking up for the boys at ALL. And yes, they were MORE wrong than she was. But she was still wrong.

 

Look, if I went walking around downtown Detroit with a big wad of cash hanging out of my back pocket on purpose because I wanted everyone to see how much money I had, and then someone robbed me, I think it would be disingenuous of me to then say, "Well I'm just SHOCKED and APPALLED that someone robbed me!" Most people would probably think, "Well, it's awful you got robbed, and that guy should go to jail. But why in the *world* were your walking around downtown Detroit with a wad of cash hanging out of your pocket on purpose in the FIRST place?!"

 

How is this different? Why should the girl bear NO personal responsibility? Yes, what the boys did was WORSE than what she did. No doubt. And the fact that she ended up taking her life is tragic, surely. None of that excuses her of her own personal responsibility in the situation.

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

 

Edited September 20, 2013 by ChocolateReignRemix
What part of "please stop" is not clear?

[Danestress]

 

Someone, anyone, needed to step up and show some respect. Respect for the victim by being her advocate. Respect for those boys by calling out their reprehensible acts.

They were arrested at school and charged with sexual assault, as was the girl who was complicit and then lied to cover it up.

[Scarlett]

The girl lied to go the party. I don't recall if the article said, but it makes sense that the boys lied to their parents too in order to go. Equally bad decision

 

She wore provocative clothing. We don't know what the boys wore, but I bet they put attention into their choice of clothing too. I'm sure they picked out what was trendy, and made them look 'hot' in their mind as she did. Equal

 

She drank illegally. The boys drank illegally. Equally bad decision

 

She drank in excess. The boys drank in excess. Equally bad and dangerous decision.

 

She made out with boys. Boys made out with girls. Meh, whatever. Equal.

 

She passed out. Boys wrote on her. Stripped her. Handled her like a piece of meat. Photographed her. And then some!

 

She goes to school already ashamed. Boys go empowered and armed with shame, not feeling shamed. The boys parade and flaunt their conquest.

 

 

 

Add all that up. No one needed to tell her to feel ashamed. She did. She felt the need to end her life! Why is it that so much focus is on her decisions leading up to the event. They made the same decisions leading up to 'the event'. The boys went the 20 steps past that. The boys performed the illegal acts. The boys were shameless in their flaunting, they were actually proud of their decisions! Yet there is discussion that she should feel ashamed? Perhaps you did not mean to make that seem like the focus of your post. There should be no talk whatsoever of her needing to feel ashamed--she got that--the boys did not.

That was the focus because that is the part we were talking about. No one has said the boys bear no responsibility. They bear ALL the responsibility for raping her. The point was being made by me and others that we need to teach our kids to stay out of those situations. The boys and the girls.

 

I dont know who the people are who are high fiving the boys over what they did. No one in my world would think it was cute. We are disgusted and think they should be ashamed of what they did AND prosecuted.

 

And it is a horrible tragedy that she killed herself. I don't see how it benefits the next girl to brush aside this girl's poor decisions that night that put her in harms way.

[[email protected]]

Seven posts deleted. Last chance, folks. Discuss the issue. Even discuss each other's opinions. Just stop attacking each other's religious beliefs, personalities, lifestyle choices, etc.

 

Moderator

[GSOchristie]

So what happens if a girl consents, while drunk but not unconscious, to a boy who is equally drunk but not unconscious? The next day the girl claims rape, due to her inability to give consent, no pictures were taken or circulated. Does the boy still bear full responsibility? I realize this was not the case with Audrie, her assaulters were horrible people who deserve to be punished to the full extent of the law, but is it ever just a draw, no one at fault?

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Seven posts deleted. Last chance, folks. Discuss the issue. Even discuss each other's opinions. Just stop attacking each other's religious beliefs, personalities, lifestyle choices, etc.

 

Moderator

 

You deleted a post of mine where I explained why the boys were responsible for the rape, and I asked another member if they were familar with the police or public recently blaming any robbery victims (in reply to her example of a robbery victim being responsible for their actions).  Could you please clarify why this post was deleted?  There were no attacks against beliefs, personalities, or lifestyles in my post.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2013 by ChocolateReignRemix
You quoted a deleted post. Was attempting to stop an unproductive back-and-forth.

[BYE]

Her choice to drink alcohol as a minor was illegal. You're correct. I'm not debating that. What her parents thought about her choice of attire or her choice of friends is to be determined. However, those issues have nothing to do with her rape.

[BYE]

So what happens if a girl consents, while drunk but not unconscious, to a boy who is equally drunk but not unconscious? The next day the girl claims rape, due to her inability to give consent, no pictures were taken or circulated. Does the boy still bear full responsibility? I realize this was not the case with Audrie, her assaulters were horrible people who deserve to be punished to the full extent of the law, but is it ever just a draw, no one at fault?

[BYE]

So what happens if a girl consents, while drunk but not unconscious, to a boy who is equally drunk but not unconscious? The next day the girl claims rape, due to her inability to give consent, no pictures were taken or circulated. Does the boy still bear full responsibility? I realize this was not the case with Audrie, her assaulters were horrible people who deserve to be punished to the full extent of the law, but is it ever just a draw, no one at fault?

This is irrelevant. This isn't the issue at hand.

[Joker]

You deleted a post of mine where I explained why the boys were responsible for the rape, and I asked another member if they were familar with the police or public recently blaming any robbery victims (in reply to her example of a robbery victim being responsible for their actions).  Could you please clarify why this post was deleted?  There were no attacks against beliefs, personalities, or lifestyles in my post.

 

If your post included a quote of a now deleted post, then your post will disappear as well.

[Danestress]

This is irrelevant. This isn't the issue at hand.

But it is a good question, and if you have teenagers to talk to, it isn't irrelevant at all. How drunk is "too drunk" to consent to sex? Just a drink or two impairs judgment. Does two drinks render woman unable to consent? Or is it a BAC that matters? Often rapes is not reported until much later. Is the degree of intoxication that renders a woman unable to consent the same for men and women? If a woman sober woman has sex with a drunk man, is she guilty of rape even if he seemed willing?

[BYE]

Just to clarify? I can't say anything about these being moral issues in regards to people believing she should be ashamed and not criminal issues as in what the boys did?

[Scarlett]

Her choice to drink alcohol as a minor was illegal. You're correct. I'm not debating that. What her parents thought about her choice of attire or her choice of friends is to be determined. However, those issues have nothing to do with her rape.

I specifically mentioned drinking to passing out. If her parents approved of that then I would say they are negligent. I said nothing about her attire....but her 'friends'? They weren't friends....they were predators and she should not have been with them.

[BYE]

But it is a good question, and if you have teenagers to talk to, it isn't irrelevant at all. How drunk is "too drunk" to consent to sex? Just a drink or two impairs judgment. Does two drinks render woman unable to consent? Or is it a BAC that matters? Often ra

I would say if you aren't married to someone or you haven't been in a long term relationship with someone you better not have sex them if there's alcohol involved.

[8circles]

I do not want to live in a society that teaches that Audrie *shouldn't* be ashamed of what she did. Because she SHOULD.She should be ashamed of lying to her parents, of drinking underage, of getting drunk and making out with multiple boys in one night, of wearing see-through shorts pulled down so that her thong underwear shows. She should have parents that teach her that those things are shameful. Because they are.

 

None of that relieves the boys of their own misdeeds. None of that means they shouldn't be held accountable for violating her. It doesn't have to be an either/or situation. It's both. Both her and the boys did things they shouldn't have.

I don't think it's fair to say that the girl has NO responsibility for what happened to her in this situation. SHE chose to go to the party, knowing that she did not have parental permission to go. SHE chose to get drunk, knowing that she shouldn't even be drinking at all in the first place. I'm sure she knew that she'd lose control of her faculties once drunk. We all know that. And then those boys CHOSE to violate her. They ALL did things they shouldn't have.

 

She should be ashamed. I did some very similar things when I was just a few years older than this girl. And yes, I am now very ashamed of them. Those boys should be ashamed. Regardless of how drunk a girl is, you shouldn't be taking naked pictures of her and showing them to your friends. I just don't get how it is that we're supposed to teach our boys that girls can be as slutty and falling down drunk as they want, but you'd better be completely responsible every single second. Sorry, it just doesn't work that way. EVERYONE should be taking care to be responsible for themselves AND each other.

Your post brought me to tears. Not in a good way.

 

I'm feel really sad for you that you feel your actions as a teen reduce your value as a human being. Because that's what shame actually is. Shame says that your actions make you less worthy. I think you and I would agree that we are depraved, yet there is nothing we can do to increase our depravity. My bad behavior can't make me more depraved, it isn't possible. I'm not depraved because of my behavior any more that I can un-deprave myself with good behavior.

 

I'm sorry, Bethany, this advocacy of shame is really troubling to me. The absence of shame is not an absence of guilt for wrongdoing. (I'm not talking about the girl being guilty in her assault here)

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I would say if you aren't married to someone or you haven't been in a long term relationship with someone you better not have sex them if there's alcohol involved.

 

That is roughly the advice dh and myself have given our boys.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Going back to a running issue in this thread...

 

No matter what this young lady did (lied to her parents, drank while underage, etc), the only ones responsible for her assault are the boys who perpetrated it.  No matter what she did, if they had not made the decision to rape her then it would never have happened.

[Danestress]

I would say if you aren't married to someone or you haven't been in a long term relationship with someone you better not have sex them if there's alcohol involved.

[jewellsmommy]

That was the focus because that is the part we were talking about. No one has said the boys bear no responsibility. They bear ALL the responsibility for raping her. The point was being made by me and others that we need to teach our kids to stay out of those situations. The boys and the girls.

 

I dont know who the people are who are high fiving the boys over what they did. No one in my world would think it was cute. We are disgusted and think they should be ashamed of what they did AND prosecuted.

 

And it is a horrible tragedy that she killed herself. I don't see how it benefits the next girl to brush aside this girl's poor decisions that night that put her in harms way.

 

I get that. I know that no one is supporting the boys or washing them of responsibility in this discussion.

 

I totally agree about teaching our kids to pro-actively protect themselves as much as possible. But, I will be very cautious in teaching this because I think that one can inadvertently get the wrong idea from this line of teaching if not very careful. Such as:

 

make good choices by not getting drunk at a party, not being in the wrong place or with the wrong crowd, don't be too provocative = avoiding the likelihood of sexual assault

 

then if a girl does all the 'right' things but still somehow finds herself in a situation where she was assaulted, she might flip that equation to mean:

my assault must = I was not careful enough, Maybe I said...maybe I did..., 

  

And that could cause added grief and shame. So, even though I wholeheartedly agree that I do NOT want my children taking part in teen parties, acting provocatively and definitely not getting drunk. I do not want them to ever confuse their own actions for actions perpetrated ON or TO them. So I will be very careful in equating the two in any way.

 

It is very similar to the fact that bad drivers who do not pay attention, speed, run lights, etc. have accidents. But not everyone who has an accident is a bad driver.

[mom31257]

Going without alcohol never hurt anyone for sure.  However, there is a huge difference between the drunken parties teens have and my dh and I having wine with dinner.  Or a beer in our pool. 

 

There are teetotalers in my family and there are alcoholics who still drink and there are recovering alcoholics...my step dad has been sober for almost 30 years.  My hope is to teach my ds that alcohol is fine in moderation...

 

 

Even though you drink in moderation, have you ever overdone it? I think most people who do drink have been too drunk at some point. I would be surprised if not.

[Scarlett]

I get that. I know that no one is supporting the boys or washing them of responsibility in this discussion.

 

I totally agree about teaching our kids to pro-actively protect themselves as much as possible. But, I will be very cautious in teaching this because I think that one can inadvertently get the wrong idea from this line of teaching if not very careful. Such as:

 

make good choices by not getting drunk at a party, not being in the wrong place or with the wrong crowd, don't be too provocative = avoiding the likelihood of sexual assault

 

then if a girl does all the 'right' things but still somehow finds herself in a situation where she was assaulted, she might flip that equation to mean:

my assault must = I was not careful enough, Maybe I said...maybe I did...,

 

And that could cause added grief and shame. So, even though I wholeheartedly agree that I do NOT want my children taking part in teen parties, acting provocatively and definitely not getting drunk. I do not want them to ever confuse their own actions for actions perpetrated ON or TO them. So I will be very careful in equating the two in any way.

 

It is very similar to the fact that bad drivers who do not pay attention, speed, run lights, etc. have accidents. But not everyone who has an accident is a bad driver.

Well sure. All of that is a good conversation to have with our kids.

 

Also, a person can feel ashamed of their actions and still feel they are valuable as a human being....but shame over a specific action can stop a person from doing it again.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

make good choices by not getting drunk at a party, not being in the wrong place or with the wrong crowd, don't be too provocative = avoiding the likelihood of sexual assault

 

then if a girl does all the 'right' things but still somehow finds herself in a situation where she was assaulted, she might flip that equation to mean:

my assault must = I was not careful enough, Maybe I said...maybe I did..., 

  

And that could cause added grief and shame. So, even though I wholeheartedly agree that I do NOT want my children taking part in teen parties, acting provocatively and definitely not getting drunk. I do not want them to ever confuse their own actions for actions perpetrated ON or TO them. So I will be very careful in equating the two in any way.

 

It is very similar to the fact that bad drivers who do not pay attention, speed, run lights, etc. have accidents. But not everyone who has an accident is a bad driver.

 

^^^This this this!

 

[BYE]

I think a very good point to take away from this debate is that slut/victim shaming is still alive and well. Until it isn't, boys like this will never be made to take full responsibility for their crimes. There will always be those who blame the victim.

[marbel]

I get that. I know that no one is supporting the boys or washing them of responsibility in this discussion.

 

I totally agree about teaching our kids to pro-actively protect themselves as much as possible. But, I will be very cautious in teaching this because I think that one can inadvertently get the wrong idea from this line of teaching if not very careful. Such as:

 

<snip>

 

And people who eat right and never smoke may die of cancer.

 

People can understand the notion of improving their chances by taking certain actions (or not taking certain actions).  Kids/teens can understand that they may do nothing wrong and bad things can still happen to them.   It should be part of an ongoing conversation in the family. Examples abound in the real world.  

[Scarlett]

Even though you drink in moderation, have you ever overdone it? I think most people who do drink have been too drunk at some point. I would be surprised if not.

I will agree with that. But overdoing it in my house, with my dh, hypothetically, ;) does not put me in danger.

[Free]

This is the second thread in the past month or so, where some have talked of shame as a desirable quality to be cultivated. I just do not get this. Maybe we are using different definitions of shame? So I checked Wikipedia and this is what I found:

 

A "sense of shame" is the consciousness or awareness of shame as a state or condition. Such shame cognition may occur as a result of the experience of shame affect or, more generally, in any situation of embarrassment, dishonor, disgrace, inadequacy, humiliation, or chagrin.[3]

Furthermore:

Psychoanalyst Helen B. Lewis argued that, "The experience of shame is directly about the self, which is the focus of evaluation. In guilt, the self is not the central object of negative evaluation, but rather the thing done is the focus."[6] Similarly, Fossum and Mason say in their book Facing Shame that "While guilt is a painful feeling of regret and responsibility for one's actions, shame is a painful feeling about oneself as a person."[7]

Do people really think after reading this that shame is a good model for encouraging good behaviour?

 

As momoflaw said in her post above, shame reduces the value of a human being. It tells you, "you are not good enough". Audrie took her life because she felt shame, because she felt it so deeply within her that she felt she was not worthy anymore. That is what shame does.

[jewellsmommy]

Well sure. All of that is a good conversation to have with our kids.

 

Also, a person can feel ashamed of their actions and still feel they are valuable as a human being....but shame over a specific action can stop a person from doing it again.

 

I can agree with that. I do prefer the use of 'regret' over 'shame' though. I encourage regret about misdeeds. But we may very well mean the same thing and just be using different words.

[Murphy101]

I don't want to see Bethany picked on but, unfortunately, she said:

I don't think it's fair to say that the girl has NO responsibility for what happened to her in this situation.

 

This implies that she has some responsibility for what happened to her. I know that is what I found the most distasteful.

I think she has responsibility for putting herself in a bad situation, but I don't think that at all means she is responsible or in any way deserving of what happened to her.

 

I specifically mentioned drinking to passing out. If her parents approved of that then I would say they are negligent. I said nothing about her attire....but her 'friends'? They weren't friends....they were predators and she should not have been with them.

Exactly. That poor girl had no friends in that house or school from what I read. Honestly that place sounds like a pool of sharks just looking for any scent of blood. Seriously. What an awful horrible place. If she thought everywhere was like that? That everyone everywhere would know and treat her that way? Of course it would make any sane person suicidal. :..(

 

On the flip side of the coin... I can sorta understand the desire to escape into crap faced can't remember anything drunkenness if I was living there too. :..(

 

No that's not a mature healthy response to living in a bad situation, but she was 15, so I wouldn't expect much maturity. Even if she did have big boobs that probably made people forget she was 15. For some reason people think physical development has something to do with mental and emotional maturity and many times it just doesn't.

 

Going back to a running issue in this thread...

 

No matter what this young lady did (lied to her parents, drank while underage, etc), the only ones responsible for her assault are the boys who perpetrated it.  No matter what she did, if they had not made the decision to rape her then it would never have happened.

No one. Not one person. Has said otherwise either.

 

And to note, I'm not sure it was classified legally as rape either.

[jewellsmommy]

And people who eat right and never smoke may die of cancer.

 

People can understand the notion of improving their chances by taking certain actions (or not taking certain actions).  Kids/teens can understand that they may do nothing wrong and bad things can still happen to them.   It should be part of an ongoing conversation in the family. Examples abound in the real world.  

 

Yes they can when it comes to illness, accidents, misfortune etc. But there is something about a sexual type assault or abuse that can cause shame on a level unequal to anything else even when shame is not coming from an external source. Many victims have a hard time getting past this even when their loved ones tell them they are innocent and without shame for what happened. It just seems to come with the territory. It is worth caution to be absolute sure that an action on my part will not add even the most miniscule amt to that feeling of blame/shame/dirtiness. 

 

I am raising a child with ptsd on related grounds (we will leave it at that) and so I am very aware of how hard it is to remove those negative associations. It is NOT an easy understanding to get kids/teens to grasp when it is such a personal nature.

[BYE]

I think she has responsibility for putting herself in a bad situation, but I don't think that at all means she is responsible or in any way deserving of what happened to her.

 

 

Exactly. That poor girl had no friends in that house or school from what I read. Honestly that place sounds like a pool of sharks just looking for any scent of blood. Seriously. What an awful horrible place. If she thought everywhere was like that? That everyone everywhere would know and treat her that way? Of course it would make any sane person suicidal. :..(

 

On the flip side of the coin... I can sorta understand the desire to escape into crap faced can't remember anything drunkenness if I was living there too. :..(

 

No that's not a mature healthy response to living in a bad situation, but she was 15, so I wouldn't expect much maturity. Even if she did have big boobs that probably made people forget she was 15. For some reason people think physical development has something to do with mental and emotional maturity and many times it just doesn't.

 

 

No one. Not one person. Has said otherwise either.

 

And to note, I'm not sure it was classified legally as rape either.

You're questioning of whether it was actually classified as rape is why we're having this conversation at all. They penetrated her. A rape is a rape is a rape. They deserve the book thrown at them. These ideas that her choices "put her in this bad situation" are disgusting. "This bad situation" was a humiliating betrayal and criminal offense. Her actions before "this bad situation" have nothing to do with what those boys did to her that night and the following days.

[Caroline]

Have you ever met a girl to whom something like this has happened? Have you watched her as her dream to go to Harvard is replaced with never wanting to leave the house again? Have you watched her go from a straight A student in honors and AP classes to skipping school every day? Have you watched the light go out, and wonder if it will ever go back on again?

 

And for this poor girl, Audrie, it didn't go back on.

 

But, sometimes the light doesn't go completely out, and a girl climbs back out of the hole. And while she didn't make it to Harvard, she did come back out of her room, and she was the first person in her family to graduate from high school, and she was the first person in her family to graduate from college. I am so glad people didn't shame her. I am so glad people loved her and helped her understand it wasn't her fault. I am glad what she found was love not shame.

 

I am so sorry it didn't work that way for Audrie.

 

(I am sorry if this doesn't make sense. The whole idea of shaming Audrie and her parents , well, I don't get it. But the girl I knew, she has turned herself around. She is not her former self. Who could be? But she is strong, and she is a survivor, and I am so proud of her.)

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

No one. Not one person. Has said otherwise either.

 

And to note, I'm not sure it was classified legally as rape either.

 

Wrong.  Someone posted above: "My point was that the girl is not free of her own personal responsibility in the situation. Not ALL of the blame for the horrible situation lies with the boys."

 

I am not sure how it was classified in this case, but it ecrtainly meets the legal definition of rape.

[marbel]

This is the second thread in the past month or so, where some have talked of shame as a desirable quality to be cultivated. I just do not get this. Maybe we are using different definitions of shame? So I checked Wikipedia and this is what I found:

 

 

Furthermore:

 

Do people really think after reading this that shame is a good model for encouraging good behaviour?

 

As momoflaw said in her post above, shame reduces the value of a human being. It tells you, "you are not good enough". Audrie took her life because she felt shame, because she felt it so deeply within her that she felt she was not worthy anymore. That is what shame does.

 

I remember being told by parents and teachers "you should be ashamed of yourself for..." some infraction.  I remember even as a young adult when my mom told me she was ashamed of my attitude after I was snarky upon hearing about some misfortune a relative was enduring.  She was right:  my attitude was shameful.  I don't have any scars from my mother telling me that; quite the opposite - on the rare occasion I remember it, I realize that she was right and she made me see things in a different way.

 

So I don't think of shame in the ways quoted above.  I think there are attitudes and actions that ought to evoke shame in people.  Would anyone disagree that a person who mistreats another person out of racism should be ashamed of themselves?  

 

I think (don't know as I've never encountered it) that if I learned that one of my teens got drunk at a party I might tell him or her "you should be ashamed" of that behavior. 

 

Of course no one should be ashamed of something bad that happened to them or was done to them by others. I understand that real life is more complex than that, of course. 

 

ETA: I didn't realize that the quoted text didn't show up above.  I don't know how to change that now.

[BYE]

I've been known to tell my kids I was disappointed in certain behaviors. And now I'm rethinking that as a proper teaching technique after being a part of this thread.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Some of these posts have been a punch to the gut. When I look back at the moments I survived so that I could grow up to make a different decision another day....this girl, somebody's little girl, did not survive. She doesn't get another day. But people think that perhaps if she just had more shame?

 

When a girl takes her own life I think it can be assumed that she is somewhat acquainted with shame!!!!!!!!!

 

Pitiless. Pitiless, heartless women who have never heard the phrase, "There but for the grace of God go I." I can't imagine anything colder than this. The vast majority of the women of the earth, down through time and still today, even in the fanciest places where the pretty people go, have stories of when they can't believe they survived being FEMALE on planet earth. Me, included. Live another day, learn something new, get tougher, get smarter, but it's not getting safer out there for girls. How does anyone not see that it is dangerous to be a woman.

 

And then you make a false step or fail to have been educated or fail to be totally smart or let down your guard or make a choice that you don't see the end of...what waits for you? Shame. Blame. Being called a whore. Why did it take the whole universe a week to remember that Miley Cyrus was not alone on the VMA stage?

[8circles]

Some of these posts have been a punch to the gut. When I look back at the moments I survived so that I could grow up to make a different decision another day....this girl, somebody's little girl, did not survive. She doesn't get another day. But people think that perhaps if she just had more shame?

 

When a girl takes her own life I think it can be assumed that she is somewhat acquainted with shame!!!!!!!!!

 

Pitiless. Pitiless, heartless women who have never heard the phrase, "There but for the grace of God go I." I can't imagine anything colder than this. The vast majority of the women of the earth, down through time and still today, even in the fanciest places where the pretty people go, have stories of when they can't believe they survived being FEMALE on planet earth. Me, included. Live another day, learn something new, get tougher, get smarter, but it's not getting safer out there for girls. How does anyone not see that it is dangerous to be a woman.

 

And then you make a false step or fail to have been educated or fail to be totally smart or let down your guard or make a choice that you don't see the end of...what waits for you? Shame. Blame. Being called a whore. Why did it take the whole universe to remember that Miley Cyrus was not alone on the VMA stage?

 

Yes.  Worth posting again.

[Murphy101]

You're questioning of whether it was actually classified as rape is why we're having this conversation at all.

Oh good grief. It was a legal question. There is nothing wrong with asking for a point of clarification about how they were charged. I've written repeatedly that I think they should go to jail and have this on their records for life.

 

Quite a bit of this conversation has not been about this particular case.

 

It's also been about advising girls to not put themselves in risk of such dangerous situations, frustration with the ridiculously shark infested communities like she deal with, questions about whether all drunkenness removes consent, and other discussion.

 

Having these discussions does not mean anyone thinks the boys should get away with what they did or that any victim deserved it whether they were foolish or not.

[unsinkable]

Have you ever met a girl to whom something like this has happened? Have you watched her as her dream to go to Harvard is replaced with never wanting to leave the house again? Have you watched her go from a straight A student in honors and AP classes to skipping school every day? Have you watched the light go out, and wonder if it will ever go back on again?

 

And for this poor girl, Audrie, it didn't go back on.

 

But, sometimes the light doesn't go completely out, and a girl climbs back out of the hole. And while she didn't make it to Harvard, she did come back out of her room, and she was the first person in her family to graduate from high school, and she was the first person in her family to graduate from college. I am so glad people didn't shame her. I am so glad people loved her and helped her understand it wasn't her fault. I am glad what she found was love not shame.

 

I am so sorry it didn't work that way for Audrie.

 

(I am sorry if this doesn't make sense. The whole idea of shaming Audrie and her parents , well, I don't get it. But the girl I knew, she has turned herself around. She is not her former self. Who could be? But she is strong, and she is a survivor, and I am so proud of her.)

Give that girl my love and admiration.

[swimmermom3]

But it is a good question, and if you have teenagers to talk to, it isn't irrelevant at all. How drunk is "too drunk" to consent to sex? Just a drink or two impairs judgment. Does two drinks render woman unable to consent? Or is it a BAC that matters? Often rapes is not reported until much later. Is the degree of intoxication that renders a woman unable to consent the same for men and women? If a woman sober woman has sex with a drunk man, is she guilty of rape even if he seemed willing?

 

Danestress, it is a good question or series of questions which, now that I look at them, may be what Martha was asking and I was too dense to get. I don't know.

 

When I was researching just how consent was defined legally, I found pretty much the same definitions across the board whether it was a state law or a university policy manual. As Joanne stated, someone that is inebriated cannot legally consent to intercourse, but nowhere does it talk about the usual, mutually drunk situation.

 

One of the articles I read talked about sex being a shared experience. If one partner can't really fully participate, then it's best left alone. I am not explaining it well, but it gave me a lot to think about in talking with my kids.

 

I am not sure you can state an exact degree of intoxication for determining consent. For some girls, it could be two drinks, for others, five.  Functioning alcoholics can have a high BAC, but still be in control of their decision-making skills.

[Carol in Cal.]

The following is a true story about someone I know personally, although we have fallen out of touch.  She is about 35 now.

 

She is the middle child of 3, loved by all, a brother on either side of her in age.

 

She grew up out in the country in a place that was pretty darn boring.  Her father lived about 150 miles away--parents were divorced.  Her mother worked fulltime plus a lot of overtime.

 

When she was around 12, her mother's live in boyfriend started to molest her.  She told her mother, who kicked him out and took her to a psychiatrist.  The psychiatrist concluded that she made this up, that she had seen one too many made for TV movies.  The boyfriend moved back in.  Stuff continued to happen, and she decided that she was worthless and powerless.

 

When she entered high school she was strikingly attractive and a lot of fun to talk with.  She got invited to parties a lot.  No one questioned whether she could go, ever.  When she was 14 she got drunk at a party, and passed out.  When she woke up she was naked in bed with a guy she knew slightly, a used condom in evidence.  She left.  Every time she saw him in the halls she felt extremely self-conscious, like everyone knew, utterly embarrassed.  She couldn't stand it. 

 

Then one day when she was in class she had a nervous breakdown and started screaming and crying about the stepfather abusing her.  Finally the police were told.  They investigated.  He was arrested and a trial was scheduled.  She stopped going to school until she started to recover.  Her psychiatrist told her that it is very common for kids who were molested to be promiscuous--that that is normal.  She found this utterly embarrassing also.

 

The case against the stepfather finally resolved in a plea bargain--no contest.  3 month sentence.  3 months.

 

Nothing happened to the boy at the party.  Only the people he bragged to heard about that.

 

She decided to school herself from home on an independent study basis.  She could not fulfil foreign language or science requirements that way, but she couldn't bring herself to face the kids at school.  She was embarrassed about the stepfather, embarrassed about the party, and embarrassed to be so far behind her age cohorts.  At age 18 she went to see her school advisor to see what she had to do to graduate that year.  He told her that that was impossible, that she had at least 2- 2 1/2 years to go.  So she dropped out of school and became a waitress.

 

She has been married twice already.  She works in a bar.  I think that she ended up getting a GED, a few years down the road.  No college, I don't believe. 

 

The things that were done to her completely derailed her life. 

 

Was she perfect?  No.  Should she have gotten drunk at a party at 14?  No. 

 

But I would argue that she should not have been at a party at 14 where that could happen.  She should not have been anywhere without a responsible adult in the picture.

 

She should have been protected differently than she was by quite a few adults in her life. 

 

And for me that is the main take away about all this stuff.  Adults need to be present, and they need to be the grownups and prevent literal harm to their and society's children.  They need to take courage and do what is right.  Our choices are not Gottherd or complete hands offness.  Damn it.

 

 

 

[BYE]

Danestress, it is a good question or series of questions which, now that I look at them, may be what Martha was asking and I was too dense to get. I don't know.

 

When I was researching just how consent was defined legally, I found pretty much the same definitions across the board whether it was a state law or a university policy manual. As Joanne stated, someone that is inebriated cannot legally consent to intercourse, but nowhere does it talk about the usual, mutually drunk situation.

 

One of the articles I read talked about sex being a shared experience. If one partner can't really fully participate, then it's best left alone. I am not explaining it well, but it gave me a lot to think about in talking with my kids.

 

I am not sure you can state an exact degree of intoxication for determining consent. For some girls, it could be two drinks, for others, five. Functioning alcoholics can have a high BAC, but still be in control of their decision-making skills.

The reason I don't like talking about mutually drunk situations is because it implies both people are on an equal level. The person doing the penetrating should always be responsible for making sure a crime isn't being committed.

[Murphy101]

[quote name="Carol in Cal." post="5208226" timestamp="1379650235"

 

She should have been protected differently than she was by quite a few adults in her life. 

 

And for me that is the main take away about all this stuff.  Adults need to be present, and they need to be the grownups and prevent literal harm to their and society's children.  They need to take courage and do what is right.  Our choices are not Gottherd or complete hands offness.  Damn it.

 

Amen. I completely agree.

[swimmermom3]

Well sure. All of that is a good conversation to have with our kids.

 

Also, a person can feel ashamed of their actions and still feel they are valuable as a human being....but shame over a specific action can stop a person from doing it again.

 

It can, occasionally. Often, it can paralyze a person to the point of inaction or unrecoverable depression. It's a very dangerous weapon or tool; very few know how to wield it effectively. Many know how to utterly destroy with it.

 

[Murphy101]

The reason I don't like talking about mutually drunk situations is because it implies both people are on an equal level. The person doing the penetrating should always be responsible for making sure a crime isn't being committed.

But.. What?

 

Are you saying they are not on an equal level?

 

Because I think they are unless one is being criminal in some manner.

[BYE]

But.. What?

 

Are you saying they are not on an equal level?

 

Because I think they are unless one is being criminal in some manner.

Yes I am suggesting that. In fact, I'm stating it. One person is being penetrated and another is doing the penetrating. The penetrator has a responsibility to make sure they aren't committing a crime.

[Joker]

Yes I am suggesting that. In fact, I'm stating it. One person is being penetrated and another is doing the penetrating. The penetrator has a responsibility to make sure they aren't committing a crime.

 

Even if he's drunker than the girl? I honestly don't get your thinking at all. I just cannot agree that because one has a penis they are automatically more responsible, and I'm the mom of only girls.

[swimmermom3]

The reason I don't like talking about mutually drunk situations is because it implies both people are on an equal level. The person doing the penetrating should always be responsible for making sure a crime isn't being committed.

 

This would make sense.

 

[BYE]

Well I do. I think it's been about long enough that we've had to teach our daughters to protect themselves. And it's about time we told our sons to keep their penis in their pants if alcohols involved. There should be a greater burden on men for a change.

[Tap]

The reason I don't like talking about mutually drunk situations is because it implies both people are on an equal level. The person doing the penetrating should always be responsible for making sure a crime isn't being committed.

Huh?  That makes not sense.  You could also say that she shouldn't be taking off her pants, or spreading her legs before she makes sure she isn't committing a crime.  She is after all the one wrapping her vagina around his penis.  She has to 'let' him in.  

 

Neither of those makes NO sense to me. 

 

 

 

Sorry, I vote for Equal responsibility.