s/o At what age does homeschooling "count"?

[Kerileanne99]

There is a difference between letting a child work ahead for fun and really needing to teach a child because they are school age. A 2 year old doesn't NEED to do school. If they're that advanced, they'll probably teach themselves without curricula. They might enjoy doing the work, but if they one day decided they didn't want to do the work, you could stop and put it away for a year or two or 3 and not worry about it. If your 8 year old isn't wanting to do their work, you have a problem. You can't just put it away. You have to figure out how to educate that child when they aren't in the mood to do whatever it is they don't want to do.

I was just thinking this yesterday. You are absolutely right.

I do daily 'school' with my dd3.5, if for no other reason that she loves it and craves the routine. And whilst she is working well ahead of what is considered kindy work? There is a distinct difference. My neighbor JUST started officially homeschooling her 5-year-old for kindy, and is enrolled in CC. It really struck me how much more pressure is on her when I spoke with her after just the first week. She also has an infant.

Yes, we do try to have our school at the same time, at the table. But if my kiddo just isn't feeling it, (or I am not!) we can drop it and do whatever, for however long. They no longer have that luxury. Not to mention the official/unofficial records that need to be kept.

 

That being said, it is really discouraged around here to try to join coops or other HS groups prior to officially having school-age kids. My kiddo has a Dec bday, so isn't even scheduled to start kindy for nearly 2.5 more years. In an area where preschool and pre-K are almost always the norm? It is LONELY:)

Having a support group to chat with, kids for my dd to play with, and trips and activities as well? Would be extremely helpful as we are dealing with it now, not in 2 more years...

[SKL]

Am I the only one who doesn't see a huge shift when a child reaches a magical "school" age? I don't see much difference between what my kid did at 3 and what he's doing at 10. More advanced, more formal, more independent, yes. But a gradual shift. Maybe because he's atypical...but I see less of a shift with my other kids. I'm starting to teach my four year old to read,  the same way I read with my 7 yr old. 

The whole debate seems arbitrary and unnecessary to me.

 

To me, the shift is in the formality and intensity of the teaching/learning.  And the bigger shift is between K and 1, in my experience.  But I would still call it homeschooling in K, because if you weren't homeschooling K then the child would almost certainly be attending B&M K.  Pre-K and before is far less universal.  And the academics that a kid learns in pre-K and before are basically the same as most kids learn at home casually via songs, listening to storybooks, playing with abc/123 toys, watching Sesame Street, etc.

[lea_lpz]

I voted kindergarten because this is when kids typically would enter a brick and mortar school. Although most kids go to preschool, I have meet enough parents who work with them at home and do mommy and me type classes, go to parks, story time, etc. instead of sending them to preschool and I also know a lot of parents who only send their preschoolers 2-3 days a week to morning preschool program, so I feel like it's common for parents of preschoolers to do a lot of educational enrichment at home but might not necessarily go on to homeschool....

 

Then again my ds, 4, was asked recently where he and his sister go to school and he smiled and said, "oh, we're homeschoolers!"

[boscopup]

My oldest had a notable shift between his ability to "do school" between 4 and 5. At 4, he resisted anything that remotely resembled school. At 5, he was ready and willing to do school. If I based my future homeschooling on what my son was like at age 4, I would have freaked out at the possibility of homeschooling him!!! But when I pulled him out of school, he was actually quite easy to homeschool and very willing to be taught. At 4, he was still in "I do it myself" mode - that stage where the 4 year old is trying to become more independent, but they often aren't capable of doing quite as much as they think they can, so they'll get irritated if they can't do it and will get irritated at you if you try to help them. :lol: My youngest is in that stage now, and he's even more independent than the others, but at least he has better fine motor skills so is often able to do some of these things. :tongue_smilie:

 

I saw a similar shift with my middle son (and suspect I'll see one with my youngest). In the preschool years, they are basically adverse to school work that is "work". If they have to work at it, they shut down very easily. If it's easy, they love doing it. So it's hard to even call it "school" if all I'm doing is handing them stuff they already know how to do. My 4 year old tags along with the 1st grader in reading/spelling, but if it gets to where he has to work at it, he stops and goes somewhere else. He isn't having fun if it's not easy. All of my kids have learned a lot during this stage, but it's been more self-directed. Whereas when they reach school age, something turns on in them, and they are now ready to do some hard stuff (meaning, something "new" that they don't already know).

 

Maybe other kids don't have that shift, but mine have had that shift so far, and hopefully my youngest will in the next year. His independence is great (I hope some of that stays!), but boy does he shut down if it's the least bit difficult. He can read and write and spell, so he's well ahead of what a young 4 year old is supposed to do, but it's done on his own, not me actively trying to teach him (I teach him by him asking me questions and me answering... you know, that parenting thing ;) ).

 

As far as homeschool groups go... I can see not letting folks into a co-op, where it would be detrimental to the co-op if half the preschoolers leave when they reach K age (due to going to b&m school), but a play group? Nothing wrong with letting preschoolers into a play group, IMO. The group doesn't cave if several members leave at one time. It's just smaller for a bit when meeting at the playground. I do think homeschoolers should let moms of preschoolers hang out and learn from them. Shunning the preschool crowd is certainly not the way to go. Those moms need the advice of the wiser, more experienced homeschoolers who have graduated kids and such. I liken it to LLL - you can go to LLL meetings before you have your baby, so that you can learn some of the tips and tricks of nursing before you ever have a problem yourself. Likewise, the soon-to-be-homeschooling mom should be able to meet with homeschoolers and learn the tips and tricks of homeschooling. I know I've avoided a lot of pitfalls by hanging out here on WTM and learning from wise women who have older children than myself. Even our first year homeschooling went fabulous because of the research I'd done ahead of time, listening to the experienced homeschoolers. My homeschool support group also let me in before I'd officially pulled my son out of school (they usually let in moms of preschoolers also, as it's not a co-op, just a support group). So big thumbs up to letting the preschool crowd mingle with the homeschooling crowd. :thumbup:

[PeacefulChaos]

I chose 'other' simply because I wanted to choose both the pre-k and kindergarten options.  :)

I don't think it's homeschooling if you do it from birth.  I think that, throughout the years, parents taught children things at home as they were young - colors, shapes, the alphabet, counting, etc - and that somewhere along the way a good number of parents lost sight of that and began relying on the PS system to teach their children EVERYTHING at the earliest age they could get them in there.  Despite that being the trend among some, I still don't consider it homeschooling for a parent to actually do those things - I consider it parenting!  :D

I would say that homeschooling usually counts around Kindergarten, because that is when most will start ordering curriculum specifically for that child and such.  Or Pre-K, if the parent does that. 

I know that, personally, when someone asks, I say I have a fourth grader, a second grader, and a preschooler, because this year I do a few things with Pink (OPG, the early ETC books, math manipulatives for patterns, etc).  It isn't MUCH, but it is the first year that I've actually scheduled out something for her to do, so I consider us doing it.  Last year, I didn't consider her to be doing anything - because she wasn't; she was playing and coloring and drawing.  Sure, she knew things like her shapes, colors, and numbers, but it wasn't a scheduled out thing that we did.  She just learned those things (most of them before last year) through life.

 

ETA: I'm in the minority on here, I think, as I never intended to homeschool - I was actually sort of vehemently AGAINST homeschooling (not sort of - I was) up until the year before I started.  So Link went to private pre-k two mornings a week when he was 3 and three mornings a week when he was 4.  He attended PS Kindergarten and 1st grade.  Astro went to private pre-k two mornings a week when he was 3, but we pulled him out a little over halfway through the year because DH's job changed.  He then went to PS pre-k at age 4, and it was the same school day as Link's 1st grade day. 

Anyway, I said all that to say that I wouldn't need to start from when they were any younger than that when saying 'how long we've homeschooled' - but I would start at K if I were counting years, and we had homeschooled then. 

I also forgot to mention that regarding groups, I can definitely see why they would be something that would require a certain age for the oldest child.  That said, I'm not a part of a group or co-op, so I don't really know/care much about that sort of thing, anyway!  ;)

[Alice]

For me personally, I “counted†it when we had made the decision to homeschool. Oldest was around 3. We live in one of those areas where EVERYONE does preschool so being at home was very much a decision to homeschool. I started thinking about home education, educating myself, hanging around message boards to get ideas, etc. However, I also knew that what I was doing at that time with him wasn’t really the same as someone who had all school age kids. So I would usually refer to myself as “a future homeschooler†or something like in conversations with others.

 

For others, I don’t really care when they count it or what they call themselves. It doesn’t effect what we do. If someone who has only a 3 year old tells me she’s homeschooling I’ll gladly talk to her about it. I’m really grateful looking back at all the more experienced homeschoolers who were supportive and helpful even when my oldest was technically not of school-age (a big shout-out to Chris in VA :)). 

 

For homeschool groups, I understand why the more formal and organized ones have to have some kind of cut-off. I belong to a group that is very large and has had to turn people away who apply. They won’t accept students unless the oldest is the age of 1st grade. They save the preschool and kindergarten spots for siblings of the older kids. I understand that decision even though it was tough to wait until my oldest was old enough. I also have done things with much more informal groups and it made sense in those groups to be more inclusive. And a friend of mine and I did small homeschool preschool co-op once a week in our houses for just a handful of kids. Different groups have different goals and so it makes sense to “count†what is homeschooler differently.  

[airforcefamily]

I'd say kindergarten because 'preschool' has come to be so many different things to different people. I know people who say their two year old is in preschool when it's really daycare. I think it's ok for groups to be for k+ kids and their younger siblings. There are plenty of parents of preschool age kids who have very real intentions of homeschooling but when it comes to really keeping their child out of school, implementing curriculum, and registering as homeschoolers they decide to send their child to kindergarten. That's ok but it's hard for homeschool groups to last or be helpful for children over 4/5 years old if there are lots of these families joining then leaving each year.

 

It doesn't offend me but it is sort of funny when we say we are homeschoolers and someone else says they are too but we quickly find out they are 'homeschooling' their infant or 'doing school' with a toddler. Not really the same as having a conversation with someone who has a school age child.

[Sk8ermaiden]

Personally I don't really say I am a homeschooler yet. I tell people we intend to homeschool. However, I feel like a homeschooler finally this year. Where I live, Pre-K 4 is pretty much universal. Either you intend to keep your kids home or you have put them in *something.* We have started real curriculum that we do daily. 

 

I agree very strongly that a big part of wanting the homeschool label and seeking out groups is for the relationships. Every friend we had went off to school at 3. I wasn't expecting it so fast!!! We are strongly social people and really wanted/needed a group of friends, preferably ones that stood a chance of being around a while. We started our own (small) preschool co-op, which has been just so awesome. We do only want members who intend to homeschool past pre-K. That has been a problem in the past. 

[craftyerin]

I'm another who lives in an area where preschool of some sort is assumed at 3, and full time (all day) 5 days/week PK is assumed at 4.  When I chose not to do that I was either a. neglectful or b. a homeschooler.  The year that my kids were 4 & 3, when asked, I started to identify as someone who "will homeschool".  Last year, when my kids were 5 & 4, I identified as a homeschooler, including joining a group, etc.  By then, I was getting questions about why my kids weren't in school when we were out in public during the day.  My 4yo twins had no friends last year that were not in full time PK, except for those in our HS group.  

[NittanyJen]

Yeah, it really doesn't matter, right? People can say whatever they want.  But I will totally cop to rolling my eyes when people talk about homeschooling their pre-K kids.  Especially when they are militantly "unschooling!"  I mean, duh, right???

 

My point being neither to bash unschoolers nor those who teach their pre-K age kids at home . . . my point just being that when your kid is 4, can't you just call it life?  Do you have to call it any kind of schooling??  Why the label?

 

 

So perfectly said.  I mean . . . all but the most incompetent parents, including those whose kids are in daycare because they work, play with their kids at home, teach them their numbers and colors and letters and talk about animals and plants, and throw and catch and laugh and just talk with them and read with them when you are together . . .  and this is not with curriculum or workbooks . . . this is just . . . life!  It's just what you do with your kids, because you like them!  It doesn't matter if your kid will be identified as gifted or special needs or anything else now or in the future.  You still talk and play and sing and laugh with them.  That isn't homeschooling them; that is raising them.

 

Now that is a completely different question from shutting families out from coops; I would have no problem with a young family who is interested in homeschooling hanging out with a homeschool group, to learn, research, ask questions, and find out what homeschooling is really like.  Okay, I don't do any "real" coops with taught classes or anything-- in our Classical schedule, we don't have time for that really-- but I am all about assisting other homeschool families whenever possible.  Homeschooling is not for everyone, and there are days when it is hard.  Some days it is fantastic.  I have no regrets other than not starting sooner than we did.  But some days it just SUCKS.  Young families should hang out with experienced families and get to  know this, and lose the all roses illusion that can happen when they read blogs and books that fail to show the down side of homeschool life.  There are days when nobody likes school very much, and young families should see that this happens from time to time, but that this too shall pass, and life will be good again.

 

I say include these families.  Answer their questions and let them hang out in the social groups.  Let them see you be uncertain.  Let them see you have doubts sometimes.  Let them see you say, "oops." Let them see you turn it around and succeed anyway.  Then when they start and it isn't all a bed of roses every day, they won't get discouraged and quit.

 

But the homeschooling name?  I agree it is silly if they don't have a kid at least in Kindergarten.  If the kid isn't school age yet, you aren't schooling-- you are really just raising them :).  Some people might argue that for homeschoolers that state never changes-- well, okay.  We just differ in opinion.  It is an opinion poll after all!

[SKL]

Yes, I'm one of those full-time working mom whose kids were with a nanny (Spanish-speaking) and then in all-day preschool.  When my kids entered preschool at 2.5, my youngest knew nearly all her letters, numerals, some spelling, both could spell their names and count to 12 at least, both knew their colors and shapes etc.  (Miss A was slower because of severe vision issues.)  1.5 years later, my youngest was reading, writing, and doing simple math.  It never occurred to me that anything I did with the girls could be considered homeschooling by anyone.  We just used kiddy books/toys for their intended purpose and talked about the world around us.  It was homeschooling when I wanted it to count toward Miss E's officially required academic experience.

[8filltheheart]

So perfectly said. I mean . . . all but the most incompetent parents, including those whose kids are in daycare because they work, play with their kids at home, teach them their numbers and colors and letters and talk about animals and plants, and throw and catch and laugh and just talk with them and read with them when you are together . . . and this is not with curriculum or workbooks . . . this is just . . . life! It's just what you do with your kids, because you like them! It doesn't matter if your kid will be identified as gifted or special needs or anything else now or in the future. You still talk and play and sing and laugh with them. That isn't homeschooling them; that is raising them.!

Love your post NittanyJenn. That is pretty much my POV. (including encouraging younger moms to hang out).   One of my best friends started hanging out with us when my sr was 3 (the same age as her oldest).   She homeschools today and is in he r 13th yr.)  I think bc I tell people I deliberately do not do pre- school they somehow feel that their little kids are somehow having a superior experience bc their pre- school is scheduled and "visible." But, I simply consider what I do with my kids life and parenting. They don't live in a vacuum. ;) We have great conversations and they are very inquisitive little people. I just have a different list of priorities.

 

This is a conversation that my 3 yr old had with me a couple of weeks ago. I spontaneously made the decision for my 12th and 9th graders to read Kafka's Metamorphosis after making a comment about it here on the forum. We did our discussions in the kitchen and dd was playing in the next room. She was very concerned and told me I was teaching them wrong. Essentially what she said was, "mommy, you told me that metamorphosis is what caterpillars do to become butterflies. Humans don't do metamorphosis. You were talking about a human." LOL!

 

Just bc I don't sit my kids down and teach them to write their ABCs and 123s at 3 and 4 does not mean they aren't learning. I think this is true for most parents that are involved in their children's lives.

 

Counting from school age means you are meeting a legal definition of deliberately doing specific types of academic instruction. Legally, suggesting that k4 is the norm is a slippery slope. I do not want anyone telling me what I have to do with my 4 yr olds especially since I don't believe that it is a cognitively superior approach to have to teach them the modern "pre-school academic" skills.

[daffodil]

My state has universal public pre-k. I started calling us homeschoolers when I kept them home from public school, even though they were 4.5 and just turned 4 (and not doing much in the way of academics).

[mommymilkies]

With my oldest, I say when she turned 6 and we pulled her out of school. With the younger kids, I would say com about 3 because I have early readers and I do a full preschool type thing here with them. Everyone here goes to official preschool except the homeschoolers, so I have no problem calling my 2 yo another homeschooled kid of mine. I do understand the frustration, though. Our co-op had to stop letting in families with just young kids because almost every single one put their kids in school the next year, and some actually attended private school but had Fridays off, so they came to co-op! It's not the same. If you have no intent in actually homeschooling, you probably shouldn't call yourself one. I'm not saying you have to hs for life, but if you're just using it as a means of social fun for your kids, it prevents actual homeschool families from joining (there is limited space), and the atmosphere is much different.

[Guest]

But I do remember how exciting it was when my oldest was 3/4 years old, and how it felt like we were doing so much and really homeschooling.  I wouldn't want to dampen the excitement of another parent. 

I really, really wish more people felt this way.

 

 

Okay, I answered, but after reading this thread, I would change my reply. I chose the compulsory age option, but I didn't realize that age varied so greatly in different states. When we decided we would homeschool, when ds was 3/4, I said we were going to homeschool and were doing prek at home. When people ask how long I've been homeschooling today, I answer that this is our 4th year (K5, 1st, 2nd, and now 3rd). I agree with the people who said that it's hard once your kids get to preschool age and people are sending their kids to B&M prek and talking about which elementary school they'll be going to, and you aren't part of that crowd, and yet the homeschoolers shun you because you're not part of that crowd, either. As I see brand new homeschoolers come around now, I do see why many of you rolled your eyes at me when we were in that prek stage, but I also know how hurt and alone I felt at that stage, so I do try and be as excited as I can for them.

[Catwoman]

...and yet the homeschoolers shun you because you're not part of that crowd, either. As I see brand new homeschoolers come around now, I do see why many of you rolled your eyes at me when we were in that prek stage, but I also know how hurt and alone I felt at that stage, so I do try and be as excited as I can for them.

I have never seen that happen unless the mom said or did something to offend the other members of the group.

 

I think it all depends on the mom's attitude. When a mom of a preschooler joins a new group and starts giving established members advice on how they should be homeschooling their older children because she read a few books and is now A Qualified Expert, she's not going to be very popular. If she goes on and on about how she has been homeschooling since birth and rambles ad nauseum about how that gives her a huge advantage over everyone else who waited until their kid was the ripe old age of 4 to make their decision to homeschool, it's going to go over like a lead balloon.

 

OTOH, if a mom of a preschooler joins a group and says she's planning to homeschool her child and would like to get an early start on meeting other homeschooling families and helping her child make friends, I would assume that most groups would welcome her with open arms.

 

It truly does depend on the way a mom presents herself. I mean, obviously, we are not all welcomed into every group. Some groups are only for people of specific religious beliefs or will exclude people who don't live within a certain distance from where the group meets, or have a limited amount of space for their meetings so they have to limit the number of members they accept, or whatever. But for the most part, most homeschool groups are happy to meet new homeschooling families.

[Soror]

I joined our local group when ds was pre-school age, I think he had just turned 4 the first year. I had tried to locate a group before then but I didn't have any luck. We had decided we were going to hs before having him iirc. The ladies were friendly and I was glad to have a place to meet and learn from those who were experienced. We still welcome those with pre-schoolers in the same way, although we would prefer people join that plan to hs in the future there aren't any requirements.

 

I remember inviting a lady over whom I had met at a park day as I thought we had some things in common, well she had no intention of hs'ing and even had an older child in school. I was looking at forming friendships for the kids and also friendships w/ other hs moms. I was a bit miffed about that.

 

I agree w/ Cat as well that a lot depends on the attitude. Having the intention of hs'ing and actually hs'ing a school age child is not the same. Just as schooling elementary is not the same as highschool. I thought the comment upthread about padding your resume was funny but a bit true. It seems silly and doesn't matter in the grandscheme as there are no hs'ing police but it is nice to have a somewhat common definition when talking to other hs'ers.

[lea_lpz]

As far as homeschool groups, when we officially started homeschooling with my k'er & preschooler (3), I knew of a few homeschooling groups and was welcome to join, but since they often had park days after lunch, and my kids still napped, I didn't end up joining. We also still were plugged into the preschool community because my dd was at 5 able to KinderClass and Music Together and gymnastics in the morning at times preschool age kids were there. We did have a couple other 5 year olds attending these things, mainly because a lot of people wait to enroll kids in k at 6, but some homeschooled. She also did AHG which isn't officially a homeschool support group or organization but many of the mothers homeschool, so we did get a sense of belonging there.

 

This year we did submit an application to join a homeschool group. We also are doing a homeschool specific co-op for 4-8 year olds. I think now that my oldest is 6 we do need more of a sense of community, since she is now phased out of the preschool crowd, but if it were just my son, we'd probably still be doing Little Gym, KinderClass and Music Together and play dates for social interaction.

 

I would understand groups wanting the oldest child to be of compulsory school age or in K. It helps to weed out those who are not planning to homeschool long term and so you don't end up investing time and energy into a short term family friendship. In my community I don't feel like preschool age children who don't attend a b&m preschool would be isolated at all. When we did parent patticipation classes in our community for kids 2-5, it was very common to hear from parents that their 2 year olds did not attend preschool, 3 year old went 2 days, 4 year olds went 3 days and the pre-k (older 4's, young 5's) went 4 days a week, all either for 3-4 hours in the morning or afternoon.

[bobbeym]

I think once they're compulsory attendance age, which would be 6yo and 1st grade here in Texas.  Anything before that is just parenting and daily life.

[Desert Strawberry]

Doing preK is not the same as upper elementary. But neither is k. And first grade is not like high school. 

I guess, to me, it's a continuum. There isn't a clear line.

AFA parents who home school preK with no intention of going further, how is that different than those who plan to put kids in school once they reach middle or high school? Does that plan negate their homeschooling status?

Imo home  preK is a valid option for preK. Homeschooling k is also valid. As is homeschooling elementary school, middle school, or high school. All different experiences, but none more or less valid than any other. 

I understand the co-OP problem, but if preK is "just parenting" , why have preK level classes at all? Is it just child care? If so, then it should be limited to younger siblings only. If it's a valid educational setting, I can't see why it's necessary or how you could limit enrollment to only those who will be homeschooling in the future. We home preschooled as a trial run . If I didn't have the excellent support of my homeschool group , a crappy private preK experience, a surprise second child, and a professional setback, I may well not be homeschooling now. We just don't know what our future holds.

[PachiSusan]

I voted K, but really, does it matter in the long run what other people think? If a family has the mindset of home education from birth, then they're a home educating family in my eyes.

 

I understand the need in home schooling groups to kinda "make sure" the new entries will stay with them, but maybe BEING there with other home educating families might even help sway someone with no intention to thinking about or changing their minds TO home education.  

[NittanyJen]

Doing preK is not the same as upper elementary. But neither is k. And first grade is not like high school.

I guess, to me, it's a continuum. There isn't a clear line.

AFA parents who home school preK with no intention of going further, how is that different than those who plan to put kids in school once they reach middle or high school? Does that plan negate their homeschooling status?

Imo home preK is a valid option for preK. Homeschooling k is also valid. As is homeschooling elementary school, middle school, or high school. All different experiences, but none more or less valid than any other.

I understand the co-OP problem, but if preK is "just parenting" , why have preK level classes at all? Is it just child care? If so, then it should be limited to younger siblings only. If it's a valid educational setting, I can't see why it's necessary or how you could limit enrollment to only those who will be homeschooling in the future. We home preschooled as a trial run . If I didn't have the excellent support of my homeschool group , a crappy private preK experience, a surprise second child, and a professional setback, I may well not be homeschooling now. We just don't know what our future holds.

I don't consider preK to be real school either, since you asked. There are Headstart programs for kids who have quite literally never held a crayon before in their own homes, nor seen a book, let alone had the socialization taught at home to learn not to interrupt, or to sit still for twenty minutes at a time. Once upon a time, these kids could have caught up in kindergarten, but now there has been this weird and IMAO (in my arrogant opinion, because I don't even entertain the notion of eing wrong here) harmful trend of full-day kindergarten everywhere and pushing first grade skills into kindergarten, so it is becoming more needful to ensure those kids have the basics down before kindergarten starts.

 

There is an abundance of preK around-- so much so that as many here have noted, it is sometimes considered weird not to put your kid in preK. They often have elementary licensed teachers and curriculum and even report cards. My kids went through this-- built into their daycare day as I was working FT at the time. To me, it was just daycare, not school. Those kids were too young for school, and I was one of the few who opted my kids into half-day only kindergarten as well (older went back to daycare; younger I picked up at the bus stop). My kids are both on the gifted spectrum and ready to do neat stuff, but still needed to play first and foremost.

 

I oppose universal preK at every opportunity; I hear teachers discussing how it is necessary to take kids away from their parents as early as possible because parents don't know what to do with kids. How sad :(. We are raising a whole generation of kids being raised by people who think parents are bad for them. I am an increasingly irrelevant voice on this side of things, however, as many two-working parent families are grateful when offered preK as a reduced child care expense.

[PachiSusan]

I hear teachers discussing how it is necessary to take kids away from their parents as early as possible because parents don't know what to do with kids. How sad :(. We are raising a whole generation of kids being raised by people who think parents are bad for them. I

 

I never thought this way until the last few years. I've seen more and more of this attitude as time goes on. This year my friend had a teacher conference with her 2nd grader's teacher, who told her "Do not help your child with their homework. We know what we're doing and we don't want you to mess things up".  A letter with the same attitude came home Friday of the first week, and the previous year, the same attitude of "We know better" came through loud and clear in the communications that came home.  :(

[PachiSusan]

Awww.  I've never encountered that.  I've been in several groups and in every group there were some preschoolers.  Nobody was anything but welcoming to them.

 

Our group is the same. We have tons of babies and preschoolers. 

[Crimson Wife]

AFA parents who home school preK with no intention of going further, how is that different than those who plan to put kids in school once they reach middle or high school? Does that plan negate their homeschooling status?

The difference is that one is a single year and the other is 9-10 years (depending on whether or not a formal pre-k year was done). I wouldn't question the commitment to HS of someone whose kids were educated at home for K-8 followed by enrollment in a B&M high school. But someone who only ever plans on doing it for a year at age 4? Yep, that shows a distinct lack of commitment to HS.

[8filltheheart]

I don't consider preK to be real school either, since you asked. There are Headstart programs for kids who have quite literally never held a crayon before in their own homes, nor seen a book, let alone had the socialization taught at home to learn not to interrupt, or to sit still for twenty minutes at a time. Once upon a time, these kids could have caught up in kindergarten, but now there has been this weird and IMAO (in my arrogant opinion, because I don't even entertain the notion of eing wrong here) harmful trend of full-day kindergarten everywhere and pushing first grade skills into kindergarten, so it is becoming more needful to ensure those kids have the basics down before kindergarten starts.

 

There is an abundance of preK around-- so much so that as many here have noted, it is sometimes considered weird not to put your kid in preK. They often have elementary licensed teachers and curriculum and even report cards. My kids went through this-- built into their daycare day as I was working FT at the time. To me, it was just daycare, not school. Those kids were too young for school, and I was one of the few who opted my kids into half-day only kindergarten as well (older went back to daycare; younger I picked up at the bus stop). My kids are both on the gifted spectrum and ready to do neat stuff, but still needed to play first and foremost.

 

I oppose universal preK at every opportunity; I hear teachers discussing how it is necessary to take kids away from their parents as early as possible because parents don't know what to do with kids. How sad :(. We are raising a whole generation of kids being raised by people who think parents are bad for them. I am an increasingly irrelevant voice on this side of things, however, as many two-working parent families are grateful when offered preK as a reduced child care expense.

You echo my beliefs exactly. :(. But, I am glad you voiced them.

 

Also, the idea that pre-school academics leads to long term advantages is unproven. For a percentage of gifted spectrum kids that are radically accelerated, maybe. (I am not convinced enough of it to do "pre-school with my 3 yr old though she is obviously the most gifted of my kids just based on her ability to make connections that are definitely not in the pre-school realm. Playing and being read to are obviously not hampering her.)

 

It really breaks my heart when I hear parents talking about how their 2 yr olds need to know how to be separated from them or pressure bc their 3 or 4 yr olds aren't reading. I think we are heading toward the day when preschool is going to be considered mandatory bc of the misconception that the problem with upper academics is lack of push of academics at a younger age vs recognizing that the problem is definitely much bigger than that.

[RootAnn]

I joined a non-local HS group as a lurker when my oldest was 4 to see what the group was like. There were a couple of moms who asked the moderator who I was & she explained that since my oldest was only 4, I just wanted to stay in the background. They understood. We have a mom in our local HS group right now whose oldest is 4. She's been homeschooling her for a year already. There are some smiles-behind-hands, but everyone has been nice & helpful. My attitude is -- new blood !!! -- because some of the active moms are moving toward or actually starting high school with their oldest kids. It is helpful to have moms of youngers to plan those activities that the youngers want to do vs. olders. 

 

I count my years of experience from oldest's K5-year, even though I didn't have to file paperwork for her until she was in (my) second grade due to compulsory age.  :gnorsi:

 

Preschool isn't universal where I am and none of them are all day, every day. It isn't unusual around here to have a five year old (boy!) still tagging around with you during the day because red-shirting is common. My oldest boy is starting to get "Why aren't you in school" questions from the outside (utility, street, construction) workers that he loves to watch. Until this year, they didn't ask.  :closedeyes:

 

Still chuckling over the family in 8's post.  :lol:   

[regentrude]

Also, the idea that pre-school academics leads to long term advantages is unproven. For a percentage of gifted spectrum kids that are radically accelerated, maybe. (I am not convinced enough of it to do "pre-school with my 3 yr old though she is obviously the most gifted of my kids just based on her ability to make connections that are definitely not in the pre-school realm. Playing and being read to are obviously not hampering her.)

 

It really breaks my heart when I hear parents talking about how their 2 yr olds need to know how to be separated from them or pressure bc their 3 or 4 yr olds aren't reading. I think we are heading toward the day when preschool is going to be considered mandatory bc of the misconception that the problem with upper academics is lack of push of academics at a younger age vs recognizing that the problem is definitely much bigger than that.

 

I agree. I come from a country where formal academics do not begin until age 6 or 7, yet at age 10, there is no measurable difference in performance between them and their US peers who have been drilled with ABC flashcards at age 3. I think young children have a lot of things to learn, fine and gross motor skills, social skills, language skills, and they acquire them without formal schooling.

 

This said, I do see a need for quality preschool aka daycare for kids who come from a home environment that is not conducive to education: whose parents do not read to them, draw with them, sing with them, play with them. My kids' elementary teachers had to deal with many kids who did not have any crayons or markers or colored pencils at home and had never used any before school...

But I do not consider this "school".

And I also see a need for quality daycare for kids whose parents who, for whatever reason, both work. That environment should be stimulating and educational - not parking kids in front of a TV. But again, I don't count that as "school".

[ErinE]

I didn't mean to give the impression that I wasn't welcoming to potential HS'ers or pre-K students. It's just that when the group make-up skews younger there's a different dynamic.

 

Multiple times, I've joined groups that advertised themselves as homeschooling and for nearly all the families, the oldest child was 5 and below. I had the oldest child there and I was the most experienced with school-age children. Meet-ups were scheduled mid-morning because afternoons were nap-time. Field trips were only appropriate for a younger child. It was as if I'd joined a high school homeschooling group and expected them to meet at the playground.

 

We recently joined a group where there are no age requirements. Parents who plan to homeschool are welcome, but the leadership is made up of experienced HS moms. Outside of a homeschool Tae Kwon Do class, it was the largest group of middle and high school age kids I'd seen. I'm hopeful that this group will be a better fit for my children and me.

[lailasmum]

Here compulsory school age is term after fifth birthday but lots of kids are in school from 4 so I think around 4.

[Guest]

I usually say that my olders were homeschooled "from compulsory attendance age or birth, depending on your perspective" to avoid offending anyone, but it was kind of amusing when they were teens and I got advice/flames from a "homeschool teacher with many years of experience" whose only child was four years old.

 

I think that it is definitely a good idea to know who you are speaking to before you take online advice/flames too seriously.

 

Offline, I began attending Park Days when my oldest homeschooler was three, but once a month was plenty. I enjoyed following my local email list and attending odd events as "Nick's honourary auntie" between homeschoolers, but I still have no desire to present myself as a "core member" with the rising Ker. Kindy is not mandatory in my state and many things have changed.

 

I wish I had more contact with other homeschoolers of the same generation as my olders, but since I was not online until 2000, it is to be expected that my favourite authors and their other longtime readers are showing appropriate caution that random strangers on the internet are not always who they present themselves to be.

[Crimson Wife]

Multiple times, I've joined groups that advertised themselves as homeschooling and for nearly all the families, the oldest child was 5 and below. I had the oldest child there and I was the most experienced with school-age children. Meet-ups were scheduled mid-morning because afternoons were nap-time. Field trips were only appropriate for a younger child. It was as if I'd joined a high school homeschooling group and expected them to meet at the playground.

I joined a group like this and then got kicked out a few months later because I "wasn't participating enough" in the group. I'm sorry, but I had a 4th grader at the time and she needed to do real academics in the morning rather than go play at the park or go on outings to the zoo, etc. I tried to organize some afternoon events and nobody could make them because of nap time.

[Catwoman]

I joined a group like this and then got kicked out a few months later because I "wasn't participating enough" in the group. I'm sorry, but I had a 4th grader at the time and she needed to do real academics in the morning rather than go play at the park or go on outings to the zoo, etc. I tried to organize some afternoon events and nobody could make them because of nap time.

I had a similar experience. I didn't get kicked out of the group, but I stopped even trying to be involved with them. Our priorities were too different, and our schedules just didn't mesh at all.

[Desert Strawberry]

The difference is that one is a single year and the other is 9-10 years (depending on whether or not a formal pre-k year was done). I wouldn't question the commitment to HS of someone whose kids were educated at home for K-8 followed by enrollment in a B&M high school. But someone who only ever plans on doing it for a year at age 4? Yep, that shows a distinct lack of commitment to HS.

Ok. I can see this. That one year doesn't count.

What about parents who pull a kid out to "catch them up", with the intention to return them when the year is up or goals are met. Let's say the kid is elementary age. Is that family also not homeschooling?

[8filltheheart]

Ok. I can see this. That one year doesn't count.

What about parents who pull a kid out to "catch them up", with the intention to return them when the year is up or goals are met. Let's say the kid is elementary age. Is that family also not homeschooling?

I'm not really sure why it matters. ;)

 

Yes. They would be homeschooling with all the legalities involved. Preschool isn't anything other than what a parent chooses it to be. You can do it if you want to or not if you don't. It doesn't matter in the larger scheme of childhood education. Elementary skills do matter and compulsory education laws exist.

[Crimson Wife]

Ok. I can see this. That one year doesn't count.

What about parents who pull a kid out to "catch them up", with the intention to return them when the year is up or goals are met. Let's say the kid is elementary age. Is that family also not homeschooling?

Well, most of the families whom I know IRL who did this had their child enrolled in an umbrella school so it was more of an "independent study". But if the student was not enrolled in an umbrella, I guess I would call it "short term homeschooling".

[liberty5_3000]

I was homeschooled and always looked forward to having my own children to homeschool, so I have always considered us a homeschooling family even though I never would have said to anyone that my son is homeschooled until we actually started actively homeschooling him and everyone else his age started pre-k.  It really bothers me though that we can't be part of the homeschooling community here until the oldest is compulsory age - 8.  My son is first grade, we are very clearly homeschooling, but we are not welcome in either of the homeschool groups.  It makes it challenging to find friends :(

[Catwoman]

I was homeschooled and always looked forward to having my own children to homeschool, so I have always considered us a homeschooling family even though I never would have said to anyone that my son is homeschooled until we actually started actively homeschooling him and everyone else his age started pre-k. It really bothers me though that we can't be part of the homeschooling community here until the oldest is compulsory age - 8. My son is first grade, we are very clearly homeschooling, but we are not welcome in either of the homeschool groups. It makes it challenging to find friends :(

I have never heard of such a thing. Surely there are others who are homeschooling their children before they turn 8 years old. It is ridiculous that you and those other families wouldn't be welcomed into local homeschool groups.

 

Perhaps you should consider starting a group for the other families who have children around your son's age. I'll bet you would be very successful with it.

[Desert Strawberry]

FTR, it doesn't matter to me. I don't care when anyone starts or what they count or what they call it.

 

I haven't run into any problems IRL. I try to be clear about we have done and how long we've done it. If people are rolling their eyes behind my back, I don't know about it. 

 

I'm just curious about the definitions of others when they try to determine who is a real homeschooler and who isn't.  It seems there are some posters who have strong opinions on who qualifies to wear the badge and who doesn't. 

 

One more. What if a child starts k at 4. My oldest has a midyear bday. The local schools would have required him to wait. I didn't. We started doing homeschool activities that year. Was I wrong? 

 

Eta: he missed the cutoff by 6 days, so he wasn't so very much younger than the other kids.

 

Oh! Another one. The following year, I changed his curriculum and he placed at the k level. We repeated k. He was still only 5, and even with his ps peers. Did that first k year not count?

 

 

 

 

[PachiSusan]

FTR, it doesn't matter to me. I don't care when anyone starts or what they count or what they call it.

 

I agree.

 

Besides needing the legal definition being clear, I think this is all just indulging in yet another Mommy War of who's more qualified to bear the name "Home Schooler" than another. 

 

Don't we have enough baggage to deal with from detractors than to divide and conquer ourselves with infighting? 

[Desert Strawberry]

I agree.

 

Besides needing the legal definition being clear, I think this is all just indulging in yet another Mommy War of who's more qualified to bear the name "Home Schooler" than another. 

 

Don't we have enough baggage to deal with from detractors than to divide and conquer ourselves with infighting? 

But it's fun!  It's like a logic puzzle :)

 

PS. I love your avatar. I've wondered what you look like since the skirt thread. You are lovely.

[Bree]

I said kindergarten because I know some moms who boast of homeschooling their kids and then send them to public school for kindergarten but still want to be considered homeschoolers. i mean truthfully all of us teach our kids at home either full time or part all the time.

[SKL]

Yeah, this reminds me of a situation that bugged me.  There is this blogger who didn't feel her kid was ready for public KG, so she "homeschooled" him for a year and then sent him to public KG.  (That was planned in advance.)  She considered herself a homeschooler.  That is, until she felt the need to blog a nasty article about a young teen who was pulled from school over bullying.  All of a sudden homeschooling is an escape for wusses?  :/  I could see why a person like that wouldn't really fit in a group of people dedicated to homeschooling as a lifestyle.

[lea_lpz]

Yeah, this reminds me of a situation that bugged me. There is this blogger who didn't feel her kid was ready for public KG, so she "homeschooled" him for a year and then sent him to public KG. (That was planned in advance.) She considered herself a homeschooler. That is, until she felt the need to blog a nasty article about a young teen who was pulled from school over bullying. All of a sudden homeschooling is an escape for wusses? :/ I could see why a person like that wouldn't really fit in a group of people dedicated to homeschooling as a lifestyle.

Sheesh...

 

Oh I forgot to mention another reason I hesitated to join a homeschool group is because similarly my dd was not ready for k and I thought I would try to homeschool her for a year to accommodate her learning style with the goal of completing k so she'd be at grade level but would modify immediately if necessary to go at 1/2 pace. I figured if she wasn't ready for 1st by the end of the year, we'd just enroll her in K the following year at a public or private school or if we stuck with homeschooling finish are 2nd year of 1/2 pace K. We were doing homeschool as a trial year, so didn't feel comfortable joining a group if I wasn't sure about making a commitment, and I still had a preschool community to be involved with. I was upfront about this with other homeschooling parents I met and was not excluded from joining a homeschool group, but I didn't feel like it would be fair either, kwim?

[Crimson Wife]

I'm just curious about the definitions of others when they try to determine who is a real homeschooler and who isn't.  It seems there are some posters who have strong opinions on who qualifies to wear the badge and who doesn't.

I think it does matter because I've had numerous people claim that "all good parents are homeschoolers" when 95% of kids are enrolled in B&M schools. What they mean is that good parents try to create a home environment conducive to learning and seek out enrichment activities to supplement what their child is learning in school. Fine, but that's not "homeschooling". That's not even necessarily "afterschooling" if they aren't going through a formal curriculum or otherwise systematically teaching a subject.

 

My little one is not being homeschooled at the moment as she is enrolled FT (25 hrs/week) in a special ed preschool. I am working with her on phonics and other early literacy activities so I guess I could say I "afterschool" her, though it won't be as systematic as I plan to when she's older (assuming that she's still enrolled in PS). But definitely I don't consider her one of my HS students.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I think it is up to the parent.  Our homeschool group has many parents of littles (only) in it.  Why would we deny those people the support?  Just because they may put their kids in school one day?  Because they don't yet know what it is like to teach a child to read or multiply?  They will.  Let them learn from others.  

 

Funny that homeschoolers would segregate like that.

[PachiSusan]

But it's fun!  It's like a logic puzzle :)

 

PS. I love your avatar. I've wondered what you look like since the skirt thread. You are lovely.

 

Awww, thanks! <blush>

[boscopup]

Doing preK is not the same as upper elementary. But neither is k. And first grade is not like high school. 

 

You're completely ignoring compulsory school attendance laws though. A 3 year old is not legally required to go to school in any state that I know of. And while in some states, a child may not be required to go to school until age 8, they do expect some learning going on in that time, as the public school won't accept your kid as a third grader if they haven't even started learning K-level skills. You can easily do absolutely NOTHING academic in the preschool years and stick your child in public school K with no problem whatsoever. Putting your child in public school 1st grade without knowing K-level skills (reading and handwriting especially) won't work though. And high school is required by law at least up to a certain age (16 or 17 in most states, I believe).

 

 

 

AFA parents who home school preK with no intention of going further, how is that different than those who plan to put kids in school once they reach middle or high school? Does that plan negate their homeschooling status?

 

 

I don't think the intention to homeschool really matters. If a child is school aged and is homeschooled, then they're homeschooled, legally. If you pull your kid out for one year in 4th grade, you must do all the legal paperwork and such per your state and follow any state rules for homeschooling. And if you put them back in a year later, your child needs to have made some progress, or they might get booted back a grade level. The parent who pulls their kid for a year is homeschooling. If they put their kid back in even farther behind (I've heard teachers complain about this), they apparently weren't very good homeschoolers, but they were homeschoolers that year. It's a legal definition.

 

I only lump K+ into the legal definition because of what I mentioned above - your child does still need to be working at the level expected of the grade even prior to compulsory age, but preschool is not expected. There are children in public schools that enter K not knowing their colors. It's quite sad, but it's somewhat expected by the school that some of the children will be that way. That's why colors, counting, letter sounds, etc. are taught in K at the beginning of the year.

 

 

 

Imo home  preK is a valid option for preK. Homeschooling k is also valid. As is homeschooling elementary school, middle school, or high school. All different experiences, but none more or less valid than any other.

 

 

Who said anything wasn't valid?

 

I don't think it matters what you do in the PreK years. I just don't call it homeschooling because it's still "parenting" at that point and there is no legal responsibility to do anything else. Parenting your child during the PreK years is certainly "valid". In fact, I expect you to parent your child! :D

 

There is no "homeschool badge". I think people get too worked up over calling themselves things. It's not a club. When I was "not schooling" my preschooler, I was not a homeschooler. That does not bother me in the least. What's wrong with not being a homeschooler when your child is 3 or 4? I wasn't a homeschooler when I was afterschooling my oldest. While I was doing some of the same curriculum I used when I pulled him out, the legal responsibility was not there. I could stop any time, and my child's formal education would continue. When I pulled him out, I was a homeschooler, legally speaking, because I signed the forms to say that I was taking responsibility for my child's education. No public or private school had that responsibility anymore. It was all on me. So if I don't do school with him for a year, I'm the one doing a bad job. If my child can't pass a standardized test, it's my fault. If my 4th grader can't write a sentence properly with a capital at the beginning and a punctuation mark at the end, it's my fault. The parent of a 3 or 4 year old has no such responsibility sitting on their shoulders... YET. And that doesn't make them any less of a person, as homeschooling doesn't make you a better person or more important or whatever. They just aren't legally homeschooling... YET. ;)

[5LittleMonkeys]

I would consider you a homeschooler once you have taken the legal steps to homeschool in your state.  I don't know of any state that requires you to register a PreK through your LEA or a cover school so I'd say that until you have a K student you are not "legally" a homeschooler.  Now, if you want to call yourself a homeschooler then go for it but understand that many who are actively homeschooling compulsory aged dc will see it differently. 

 

I only recently came to have an opinion on this topic.  I never realized how many people were out their calling themselves homeschoolers when what they are actually doing is just parenting. When I became the director of our co-op it became glaringly obvious that we had to make a distinction between "homeschooling" and "planning to homeshchool".  We have limited classrooms for our co-op so it's very important, in order for us to provide class choices for dc who are school age, to utilize those classrooms wisely.  Last year the director allowed anyone to join who said they were homeschoolers...we had people whose oldest dc were 3 years old joining. Normally we allow 1 room for nursery (birth to 3 years old) and 1 room to PreK (3-5 years old). Last year the word got out that we were doing a really fun, engaging, educational PreK program and we ended up with a huge number of PreK kids - 18 to be exact ... with more asking to join even after the cut off date.  It was ridiculous to me that we were having to decide which K-12 class was going to have to be dropped to allow another room for the PreK children.  What made it worse is that some of the parents openly admitted that they were only homeschooling PreK with every intention of putting their child into ps K.  WHAT!  It also upset me that we were having to turn down actual homeschoolers  because we can only have so many enroll per semester due to insurance. So, when I became director I created the rule that you had to have at least one child registered as a K student to enroll with us.  

 

It seems to me that people who aren't "legally" homeschooling yet are the ones who think the title of homeschooler is some type of badge to wear.  I don't get it.  :huh:

[SKL]

In my state, I could not legally register Miss E as a homeschooled KG student until 2012-13, because of her birthday.  However, she was doing KG in 2011-12.  She went on to B&M 1st grade in 2012-13.  I read up on the state requirements for homeschool KG to count, and I did all that and more, even though I wasn't actually sure how old she'd be before she could be officially accelerated.

 

I didn't attempt to join any homeschooler organizations and didn't end up needing to prove K was done, so it turned out to be irrelevant.  But there are probably folks who homeschool K before they are allowed to register for K.  So I think limiting it to only people who are registered might be unfair in some cases.  I assume exceptions would be made in a case like that.

 

I understand the need for a cutoff, but it seems homeschoolers of all people would want to avoid arbitrariness.