red-shirting boys...

[hollyh]

I was reading through another thread and this had me thinking. I have twin boy/girl 4yos.  They will turn 5 in mid-July.  School starts here in Aug.  I know there is another year for them to grow and mature. However, my dd will be totally ready emotionally and academically for school (has been for a long time).  My ds... ???  Right now he is a wild child who has absolutely no interest in learning, sitting still for more than 2 min (except he will sit for books), doesn't ever color, doesn't use a pencil, doesn't seem to retain as much info either... 

 

I'm just feeling like he is not going to be ready for K by next year.  If he was a singleton, I would strongly consider red-shirting him.  However, as a twin, I feel like I can't really do that... 

 

I know that if I am homeschooling, there is always the ability to customize, but I want to consider if I was not homeschooling b/c I'm HSing year by year.

 

Thoughts?... Anybody else have similar experiences...

[Ellie]

Speaking as someone with a July birthday, married to someone with a September birthday who grew up in a state with a December cut-off (IOW, he was a very young first-grader), I see no reason to hold him back.

[wapiti]

It is impossible to predict how much a 4 y.o. will develop over the course of an entire year and IMO way too early to jump to conclusions about "needing" to red-shirt.

 

Generally, my perspective is that I wouldn't redshirt for B&M school without a very good reason (normal boy behavior not being such a reason).  As for twins, I would try really hard to keep them in the same grade.  While they *will* develop at different rates and *will* have different strengths and weaknesses regardless, if they are in school they will be aware of their different grade levels.  They do compare what they can even if they're in separate classrooms.

[Mom22ns]

I know that if I am homeschooling, there is always the ability to customize, but I want to consider if I was not homeschooling b/c I'm HSing year by year.

 

Thoughts?... Anybody else have similar experiences...

 

Start with customizing. If you decide to put them into ps, you can decide then if he goes in the same grade as his sister or not. In a few years, he may have completely caught up or even passed her. Then again, he might never catch up. They are different people.

 

Start them together, combine as you can, customize as you need to, and don't get ahead of yourself :). 

[kbutton]

I think this article brings up some interesting points about development, learning, motivation, etc., but it's all a school-oriented discussion: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/25/opinion/sunday/dont-delay-your-kindergartners-start.html?_r=0 . I have a cousin who barely missed the fall cutoff for his school district, and he is exceptionally large for his age to boot (100%-ile on the growth chart). He is not particularly challenged, and he is rather unmotivated, which wasn't true of him in earlier grades. It makes me sad. I know another boy that excelled at first being redshirted for maturity reasons, and now he is also totally unchallenged.

 

My older son started out in a Christian school prior to HSing, and he was the second youngest in his class for the last two years (the other student is a week younger). He has a late May birthday. I would guess that about 70% of the kids in his class had birthdays before Christmas, and many had summer birthdays, making them about a year older. He did fine--actually he did much better than fine, and so did the other boy who had a close birthday. The areas in which he struggled had nothing to do with maturity per se and everything to do with his own unique quirks, which are not changing with age. If I had been able to send him to a Montessori K at four that didn't cost enormous amounts of money, I would have sent him at four. That said, he was EXHAUSTED by a half day of K, and he stopped napping at 18 months, so we know it's the schooling that tires him out. We now know that he has some exceptionalities that contribute to his quirky profile. He still can't use scissors; he still has trouble remembering how to form letters (he's 9!); he's still exhausted by 3-4 hours of school, but his academics are great. Holding him back a year would have made him totally bored, and being bored would have made him totally bombastic.

 

My second one has a December birthday, and schools here have a September cutoff. He's currently five. I sent him to preschool last year so that I could have some one-on-one time with the older one my first year of homeschooling. He came home partway through the year because he already knew everything--even though he was my child that PROTESTED every formal learning opportunity (he's compliant but very social and imaginative, not school-ish). He suddenly became ready to learn between 4 and 5 (getting glasses helped it all come together), and we just adjusted our methods to what he could tolerate and catered to his interests (like buying him a cursive writing book). 

 

I guess this is all to say that each child has different needs, and those needs do not always correlate/change with maturity or mean that the child is not ready to learn. If your child learns to read and spell but can't write, yes, that will be problem if you need to put him in a school-based first grade later, but holding a child back has risks that should be considered as well. Consider having his eyes checked by someone who works with kids a lot (if you can find a good developmental optometrist, that is even better!). Hearing screenings are a good idea too. Kids don't always know when they can't see or hear. The baseline screenings at the pediatrician's office are not necessarily going to catch everything. Best wishes!

[Freckles]

I have a twin brother. We have late summer birthdays. Actually, it's tomorrow. We will be 40. We started K the week we turned 5. I can't imagine going to the same school and being in a different grade as my twin. My point is that what ever you decide, I would keep them in the same grade.

[mrs.m]

I red-shirted (pubic school at the time) my son because he was a July birthday and I was glad I did until recently. He gravitates towards kids that are a grade ahead of his red-shirted grade and does better with them socially than the ones in his actual grade. So at church, his friends in his group moved up to middle school and he's still in grade school. Next year at CC he qualifies by age to go into Challenge A, but I'm not sure if that is where he'll be ready to go. But, again, his friends are moving up. I'm honestly considering having him skip 6th and be done with it if he shows readiness.

 

It hasn't helped with sports. He's always the youngest because they don't do it by grade but rather age.

 

At the time I did it because I didn't want him in K with other kids who were red-shirted or just beyond the Aug. cutoff and would be a full year older than him. :( It turns out, it would have been just fine!

[Soror]

I wouldn't split them up personally and if they are at home it would be really unnecessary. If you do past searches on this topic you will see it can get a bit contentious as there are those vehemently against the idea. My ds' b-day is on the local cut-off so he is technically red-shirted however considering the local culture he is in the same grade as 90%+ of boys his age. My son was a late bloomer and small as well so it worked to our advantage. I didn't officially classify him until he was 6 though as I wasn't for sure up until that point what would be the best for him. For my purposes I consider him in between 2 grades. If I have a need or desire to skip grades for him we might consider it but there is no purpose at this point and it would only serve to pull him away from his friends and same age peers in social activities now. While we are sharing anecdotes my dh had a late spring b-day and he wishes he was red-shirted. He was small and his friends were in younger grades, it is one of the many things that he disliked about school.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I also vote that it is too early to decide, and definitely too early to worry about it. I have three children close in age and (I believe) equally intelligent/capable as far as school goes. However, all were at very different levels of readiness when they were 5 and even 6. My youngest, a wild man :tongue_smilie:, was probably the least ready for a formal academic setting at Kindergarten age. The thing is though, home is nothing like a formal academic setting, so he did just fine here. I don't make my kids do K; I just teach them to read and we play at math. That can be done in less than half an hour a day, leaving plenty of time for running wild. By first grade, he was able to sit a little longer and matured into more seatwork. He is in second grade this year, and he is right on target, growing into a longer school day very nicely.

 

Just keep in mind that high energy does not equal less readiness for learning, just less tolerance for sitting still. :lol: Although you are playing it by year, understand that you can make exceptional progress in a short bursts when you are at home. You have the ability to let his maturity and physical self-control catch up to his academic potential. Again, they are separate. People who put their kids in PS on time or a year late have to make a choice of which to honor, but you do not. In your shoes, I would commit to homeschooling (at least) until maturity readiness and academic readiness merge.

[....]

I was reading through another thread and this had me thinking. I have twin boy/girl 4yos.  They will turn 5 in mid-July.  School starts here in Aug.  I know there is another year for them to grow and mature. However, my dd will be totally ready emotionally and academically for school (has been for a long time).  My ds... ???  Right now he is a wild child who has absolutely no interest in learning, sitting still for more than 2 min (except he will sit for books), doesn't ever color, doesn't use a pencil, doesn't seem to retain as much info either... 

 

 

This describes my son at that age.  His only year in a school was Kindergarten at our public school.  I pulled him out at the end of the year, because he still didn't even know his letter sounds.  I picked him up from the school a couple of times, because he had curled up in the play area and fallen asleep.  They were pulling him out every day to work with the special ed lady, because he just couldn't figure out how to read.  :(  He wasn't reading very well until closer to 3rd grade.  He's in 5th grade now and very different.  He passes his 11 yro sister in several areas.  He tested at the same reading level as her (even though she started reading much earlier) and he spells better than she does.  They do logic together (they both love logic stuff for some reason) and he's able to find the answers just as quickly as she is.  I think boys make some huge developmental leaps around 4th-5th grade.   

[SKL]

I agree that a lot can change before you have to make a definitive decision on that.

 

My kids are 3 months apart in age, with the younger being far advanced over the older academically.  I could not in good conscience put the younger into a higher grade than the older, at least not without an extremely compelling reason.  So I accelerated both kids, even though my eldest has to work very hard to keep up.

 

If my kids were twins, I would feel similarly.  I would need a very compelling reason to hold just one back.

[Wheres Toto]

I agree that it is too early to make this decision.  A LOT can change in a year.  As long as you are homeschooling, you can just meet them where they are and not designate a grade level.  If you do have to put them in public school, see where they are academically/socially at that time, and make the decision then.

 

I am not opposed to red-shirting when it is the best thing for the child.  Some school districts red-shirting is so common that a child who is not red-shirted could be two years younger than other kids in his class.   Academics also gear up much faster than they used to and some kids aren't ready.  Kindergarten isn't the same as it was 40 years ago (or even 14 years ago when my oldest went).  Dh and I both went as very young 5 year olds.

 

The schools recommendation that we red-shirt my son was actually what led us to homeschooling.  He has a late August birthday and after a year of Early Intervention, they told us not to send him to Kindy until he was 6 (he was 4 at the time).  He was/is academically advanced but definitely has social, attention, sensory, and various other issues that would have made starting an overly structured school program at 5 a problem.  So while we didn't disagree that school wasn't the right place for him at 5 years old, we followed it to a different conclusion than the school did.

[Nart]

It would be helpful to find out approximately how many kids are redshirted at the school where your kids will attend. Generally, the higher the socio-economic levels of the parents at a school, the more red-shirted kids. In very low socio-economic schools, kids aren't red shirted because the parents can not pay for private preschools and head start/state preschools do not allow a child who is kindergarten age eligible to attend. At the high poverty school where I work there aren't redshirted kids. At my son's public magnet school kindergarten ALL the summer and fall boys were redshirted except one boy. The teacher was impatient with that boy because he acted his age - he started kinder at 4 and turned 5 two months later. Other boys  in the class had just turned 6 or were about to turn six, so there were two boys who were 15 months older than the youngest boy. 

[zenjenn]

Generally, my perspective is that I wouldn't redshirt for B&M school without a very good reason (normal boy behavior not being such a reason).  As for twins, I would try really hard to keep them in the same grade.  While they *will* develop at different rates and *will* have different strengths and weaknesses regardless, if they are in school they will be aware of their different grade levels.  They do compare what they can even if they're in separate classrooms.

 

This would be my concern - keeping the twins in the same grade so that the boy doesn't develop some kind of inferiority complex. Sounds silly but.. seriously! I see it with my two who are NOT twins. It's tough.

 

Now, if you were sending him to public, my answer might be different. I think the holding back of Kinders (especially boys) can be very appropriate in this age of 7 hour Kindergarten days with (often) developmentally inappropriate academic material. While almost all developmentally normal kids who fall under the birthday deadline are capable of handling traditional Kinder, they are NOT all capable of handling the aberration that is today's Kinder in many regions. You might well be walking into a holdback scenario and that would make the inferiority complex even worse.  Homeschooling, you can actually run Kindergarten for him the way Kindergarten is SUPPOSED to be - that is, a short school day when children can explore academic basics and work on developmental skills and play. The daughter may be accelerated as you see fit, but running Kinder as Kinder is one of the benefits of homeschooling.

[Lanny]

In K4, K5 and First grade, DD was in a private brick and mortar school.  $$$$   When she was in First grade, there was a girl in her class who was repeating First grade. Her twin brother was on track.  Don't try to predict the future...     Among the 65 kids who started with DD, there were several sets of twins. They assigned them to different classrooms.   GL

[boscopup]

I wouldn't worry about it until NEXT summer.

 

My oldest was born at the end of June and was a preemie (his due date was after the Sept. 1 cutoff date here). So if he hadn't come early, he'd be in the younger grade. Anyway, at age 4, he was very resistant to any formal teaching. If it looked like "school", he wanted nothing to do with it! A year later when he turned 5, he went off to private school - not redshirted. He was fine. Socially, he does do better with kids a year younger than him, but academically, he was already beyond K level in math and reading. He did learn handwriting in K, as he was not ready to write before age 5. In fact, he learned to write his name the summer before he started K. His fine motor skills have always been his weakest point. They're not low enough to necessitate OT (or at least, not low enough for anyone to flag him as needing to be evaluated for OT), but he didn't color at all in the PreK years, and definitely didn't like writing. Now in 4th grade, he can write a couple pages (double spaced!) without problem. He doesn't like to write, but he is physically capable of it and doing fine. I don't think he'd have any trouble plopping into a 4th grade public school classroom (besides being bored in math and reading again - the reason I pulled him out to homeschool in the first place).

 

My middle son did some light "school" when he asked to at age 4, but wasn't ready for hefty handwriting instruction until 2nd semester of his K year (and he turned 6 in November). He's 6.5 now and writing is going ok. He can copy a sentence in WWE1, and he can take short words from dictation. He writes his own math worksheets, etc. He has better fine motor skills than my oldest, but STILL didn't like to color at a young age.

 

My youngest has crazy good fine motor skills and likes to write (he takes spelling words from dictation along with his big brother, just because he wants to - he's actually better at it), but he also doesn't like to color. :lol:

 

So you just never know what will happen when you get to K age. Don't worry about a 4 year old not being interested in academics. That's ok!!! I "require" school at age 5, and I keep it very short - 10-15 minutes each of phonics, handwriting, and math. Then we do plenty of good quality read-alouds. My middle son didn't spend more than 30 minutes doing written work in K last year. So even as wiggly as he is, and as much as he wants to go play in the sandbox before we even start school (he seriously asked that this morning right after I said it was time to go upstairs and start school :tongue_smilie:), his school work was (and still is) doable. That's the beauty of homeschooling - you can tailor it to your wiggly boy! :D

[lea_lpz]

I would do about a half hour with each kid one on one for seat work at their own level and combine for the rest and call them both K'ers for this year. He could surprise you or catch up to sis sooner.

[lea_lpz]

This would be my concern - keeping the twins in the same grade so that the boy doesn't develop some kind of inferiority complex. Sounds silly but.. seriously! I see it with my two who are NOT twins. It's tough.

 

Now, if you were sending him to public, my answer might be different. I think the holding back of Kinders (especially boys) can be very appropriate in this age of 7 hour Kindergarten days with (often) developmentally inappropriate academic material. While almost all developmentally normal kids who fall under the birthday deadline are capable of handling traditional Kinder, they are NOT all capable of handling the aberration that is today's Kinder in many regions. You might well be walking into a holdback scenario and that would make the inferiority complex even worse. Homeschooling, you can actually run Kindergarten for him the way Kindergarten is SUPPOSED to be - that is, a short school day when children can explore academic basics and work on developmental skills and play. The daughter may be accelerated as you see fit, but running Kinder as Kinder is one of the benefits of homeschooling.

This was really well said and I think this is why our state needed to change the cut off dates.

 

Kindergarten 30 years ago was much different, even 15 years ago, and that's why kids are not able to perform well if they are close to or newly 5 often.

 

Some core ideas:

MFW K

FIAR

Wee Folk Art

 

I also recommend reading For the Sake of the Children which lays out a Charlotte Mason approach to classical education.

 

For k, you can meet them where they are individually for math and Lang, do some of it together (sing ABC's, play ABC bingo, do some math games and calendar and a 100 Chart), and then spend 30-60 min doing read alouds and rotation of art, science, social studies, music, crafts, baking together etc.

 

We did 2 hours tops for k last year with about 30 min of that being seat work and that was fine. And feel free to break seat work up to 10 minute segments if need be. Pay attention to when your child's mind tends to wonder.

 

For example, my dd, 6, can do 30 min. and then she zones. So we do 30 min. of phonics instruction early in the day and end school with 15 minutes if reading and 15 minutes on our math worksheets.

[mermo]

I had the identical concerns 2 years ago. My b/g twins have a July 10 birthday and my DD has always liked to color, write and sit still for books. Her twin, well his nickname has been wiggles since birth!!! You would think he had an allergy to any writing implement. HS wasn't on my radar at that time so I worried. I would have them in different grades in school for only very extreme reasons.

 

We did very minimal seat work for prek, and although he grumbled sometimes he did well. They are both doing wonderful with similar reading skills and math and he is actually better with handwriting, shockingly!! He will spend a ton of focused time on art projects. I make sure he has oodles of outside time and exercise every day. I am thrilled ( and relieved) with how well academics are going.

[craftyerin]

I have b/g twins who just turned 5. My daughter is very stereotypically girly in school things.  She reads, writes, colors, talks incessantly, will narrate everything she reads and hears whether I ask her to or not.   Her twin brother is every bit as smart!  But he's not as motivated with school.  He actually reads very well, but he's super wiggly, has a MUCH shorter attention span, and doesn't like to write or draw or color AT ALL.  We are homeschooling with a long-term mentality, but I would never have considered that he wasn't ready for K this year, wiggliness or not.  Sure, he needs shorter lessons and more writing dictated to Mom, but he's so very capable and eager to learn.  It just looks different than it does for his sister!

[Haiku]

I think that putting twins in different grades would send an obvious (and undesirable) message to them.

[Arcadia]

This is one of those scenarios where one cross the bridge when they come to it. I have fraternal twins cousins. The guy is obviously academically stronger than his sister consistently. His sister is more industrious. He gets the better grades but they stay in the same grade throughout.

My younger is the one who would have a tough time in a typical public school classroom because of the way the school day is structured but would be okay with some of the private schools we toured. We are evaluating year by year "school choice".