George Zimmerman

[Mrs Mungo]

Nope, I cannot agree he is 100% responsible. I also have no issue with the neighborhood watch taking notice/reporting someone they don't recognize at night, in dark clothing, in a neighborhood with a lot of break ins.

Have you ever served on a neighborhood watch? I have and it isn't about actively patrolling in your car like a de facto security guard or police force. In fact, that is the *opposite* of what you are told in such trainings. That is why the 911 operator told Zimmerman *not* to follow Trayvon. But, Zimmerman said for the 911 operator to have the officer coming to the scene call him (Zimmerman) because he did not know where he would be. Why? Because Zimmerman was still following Martin. Confronting everyone walking through your neighborhood is NOT what neighborhood with members are told to do.

 

Zimmerman made tons of calls to police, especially about young black males. Do you honestly think it is appropriate to call the police every time a black teenager walks through your neighborhood? Do you think it is okay to confront everyone walking through your neighborhood?

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/22/george-zimmerman-s-history-of-911-calls-a-complete-log.html

 

If you will notice, in a lot of those calls he implicated people as possibly being involved in recent burglaries with *no* reason for doing so. He is calling to report people out walking *in the day and evening*.

 

According to his own statements, Zimmerman did not even know the names of the streets in the immediate area, but you suppose that he would recognize everyone who lived there?

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Have you ever served on a neighborhood watch? I have and it isn't about actively patrolling in your car like a de facto security guard or police force. In fact, that is the *opposite* of what you are told in such trainings. That is why the 911 operator told Zimmerman *not* to follow Trayvon. But, Zimmerman said for the 911 operator to have the officer coming to the scene call him (Zimmerman) because he did not know where he would be. Why? Because Zimmerman was still following Martin. Confronting everyone walking through your neighborhood is NOT what neighborhood with members are told to do.

 

Zimmerman made tons of calls to police, especially about young black males. Do you honestly think it is appropriate to call the police every time a black teenager walks through your neighborhood? Do you think it is okay to confront everyone walking through your neighborhood?

 

According to his own statements, Zimmerman did not even know the names of the streets in the immediate area, but you suppose that he would recognize everyone who lived there?

You do know that not evey call made by Zimmerman was due to what he saw, correct? His neighbors had been told to call him when a report to the police needed to be made. This belief that he was going out of his way to make reports on his own is bogus.

Zimmerman also was not patrolling the neighborhood.

[Mrs Mungo]

You do know that not evey call made by Zimmerman was due to what he saw, correct? His neighbors had been told to call him when a report to the police needed to be made. This belief that he was going out of his way to make reports on his own is bogus.

Zimmerman also was not patrolling the neighborhood.

Had not been patrolling in general or claims he was not doing so at the time? There is pretty good evidence that he had been patrolling the neighborhood. And that people had complained about his vigilante behavior.

 

(This is an older story)

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1340358

 

George Zimmerman has not been charged in the Feb. 26 shooting of Trayvon Martin, 17, who was walking home from a convenience store in Sanford, Fla., near Orlando. Zimmerman, who patrolled the Retreat at Twin Lakes development in his own car, had been called aggressive in earlier complaints to the local police and the homeowner's association, according to a homeowner who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

 

At an emergency homeowner’s association meeting on March 1, “one man was escorted out because he openly expressed his frustration because he had previously contacted the Sanford Police Department about Zimmerman approaching him and even coming to his home,†the resident wrote in an email to HuffPost. “It was also made known that there had been several complaints about George Zimmerman and his tactics" in his neighborhood watch captain role.

I think he will legally be acquitted of second degree. I think he will lose the seemingly inevitable wrongful death suit.

[poppy]

Yes, really. I find it difficult to believe that you honestly don't believe someone who is pinned down and being punched in the head by a stranger would be in fear for their life.

I find it hard to believe that you have no sympathy for Trayvon Martin, who was either attacked, or took desperate action because he feared for his OWN life.

 

As a PP said, he didn't simply run home because he little brother was there alone. Where else would he run? Zimmerman had a car, he didn't.

 

And there definitely was a chase with Zimmerman pursing. From the Chicago Tribune (http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2012/04/trayvon-martin-and-the-problematic-timeline.html)

 

Timeline:

7:09:34: Zimmerman, in his truck, spots Trayvon. He calls the non-emergency dispatch number for the police, and the call log records his call as connecting with dispatch ...

 

7:10:16: Zimmerman reports that Trayvon is “here now,â€

 

7:10:20: Trayvon becomes aware of the fact that Zimmerman is watching him. The two stare at one another, and Trayvon keeps walking....

 

7:11:14 : At this point, Trayvon appears to have walked past Zimmerman truck, possibly heading towards the cut through, where he would shortly be out of sight of Zimmerman.

 

7:11:42 – 7:11:48: There is the sound of a car door opening at this point, immediately after Zimmerman says “he’s running,†and Zimmerman starts huffing; wind noises can be heard, and Zimmerman sounds slightly breathless.

 

7:12:08 pm: Zimmerman states to the dispatcher, “he ran.†... The running/wind noises on the recording also cease abruptly at this point, and Zimmerman’s voice evens out.

 

7:13:14pm: Zimmerman has lost Trayvon.

 

7:13:41pm: Zimmerman’s phone call with dispatch ends.

 

Approx. 7:15:30 – 7:15:45pm: Zimmerman and Trayvon encounter each other for the final time

 

7:16:11 pm: The first of seven 911 calls is made by a neighbor whose house is immediately adjacent to where the shooting occurred.

 

7:16:56 pm: A gunshot is heard

[bettyandbob]

 

 

I think he will legally be acquitted of second degree. I think he will lose the seemingly inevitable wrongful death suit.

I really hope so.

If George Zimmerman had followed Neighborhood Watch training, Trayvon old be alive. It is just wrong that George Zimmerman could provoke Trayvon Martin, have to use deadly force to defend himself after his own actions started the altercation and not have any responsibility. He may not be criminally responsible, but George Zimmermans behavior from the time he saw Trayvon Martin is what led to Trayvon's death.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Had not been patrolling in general or claims he was not doing so at the time? There is pretty good evidence that he had been patrolling the neighborhood. And that people had complained about his vigilante behavior.

 

(This is an older story)

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1340358

 

And other neighbors loved him. And no, he was not patrolling that night.

 

I think he will legally be acquitted of second degree. I think he will lose the seemingly inevitable wrongful death suit.

Possibly. Apparently civil suits in Florida are difficult to win if the criminal jury finds he acted in self defense.

[Mrs Mungo]

I think it is worth pointing out that Zimmerman has a history of aggression, harassment and assault.

 

In addition to complaints of neighbors:

 

http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=16658024

 

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/03/27/10894561-zimmerman-accused-of-domestic-violence-fighting-with-a-police-officer?lite

[Mrs Mungo]

And other neighbors loved him. And no, he was not patrolling that night.

 

But, yes, he had a history of patrolling the neighborhood and harassing neighbors.

 

Possibly. Apparently civil suits in Florida are difficult to win if the criminal jury finds he acted in self defense.

Ultimately, only time will tell.

 

Eta: At the very least, I think the HOA (that is who directed people to call Zimmerman with issues and who neighbors had complained to about his harrassment) would lose a lawsuit.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I find it hard to believe that you have no sympathy for Trayvon Martin, who was either attacked, or took desperate action because he feared for his OWN life.

 

As a PP said, he didn't simply run home because he little brother was there alone. Where else would he run? Zimmerman had a car, he didn't.

 

And there definitely was a chase with Zimmerman pursing. From the Chicago Tribune (http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2012/04/trayvon-martin-and-the-problematic-timeline.html)

 

Timeline:

7:09:34: Zimmerman, in his truck, spots Trayvon. He calls the non-emergency dispatch number for the police, and the call log records his call as connecting with dispatch ...

 

7:10:16: Zimmerman reports that Trayvon is “here now,â€

 

7:10:20: Trayvon becomes aware of the fact that Zimmerman is watching him. The two stare at one another, and Trayvon keeps walking....

 

7:11:14 : At this point, Trayvon appears to have walked past Zimmerman truck, possibly heading towards the cut through, where he would shortly be out of sight of Zimmerman.

 

7:11:42 – 7:11:48: There is the sound of a car door opening at this point, immediately after Zimmerman says “he’s running,†and Zimmerman starts huffing; wind noises can be heard, and Zimmerman sounds slightly breathless.

 

7:12:08 pm: Zimmerman states to the dispatcher, “he ran.†... The running/wind noises on the recording also cease abruptly at this point, and Zimmerman’s voice evens out.

 

7:13:14pm: Zimmerman has lost Trayvon.

 

7:13:41pm: Zimmerman’s phone call with dispatch ends.

 

Approx. 7:15:30 – 7:15:45pm: Zimmerman and Trayvon encounter each other for the final time

 

7:16:11 pm: The first of seven 911 calls is made by a neighbor whose house is immediately adjacent to where the shooting occurred.

 

7:16:56 pm: A gunshot is heard

 

I do not for one second believe Martin acted in fear of his own life, and the argument that he turned around from his home because he feared for his brother is simply being weaved out of thin air.  He was chatting on the phone the entire time.  The person on the other end joked with him about Zimmerman.  This was not a kid fleeing for safety.  And did you just argue Martin couldn't flee was because Zimmerman was in a truck?  But then place the blame on Zimmerman because he exited his truck?  Come on.

 

On the call - were those wind noises from Zimmerman running, or from...the wind?  Or the rain?

 

Look at your own timeline.  Martin was at one point less than  45 second walk to his home, and then 2-3 minutes later he is in a confrontation with Zimmerman.  *IF* he turned and assaulted Zimmerman physically, then for all of GZ's mistakes Martin made the biggest one by hitting, and then pinning to the ground, someone who was engaging in a legal activity. 

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

But, yes, he had a history of patrolling the neighborhood and harassing neighbors.

 

Ultimately, only time will tell.

 

Eta: At the very least, I think the HOA (that is who directed people to call Zimmerman with issues and who neighbors had complained to about his harrassment) would lose a lawsuit.

 

I *think* the HOA settled out of court.  Ridiculous imo but no way they could win this on the merits based on public sympathy.

[poppy]

I do not for one second believe Martin acted in fear of his own life, and the argument that he turned around from his home because he feared for his brother is simply being weaved out of thin air.  He was chatting on the phone the entire time.  The person on the other end joked with him about Zimmerman.  This was not a kid fleeing for safety.  And did you just argue Martin couldn't flee was because Zimmerman was in a truck?  But then place the blame on Zimmerman because he exited his truck?  Come on.

 

On the call - were those wind noises from Zimmerman running, or from...the wind?  Or the rain?

 

Look at your own timeline.  Martin was at one point less than  45 second walk to his home, and then 2-3 minutes later he is in a confrontation with Zimmerman.  *IF* he turned and assaulted Zimmerman physically, then for all of GZ's mistakes Martin made the biggest one by hitting, and then pinning to the ground, someone who was engaging in a legal activity.

 

Sure, the noise might have been the wind, and the comment "he's running" and the huffing noises coming from GZ followed by "he ran" followed by the end of the huffing noises might all be a complete coincidence.

 

Sure, maybe GZ was following TV and coincidentally the kid decided to hit him for unrelated unknown reasons causing a self defense situation where Zimmerman had to kill him.

 

Can you also consider the slight outside possibility that George Zimmerman wasn't some innocent bystander who was randomly assaulted by a guy and luckily happened to have a gun to defend himself?

[marbel]

Sincere question here:  how would G. Zimmerman know that T. Martin was a teenager?  

 

I was just thinking about this as I read the thread tonight, trying to sort things out in my own mind... if my son, who is 16 and 5'9", was walking around in the dark, in the rain, with a hoodie on (and hood up)... I don't know that anyone could tell he is just a teenager.  

 

Not defending or criticizing either side, as I am not qualified to make a judgement on this case - just wondering about that.  

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Sure, the noise might have been the wind, and the comment "he's running" and the huffing noises coming from GZ followed by "he ran" followed by the end of the huffing noises might all be a complete coincidence.

 

Sure, maybe GZ was following TV and coincidentally the kid decided to hit him for unrelated unknown reasons causing a self defense situation where Zimmerman had to kill him.

 

Can you also consider the slight outside possibility that George Zimmerman wasn't some innocent bystander who was randomly assaulted by a guy and luckily happened to have a gun to defend himself?

Your own narrative doesn't make sense. Why did what you think of running sounds from GZ diminish after Martin ran? Why didn't Martin tell DeeDee Zimmerman was running after him (he said "following")?

If Zimmerman assaulted Martin, why were there no injuries on Martin's body indicating that happened? Why did the confrontation end with Martin on top of Zimmerman striking him?

[Mrs Mungo]

Sincere question here: how would G. Zimmerman know that T. Martin was a teenager?

 

I was just thinking about this as I read the thread tonight, trying to sort things out in my own mind... if my son, who is 16 and 5'9", was walking around in the dark, in the rain, with a hoodie on (and hood up)... I don't know that anyone could tell he is just a teenager.

 

Not defending or criticizing either side, as I am not qualified to make a judgement on this case - just wondering about that.

Nobody should be stalked, harrassed and ultimately shot and killed for walking to their local 7-11, then wandering back home while talking on their phone; I don't care how old they are. Zimmerman followed Martin for a while saying, "there is something wrong with this guy" and "I think he is on drugs." He could tell from that distance he was on drugs, but not how old he was? Zimmerman could tell be didn't belong in the area? Ultimately, I think this sort of argument keeps working against Zimmerman.

[poppy]

Your own narrative doesn't make sense. Why did what you think of running sounds from GZ diminish after Martin ran? Why didn't Martin tell DeeDee Zimmerman was running after him (he said "following")?

If Zimmerman assaulted Martin, why were there no injuries on Martin's body indicating that happened? Why did the confrontation end with Martin on top of Zimmerman striking him?

It shows he was agitated and aggressive in pursuing Treyvon Martin.

 

No one but George Zimmerman knows what happened between the two men that night. But, one went for chips, was pursued and ended up dead. The other had a gun, spotted him and got angry. (Read highlighted portion of transcript below).

 

Transcript here, where Zimmerman does identify Martin as a teenager early on....

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html

[Mrs Mungo]

If Zimmerman assaulted Martin, why were there no injuries on Martin's body indicating that happened? Why did the confrontation end with Martin on top of Zimmerman striking him?

You have never seen a guy shove another guy, then wind up on the losing end of the fight?

[NASDAQ]

Sure, the noise might have been the wind, and the comment "he's running" and the huffing noises coming from GZ followed by "he ran" followed by the end of the huffing noises might all be a complete coincidence.

 

Sure, maybe GZ was following TV and coincidentally the kid decided to hit him for unrelated unknown reasons causing a self defense situation where Zimmerman had to kill him.

 

Can you also consider the slight outside possibility that George Zimmerman wasn't some innocent bystander who was randomly assaulted by a guy and luckily happened to have a gun to defend himself?

 

Martin hitting Zimmerman makes easily as much sense as Zimmerman deciding, apropos of nothing, to gun down some teenager for no particular reason. Or  

 

All Zimmerman needs is a reasonable doubt. A reasonable doubt. Unless the prosecutor can prove that it wasn't self-defence, he should walk. Zimmerman does not need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did act in self-defence. He's made an a priori case and the prosecution has to prove that he didn't. 

[marbel]

Transcript here, where Zimmerman does identify Martin as a teenager early on....

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html

 

OK, thanks.  I just never knew if Zimmerman had identified Martin as a teen while all of it was going on.

[poppy]

Martin hitting Zimmerman makes easily as much sense as Zimmerman deciding, apropos of nothing, to gun down some teenager for no particular reason. Or

 

All Zimmerman needs is a reasonable doubt. A reasonable doubt. Unless the prosecutor can prove that it wasn't self-defence, he should walk. Zimmerman does not need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did act in self-defence. He's made an a priori case and the prosecution has to prove that he didn't.

 

He didn't shoot Martin for no reason, he shot them because they were brawling.

 

They were brawling because of unwitnessed events that happened after Zimmerman was asked to stop pursuing Martin, but chose to continue to go after him anyway.

 

Legally I don't know. Moral responsibility, Zimmerman carries most of that burden if not all.

[Lisbeth]

I don't find the testimony on the "get off" statement particularly compelling, as the witness did not include those words in her original statement.

Yep. That witness has about zero credibility considering the li...err...inconsistencies she was caught in.

[NASDAQ]

He didn't shoot Martin for no reason, he shot them because they were brawling.

 

They were brawling because of unwitnessed events that happened after Zimmerman was asked to stop pursuing Martin, but chose to continue to go after him anyway.

 

Legally I don't know. Moral responsibility, Zimmerman carries most of that burden if not all.

 

Okay. We'll have to differ here. I don't think that following someone creates the moral burden for their death if you kill them to stop them from bashing your head against the pavement. You clearly take an extremely dim view of following people for any reason. 

[poppy]

Okay. We'll have to differ here. I don't think that following someone creates the moral burden for their death if you kill them to stop them from bashing your head against the pavement. You clearly take an extremely dim view of following people for any reason.

Read transcript. GZ was hostile at best.

I hope I am never in that situation.

[Mrs Mungo]

Okay. We'll have to differ here. I don't think that following someone creates the moral burden for their death if you kill them to stop them from bashing your head against the pavement. You clearly take an extremely dim view of following people for any reason.

And if he had been chasing down a teenaged white girl in his car, she fought and he shot her? Yes, we take a dim view of stalking, chasing and confronting perfectly innocent people.

[StephanieZ]

It's a little off topic, but I have to wonder just how reasonable a person GZ is . . . He called 911 ABOUT A POTHOLE

 

5.    March 17, 2005 – 7:21 p.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Maintenance
Report: Pothole “that is blocking the roadâ€

 

(From one of the above linked articles.)

 

Good grief. This was obviously someone who knew about non-emergency lines, so it's not like it's some 20 year old who doesn't realize that police have OTHER phone numbers than 911. 

 

I realize that is minor. The big stuff is too sad to think about . 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

He didn't shoot Martin for no reason, he shot them because they were brawling.

 

They were brawling because of unwitnessed events that happened after Zimmerman was asked to stop pursuing Martin, but chose to continue to go after him anyway.

 

Legally I don't know. Moral responsibility, Zimmerman carries most of that burden if not all.

 

Proof they were brawling?  There are no marks on Martin indicating he was struck by Zimmerman.  None.

And again, Zimmerman sad he quit following Martin.  Proof he didn't?  None.

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Okay. We'll have to differ here. I don't think that following someone creates the moral burden for their death if you kill them to stop them from bashing your head against the pavement. You clearly take an extremely dim view of following people for any reason. 

 

That's because you are using logic and common sense.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

And if he had been chasing down a teenaged white girl in his car, she fought and he shot her? Yes, we take a dim view of stalking, chasing and confronting perfectly innocent people.

 

Unreal.  I really expect better arguments from you than this one, but just to humor you, if the teen age girl struck GZ, pinned him to the ground, and was striking him in the head in an effort to cause serius injury, then yes I would still supportb his right to defend himself.

[poppy]

Unreal.  I really expect better arguments from you than this one, but just to humor you, if the teen age girl struck GZ, pinned him to the ground, and was striking him in the head in an effort to cause serius injury, then yes I would still supportb his right to defend himself.

You left out the chasing part, that is irrelevant? In several previous posts you've emphasized that Zimmerman's actions were "legal". I'm not asking if stalking someone is legal, I'm asking about responsibility in a moral sense.

[poppy]

Proof they were brawling?  There are no marks on Martin indicating he was struck by Zimmerman.  None.

And again, Zimmerman sad he quit following Martin.  Proof he didn't?  None.

Martin wasn't struck by Zimmerman????? He got a bullet in his chest. It was a brawl, and a fatal one, due to the gun Zimmerman was carrying.

[Georgiana Daniels]

GZ was playing bigshot and ended up killing a kid rather than waiting for the police.

 

Sick. Just....sick.

[Anne in CA]

Ultimately the real point to me is that it is scary to be followed by someone who might mean you harm. When I was a bartender it happened to me sometimes. I would be out late, and weirdoes come out. I am little, but I am strong. If one of those weirdoes had attacked me and I defended myself and the man involved ended up with more bruises than me, would I have been the aggressor? Many years ago a stripper in KFalls was found guilty of "assaulting" a man who, according to witnesses, waited for her to leave work and repeatedly tried to pull her down. She beat him off with a stiletto heel and left marks on his face and had to pay for plastic surgery according to a civil suit. Apparently it is fine to rape strippers. There is a parallel to this case that I REALLY find disgusting. I do not believe GZ would have chased down my son for walking through his neighborhood. No one finds my 17 yo ds scary to look at. But he is young and impulsive and if some creeper had jumped on him that creeper would have all the bruises no matter who started it, a 17yo male is not a fortress of wisdom and experience and self control. If you take one on you will end up being the one hurt, but that does not make you innocent.

[Mrs Mungo]

Unreal. I really expect better arguments from you than this one, but just to humor you, if the teen age girl struck GZ, pinned him to the ground, and was striking him in the head in an effort to cause serius injury, then yes I would still supportb his right to defend himself.

After her had stalked her through her neighborhood, chased her down in his truck, and left his truck to chase her on foot? You think there is nothing wrong with those actions, legal or otherwise?

 

Eta: I guess we should carry a gun and shoot any time we feel threatened to be on the safe side, since only shooters are protected by SYG/self-defense laws? Back to the old west quick draw days? The one who lives is the one who gets to tell what happened, right?

[LucyStoner]

If Zimmerman had shot and killed me- a reasonably photogenic middle class white mother- while I walked home with a snack he would have been forced to take a plea or be facing all but certain conviction. It pains me greatly to think about the gender, race and age bias that somehow make it more likely that Martin's family will not see justice done.

 

Zimmerman had a history of vigilante type behavior, a history of violence and was told to leave it alone by the 911 operator. He created whatever situation went down that night. He can offer any defense he wants. It doesn't change the fact that a young man is dead. It doesn't change the fact that Zimmerman has every reason to lie and IMHO dubious credibility. No matter what the jury does, it will not change that Zimmerman killed a kid.

[Pawz4me]

Yep. That witness has about zero credibility considering the li...err...inconsistencies she was caught in.

 

Zimmerman has been caught in his own inconsistencies.  Or lies, if you will.  Most notably IMO -- He told Sean Hannity shortly after the incident that he had no knowledge of Florida's self defense or stand your ground laws.  His college professor has testified otherwise.  At worst we can speculate that Zimmerman had the knowledge of Florida's laws necessary to formulate what story he needed to tell in order to maintain his innocence.  At best, if we're being fair and apply the same standard, then we have to say that both of them have "about zero credibility."

 

 

Eta: I guess we should carry a gun and shoot any time we feel threatened to be on the safe side, since only shooters are protected by SYG/self-defense laws? Back to the old west quick draw days? The one who lives is the one who gets to tell what happened, right?

 

Unfortunately, I think that's all too close to the truth.

[Scarlett]

After her had stalked her through her neighborhood, chased her down in his truck, and left his truck to chase her on foot? You think there is nothing wrong with those actions, legal or otherwise?

 

Eta: I guess we should carry a gun and shoot any time we feel threatened to be on the safe side, since only shooters are protected by SYG/self-defense laws? Back to the old west quick draw days? The one who lives is the one who gets to tell what happened, right?

This story keeps reminding me of an incident that happened to me in my 20s. At 6:00 a.m. On a rainy dark winter morning a man rang my bell and asked to come in. I told him no even though he seemed innocent enough. As he walked away and thought he was out of sight. Watched him creep around and crouch outside my bedroom window. I called 911 and he got away even though police showed up with in about 3 min.

 

When I told this story to my BIL he said, " see that is why you need a gun!" I was like, " whhhhat.? ". That man, later identified a peeping Tom well known to police...might have hurt me. But I am still VERY grateful I used common sense and instead of opening my door and shooting him I simply kept the door locked and closed.

 

If only GZ had minded his own business....or at the very least stayed in his truck.....

 

One would hope GZ would wish he had stayed in his truck. But I heard him in a interview say he regrets none of his actions that night.

[MissKNG]

I would convict him. Here are a few reasons why:

 

- the 911 dispatcher TOLD Zimmerman to NOT follow Martin and he still did

- Martin's friend was telling him to run away so obviously Zimmerman was after him

- Martin's friend testified that Martin was yelling "get off, get off!" So I believe Zimmerman (who wasn't even suppose to be chasing after Martin) was the aggressor

- another 911 call recorded Martin screaming in terror "HELP!!" right before the gun shot

 

 

I think Zimmerman did not like seeing a young, black teen in his neighborhood and went to do something about it. Then took it too far.

[Mrs Mungo]

Zimmerman has been caught in his own inconsistencies. Or lies, if you will. Most notably IMO -- He told Sean Hannity shortly after the incident that he had no knowledge of Florida's self defense or stand your ground laws. His college professor has testified otherwise. At worst we can speculate that Zimmerman had the knowledge of Florida's laws necessary to formulate what story he needed to tell in order to maintain his innocence. At best, if we're being fair and apply the same standard, then we have to say that both of them have "about zero credibility."

Actually, I think the witness lacks polish, knowledge and savvy. I don't necessarily think she lacks credibility in the sense that has been implied in this thread. Her story on the stand isn't what was inconsistent. She said that she didn't take talking to the lawyers out of court seriously. Lots of young people don't understand the seriousness of what is being asked of them at times.

 

We know more about Zimmerman's credibility; he has a history of harassing people then lying to cover it up. He lied at his bond hearing. His wife has been charged with perjury.

 

His statement claims that Trayvon jumped out of the bushes, which you can see isn't true because there aren't any. He claims he had blood all over his face, but there was no blood on Trayvon, no blood on the sidewalk and did not have blood all over him in photos taken at the scene. I once cracked the cartilage in my nose (the bone wasn't broken) in a car accident. I was *covered* in blood and had two black eyes for over a week. He told a PA that EMS said his nose was broken, but the EMS report says, "no external hemorrhage noted; mucous membrane normal."

 

Zimmerman had no blood, dirt or defensive wounds on his hands.

 

ZIMMERMAN: I was on top of him, straddling him, he was face down, when he kept hitting me in the face it felt like something was in his hands, so I thought he had a weapon, so I grabbed his hands and pushed them away from his body, and I said, "STOP! Don't move." He was saying something like "ahhhh ahhhhh and cursing" and I said, "STOP, don't move" and then somebody came and had a flashlight and I thought was a cop and I said - oh and I still had my gun in my hand as I was holding his hands apart and I said are you a cop he said "no" but I'll call them. I said, "I don't need you to do that I need you to help me restrain this guy."

All of that *after* Zimmerman had shot Martin in the chest? The front of Trayvon's clothes were covered in mud and grass from lying like that in the grass which was wet from rain *after* he had been shot dead. Guess what wasn't? The back of Zimmerman's clothes, after fighting on his back during a struggle?

 

Zimmerman said Martin did not pin his arms, so where were the defensive wounds?

 

DETECTIVE: Ok, where were his hands when you went to get the weapon.

ZIMMERMAN: One hand was going toward the gun and ah, he took it off my mouth. I took his hand, ah, he was suffocating me so I was trying to get his hands off my face. So when I felt his hands, ah, he let go of my mouth, so I wasn't trying to do anything again with my right hand so I grabbed my gun and, ah, I don't know if he did it at the same time or what the case was but I got to it first.

DETECTIVE: How did you come to fire upon him in that position cuz you're laying down on your back and did you just bring it out of the holster. Did you just fired it from, almost like from the hip.

 

ZIMMERMAN: 43:09 [GZ fully extends right arm holding an imaginary gun and at the same time, GZ uses left hand to show he was holding Martin] I think I made sure that it wasn't -- cuz my hand in the way -- I made sure it was past my hand was out of the way. Cuz his hand was still on my face. So I made sure. He was like putting all his weight on my nose and my mouth trying to suffocate me. So he was like creating a crevice with his body and then he like -- when he slid to go for my gun -- that's when it clicked that I had my gun.

 

DETECTIVE: You went out like this [illustrates holding an imaginary gun by his hip]

 

ZIMMERMAN: 44:14 [GZ fully extends right arm holding an imaginary gun I think I went and at the same time, GZ uses left hand to show holding Martin] I think I went out far enough where I could make sure that it [the gun] was past my other hand. [GZ keeps right arm extended] and in his general area.

 

DETECTIVE: There's not really a lot of distance between you and him, so you can't really extend you arm -- you don't have any play

 

ZIMMERMAN: [Zimmerman fully extends his right arm again holding imaginary gun] I was on him -- I knew I was on him. Correct.

Martin was not slamming Zimmerman's head against the sidewalk in this account, he merely had his hands on Zimmerman's face. Both of Zimmerman's hands were free. He pulled his gun and shot carefully enough to make sure his other hand wasn't in the way. He didn't shove Martin off or punch back or anything like that? Martin was *smothering* Zimmerman, but it was Zimmerman that the neighbors heard yelling for help?

 

Phone records show that Martin was on the phone. Does that fact make more sense in Zimmerman's version-Trayvon punching Martin while on the phone or in Jeantel's version-Zimmerman confronts and pushes Martin?

[BrookValley.]

Testimony this morning from a witness says that the voice heard calling for help on the 911 call was Trayvon, not Zimmerman.

 

Ultimately, it's going to be the jury that decides if Zimmerman is guilty. We aren't sitting in the courtroom, and we weren't there that night. If Trayvon turned around and attacked Zimmerman after Zimmerman stopped following him, then Zimmerman was acting in self-defense, no matter if he had followed him aggressively earlier. In that case, legally, he may be not guilty of murder. However, my personal feeling from the evidence we are privy to (for what it's worth, and in all reality, my $.02 ain't worth nothin'), is that Zimmerman was an aggressive if not potentially violent individual that was profiling Trayvon because of his race and who followed him (likely in a threatening manner) when he shouldn't have. As far I'm concerned, a young man died because of his actions. Does that mean he should be convicted? I don't know. I don't have all the details; like I said, we're not in that courtroom.

 

 

[Down_the_Rabbit_Hole]

What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Mr. Zimmerman has a right to a fair trial.

 

He will not get one since the media has made it such a frenzy, people want his head and unless they get it there will be hell to pay...even if he is innocent (which I believe he is).

[marbel]

He will not get one since the media has made it such a frenzy, people want his head and unless they get it there will be hell to pay...even if he is innocent (which I believe he is).

 

Even if he is acquitted he will never live a normal life.  He will be harassed until he either leaves the US or dies.  Either way, he will receive punishment for his actions (deserved or not).   

[poppy]

Stalk and shoot a kid, you gain some notoriety. What do you know.

 

However, it is clear that he has some ardent defenders. He has also receive well over $100,000 in donations for his defense fund. And when that money ran out, he asked for more and got it - $46,000 in less than a week just this month. http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/donations-pouring-zimmerman-defense-fund/nYBmz/

 

He'll be fine.

[VeritasMama]

I think it is worth pointing out that Zimmerman has a history of aggression, harassment and assault.

 

In addition to complaints of neighbors:

 

http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=16658024

 

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/03/27/10894561-zimmerman-accused-of-domestic-violence-fighting-with-a-police-officer?lite

Trayvon Martin also has a nasty record of fighting and drug use. He was suspended from school at the time of the attack for fighting.

 

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/05/23/18449794-zimmerman-defense-releases-texts-about-guns-fighting-from-trayvon-martins-phone?lite

 

If you are going to use Zimmermans past against him I. This case, it seems as though Martins past should also be examined, especially when eye witness accounts and the physical evidence support Zimmermans version of events. Zimmermans story has never changed, while the accounts of several of the prosecution witnesses accounts of what they heard has changed.

 

Zimmerman should not have gotten out of his car and shouldn't have followed Trayvon. That makes him stupid, not a liar. His physical injuries are consistent with eye witness accounts that his head was being slammed I to the concrete and he was being punched. He pulled the trigger before be could be beaten unconscious and perhaps killed. Maybe you wouldn't have made the decision to shoot yourself, but it is self defense at that point, it is easy to prove he was facing bodily harm by the head injuries he sustained.

[poppy]

The medical examiner testified that Zimmerman's injuries were "very insignificant" and may have come from just one strike. http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-george-zimmerman-medical-examiner-20130702,0,1358679.story That story also contains testimony that he has told different versions of his story to different people.

 

 

If you are going to use Zimmermans past against him I. This case, it seems as though Martins past should also be examined, especially when eye witness accounts and the physical evidence support Zimmermans version of events.

Nope, that is not how murder trials work. He was not fighting or on drugs when spotted by GM. It also doesn't legally matter what a woman is wearing before she is raped. Zimmerman is the only person on trial.

[zoobie]

I can't wrap my mind around why Zimmerman got out of his truck. He's driving through his neighborhood and sees someone whom he thinks may be "suspicious." He calls 911. Disregards everything the 911 operator says. Martin starts running to get away from the crazy guy stalking him. Zimmerman gets out of his truck WITH HIS GUN and chases after the kid. Why? What did he think was going to happen? What was his purpose in chasing someone who was simply walking down the street? If the kid had a small child he was dragging away, ok, chase. But for no dang reason? It's completely insane. What did he think was going to come out of his chase?

 

Zimmerman started the fight by getting out of his truck and chasing Martin. Martin fighting back was self defense. If some crazy guy chases my kids down, I hope they fight back! That's what the experts say, fight like hell to avoid being taken from the primary crime scene.

 

Zimmerman was a ticking time bomb. He knew he was starting a confrontation when he got out of his truck. He thought he was going to be some kind of hero for catching a hoodlum and instead killed an innocent kid. I hope he rots in jail, but the trial is such a cluster that it doesn't seem likely.

[catz]

Honestly, if it is not against the law to completely disregard a 911 operator's direct instruction on a case like this, it should be. I understand he will likely get off, but I'm completely disgusted that this guy is going to walk because he got a scratch on his head. I probably used up all my likes for the day agreeing with people on this thread.

 

GZ likely has some serious mental health issues IMO. Who does stuff like this?

[Jennifer3141]

 

Nobody should be stalked, harrassed and ultimately shot and killed for walking to their local 7-11, then wandering back home while talking on their phone; I don't care how old they are. Zimmerman followed Martin for a while saying, "there is something wrong with this guy" and "I think he is on drugs." He could tell from that distance he was on drugs, but not how old he was? Zimmerman could tell be didn't belong in the area? Ultimately, I think this sort of argument keeps working against Zimmerman.

 

 

This argument of Zimmerman thinking Trayvon was on drugs cracks me up. So he had this, "scary hoodie" up and Zimmerman was not looking into Trayvon's eyes (the way EVERY single medical professional in the WOLRD can diagnose a drug problem within SECONDS) but this jerk thinks, "Drugs!" because Trayvon is walking apparently. I know Prancercising was invented in Florida. Was Trayvon Prancercising? I might think drugs then, I suppose.

 

He was talking on a cell phone while walking for crying out loud. I do that every.single.night while I earn my activity points for WW. KK should have been able to blow my head off last Thursday while we chatted on the phone while I walked using that logic.

 

I'm sick of vigilante "justice" in these crazy states. We had one neighbor who fancied himself a vigilante and the community shut him down faster than you can dial 911. No way in heck do I want some whacko tho fancies himself a cop (but who isn't mentally stable enough to actually become one!) running around my neighborhood armed with a gun looking for trouble. There's the falsest sense of security in the world right there. You might as well hand the nutter an aluminum foil hat and tell him to shoot at aliens first.

[Jennifer3141]

 

Honestly, if it is not against the law to completely disregard a 911 operator's direct instruction on a case like this, it should be. I understand he will likely get off, but I'm completely disgusted that this guy is going to walk because he got a scratch on his head. I probably used up all my likes for the day agreeing with people on this thread.

 

GZ likely has some serious mental health issues IMO. Who does stuff like this?

 

 

ITA. If the 911 operator hadn't told Zimmerman to back off, then I could possibly see the other side.

 

But she clearly did. Zimmerman made the choice to act as an agent of the law, despite having NO training to do so from a legitimate authority. He stalked a kid while walking around with a gun and then the kid died as a result of Zimmerman's actions. Zimmerman should fry. Zimmerman would fry if this kid was white.

[Matryoshka]

I haven't been closely following the minute details.  My simple take is -- If I was walking along bothering nobody and somebody came out of their house and started following me and then confronted me, I would certainly feel the need to defend myself, and perhaps to go on the offensive.  I think Mr. Zimmerman is certainly guilty of something.

:iagree: Zimmermann says he was justified because he felt "threatened" by Martin (because he was walking along in the neighborhood while black). And instead of running away from the "threat", he followed him. Huh?

 

What about Martin? Is he not allowed to defend himself when followed for no apparent reason by a man with a gun in the dark? Is he not allowed to fight back? Wasn't he just defending *himself*, whether he was on top or not at the end, the other guy had a *gun* and followed him creepily with malicious intent. And the gun and malicious intent trump all, as we find out in the end by who is dead. I think Martin had every reason to be afraid and defend himself.

[LucyStoner]

:iagree: Zimmermann says he was justified because he felt "threatened" by Martin (because he was walking along in the neighborhood while black). And instead of running away from the "threat", he followed him. Huh?

 

What about Martin? Is he not allowed to defend himself when followed for no apparent reason by a man with a gun in the dark? Is he not allowed to fight back? Wasn't he just defending *himself*, whether he was on top or not at the end, the other guy had a *gun* and followed him creepily with malicious intent. And the gun and malicious intent trump all, as we find out in the end by who is dead. I think Martin had every reason to be afraid and defend himself.

 

I agree.  If someone is following me in the dark, I am going to start trying to elude them.  If that's not possible, I will fight using any and all means at my disposal.  I have kicked someone into the the pavement who was trying to rob me (and I was initially fearful was trying to abduct or attack me.)  Trayvon had every reason to be fearful in this situation and it would seem to me, especially with a "Stand your Ground" law that he would have a claim to self defense.  

[ChocolateReignRemix]

You left out the chasing part, that is irrelevant? In several previous posts you've emphasized that Zimmerman's actions were "legal". I'm not asking if stalking someone is legal, I'm asking about responsibility in a moral sense.

 

He didn't stalk Martin.  Following /= stalking.