ChocolateReignRemix Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 I hope it is granted so that states get these SYG laws off the books. I don't really get why the SC Supreme Court decided to hear the case though. Looks like the issue is the proper procedure on the immunity hearing if someone claims self defense under that statue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 I think you are talking about something different than the person I was answering. Here are the jury instructions relating to Reasonable Doubt. Wow. How did you copy a pdf? I don't know how to do that. It was the part " if having a conviction, it is one which is not stable but one which wavers and vacillates, then the charge is not proved beyond every reasonable doubt" that I was thinking of. To me, that would mean a lingering doubt--the doubt keeps resurfacing, therefore one has reasonable doubt. If I were on a jury that's how I would understand those instructions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyThreeSons Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 There was a case here last year where a couple pulled into the parking lot of the woman's apartment complex, looked up at the second floor, where they saw two guys trying to break into her apartment. The guy got a gun out of the glove compartment, shot and killed both would-be burglars. No charges were filed because it fell under the "Stand Your Ground" laws. I was furious, and still am. Neither the man nor his girlfriend were in imminent danger. The guys hadn't even gotten in yet. If he had called 911, there's a good chance they would have been apprehended. And he could have detained them without killing them. Senseless!! Later on, the shooter was charged -- with being a felon in possession of a gun. But he still walked on the killings. ETA correction -- the stories say the apartment was on the ground floor. I thought that when it was first reported, they said second floor, but I haven't been able to confirm that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 There was a case here last year where a couple pulled into the parking lot of the woman's apartment complex, looked up at the second floor, where they saw two guys trying to break into her apartment. The guy got a gun out of the glove compartment, shot and killed both would-be burglars. No charges were filed because it fell under the "Stand Your Ground" laws. I was furious, and still am. Neither the man nor his girlfriend were in imminent danger. The guys hadn't even gotten in yet. If he had called 911, there's a good chance they would have been apprehended. And he could have detained them without killing them. Senseless!! Later on, the shooter was charged -- with being a felon in possession of a gun. But he still walked on the killings. Interesting. According to the news report I read the burglars were armed (gun) and the shooting occurred when the shooter and burglars were within 5-10 feet of each other. It looks like he did try to detain them (he possibly approached them). Based on what I read I have no tears for the armed burglars who got killed committing a crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 There was a case here last year. So why wasn't this case and trial all over the news? Thats what drives me buggy about the Zimmerman case. The media made it into a national news story, not the facts of the case IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 So why wasn't this case and trial all over the news? Thats what drives me buggy about the Zimmerman case. The media made it into a national news story, not the facts of the case IMO. Well, the national news is by definition "the media". But even then, this case is noteworthy: If a criminal kills a bystander, that's not really news. If an bystander kills a criminal, that's not really news. Here we have a shooting between two people who were not criminals, so that's unusual. Plus the dead one is a teenager and the shooter was not arrested. I don't think it's just arbitrary that this case blew up into big news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 So why wasn't this case and trial all over the news? Thats what drives me buggy about the Zimmerman case. The media made it into a national news story, not the facts of the case IMO. My husband's best friend was murdered in Florida, and the shooter claimed Stand Your Ground and was never even arrested. The story did not make national news. Lots of the stories haven't. The police and DA in Florida have had a vested interest in supporting SYG. I don't think it is arbitrary though. This was a teenager with a clean record just walking through his neighborhood when "profiled" as a criminal, which led to his shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Wow. How did you copy a pdf? I don't know how to do that. I copied them from a news story that listed them in full. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyThreeSons Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Interesting. According to the news report I read the burglars were armed (gun) and the shooting occurred when the shooter and burglars were within 5-10 feet of each other. It looks like he did try to detain them (he possibly approached them). Based on what I read I have no tears for the armed burglars who got killed committing a crime. I cannot access the local paper's archives because I do not have a paid subscription. Here is another source's report I found online. A few of the details are different than what I remember from the original report. It doesn't mention that the would-be burglars were armed, but I will continue digging. (I am also having trouble formatting the quote.) "Evidence presented at the change of plea hearing established that just after midnight on April 7, 2012, the defendant, Douglas Lamar Williams, returned to his apartment complex in Spartanburg County, South Carolina, as the front seat passenger in a vehicle driven by his girlfriend. Upon arrival, Williams observed, from the vehicle, what appeared to be two individuals attempting to break into the ground floor apartment he shared with his girlfriend. After telling his girlfriend to stop the car, Williams, a prohibited felon, exited the vehicle with a loaded Smith and Wesson .38 caliber revolver, approaching the two individuals while announcing his presence. Williams then shot the two individuals. The two individuals both sustained gunshot wounds to the head and died from their injuries." I stand by my original assertion -- he and his girlfriend were not in danger. He didn't need to approach them. He should have called 911 rather than get out of the vehicle. I have a vastly different outlook than you: none of my "stuff" is worth anyone's life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Michelle* Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 OT, but I tried a search for the above case and I got what has to be the strangest news story ever. Translation gone bad? It looks like a local website. COLUMBIA, SC—United States Attorney Bill Nettles settled currently that, Douglas Lamar Williams, age 30, of Spartanburg, South Carolina, was condemned by United States District Court Judge Mary G Lewis in Spartanburg to 78 months in sovereign prison. Williams formerly entered a guilty defence in Feb to a sovereign complaint alleging law-breaker in possession of a firearm, a defilement of Title 18, United States Code, Section 922(g)(1). Evidence presented during a change of defence conference in Feb determined that only after midnight on Apr 7, 2012, a defendant, Douglas Lamar Williams, returned to his unit formidable in Spartanburg County, South Carolina, as a front chair newcomer in a automobile driven by his girlfriend. Upon arrival, Williams observed, from a vehicle, what seemed to be dual people attempting to mangle into a belligerent building unit he common with his girlfriend. After revelation his partner to stop a car, Williams, a taboo felon, exited a automobile with a installed Smith and Wesson .38 size revolver, coming a dual people while announcing his presence. Williams afterwards shot a dual individuals. The dual people both postulated gunshot wounds to a conduct and died from their injuries. Williams afterwards returned to his girlfriend’s automobile and educated her to call 911 from a dungeon phone she had in a vehicle. A brief time later, Williams and his partner returned to a stage and met with law enforcement. Williams reliable that he hexed a firearm, revelation law coercion that he shot a dual individuals. Williams, prior to his possession of a firearm and ammunition, has been convicted of a crime for that he could have perceived some-more than one year in prison. He has not perceived a atonement for pronounced conviction. The firearm and ammunition hexed by Williams on Apr 7, 2012, had trafficked or influenced widespread or unfamiliar commerce. The box was investigated by a Federal Bureau of Investigation. Assistant United States Attorney Lance Crick rubbed a case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyThreeSons Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 I stand by my original assertion -- he and his girlfriend were not in danger. He didn't need to approach them. He should have called 911 rather than get out of the vehicle. I have a vastly different outlook than you: none of my "stuff" is worth anyone's life. Upon doing more research: There was no one inside the apartment at the time of the shootings. Sheriff's deputies found no pry marks on the window. The would-be burglars apparently did have one gun between the two of them. Both men were shot once in the head. For at least one of them, the gun was within inches of his head when shot. Our Sheriff, Chuck Wright, has gained national notoriety for advising that residents arm themselves. But even he said that he wished the guy had called 911, and that no property is worth a life. And yes, I have been the victim of a burglary. We were not home at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyThreeSons Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Translation gone bad? It looks like a local website. If the subject weren't so serious, that would be hilarious. I found essentially the same story, but in "regular" English. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyThreeSons Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Translation gone bad? It looks like a local website. If the subject weren't so serious, that would be hilarious. I found essentially the same story, but in "regular" English. If you click on the link at the bottom of the weirdly-translated article, you will find the article I had found. (It almost sounds like someone was copying it, but trying to avoid plagiarlizing, and failing miserably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unfrumpable. Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 So why wasn't this case and trial all over the news? Thats what drives me buggy about the Zimmerman case. The media made it into a national news story, not the facts of the case IMO. I may be wrong, but I think I read that the lawyer representing the Martin's was very proactive about getting the case into the media's attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Yes, I believe that's true, Trayvon Martin's parents were the ones who tried to bring attention to the story after Zimmerman was not arrested. If the subject weren't so serious, that would be hilarious. I found essentially the same story, but in "regular" English. It's a dreadful story but a hilarious translation. The one line that baffles me is: "Williams afterwards returned to his girlfriend’s automobile and educated her to call 911 from a dungeon phone she had in a vehicle." I can backwards translate most of it, but, "dungeon phone"? OOOOh. Just got it. Cell phone. Interesting little puzzle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catz Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 I may be wrong, but I think I read that the lawyer representing the Martin's was very proactive about getting the case into the media's attention. Absolutely. If Martin's family wouldn't have been proactive and caught the media's attention, I don't think charges would have been brought at all. I think the police had no intention of prosecution, which also explains how horribly the evidence gathering was botched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrub Jay Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 They have a verdict.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 Based on the timing my guess is manslaughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charcat13 Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 While I don't think the prosecution proved it's case, I agree. If not, though, I wouldn't want to be in Sanford tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charcat13 Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 Not guilty! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 Wow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilaclady Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 So so sad. It was not unexpected though but still sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizzyBee Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 So so sad. It was not unexpected though but still sad. Me too. It's the verdict I expected, but I still feel sick and disgusted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jennynd Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 Wow... What kind of message they send to young black people.... Do not walk into a white community Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 He is not out of the woods, Martin's parents will sue. But the damage is done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 Not guilty! Not surprised. :sneaky2: Not. one. bit. surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 Wow... What kind of message they send to young black people.... Do not walk into a white community Sanford is hardly a white community. I think 1/5 of residents are Latino and 1/4 or so are African American. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgiana Daniels Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 Sick to my stomach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jennynd Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 Sanford is hardly a white community. I think 1/5 of residents are Latino and 1/4 or so are African American. So not walk into a white Mexican community... Not without a gun... This is not going to end well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 Sanford is hardly a white community. I think 1/5 of residents are Latino and 1/4 or so are African American. I believe that neighborhood was about the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 I didn't think they would reach a verdict today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jennynd Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 Not surprised. :sneaky2: Not. one. bit. surprised. I am surprised that so many gals here are not surprised.... I thought they will at least give him manslaughter But again, I don't grow up in this country, I am not all that familiar with how a young black kid with skittle in his pocket can get killed and the killer can walk free... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alte Veste Academy Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 I thought it would be manslaughter. I am sad. Weepy. I feel sorry for the jurors though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 I believe that neighborhood was about the same. Yeah, I don't think there is anything approaching a white only neighborhood in Sanford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingersmom Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 I'm losing faith in your justice system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 I am surprised that so many gals here are not surprised.... I thought they will at least give him manslaughter But again, I don't grow up in this country, I am not all that familiar with how a young black kid with skittle in his pocket can get killed and the killer can walk free... Manslaughter is not a simple charge and the state had to disprove self defense. They didn't and what little effort they put into it was focused on rabbit trails that were not relevant under the law. The prosecution had a shot only because Guy closed strong. BLDR's closing was based on too many questions and MOM hammered that home. Honestly without Guy's close I think this wraps up much sooner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 He is not out of the woods, Martin's parents will sue. But the damage is done. Zimmerman is nearly judgment proof though, he doesn't have a lot of means. I mean this is a guy who couldn't get hired as a cop. Honestly, and while I don't support vigilante justice, Zimmerman's biggest worry now should be that someone takes it on themselves to kill him. I believe he will need to live in hiding for a very long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 I am surprised that so many gals here are not surprised.... I thought they will at least give him manslaughter But again, I don't grow up in this country, I am not all that familiar with how a young black kid with skittle in his pocket can get killed and the killer can walk free... I used to be an American. I grew up in S FL. Racism and defending the indefensible lust for guns was rampant then, too. Nothing has changed. That's why I'm not surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 Wow... What kind of message they send to young black people.... Do not walk into a white community I think it sends a message to *all* Florida residents-last one alive wins. Don't bother trying to talk it out or messing around with a lesser degree of violence. Shoot to kill every time. The gun lobbies will get you off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 I seriously feel ill. I live in FL and I was hoping for manslaughter. I really don't like the message it sends that he was cleared. It all just seems so wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jennynd Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 I think it sends a message to *all* Florida residents-last one alive wins. Don't bother trying to talk it out or messing around with a lesser degree of violence. Shoot to kill every time. The gun lobbies will get you off. I don't think I will want to go to Florida ever.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 I don't think I will want to go to Florida ever.... Don't bother. I could list 100 reasons why I left and never bothered to look back. And, hey... my kid hasn't got "legally" shot to death walking home, so that can be my reason #101. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 The law in Florida is rotten. It needs to change. He had a moral duty to retreat if not a legal one. He should have listened to the 911 operator. But he wanted to play cop and made the ridiculously obnoxious and stupid decision to get out of his car instead. As one small consolation, I can't see a police force ever, ever, ever hiring him after this. So at least that goal of his is dead for good now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 On the other hand... http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57433184/fla-mom-gets-20-years-for-firing-warning-shots/ A Florida woman who fired warning shots against her allegedly abusive husband has been sentenced to 20 years in prison.Marissa Alexander of Jacksonville had said the state's "Stand Your Ground" law should apply to her because she was defending herself against her allegedly abusive husband when she fired warning shots inside her home in August 2010. She told police it was to escape a brutal beating by her husband, against whom she had already taken out a protective order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 When I read the judge's reply to their request for more information on manslaughter, I knew it was over. The judge basically said "You have to work with what you've got, I can't clarify for you any more than I already have." They asked a question because they had a doubt and were hoping to clear something up, and when the judge's word came back, NOT clearing it up for them, the doubt remained and they pretty much had to say not guilty. I sat on a jury once where a similar thing happened. We had some doubts or wanted to clarify something so we asked a question. The reply came back, "Work with what you have." We'd already done that for numerous hours and weren't sure on an important aspect. With no assistance/clarification forthcoming, doubt remained so we voted to declare not guilty as a result within minutes. I'm sure of course there were some differences, but when I read that earlier, I had a feeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 My time in central Florida was my personal version of hell on earth. My brother used to live in Sanford and then Orlando (Sanford is coincidentally also the family/child homelessness capital of the country). I visited him regularly because I am close to my niece and 2 nephews. The day they moved out of that place, I breathed a sigh of relief that my need to visit was gone. There are places in Florida I like. Not central Florida though. I'd rather live pretty much anywhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 On the other hand... http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57433184/fla-mom-gets-20-years-for-firing-warning-shots/ Considering everything... that story makes the same kind of sense as the Zimmerman trial. You can clearly see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer3141 Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 You could not get me within 100 miles of a SYG state. I'm not surprised by the verdict. Disappointed in my country but not surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 On the other hand... http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57433184/fla-mom-gets-20-years-for-firing-warning-shots/ Makes total sense. :wacko: And this woman shot at a man who was violating an existing restraining order in her own home. Don't anyone even try to argue with me that racism is not at play in our criminal justice system. I'm going go punch something now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unfrumpable. Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 Zimmerman is nearly judgment proof though, he doesn't have a lot of means. I mean this is a guy who couldn't get hired as a cop. Honestly, and while I don't support vigilante justice, Zimmerman's biggest worry now should be that someone takes it on themselves to kill him. I believe he will need to live in hiding for a very long time. If Casey Anthony can survive, so can he. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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