Parents who don't punish

[Aspasia]

I've seen comments here and there from parents who say they don't punish and I have a few questions for those parents.

 

First, I guess we should define "punishment". I mean, if a kid repeatedly hits another kid with a toy, and you take away the offending toy, is that considered a punishment? Or does this just refer to things like time outs and grounding? What about extra chores?

 

Second, if you don't punish, how DO you deal with undesirable behavior? If a kid breaks a rule, what do you do to encourage him not to break it again? Especially if it's a rule that he has repeatedly broken and doesn't seem to respect at all?

 

Third, what resources on this style of parenting can you recommend?

 

I just feel like my parenting needs an overhaul. I haven't generally considered myself a mega punisher, but I hear my kids in their play, saying things like, "If you do that again, then...". I hate it. It sounds like bullying to me. But I also know where they learned it and it makes me feel horrible. Plus, sometimes I feel like the energy in our house is just kinda negative overall--lots of bickering, whining, arguing...and, okay, yelling. I definitely feel responsible for it. I mean, I'm the mom. If I'm not the one setting the tone, then who is? So I just want to be a more positive parent, but I also don't want to let my kids walk all over me or just do whatever they want all the time. I want to set and maintain limits, but I want to do it in a way that doesn't breed resentment and that doesn't teach bullying. Help?

[Dahliarw]

I try to not punish. I discipline. With discipline you are teaching. Punishment does not always teach and usually involves shaming/making one feel more guilty.

 

 

pun·ish

 

/ˈpʌnɪʃ/ Show Spelled [puhn-ish] Show IPA

 

verb (used with object)

1.

to subject to pain, loss, confinement, death, etc., as a penalty for some offense, transgression, or fault: to punish a criminal.

2.

to inflict a penalty for (an offense, fault, etc.): to punish theft.

3.

to handle severely or roughly, as in a fight.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

dis·ci·pline

/ˈdɪsÉ™plɪn/ Show Spelled [dis-uh-plin] Show IPA noun, verb, dis·ci·plined, dis·ci·plin·ing.

 

noun

1.

training to act in accordance with rules; drill: military discipline.

2.

activity, exercise, or a regimen that develops or improves a skill; training: A daily stint at the typewriter is excellent discipline for a writer.

3.

punishment inflicted by way of correction and training.

[PentecostalMom]

I am not one of those non-punishing parents, but my preferred word and what I consider it is discipline, not punishment. When I send my 3yo to time out because she threw a toy because she is angry, that is (hopefully) teaching her that throwing things is inappropriate, and at the same time giving her time to cool off. After her session in time out, she is to apologize to whomever she got angry with and ask for forgiveness.

 

I am working on being a reformed yeller. I am the product of a yelling/beating/cursing home and I DO NOT want my dc to be raised like that. I find when I am consistent in my discipline, I don't yell. However, if I ask a dc to do something and they disobey me, then I ask again, and sometimes yet again, at that point I am yelling because I am frustrated at their continued disobedience. However, if I enforce my words with actions, they learn obedience, and I do not yell, which is better for us all.

[TravelingChris]

Now here I thought you were talking about parents who do not discipline their children in any way-re Faithmanor's description of some children at her daughter's wedding. I have really nothing to add here.

[NicAnn]

We talk and explain, from infancy basically.

Example- today my 5 year old had some uncharacteriscally moody behavior. At one point she raised her voice to me. First I identified why I thought she was upset, then I asked her, then I explained why it is just fine to be upset and told her how it makes me feel when she raises her voice.

 

We don't punish in our house. We don't even do timeouts. I have never punished my nanny kiddos either.

 

Ive found that realizing kids have bad moods or feelings really helps eliminate problems. So often parents are punishing for human emotions we all have.

 

Also clarifying your own definition of "bad behavior" is helpful too.

[NicAnn]

I also wanted to add that once I changed the way I viewed kids, our life got so,much easier. We can go weeks without any issues, with "perfect" kids. The kids are regularly complemented in public places. I don't think they are extraordinary or different than others, I believe all kids and parents can co exsist peacefully.

[*********]

Like PP's have said, we discipline, not punish. I'm not into random-ish, punitive punishment.

 

And to encourage you, I totally get where you're coming from with wanting to set the tone in your home. I made a conscious decision several years ago to stop yelling. I grew up with constant yelling by my parents (by which I mean loud, angry voices; voices raised to ridiculous decibels just to communicate frustration and anger), and I did NOT want that sort of home. I prayed (and still do!) a lot for patience, mercy, and grace. I'm glad (?) to say that that my children consider me 'yelling' at them when I speak to them sternly. :glare: On the rare occasion I raise the loudness of my voice in anger to yelling, I apologize. However, when I have to yell to get their attention because of an impending danger, you better believe it gets their attention; they haven't tuned out yelling, IYKWIM.

 

So you absolutely can change your parenting style/reactions/tone of your home. It takes a LOT of dedication and hard work, as well as humility to admit when you were wrong and ask for forgiveness. But for my family at least, it's been a true blessing.

[albeto]

I've seen comments here and there from parents who say they don't punish and I have a few questions for those parents.

 

K. Shoot.

 

First, I guess we should define "punishment". I mean, if a kid repeatedly hits another kid with a toy, and you take away the offending toy, is that considered a punishment? Or does this just refer to things like time outs and grounding? What about extra chores?

 

I think of "punishment" as a negative consequence applied in response to an unwanted behavior in hopes of making that particular behavior less likely to happen again. For me, this includes everything from spanking, to time-outs, to loss of privileges, to expectation of labor (extra chores, for example).

 

Second, if you don't punish, how DO you deal with undesirable behavior? If a kid breaks a rule, what do you do to encourage him not to break it again? Especially if it's a rule that he has repeatedly broken and doesn't seem to respect at all?

 

Keep in mind, every behavior has a function. Every single one. There are no truly random or meaningless behaviors. Identify the function, and you're half way there, because that function will tell you what problem your child was trying to solve. You can then help by offering an alternative, appropriate behavior to solve their problem. Sometimes, the solution just won't be satisfactory (like having to accept "no" for an answer). In that case, help them identify their emotions, give that emotion some vocabulary, and teach them the skills we all must learn - time to move on. The sad fact is, life isn't fair, not even when we play by the rules. The sooner kids learn to not take things personally and find something else to invest their time in, the happier they'll be when life throws adult sized lemons.

 

Third, what resources on this style of parenting can you recommend?

 

Can't think of a single one (I go to unschooling resources, but I suspect that isn't appropriate for what you're looking for). I've tried behavioral modification (for autism), and that's heavy on reward. The problem was, with my child, "reward" was another word for "manipulation," and he very much resented that. He still does. The other problem was that he learned to turn the plan around to his advantage by "rewarding" me by letting me keep my valuables very much not broken if I obeyed him. *Ahem* That was the end of that.

 

I just feel like my parenting needs an overhaul. I haven't generally considered myself a mega punisher, but I hear my kids in their play, saying things like, "If you do that again, then...". I hate it. It sounds like bullying to me. But I also know where they learned it and it makes me feel horrible. Plus, sometimes I feel like the energy in our house is just kinda negative overall--lots of bickering, whining, arguing...and, okay, yelling. I definitely feel responsible for it. I mean, I'm the mom. If I'm not the one setting the tone, then who is? So I just want to be a more positive parent, but I also don't want to let my kids walk all over me or just do whatever they want all the time. I want to set and maintain limits, but I want to do it in a way that doesn't breed resentment and that doesn't teach bullying. Help?

 

I come from a very unpopular point of view in that I think that "finding your child's currency" is manipulation. It's coercion, and I think that's pretty rotten, from a kid's point of view. It's also a skill they'll learn to use on each other, you, and their friends (you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours). The way I see it, kids are trying their best to navigate an enormously complex, and often confusing world. I think support and mentoring is more compassionate and effective than conditioning. It does require a lot of time and effort because you have to be there to break up the inappropriate behavior and suggest an alternative, appropriate one. That's not always easy. Sometimes, for example, the behavior functions only to express frustration and tiredness. When the mom is also frustrated and tired, it can be hard to think, much less stay calm, cool, and collected. In addition, I think the more free time you spend with your kids, the more fun you have with them and they have with you, the more you want to see each other happy. Also, the more you allow them to be the "expert" in their interests, the more they'll learn how to trust a mentor. After all, they'll see you trust them, they'll learn that's just The Way Life Works. We enjoy knowing and spending time with People Who Know A Lot About Something. Those people are fascinating, don't you think? ;)

[plath]

We talk and explain, from infancy basically.

Example- today my 5 year old had some uncharacteriscally moody behavior. At one point she raised her voice to me. First I identified why I thought she was upset, then I asked her, then I explained why it is just fine to be upset and told her how it makes me feel when she raises her voice.

 

We don't punish in our house. We don't even do timeouts. I have never punished my nanny kiddos either.

 

Ive found that realizing kids have bad moods or feelings really helps eliminate problems. So often parents are punishing for human emotions we all have.

 

Also clarifying your own definition of "bad behavior" is helpful too.

 

I agree. No punishments or time outs here. My children are not perfect, but neither am I. We have discussions to get to the root of the behavior, not punishments to "change" behavior.

In regards to bullying type behavior or hitting, we also have discussions about true natural consequences (not those set up by parents looking to train) such as if we do not treat others well, they will not want to play with us/be friends, etc. We also talk about how we can make others feel, both good and bad and how others actions can make us feel.

[albeto]

I also wanted to add that once I changed the way I viewed kids, our life got so,much easier.

 

Oh wow, this is one of my [hopefully few] soapbox temptations. I think in our society we're encouraged to think of children as being "good" while they're cute and convenient.

 

My kids are all teens now, and I can't tell you how often jokes becomes expressions of sympathy, desperation, or anticipated PTSD for "surviving the teen years." In my opinion, the "teen years" are more likely to be difficult if we expect our kids to continue being convenient. The problem is, often times, convenient means agreeing with, and supporting us parents. Because we parents have always had the control of the desired resources, we've always expected to be supported. By the time our kids are teens, many of them are fully aware of this dance, and not all of them want continue with the same steps they've always been expected to take.

 

Kids aren't pets, they're independent human beings. From the very beginning, they're hard-wired to become autonomous and seek independence even while learning how to develop social ties. This means developing social ties outside the immediate family as they mature, which means developing opinions contrary to those of the parents. This isn't a Bad Thing. This is a Normal Thing and shouldn't be feared, in my opinion.

[Guest submarines]

Oh wow, this is one of my [hopefully few] soapbox temptations. I think in our society we're encouraged to think of children as being "good" while they're cute and convenient.

 

My kids are all teens now, and I can't tell you how often jokes becomes expressions of sympathy, desperation, or anticipated PTSD for "surviving the teen years." In my opinion, the "teen years" are more likely to be difficult if we expect our kids to continue being convenient. The problem is, often times, convenient means agreeing with, and supporting us parents. Because we parents have always had the control of the desired resources, we've always expected to be supported. By the time our kids are teens, many of them are fully aware of this dance, and not all of them want continue with the same steps they've always been expected to take.

 

Kids aren't pets, they're independent human beings. From the very beginning, they're hard-wired to become autonomous and seek independence even while learning how to develop social ties. This means developing social ties outside the immediate family as they mature, which means developing opinions contrary to those of the parents. This isn't a Bad Thing. This is a Normal Thing and shouldn't be feared, in my opinion.

 

Convenience. You nailed it.

[NicAnn]

 

 

Oh wow, this is one of my [hopefully few] soapbox temptations. I think in our society we're encouraged to think of children as being "good" while they're cute and convenient.

 

My kids are all teens now, and I can't tell you how often jokes becomes exp<b></b>ressions of sympathy, desperation, or anticipated PTSD for "surviving the teen years." In my opinion, the "teen years" are more likely to be difficult if we expect our kids to continue being convenient. The problem is, often times, convenient means agreeing with, and supporting us parents. Because we parents have always had the control of the desired resources, we've always expected to be supported. By the time our kids are teens, many of them are fully aware of this dance, and not all of them want continue with the same steps they've always been expected to take.

 

Kids aren't pets, they're independent human beings. From the very beginning, they're hard-wired to become autonomous and seek independence even while learning how to develop social ties. This means developing social ties outside the immediate family as they mature, which means developing opinions contrary to those of the parents. This isn't a Bad Thing. This is a Normal Thing and shouldn't be feared, in my opinion.

 

Yep I agree totally.

[LibraryLover]

Children need to be observed, which is exhausting (and sometimes boring). If we send them to preschool, we wouldn't expect teachers to not watch behaviors and activity, even if the teachers were not engaged in the activity/play. ( In general, I don't think it's appropriate for parents or teachers to guide imaginative play. I'm not thinking about children who are needing special attention in this area so they understand role playing etc.) But we would expect them to be on the lookout for tired and frustrated behavior. Lots of times we expect children to get along beautifully, but they may not be interested in playing the same game, they may be tired, they may be hungry, they might really need a particular toy/item for their play. Redirection to a new activity is important, as is distraction, especially for very young ones. I think too much discussion can make matters worse, in fact. It's hard to give concrete 'advice' without knowing the situation. Sometimes it makes sense to have a couple of favorite items when children are very small. If two toddlers always want the garlic press when using clay, have two garlic presses.

 

I don't think kids need to be perfect play companions, but they do need adult guidance right away if they are hitting or throwing things. Step in, "No hurting each other". You may need to take a toy from the hand of a little child about to toss a block. A frustrated 2 yr old doesn't need a spanking or a timeout. Before punishment, consider whether distraction, redirection, refreshment, attention from an adult (come help mommy wash the cups in the sink), a break from a friend/sibling, a cuddle away from the stress, or a nap would better serve the children/family. (Maybe the adult i n charge is needing some of this as well. Everyone needs a break, rest, food, love.)

 

Turning on the music and dancing helps. A little Time Warp, or Hokey Pokey never hurt anyone. ;) When children are calm and happy, we can remind them again that we have to take care and keep each other safe.

[Joanne]

I don't use arbitrary, unrelated, formulaic punishment.

 

When kids get to school age, I do use consequences, and I also *block* less consequences. My rules are from an author I recommend, Jane Nelsen.

 

Consequences must be related, reasonable, respectful. I add to that I prefer that it should not punish me.

 

Here's the deal; kids mature mostly on a developmental timeline. Trust me, a 7 year old is not going to play with the remote or TV buttons like a 1 year old. 18 year olds are not going to make potty jokes (ok, maybe that is not the best example ;)). Children *naturally* want to grow, mature, and move on. You can't accelerate the process with time out, spanking, hot sauce, writing sentences, scripture, witholding social events.

 

Good authors:

 

Jane Nelsen

Mary Sheedy Kurcinka

Dr. Becky Bailey

Barbara Coloroso

Dr. Ross Campbell

Clay and Sally Clarkson (Christian)

Scott Turner and Joanne Miller (Christian)

 

Some people like Alfie Kohn, but I am not a fan.

 

Old school:

 

Fabler and Mizlish

Ginott

Druikers

 

My kids are now 18, 16.5 and 14. 1 of them has issues, but I assure you it isn't because of lack of discipline. I got *compliments* when they were younger (and since I live in Texas, it was assumed that I not only spanked but used a belt.)

[Alexigail]

You might be interested in aha! parenting:

 

http://www.ahaparenting.com/

 

I don't do much punishing - my parenting involves a lot of talking and explaining along with a lot of positive reinforcement. I'm certainly not perfect and I do come down on them sometimes but for the most part we have a "peaceful" approach to parenting.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Punishment - usually not related to situation, usually in order to deter or "pay back" for situation, Often something that cannot work by itself. Includes: lecturing, time out, spanking, taking privileges, taking items, grounding, making them do chores, etc.

 

Natural Consequence - Something that happens naturally. You stand on the chair, you may fall. Some natural consequences are not appropriate (the natural consequence for jumping off a building is plunging to your death).

 

Logical Consequence - related and reasonable. I disagree that it must also be "revealed." These are things like having a child move to another toy area if he isn't playing nicely in the original one. A child may well feel punished sometimes. Sometimes parents can turn a logical consequence into a punishment by overdoing it. For example, logically, you would require your child to get up from watching tv in order to finish the chore he was supposed to do an hour ago. Taking TV for the rest of the week because of it is punishment.

 

Built-in Logical Consequence - Thing you build in to teach a value, life lesson, etc. "You may X after you Y" is often a built-in logical consequence. Work before play would be one.

 

 

If a kid breaks a rule, what do you do to encourage him not to break it again? Especially if it's a rule that he has repeatedly broken and doesn't seem to respect at all?

 

We all probably get into this thinking especially if it is a behavior we want to disappear NOW or at least SOON. Generally though, we don't get to control people to that degree. We can try. But...but then we are sweet like you are and want our home to be more peaceful and not include bullying. Also, it is hard to control people all the time so we get inconsistent, use threats (like, "if you do that again...."), etc so we don't have to.

 

The idea with training kids is not really to get them not to break rules. That should be, in time, a side effect, IMO. Instead, discipline means to teach and guide. It means to give them values, morals, life skills, tools, opportunities to learn and practice self-control, reasoning and problem solving skills, etc. That means, sometimes, we're going to have mistakes. But the mistakes are opportunities also. See the difference in thinking? One is to get kids to do or not do certain things. The other is to get kids to the point where they can figure out what to do and not do as well as why and how.

 

In my experience (direct as well as what I see), it is a lot more work at first to discipline children with the long term in mind. However, that work is worth it when your 8, 10, 14, and 19yos are making good choices with little direction.

 

Key things I do?

 

First, focus on relationship. I live on the floor with my littles (and I have a lot of littles!). We read, play, build, tickle, pet, rock, hug, kiss, etc ALL DAY LONG.

 

Mommy Magic, Uh-oh, and Choices are covered in this blogpost: http://hfamcourse.wo.../05/discipline/

 

Give kids skills and tools by modeling, formally, whatever you need to do. One book to help systematically is Raising a Thinking Child by Myrna Shure. Remember you're modeling. Sometimes I hear my littles talk like me also. I can be proud when they ask someone nicely. Sadly, I, too, have heard things in play that make me sad I've taught that.

 

I have found it *much* harder to use *only* positive discipline with my littles. Before, I used to say if someone is using punishment semi-regularly, they probably need to look into beefing up the good strong discipline. I still agree that is the case. I'm just the one working on it these days. My big kids were punished probably about once a year and even those times probably were not necessary or best. I wish I could get down to once a month at this point <sigh>.

 

I'll be reading your thread :)

 

ETA: Yes, my kids are well-regarded by others generally. I'm not all that worried about that though. Really, the goal is not hearing how bad they are at 12 or 18. I could accept mistakes with a 3yo more than lacking of character in a 14yo.

 

ETA2: I really do believe if you do your work young, your teens will make you proud. Obviously there will be the occasional hiccup (and sometimes a kiddo who exercises free will in a wildly inappropriate way despite your parenting), but for the most part, I think teaching and guiding helps kids do better long term. I kept hearing "just wait" especially because we didn't spank. My kids are 18 and 20. Can I stop waiting for the bottom to fall out?

[renmew]

This is an area of parenting I have trouble in, too. Last year I decided to stop spanking, and the house is happier for it. I've used more talking and lots of time outs. I'd say my kids can still be pains, but the over-all tension in the house has decreased some. It's a journey we are still on.

 

I cannot wrap my head around never punishing at all, though. As a teacher, I don't see how it works with all kids. I saw this video about bullying on Netflix the other day. There was a situation where two boys had a confrontation that began with the bully on this (for lack of a better word, sorry) nerdy-type kid. You could see that this had been going on for a while, and all the principal did was let the offending bully off the hook after he listened to her talk, apologized (for the umpteenth time, I'm sure), and offer a handshake. The victim wanted nothing of the handshake, and I didn't blame him. He gets to trade off getting treated like ¥#%? often for a couple words and a handshake? When he wanted nothing to do with the handshake, the principal turned the situation around on him and said he was being the problem now. Yeah, there's a kid who might explode at some point down the line, because he is being forced to be a doormat otherwise and it doesn't feel good to him. And some of you would let that situation continue? Or what else...

[Aspasia]

Such good advice! I'm taking notes. Thank you all so much!

 

 

 

I agree. No punishments or time outs here. My children are not perfect, but neither am I. We have discussions to get to the root of the behavior, not punishments to "change" behavior.

 

 

I can see how discussing works with a 5-year-old and up, and it is effective with mine. But I can't have discussions like this with my newly 3-year-old. Believe me, I try ALL the time. He simply isn't able to communicate much more than anger and frustration. I don't know how to figure this kid out. I don't understand why he does half the things he does. He's frustrated a lot, I understand that much. And sometimes I can figure out why just by considering the circumstances. But he is almost never able to communicate the underlying problem to me. And he's my toughest kid right now--explosive, can be violent, throws lengthy mega tantrums, never happy, always crying. It's exhausting. Sometimes I just don't have the energy to parent in the way I know I should, so I resort to timeout. I know, I sound lazy. And I feel lazy.

[plath]

Such good advice! I'm taking notes. Thank you all so much!

 

 

 

I can see how discussing works with a 5-year-old and up, and it is effective with mine. But I can't have discussions like this with my newly 3-year-old. Believe me, I try ALL the time. He simply isn't able to communicate much more than anger and frustration. I don't know how to figure this kid out. I don't understand why he does half the things he does. He's frustrated a lot, I understand that much. And sometimes I can figure out why just by considering the circumstances. But he is almost never able to communicate the underlying problem to me. And he's my toughest kid right now--explosive, can be violent, throws lengthy mega tantrums, never happy, always crying. It's exhausting. Sometimes I just don't have the energy to parent in the way I know I should, so I resort to timeout. I know, I sound lazy. And I feel lazy.

 

 

 

But if he doesn't understand reasoning, what makes you think he'll understand time outs? Time outs with my 2 1/2 year old would only lead to more melt downs and tantrumming. For her, the tantrums are due to frustration or hunger or tiredness, so I don't personally feel punishing is the solution in those situations. I can't imagine not being able to communicate all of those feelings that are so overwhelming at that age and then being punished for trying to get them out. If she's hungry and it's causing her to act out, I feed her. If it's because she's tired, I remove her from the situation. She definitely has limits and when she's overwhelmed, we're done. We also do a lot of distracting and when it's "fussy" or hunger time, we don't do activities. 2-3 has been the toughest age so far for us, so I feel your pain.

 

ETA: I do also repeat back how I think she's feeling, since she can't express it. Such as: "I know you're mad that your sister won't let you play with that and I'm sorry. You can play with it next" (and then I repeat back to her sister that A would like to play with the toy next. She's really looking forward to a turn, etc) or "I know you're hungry and I'll get you a snack as soon as we're home, ok?" Etc.

[Aspasia]

Children *naturally* want to grow, mature, and move on. You can't accelerate the process with time out, spanking, hot sauce, writing sentences, scripture, witholding social events.

 

This is a really good point. It's similar to something I realized lately, which is probably pretty obvious to most of you, but it was sort of epiphany for me: I realized that my goal is not for my children to act like civilized adults right now. I just want them to act like civilized adults by the time they actually become adults. Sounds obvious, right? And when it occurred to me, it was something that even I thought was obvious. But I hadn't ever consciously acknowledged it before, so I was sort of parenting in a way that expected adult behavior right now. It has been a part of my decision to have a parenting makeover.

[plath]

I really found the Louise Bates Ames development books very good at explaining what is developmentally appropriate for children to understand and do and it's helped my parenting skills immensely. There's one for every age.

[garddwr]

I would say that I enforce consequences for behavior, I would not use the word punish. I think for me it is primarily a matter of semantics. Here are the definitions of punish (according to Merriam-Webster online):

 

1

a : to impose a penalty on for a fault, offense, or violation

b : to inflict a penalty for the commission of (an offense) in retribution or retaliation

 

2

a : to deal with roughly or harshly

b : to inflict injury on : hurt

 

I think the first definition is in line with the way I deal with discipline in my household, but because the word "punish" has harsher and more negative connotations I don't use it (see the words "retaliation," "roughly," "harshly," and "inflict injury on : hurt" in the definitions above?) Those are not good descriptors for what I am attempting when I apply a consequence for inappropriate behavior.

 

ETA: I see others posted similar definitions earlier, I responded to the initial question before reading the thread.

[Rebel Yell]

Some books I have found helpful:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Discipline-Book-Better-Behaved-Child-Birth/dp/0316779032/ref=la_B000APRWIS_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1370355772&sr=1-2

 

http://www.amazon.com/Successful-Child-What-Parents-Help/dp/0316777498/ref=la_B000APRWIS_1_15?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1370355797&sr=1-15

 

Dr. Sears- he'e very "attachment parenting" and even if you don't fully follow that plan, there are many good insights to child behavior and discipline, meaning teaching.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Have-New-Kid-Friday-Character/dp/0800732189

Dr. Leman is funny. I don't 100% agree with everything, but this book gives easy practical suggestions.

 

I rarely punished, occasionally yelled. I try my hardest to differentiate between a child who is just being intentionally defieant (which was truly rare- not nearly as continual as some 'child training' books would have you believe) and just having a different opinion/viewpoint from me. I do believe in the Bible- that all humans are sinful from birth, but I don't believe that means that every.single.thing a child does is horrifically wicked- for example, being hungry, not liking tomato soup, or being a night owl. All taken from lectures I endured for my bad parenting skills. :glare:

 

Much of the time, bad behavior from my kids was a result of poor planning on my part, hunger, illness or illness coming on, tiredness, or my insistance that things be done my way and only my way and no other way no matter what. But on those occasions when for some reason it really really did need to be done my way, I explained it was best I could and we moved on.

 

Ugh- my thoughts are jumbly right now... mostly I just wanted to recommend the books. Good luck!

[Soror]

Non-perfect, striving to be a positive parent here. A few somewhat random thoughts.

 

Books I've enjoyed:

How to Talk so your kids will listen and listen so your kids will talk

Good to use as a frame-work and for scripts, not good when trying to use it as a manipulative tool, imo this is the starting off point but you have to build the relationship and it has to come from your heart and then come from your own thoughts. It helped me to think about how I would feel when given similar reactions.

 

Parents Do Make a Difference

One thing I've thought a lot about is trying to help my kids find their interests, grow to be best they can be and focus on their strengths. I really felt this book helped me think of concrete and simple ways to help them do this. It is not so much of the minutiae of every day activities but I really found it great for tips on being an encouraging parent, who also works on helping their child become independent.

 

 

I think often we (collective) talk way too much to the little ones trying to get them to mind and way too little to our older ones and when we talk it is too often at them instead of with them. We often have this pre-conceived idea as well of how our conversations to go- I tell you how horrible this thing is and you have a light bulb moment and repent and resolve to not misbehave any longer.

 

Yet again most of the time spent disciplining will be time spent on the relationship. I don't want me kids to do "good" because they are afraid of me or punishment. With little ones it is lots of redirection and setting up for success. IMO 3 yo's are just hard, period. I have a 3.5 yo right now so I'm in the thick of it! I think 3 is a much more difficult age than 2.

 

Relationship is about getting to know them, we want them to be happy and succeed(however you define success) more than anyone in the world. For me I realized that I needed to focus more on the physical, my family growing up was not a hugging family, I know that is weird but I it is something I am trying to change for us. I talk to them, and actually talk to them, engaging face to face. I try to keep an eye to what I think they will be interested in and provide opportunities for them. I look at how I can focus on their strengths instead of their weaknesses. I do however also try to take care of myself, for my own sanity. I am much more able to be a loving and patient mother when I get a bit of time to myself and decent sleep. We all need outside time and physical activity. We do things as a family. I think about my strengths and weaknesses as well. I pray daily. Finally, I have developed confidence in myself. I don't have to do everything perfect. They don't have to be perfect right now. Sometimes they do their best and I do as well. Every day is a new opportunity.

[albeto]

This is an area of parenting I have trouble in, too. Last year I decided to stop spanking, and the house is happier for it. I've used more talking and lots of time outs. I'd say my kids can still be pains, but the over-all tension in the house has decreased some. It's a journey we are still on.

 

I cannot wrap my head around never punishing at all, though. As a teacher, I don't see how it works with all kids. I saw this video about bullying on Netflix the other day. There was a situation where two boys had a confrontation that began with the bully on this (for lack of a better word, sorry) nerdy-type kid. You could see that this had been going on for a while, and all the principal did was let the offending bully off the hook after he listened to her talk, apologized (for the umpteenth time, I'm sure), and offer a handshake. The victim wanted nothing of the handshake, and I didn't blame him. He gets to trade off getting treated like ¥#%? often for a couple words and a handshake? When he wanted nothing to do with the handshake, the principal turned the situation around on him and said he was being the problem now. Yeah, there's a kid who might explode at some point down the line, because he is being forced to be a doormat otherwise and it doesn't feel good to him. And some of you would let that situation continue? Or what else...

 

I agree in that situation the handshake was nothing more than postponing the rest of the bullying, which was likely to continue many school years. However, we're talking about siblings in our homes. We're talking about deep relationships that don't exist between the hours of 8 and 3. What I would do as a teacher in that instance would be different than what I'd do as a mother, but I think the gist would be the same: Get them both on the same side.

 

There was a social psychological experiment done years go that explored the idea of people being on the same side v. different sides. The researchers used a children's camp to learn about this. They had the camp counselors divide the kids by some completely, random difference, but one that could be easily seen, like eye color. It was important to make sure this difference was obvious immediately and was completely out of control of the individual, and was something that had no social stigma attached to it. In the course of this camp, all activities were divided according to this difference. All competition was based on this difference. All positive, socially bonding activities were based on this difference. It didn't take long for the kids to start teasing kids from the other group, creating insults where there had never been insults before. There developed an animosity between the kids that concerned the counselors and researchers.

 

As it turns out, we have a natural tribal instinct built within us. We have a natural "us v them" mentality that we cannot help. It's strongest with kin, extends to community. The thing is, there's no natural boundary to this tribalism, so we can learn to stop it at family, adopted family (gang), community, country, religion, culture, human species, sentient species, earth-bound species. ;)

 

In response to the camp's troubles, the researchers decided to cut short their experiment and bring the two groups back together. They devised seemingly natural "accidents," like the bus carrying all the kids to some great spot for the day, getting stuck in the mud. The only way to get back to camp was for all the kids to work together against a common "enemy." The researchers did this over and over (not getting buses stuck in the mud!) until the kids stopped identifying themselves in terms of their first groups, and instead as members of the same camp.

 

So, all this long, boring explanation to say, if I were a teacher, I would create an environment in my classroom where the students were part of the same group, all part of "us." School pride would extend to community pride, and national pride would extend to human pride. But I'm not a teacher, I don't know how to create that kind of atmosphere, and I'm glad for that.

 

Besides, bullies don't bully for no reason. There's a reason for that. In our homes, when dealing with siblings, we're more aware of our kids' experiences so we can help them avoid becoming bullies, or help them avoid being bullied by encouraging confidence-building experiences and offering advice as it comes up.

[garddwr]

 

 

Here's the deal; kids mature mostly on a developmental timeline. Trust me, a 7 year old is not going to play with the remote or TV buttons like a 1 year old. 18 year olds are not going to make potty jokes (ok, maybe that is not the best example ;)). Children *naturally* want to grow, mature, and move on. You can't accelerate the process with time out, spanking, hot sauce, writing sentences, scripture, witholding social events.

 

 

Joanne, thank you for writing this--it fits with what I have always intuitively felt about children--that they are not trying to be bad, they are just dealing with the world as best they can--and that much of the behavior we find problematic is purely developmental.

 

I am wondering if you could recommend just one or two books that would be helpful to parents which would they be? I would be happy to read through all the authors your listed, but it might help to have a specific starting point.

[bolt.]

First, I guess we should define "punishment".

Punishment is defined (among non-punitive parents) specifically as a parental action designed and intended to cause discomfort to the child – a ‘negative reinforcement’ action. Something that says, “When you do things that I don’t approve of, I find a way to make you feel something you don’t like. If you don’t like what I do to you, maybe you should stop doing the thing I’m targeting.â€

I mean, if a kid repeatedly hits another kid with a toy, and you take away the offending toy, is that considered a punishment?

No. That’s, “Changing the situation so that the child is most likely to do something other than misbehave.†Taking away things that a child is ‘unsuccessful’ in using appropriately falls under the idea that we should always set our children up for ‘success’. It might upset a child to see a toy removed, but the design and intent is not, ‘I want to upset you, in order to motivate you to stop this’. The design is, ‘I want to make your play space friendly to everyone in it.’

 

A non-punitive parent does not say, “I would never do anything that would upset my kids.†– because lots of things they do for *good* reasons are also momentarily upsetting to the child. The do say, “I’m not trying to cause the upset. I’m trying to fix the situation. If upset happens, I offer comfort, because I don’t consider the upset to be part of what I’m actually ‘going for’.â€

Or does this just refer to things like time outs and grounding? What about extra chores?

Normal ‘time outs’ and ‘grounding’ are about using isolation and boredom as those “I want to upset you, in order to motivate you to stop it†tools. Boredom and isolation are upsetting.

 

However, some children calm themselves best when they are alone. Therefore some non-punitive parents with children of that type *do* use ‘time outs’ – but differently, as an act of kindness to try to help the child become calm (instead of continuing to be present if the parent’s presence is exacerbating the problem). Other non-punitive parents don’t use time outs at all.

Something similar to grounding might be seen if a child has hurt other people and can’t be allowed to resume normal relations until something is remedied. This is rare, and I’ve never encountered it myself.

 

Extra chores can be used as an “I can cause you upset†factor too… but they might be seen occasionally during the “making amends†phase of non-punitive parenting. A child who personally ‘wrongs’ someone else (another child or an adult) is usually guided to express their regret (once they do regret it) in some kind of age-appropriate concrete way. “Doing a favour†is one of those options for making amends, and some “favors†might be chore related. A child might be guided to that choice, or they might choose it of their own accord. (Also if a child makes a mess, the “chore†of making the space right again would fall to the child – with help as age-appropriate).

Second, if you don't punish, how DO you deal with undesirable behavior? If a kid breaks a rule, what do you do to encourage him not to break it again? Especially if it's a rule that he has repeatedly broken and doesn't seem to respect at all?

Generally in three steps: (1) Put a stop to the misbehaviour in the moment, then let the emotionality of the situation fade. (2) Clearly and age-appropriately teach, discuss and ‘act out’ all sorts of things to aim and motivate the child to replace their misbehaviour with a more desirable version… with a TON of repetition. {Note: “Discussion†with the littlest kids usually involves playing puppets. A puppet ‘has the same problem’ as your child, and you, the child and the puppet talk about the puppet’s problem and make plans to ‘help the puppet’.} (3) Lots of practice, working up from doing the right thing in ‘easy’ situations to harder ones, with a supportive parent who is highly focused on celebrating success. Occasionally, step (4) would happen when a child clearly *can* do the right thing (easily) and still refuses. Then natural consequences begin to play in. These differ from ‘punishments’ because they are designed to be relevant to the situation, helping the child ‘reap what s/he sows’ as a teaching tool, not just as “I can make this unpleasant for you†actions.

This varies from age to age and with all the kinds of behaviour you might see. It’s just a general framework.

Third, what resources on this style of parenting can you recommend?

Gentle Christian Mothers (website) and the associated resources for Christian stuff. Anything labelled “positive parenting†for secular resources.

So I just want to be a more positive parent, but I also don't want to let my kids walk all over me or just do whatever they want all the time. I want to set and maintain limits, but I want to do it in a way that doesn't breed resentment and that doesn't teach bullying. Help?

Limits are SO easy with non-punitive parenting. You just limit what you want to limit. Any limit is fine because you no longer have to think ‘is this important enough to get nasty about?’ – because your limits don’t involve anything nasty. There isn’t any ‘getting in trouble’. There isn’t any reason not to be pro-active and really focus on the things you want to change, because nobody has to ‘suffer’ in order to accomplish that change.

 

You just set a variety of goals to teach the kids to make better choices and focus on that. You just look at problems and problem-solve them without getting all hyped up over what’s so “wrong†with the kids’ behaviour. You just assume they are doing the best they can, and help them do better. So much simpler. Honest!

 

Some primary tools to start with are (a) the “When-Then†formula, ( b ) Redirecting with key-words, and ( c ) “Scripting†– unless you have some pretty strong behaviors to deal with right off the bat.

 

My house is so vibrantly calm! I just can’t express it. If you want to (largely) leave punishment behind, you are going to need a bit of a bigger toolbox, and you need to give yourself time and space to grow into new skills and reflexes. Maybe let us know specifically what you would like to start out with?

[RoundAbout]

I've seen comments here and there from parents who say they don't punish and I have a few questions for those parents.

 

First, I guess we should define "punishment". I mean, if a kid repeatedly hits another kid with a toy, and you take away the offending toy, is that considered a punishment? Or does this just refer to things like time outs and grounding? What about extra chores?

 

 

 

Second, if you don't punish, how DO you deal with undesirable behavior? If a kid breaks a rule, what do you do to encourage him not to break it again? Especially if it's a rule that he has repeatedly broken and doesn't seem to respect at all?

 

 

Much of it is a matter of perspective. Most behavior issues in our house can be explained by poor impulse control or bad mood. I consider these things that need to be worked on rather than punishable offenses. A friend of mine who was a special education teacher summed it up pretty well: "We wouldn't dream of making a kid stand in the corner because they haven't mastered math facts or can't read, but we think its perfectly acceptable to punish kids who haven't mastered social behavior or self-control."

 

Mostly we just talk and guide as needed. If I think my son is going to have problems with a particular object or situation then I closely supervise and am prepared to remove the item or him as needed. Talking before hand about expectations helps a lot.

 

I realize most no-punishment parents are big on philosophy and short on examples, so here's a specific problem we had recently and how I addressed it. Last week my son had developed a habit of taking snacks from the cupboard without asking. These are packaged snacks that we use for outings and our hiking and biking adventures. I handled it by:

 

-Clarifying that these are for trips. I realized that I might not have been clear about this with him before.

 

-Explained why the packaged snacks are only for outings (not super healthy but keep longer, don't require refrigeration, prevent us from buying overpriced snacks while out).

 

-Put them on a higher shelf so they are not so tempting.

 

-Realized he was bored with the usual stuff at home, and made an effort to have some yummmier everyday snacks (cut up fruit, yogurt). Kids are people too and his preferences deserve consideration as a member of the family.

 

Problem was solved with no yelling or punishing or anyone getting upset. If it had continued I would have just eliminated the snacks altogether. Then when we are on a hike with friends and everyone is pulling out cool stuff and we have just water and PBJ, I'd remind him why and ask him if he's ready to have snacks in the house again. Then I'd involve him in picking stuff out on our next grocery trip and see how he does.

[Alessandra]

An author I like is Madelyn Swift -- Discipline for Life: Getting It Right with Children; and Teach Your Children Well: A Parent's Guide to Encouraging Character and Integrity.

[Night Elf]

Lots of good answers. My short answers are:

 

lots of discussions, even when they were young

redirection

lots of play time with mom/dad

role-playing appropriate behavior

modeling good behavior

saying yes to them more

and the most important, treating them with respect

 

The most punitive thing we did was give them penalty points which meant going to bed early, 10 mins. for each point. That lasted about a week and they weren't getting points anymore. Some time after that we fell into radical unschooling and parenting and had no more bedtimes. They did very well with it after an initial craziness of taking advantage because it was new. Although we no longer unschool, we still parent the same way. People see it as neglectful, but I have the most respectful, caring kids so something must have been right. Just my personal experience.

[garddwr]

We operate pretty much like Night Elf does. Instead of earlier bedtimes though, I limit screen time. I guess in some cases this could be taken as a punishment because it isn't 100% of the time related to the issue, although it often is. I don't use that very often at all though.

 

I let a lot of stuff go. A lot of stuff is just not an issue for me. If I don't like something they are doing I tell them so. I try to phrase everything in terms of what I want them to do rather than just what I don't want them to do. For example, my 7 year old has this habit of running everywhere (and banging into stuff and hurting himself). That's pretty much a natural consequences thing built right in, but if I don't want him to run I don't say, "Don't run." I say, "Please walk slower." That sort of thing.

 

My kids rarely say anything obnoxious to me, but my 11 year old will from time to time. The other day he said something rude to me. I told him what he said was rude and hurtful and he should go and think about it somewhere else. I basically asked him to leave the kitchen where he was talking to me so he could go cool down. It's like what he said just slipped out because he was frustrated. He did realize his mistake. He cooled off for a few minutes and his mood was much better. We went on with our day. I'm certainly not perfect and have said less than nice things to my kids.

 

It's interesting because my kids will sometimes ask me to punish them because that seems less painful than for them to know I'm upset or disappointed in something they did. Apparently that is a pretty powerful thing. I was the same way as a kid though. If I screwed up, the guilt alone was punishment and a reminder to try harder next time.

 

 

 

I remember as a child that when my mom dealt with me for misbehaving I felt guilty, but if my dad dealt with me I was just mad. The difference was that my mom was disappointed in me, while my dad was angry at me. His anger tended to feel like an attack (though it was usually not expressed physically) and usually seemed worse to me than whatever I had done or not done that got me into trouble. Consequently I felt no guilt/repentance over my misbehavior at all.

 

I think punishment can sometimes feel to children like a sort of tit-for-tat exchange, with things either evening out or the child coming out behind. Under such circumstances why should the child feel repentant over what they did? They have more than paid for the behavior.

 

Of course, different children will experience and respond differently to the same situation.

[Sparkle]

Everyone has given great advice already, but I will just add that I have tried to build mutually affectionate and respectful relationships with my children. I have always tried to treat them as respectfully as I would another adult. I think this goes a long way towards getting them to "behave" in the first place, and understanding that their "misbehavior" is unacceptable when it occurs. I have really had to work on keeping *my* temper under control, and making sure that I don't start squabbling and yelling, since that just compounds the problem. Instead of looking at punishment as the first response to a situation, I try to respond positively, as in "What is wrong? What can be done to make this situation better?" And keeping in mind, like others mentioned, that a lot of behavior is developmental, and not *meant* to drive you crazy :)

[texasmama]

Everyone has given great advice already, but I will just add that I have tried to build mutually affectionate and respectful relationships with my children. I have always tried to treat them as respectfully as I would another adult. I think this goes a long way towards getting them to "behave" in the first place, and understanding that their "misbehavior" is unacceptable when it occurs. I have really had to work on keeping *my* temper under control, and making sure that I don't start squabbling and yelling, since that just compounds the problem. Instead of looking at punishment as the first response to a situation, I try to respond positively, as in "What is wrong? What can be done to make this situation better?" And keeping in mind, like others mentioned, that a lot of behavior is developmental, and not *meant* to drive you crazy :)

This very much describes my parenting. I find that by talking to them and trying to understand them and explaining myself and getting them to try to understand me, things go pretty well most of the time. I do limit activities that seem to cause problems (basketball between my ds's). I talk about having peace in the house. They (mostly) do want to please me so this helps their cooperation level. I rarely mete out punishments because it truly hurts me to do so.

[Guest]

I've seen comments here and there from parents who say they don't punish and I have a few questions for those parents.

 

First, I guess we should define "punishment". I mean, if a kid repeatedly hits another kid with a toy, and you take away the offending toy, is that considered a punishment? Or does this just refer to things like time outs and grounding? What about extra chores?

 

Second, if you don't punish, how DO you deal with undesirable behavior? If a kid breaks a rule, what do you do to encourage him not to break it again? Especially if it's a rule that he has repeatedly broken and doesn't seem to respect at all?

 

Third, what resources on this style of parenting can you recommend?

 

I just feel like my parenting needs an overhaul. I haven't generally considered myself a mega punisher, but I hear my kids in their play, saying things like, "If you do that again, then...". I hate it. It sounds like bullying to me. But I also know where they learned it and it makes me feel horrible. Plus, sometimes I feel like the energy in our house is just kinda negative overall--lots of bickering, whining, arguing...and, okay, yelling. I definitely feel responsible for it. I mean, I'm the mom. If I'm not the one setting the tone, then who is? So I just want to be a more positive parent, but I also don't want to let my kids walk all over me or just do whatever they want all the time. I want to set and maintain limits, but I want to do it in a way that doesn't breed resentment and that doesn't teach bullying. Help?

 

 

Hi. I intentionally have not read the other replies, because I didn't want to get derailed in my response.

 

Your first question: I would not consider taking away the toy a punishment; I call that setting a limit/creating a boundary. However, I also would avoid letting it get to "multiple times." Hitting another child with a toy requires immediate intervention. I would recommend much more than taking away the toy. I would seek to understand the entire picture. I would not just take away the toy and then go away; I would stay, interact, watch or whatever was necessary to rectify the problem. Behavior happens within a larger picture, so I would do whatever I could to insert myself into the larger picture. Does that make sense?

 

Personally, I don't give extra chores as a punishment. I frame all necessary work around the house as, "This is what we do to mutually benefit each other. We all help keep things running smoothly." Chores-as-punishment totally destroys this framing. It says chores are bad things to avoid and try to get out of. P.S. I could give a natural consequence that would appear to be a chore in a particular instance, though. Such as if a child was being goofy and got popcorn all over the floor, then, naturally, they must clean up the popcorn.

 

I don't punish as a general rule (spanking, grounding). I don't mind time-outs done the way Supernanny does them. I didn't use that when mine were little, but it doesn't offend me. Having said that, I do think the optimal strategy is always to move toward teaching correct behavior. Isn't that what we mean to do anyway? I strongly, strongly, strongly agree with Joanne's (on these boards) Get Off Your Butt parenting. Is the child teasing the kitty? Get Off Your Butt, go to Junior and show-and-tell him the right way to pet the kitty. Is it time to put their shoes on to leave, but they are still laying on the floor, ignoring you? Get Off Your Butt, go to Junior and say, "You need to put your shoes on now; we are leaving." If they do not act, you do. Talk to them, firmly. They need to see that it is inevitable that they will do as you say because you will back up every instruction with action if necessary. I don't yell at my kids, but I do speak with an aura of "I'm not messing around" firmness. I believe the G.O.Y.B. method instilled this - they know that I mean what I say. I'm not going to beg and act like a weenie, but I'm not going to smack them silly in a parental temper tantrum, either.

 

Lastly, it is all relationship. That is what it comes down to. If you have the relationship, the kid is much more likely to do as you say; perhaps not so much when they are 3, but when they are 13? Yes. Honestly, one of my kids was so unbelievably hard-headed, I truly thought he would never learn to obey. He is 8 now, and, though he is still spunky and has a lot of fire, he is a good kid. I have very little difficulty with him. Teachers at our co-op who didn't know him as a toddler are astounded when I tell them how hard he was.

 

My favorite resources were:

 

1) anything Joanne said

2) "Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline"

3) "Kids are Worth it"

 

I also discovered "Supernanny" late in the game, but I like most of what she does on the TV shows that I've seen.

 

There were others, but I thought those were the very best.

[Soror]

fwiw I did want to say that of course keep in mind as with anything there is a continuum. I know I can sometimes get caught up in the rules of something, especially when an idea is new and fresh and want to make sure I do it just "right." However, of course every family is different and what is considered right by one is considered horrid by another. I may never be able to live up to textbook standards of positive, non-punitive parent but none of it matters. What matters is the relationship I form with my kids. I've felt so much more peace when I've stopped worrying as much about everyone else's standards and thoughts. (I do still worry more than I should but it gets easier as time goes on and I'm also more aware of what is developmentally appropriate and able to often avoid meltdown or other challenging situations) My kids think I'm awesome and I think they're pretty great as well. Focus on the relationship and often the behavior follows suite. As other posters stated I do try hard to treat them as I want to be treated. I have high expectations though as well of them and of myself. I try to model well and when we have a bad day, well there is always the next one.

 

another fwiw I get lots of compliments on the behavior of my children as well. Some elderly lady brought them candy in church last week and quite often we get positive comments when we are out.

 

eta: I do like some of Super Nanny as well from what I've watched. She does not allow spanking and from what I see I think she often puts the focus on the parents relationships w/ the kids. Now, other things I heartily disagree with her, co-sleeping and weaning to name a few but I think that is great that she gets parents to engage w/ their kids.

 

I like the phrase GOYB as well. That is quite a lot of it when they are smaller.

[Guest]

Such good advice! I'm taking notes. Thank you all so much! I can see how discussing works with a 5-year-old and up, and it is effective with mine. But I can't have discussions like this with my newly 3-year-old. Believe me, I try ALL the time. He simply isn't able to communicate much more than anger and frustration. I don't know how to figure this kid out. I don't understand why he does half the things he does. He's frustrated a lot, I understand that much. And sometimes I can figure out why just by considering the circumstances. But he is almost never able to communicate the underlying problem to me. And he's my toughest kid right now--explosive, can be violent, throws lengthy mega tantrums, never happy, always crying. It's exhausting. Sometimes I just don't have the energy to parent in the way I know I should, so I resort to timeout. I know, I sound lazy. And I feel lazy.

 

Man, I have so been there. Seriously, my youngest was baffling until he was 4-5 years old. I had him tested for several things and had him evaluated at a neurological/behavioral specialist. He cried over EVERYthing. I thought it would never end. He was hair-trigger. He threw tantrums that could make Satan cry. He just plain seemed unhappy/unwell and miserable a large amount of the time. I never did figure it out. We just weathered it. It IS exhausting, I totally understand. Two things helped: 1) Give him a job; 2) engage with him directly in play. If I gave him a specific job to do, his energy was much better used. Fold cloth napkins. Pick up sticks in the yard. Whatever. I've read before that smart dogs need meaningful work to do or they become destructive. I truly think this parallels this kid! For 2), if I would sit and put together wooden train track for 30 minutes, playing with him right on the floor, I think it "filled his tank." He just wasn't so needy if we started the day this way.

 

This is a really good point. It's similar to something I realized lately, which is probably pretty obvious to most of you, but it was sort of epiphany for me: I realized that my goal is not for my children to act like civilized adults right now. I just want them to act like civilized adults by the time they actually become adults. Sounds obvious, right? And when it occurred to me, it was something that even I thought was obvious. But I hadn't ever consciously acknowledged it before, so I was sort of parenting in a way that expected adult behavior right now. It has been a part of my decision to have a parenting makeover.

 

Very true. When my difficult kid was little, I was so fearful that he would never become a sensible person. I had fears that my parenting approach would not "work" with such a fireball. Granted, he is not done growing up yet, but it's hard to even remember what a pill he was. He's a great kid now.

[texasmama]

 

 

Man, I have so been there. Seriously, my youngest was baffling until he was 4-5 years old. I had him tested for several things and had him evaluated at a neurological/behavioral specialist. He cried over EVERYthing. I thought it would never end. He was hair-trigger. He threw tantrums that could make Satan cry. He just plain seemed unhappy/unwell and miserable a large amount of the time. I never did figure it out. We just weathered it. It IS exhausting, I totally understand. Two things helped: 1) Give him a job; 2) engage with him directly in play. If I gave him a specific job to do, his energy was much better used. Fold cloth napkins. Pick up sticks in the yard. Whatever. I've read before that smart dogs need meaningful work to do or they become destructive. I truly think this parallels this kid! For 2), if I would sit and put together wooden train track for 30 minutes, playing with him right on the floor, I think it "filled his tank." He just wasn't so needy if we started the day this way.

 

 

 

Very true. When my difficult kid was little, I was so fearful that he would never become a sensible person. I had fears that my parenting approach would not "work" with such a fireball. Granted, he is not done growing up yet, but it's hard to even remember what a pill he was. He's a great kid now.

I have this child, too. I finally figured out that we would just need to buckle up for the roller coaster ride until he matured enough to get past this. And he (mostly) is. :) I'm so very glad that I was not punitive. It would have broken his spirit to use the amount of force needed to attempt to control him. I did not always parent him perfectly or patiently, but I am satisfied that I met his needs the best way I could and did not do damage during those tough years. He's a cool little boy now, and I really enjoy him. Mostly. ;)

[plath]

 

Man, I have so been there. Seriously, my youngest was baffling until he was 4-5 years old. I had him tested for several things and had him evaluated at a neurological/behavioral specialist. He cried over EVERYthing. I thought it would never end. He was hair-trigger. He threw tantrums that could make Satan cry. He just plain seemed unhappy/unwell and miserable a large amount of the time. I never did figure it out. We just weathered it. It IS exhausting, I totally understand. Two things helped: 1) Give him a job; 2) engage with him directly in play. If I gave him a specific job to do, his energy was much better used. Fold cloth napkins. Pick up sticks in the yard. Whatever. I've read before that smart dogs need meaningful work to do or they become destructive. I truly think this parallels this kid! For 2), if I would sit and put together wooden train track for 30 minutes, playing with him right on the floor, I think it "filled his tank." He just wasn't so needy if we started the day this way.

Now that you mention it, I often "distract" dd2 with giving her jobs when she's having grumpy times and she immediately pulls out of her meltdown and LOVES them. She sets the table, helps empty the dishwasher, sorts laundry, etc. I've come to do it without thinking, but it is such a handy tool! And now that I'm consciously aware of it, I'll definitely be doing it more.

[Aspasia]

 

 

Man, I have so been there. Seriously, my youngest was baffling until he was 4-5 years old. I had him tested for several things and had him evaluated at a neurological/behavioral specialist. He cried over EVERYthing. I thought it would never end. He was hair-trigger. He threw tantrums that could make Satan cry. He just plain seemed unhappy/unwell and miserable a large amount of the time. I never did figure it out. We just weathered it. It IS exhausting, I totally understand. Two things helped: 1) Give him a job; 2) engage with him directly in play. If I gave him a specific job to do, his energy was much better used. Fold cloth napkins. Pick up sticks in the yard. Whatever. I've read before that smart dogs need meaningful work to do or they become destructive. I truly think this parallels this kid! For 2), if I would sit and put together wooden train track for 30 minutes, playing with him right on the floor, I think it "filled his tank." He just wasn't so needy if we started the day this way.

 

 

 

Very true. When my difficult kid was little, I was so fearful that he would never become a sensible person. I had fears that my parenting approach would not "work" with such a fireball. Granted, he is not done growing up yet, but it's hard to even remember what a pill he was. He's a great kid now.

 

Yes! You have no idea how helpful this is to me! I just went to the doctor yesterday for the second time in a week because I feel like there MUST me something "off" with this kid. He is almost always unhappy, crying, tantruming, etc. "Baffling" is the exact same word dh and I use when we discuss him. We are just clueless as to how to deal with him everyday. Thank you for your suggestions and the hope that maybe this won't last forever.

 

[misty.warden]

My son puts himself in time out (I'm working on curbing his door slamming, he's 4 going on 14 and female apparently) when he starts winding up for a fit, but we've framed it in "Do you need a break from this situation to calm down?" since he was about 2, so I wouldn't describe it as being punished by being alone as a negative consequence so much as getting away from whatever the fit was about and redirecting himself and telling me why he's upset and what the feeling is. It doesn't work every time of course, but he's impressed me a few times with stopping himself from getting to "making Satan cry" levels and naming his feelings so I'm not just groping for an alternate activity.

[LucyStoner]

I think Joanne needs to publish a book and workbook series based on her Get off Your Butt parenting page. You'd be a bestseller Joanne!

 

ETA: Seriously, while I know it's not like you don't have 57,945 other things on your plate Joanne, with the right marketing, you could be a downright sensation. I haven't read anything more helpful about parenting and discipline than your old website. And believe me, that is not for a lack of reading. Your stuff really helped not just me, but also my husband and a number of friends. I am sorry to see that goybparenting.com is defunct. It's the core of my parenting toolbox and the strategies have been helpful with both my autistic and neurotypical sons. I really can't thank you enough for putting up that page years and years ago. I found that site a long time before I ever came to WTM.

[LibraryLover]

I agree. People need to get up and be with their kids. Calling orders etc from across the room (this is not directed to the op!!!) does not help a child.

 

I think parents and children need to make time for fun. Good times and playfulness is bonding. Children are less likely to act out as they get older (little children tend to become frustrated more easily. This is developmental) when they feel connected and cared for by their primary caregivers.

 

Laugh more, discipline less. Little kids want to please those they love. They want you to think the best of them. So many behaviors we worry over are outgrown. We don't need to sweat so much.

[LibraryLover]

Bucolic, given the very young ages of your children, I am sure you are exhausted.

 

Is there a way you can get a little bit of a helping hand? Is there a hsing group in your area? Maybe you could find a young teen who might like to be a mother's helper a couple/few hours a week? My best mother's helper was 12 years old, and the daughter of a friend who was a bfing counselor. That helped tremendously. You're still there, but someone else is pushing the littles on the swing, and putting crackers on the table.

 

Everyone needs recharging. If the helper is in the house, safe and snug, reading to the children or sitting with them as they watch a movie, you might even be able to rest in your room with the baby. It's not like you would be leaving for a cruise around the world. Most anyone can put cheese on a plate, or roll out playdough coils. :)

[dirty ethel rackham]

You have received great advice thus far and I don't have anything to add here as it has all been said.

 

Such good advice! I'm taking notes. Thank you all so much!

 

 

 

I can see how discussing works with a 5-year-old and up, and it is effective with mine. But I can't have discussions like this with my newly 3-year-old. Believe me, I try ALL the time. He simply isn't able to communicate much more than anger and frustration. I don't know how to figure this kid out. I don't understand why he does half the things he does. He's frustrated a lot, I understand that much. And sometimes I can figure out why just by considering the circumstances. But he is almost never able to communicate the underlying problem to me. And he's my toughest kid right now--explosive, can be violent, throws lengthy mega tantrums, never happy, always crying. It's exhausting. Sometimes I just don't have the energy to parent in the way I know I should, so I resort to timeout. I know, I sound lazy. And I feel lazy.

 

 

One thing that popped in my head when I read this is possible sensory issues. This described my middle son. I just put it down to him being a "spirited" 3 year old. But when he got older and didn't outgrow the tantrums and frustrations, it became clear that something wasn't right. Of course, I was totally defensive when people told me I just needed to spank him or punish him out of it. We figured out at about 6 that this was sensory related - he was a sensory avoider and found the world to be an overwhelming place. Therapy to deal with his sensory issues and retrain the brain on how to process them made a huge difference in our lives. My child was smiling again.

 

So, what I am saying is that it could be just that your child is 3 ... I called them the terrible threes versus the terrific twos. This could just be developmental and he just needs tools to deal with his frustration and needs to learn a vocabulary for what he feels - hard to do when you go from OK to Red Fog in 10 seconds flat. But keep this in the back of your head. Better yet, read The Out-of-Sync Child and The Out-of-Sync Child has fun for some ideas on dealing with sensory issues.

[kiwik]

Mine has gone from terrible threes to furious fours. He just gets son frustrated, so angry, so often. The one thing I think would help (more time at home with me) is the one thing I can't give him.

 

Does anyone else have a child for whom distraction just prolongs the suffering for all concerned?

[Guest Natalie2b]

I remember as a child that when my mom dealt with me for misbehaving I felt guilty, but if my dad dealt with me I was just mad. The difference was that my mom was disappointed in me, while my dad was angry at me. His anger tended to feel like an attack (though it was usually not expressed physically) and usually seemed worse to me than whatever I had done or not done that got me into trouble. Consequently I felt no guilt/repentance over my misbehavior at all.

 

 

 

This was truly profound for me. I could never put my finger on why some of my friends were truly upset when they got in trouble with their parents and I really was indifferent (even if there was a punishment). Looking back as an adult I could not articulate the difference or figure out what exactly those parents were doing (obviously that is the type of parent I strive to be!) that was different than my parents. I didn't have bad parents or uncaring parents - but they were definitely angry. HUGE! This will absolutely change the way I look at parenting my kids!

 

Bucolic - you might consider doing a little research on diet. It could be nothing and not relevant to you - but my husbands coworker (from years ago) had an adopted son from the Ukraine who had severe allergies to food additives. Any coloring, preservatives, additives... sent him into fits of tears, rage... When she kept him on strictly home made from scratch foods he was a normal, smiling kid - when he was given something in school he would come home in fits, crying for hours at a time until it was out of his system.

 

There are a lot of sites about how diet affects us more profoundly than we realize - I would have written most of it off as kooky before I saw my husbands reactions to foods (gluten, dairy, sugar...). That said, my middle guy is MUCH more emotional and sensitive than my other two. He is much harder to parent and a lot more work. We are working to clean up all of our diets (Weston A Price, traditional foods/eating type diet), but I have just made peace that he is very much different than his very easy logic based brothers.

 

I googled "Get Off Your Butt Parenting" and found this for anyone else interested (I was!):

 

http://joanneaz_2.tr...enter/id23.html

[Soror]

Oh, on the diet, it made a HUGE difference in my son. His behavior was bad, really bad at times and wonderful at others. He was just so exhausting. I took him off gluten/dairy/soy/food dyes/preservatives/ Salicylates(feingold) at the same time. It was night and day he was so much calmer. Before I felt like I couldn't reach him at all. Dh thought that we just need to discipline more and "harder." I really and truly believed he couldn't help it, not that it was acceptable, mind you. He was so much calmer after that. He sleeps so good. I'd forgotten as we switched his diet when he was 4 and he is almost 9 now. He was a different sort of challenging then my last 2, who are the screaming dramatic sort. I always joked that with ds it was no wonder I was thin trying to keep up with him. I seriously considered having dh hang the chairs on the walls as I redirected him 5552 times not to climb the blasted things and he just kept doing it. My newest baby seems much like him, she needs lots of stimulation, wants to be constantly moving. It is a bit easier though already as she has siblings to help keep her entertained.

[diplomum]

Non-perfect, striving to be a positive parent here. A few somewhat random thoughts.

 

Books I've enjoyed:

How to Talk so your kids will listen and listen so your kids will talk

Good to use as a frame-work and for scripts, not good when trying to use it as a manipulative tool, imo this is the starting off point but you have to build the relationship and it has to come from your heart and then come from your own thoughts. It helped me to think about how I would feel when given similar reactions.

 

 

 

This is the book I would recommend. The authors originally developed the program for parents of foster kids - no spanking allowed. But I re-read this one all the time because it does help with the negativity the OP talked about. Somehow some of the simplest tips are the most effective, and it is always a good wake up call when I have slipped back into my negative ways.

 

Some folks mentioned discussion but I would add a caveat that it can, too, be manipulated so that every.single.thing. needs to be discussed and discussed ad nauseum before any action can take place. This is my 15yo. We call him the loophole king. So it is back to knowing your child and tailoring accordingly.

 

I will say that over the years I have relaxed a lot and if anything my kids are better behaved. At least there is less stress and less yelling. I watch so many parents get into huge fights over "take one more bite" or "say you're sorry" because they've thrown down the ultimatum and then have to follow through. So I tend not to use ultimatums and then I am in control of how I want to deal with not finishing dinner, for example. Kid who had a lot of snacks at a playdate? Let it go. Kid who really needs to eat but is too excited? - save it for when they come running to me starving. Kid who hates what's in front of them? - encourage them to try and possibly provide an appropriate alternative if available.

 

I also give them a second chance to do-over something that came out rude or snarky. With little ones I distract and redirect rather than punish. Putting a two year old in a time out just leads to more anger and frustration on both our parts. If a kid keeps banging a toy on a table after I've asked them not to, rather than keep shouting "no!" and then ending the whole thing with a time out when the 2yo doesn't stop, I would probably look around for a soft toy or something more engaging or just grab the kid and go play outside or sit them on the kitchen floor with pots and pans and let them bang those.

 

Punishments as I understand them would be reserved for serious infractions and really only with older kids. Even then we would probably use the How to Talk method and look at it as a problem that needs a solution and make the kid come up with suggestions and consequences.

 

Good luck OP with your changes. I found it a huge burden to be the whole "tone" of the house, especially when I felt I was being such a negative influence. You can make small changes, though, that will make a HUGE difference.

[diplomum]

Mine has gone from terrible threes to furious fours. He just gets son frustrated, so angry, so often. The one thing I think would help (more time at home with me) is the one thing I can't give him.

 

Does anyone else have a child for whom distraction just prolongs the suffering for all concerned?

 

 

I think four is too old for everything except the most amazing of distractions - FIREWORKS! A TRIP TO THE ZOO! A GIANT ICE CREAM CONE! And a stubborn kid might even reject those if they've really got their heels dug in.

 

Acknowledging the frustration helps sometimes. Naming it. Redirecting it. Seeking alternatives together. Look for solutions. Throw in humour. Perhaps if you give a specific example some of us could suggest things we might do in a similar scenario and you might find an idea or two you can implement?

[Soror]

 

 

Some folks mentioned discussion but I would add a caveat that it can, too, be manipulated so that every.single.thing. needs to be discussed and discussed ad nauseum before any action can take place. This is my 15yo. We call him the loophole king. So it is back to knowing your child and tailoring accordingly.

I know as well when I do something wrong I don't want to have a big discussion. Discussions can easily lead to nagging, which nobody likes. I try to think if I'm really conveying new information? Is it really going to be helpful.

 

I will say that over the years I have relaxed a lot and if anything my kids are better behaved. At least there is less stress and less yelling. I watch so many parents get into huge fights over "take one more bite" or "say you're sorry" because they've thrown down the ultimatum and then have to follow through. So I tend not to use ultimatums and then I am in control of how I want to deal with not finishing dinner, for example. Kid who had a lot of snacks at a playdate? Let it go. Kid who really needs to eat but is too excited? - save it for when they come running to me starving. Kid who hates what's in front of them? - encourage them to try and possibly provide an appropriate alternative if available.

YES! Not everything has to be a battle and we focus on the important things. So many times we get wrapped up in such stupid stuff with little kids, stuff that doesn't matter at all. That and not preparing kids for what is happening are big things I notice that make a big difference.

 

I also give them a second chance to do-over something that came out rude or snarky. With little ones I distract and redirect rather than punish. Putting a two year old in a time out just leads to more anger and frustration on both our parts. If a kid keeps banging a toy on a table after I've asked them not to, rather than keep shouting "no!" and then ending the whole thing with a time out when the 2yo doesn't stop, I would probably look around for a soft toy or something more engaging or just grab the kid and go play outside or sit them on the kitchen floor with pots and pans and let them bang those.

 

Punishments as I understand them would be reserved for serious infractions and really only with older kids. Even then we would probably use the How to Talk method and look at it as a problem that needs a solution and make the kid come up with suggestions and consequences.

 

Good luck OP with your changes. I found it a huge burden to be the whole "tone" of the house, especially when I felt I was being such a negative influence. You can make small changes, though, that will make a HUGE difference.

 

It is hard at first but each little bit makes it easier. I find that although I want to be a certain kind of parent the changes don't come overnight, which helps me keep in perspective that change isn't easy for them either.