Ask an atheist

[Joanne]

1. No, I wasn't always there. I always believed in the Christian god (I was born into and Irish-Italian Catholic family) even though I wasn't always devout. In fact, I was never actually devout. Still, I thought god in general and God in particular was real. What led to my deconversion was coming in contact with fundamentalists (I never knew they existed until we started homeschooling). That started me questioning my own beliefs. The process was gradual but the end was quick, if that makes any sense. I read a lot from both believers and atheists. I explored other belief systems. I toyed with New Age beliefs. That's the gradual part. Then one day (not a day I can point to - it just happened) I decided none of it is real.

 

2. On the scale 7 says "I know there is no god." I concede that none of us really know that, so I don't call myself a full 7. I don't really believe that there are and I'd like to call myself a 7, but how can I say I know that for sure? I don't worry about it though. I simply no longer believe in anything supernatural.

 

The first part of #1 describes me. I was born and raised in a liberal Christian denomination. I didn't know what a "conservative Christian" was until I began parenting, so 1995. That led me to question conservative Christianity, later Christianity at all. Eventually, I eliminated any exclusive religion or organized religion at all. I played with Pagan spirituality (Wicca, Pagan, Witch) but that didn't fit, either. I still have some New Age/Energy beliefs which disallows me from totally claiming atheist.

[HRAAB]

1. No, I wasn't always there. I always believed in the Christian god (I was born into and Irish-Italian Catholic family) even though I wasn't always devout. In fact, I was never actually devout. Still, I thought god in general and God in particular was real. What led to my deconversion was coming in contact with fundamentalists (I never knew they existed until we started homeschooling). That started me questioning my own beliefs. The process was gradual but the end was quick, if that makes any sense. I read a lot from both believers and atheists. I explored other belief systems. I toyed with New Age beliefs. That's the gradual part. Then one day (not a day I can point to - it just happened) I decided none of it is real.

 

 

This also describes me.  Fundamentalists and very conservative Catholics were the catalyst for my deconversion, and I didn't meet any of them until I had children.  I had some questions prior to that time, but it was after getting involved with conservative Christians that it all started falling apart.  I remember sitting week after week in Mass and realizing none of it was real in a literal, factual sense.  That there could be truths hidden in the story - yes - but not literally true.  It still took time for me to work through it.

[mama27]

Who do athiests think Jesus is?

[Onceuponatime]

In my understanding, there is no consensus on this. Some do not believe he ever existed and that he is mythical and symbolic. Others that he was a radical revolutionary that became something of a legend. There are different positions that fall somewhere on a spectrum, but none think that he was any more divine than any other human.

[Audrey]

IMO, Jesus is the Paul Bunyan of the bible tales.  A figure to whom fablers have attached an amalgam of embellished feats of wonder that may or may not have been based on events that may or may not have had some vaguely tenuous root in reality and may or may not have happened to actual existing people.

[Mom-ninja.]

IMO, Jesus is the Paul Bunyan of the bible tales.  A figure to whom fablers have attached an amalgam of embellished feats of wonder that may or may not have been based on events that may or may not have had some vaguely tenuous root in reality and may or may not have happened to actual existing people.

 

Jesus wasn't the only one in the Bible doing Paul Bunyan type feats either. Other prophets before him were healing the sick (including lepers), changing water into wine, making one loaf of bread into a lot, and bringing people back from death. They didn't reach fame status though. Except maybe Moses.

[BrookValley.]

IMO, Jesus is the Paul Bunyan of the bible tales.  A figure to whom fablers have attached an amalgam of embellished feats of wonder that may or may not have been based on events that may or may not have had some vaguely tenuous root in reality and may or may not have happened to actual existing people.

 

That pretty much sums up where I am on the subject of Jesus.

[Mom in High Heels]

Who do athiests think Jesus is?

 

I believe he was a real person, with a message of peace, love and kindness, which is perfectly fine, as that's a good message.  Do I think he was the son of god?  Nope.  He was a bit of a revolutionary, and that's okay, some people are.  I do not, however believe he performed miracles or any of that stuff.  I think his followers made him into the legend.

 

If someone wandered around today telling people he was the son of god, whether he had a peaceful message or not, people would think he's crazy.  Pretty much no one would take him seriously.  Why is it crazy today, yet perfectly acceptable because it happened 2000 years ago?

[mamaraby]

Who do athiests think Jesus is?

 

I defer to the historical consensus which at this point is that the likelihood of a historical Jesus is pretty small.  There is some disagreement on the matter, but until there's a wider gap, I'm content to be remain agnostic on the matter.

 

In the end, though, whether or not the historical Jesus existed is really a non-issue for me.  My disbelief does not hinge on the existence of Jesus as I think Christianity is just as unlikely if Jesus did exist as if he didn't.  If there was a historical Jesus, then he was as a person and not a godman who performed miracles and rose from the dead.  The analogy with Paul Bunyan is pretty apt, I think.

[HRAAB]

Who do athiests think Jesus is?

 

A man who lived around 2000 years ago, preached, and had followers.  I have no problems with Jesus; just with what he's been turned into.

 

I know there are those who don't believe Jesus ever existed.  I've never read anything about this perspective.  I think it might be interesting, but it's never been a line of thinking that I've researched.

[albeto.]

 The argument against his existence is increasingly persuasive, and it's far more plausible that his is a story derived over time, throughout many religious communities, only eventually being combined into one, somewhat unified theology. This would explain why certain diametrically opposing theological dogmas are held simultaneously (like free will and predestination, the various mechanics of justification, the nature and character of the god of the bible, etc). It would also explain why he walks on water, raises the dead, and slays demons. 

 

One of the reasons the argument against his existence is increasingly persuasive is because we have more knowledge about the religions of this time, and in this region. For example, the evolution of the faith of the god of the Israelites follows a familiar path, historically speaking: 

• syncretism - evolves over time to incorporate the beliefs of the religions and morals of other cultures
• monotheistic trend - the main god evolves from a polytheistic, to henotheistic (one major god, lesser gods), to monotheistic god
• agricultural cults (dies and rises, with seasons, fertility, crops, community) move to individual salvation religion (personal resurrection through metaphor of god’s rebirth)
• cosmopolitanism - everyone is one brotherhood, united community (from celebrating public religions to choosing personal religion to be a part of)

Also we see the effect of the Greeks and Romans on the religions in this part of the world. Some examples of Hellenistic religious ideas merged with foreign religious ideas include:

• Eleusinian & Dionysian mysteries (Phoenecian religion from west. Syria)
• Attis and Cybele mysteries (Phrygean religion from northern Turkey)
• mysteries of Jupiter Dolichenus (Anatolian religion from western Turkey)
• mysteries of Mythras (Persian religion from Iran)
• Isis & Osiris mysteries (Egyptian religion)
• Christ mystery (Jewish religion from Israel & Palestine)

We have evidence of dying & rising gods that offer eternal salvation that predate Christianity: Romulus, a Roman state god whose death & resurrection were celebrated in annual plays. Osiris, an Egyptian god who offers salvation in afterlife to those baptised into his death and resurrection. Zalmoxis, a Thracian god whose death & resurrection assures followers eternal life. The idea that Jesus, whose stories and claims mirror these, is the really real deal is simply extraordinary. This requires extraordinary evidence. Thus far, none has been uncovered, not even ordinary. In my opinion, Jesus is simply the character unique to the Jewish/Hellenistic religious stories and moral tales. In any case, I know a lot of non-believers think he's a wonderful role model, a kind of moral hero. I think that argument is accepted only because it is tradition, and it is not an opinion I share. 

[AlmiraGulch]

Jesus for me is a story I quite like. I appreciate some of the wisdom sayings attributed to him. I have positive feelings about him as a revolutionary hero-type figure. I don't believe he was divine, and I bow to those with greater knowledge and interest as to whether there was a historical Jesus.

 

Pretty much this for me, too.  I do believe he existed and that his message was positive.    I also don't believe he was divine.  

[Lady Florida.]

I defer to the historical consensus which at this point is that the likelihood of a historical Jesus is pretty small.  There is some disagreement on the matter, but until there's a wider gap, I'm content to be remain agnostic on the matter.

 

In the end, though, whether or not the historical Jesus existed is really a non-issue for me.  My disbelief does not hinge on the existence of Jesus as I think Christianity is just as unlikely if Jesus did exist as if he didn't.  If there was a historical Jesus, then he was as a person and not a godman who performed miracles and rose from the dead.  The analogy with Paul Bunyan is pretty apt, I think.

 

 

I agree with this. Until recently I thought there was an historical Jesus who was not a god, but not so much anymore. Most of the scholars who believe that the man at least existed, are biblical scholars. Few historians outside Christianity believe that.

 

 

And like maramby, it doesn't really matter to me. If he did exist, he was either just like a bunch of other prophets of his time, or as others said, he was Paul Bunyan type.

[AlmiraGulch]

 The argument against his existence is increasingly persuasive, and it's far more plausible that his is a story derived over time, throughout many religious communities, only eventually being combined into one, somewhat unified theology. This would explain why certain diametrically opposing theological dogmas are held simultaneously (like free will and predestination, the various mechanics of justification, the nature and character of the god of the bible, etc). It would also explain why he walks on water, raises the dead, and slays demons. 

 

One of the reasons the argument against his existence is increasingly persuasive is because we have more knowledge about the religions of this time, and in this region. For example, the evolution of the faith of the god of the Israelites follows a familiar path, historically speaking: 

• syncretism - evolves over time to incorporate the beliefs of the religions and morals of other cultures
• monotheistic trend - the main god evolves from a polytheistic, to henotheistic (one major god, lesser gods), to monotheistic god
• agricultural cults (dies and rises, with seasons, fertility, crops, community) move to individual salvation religion (personal resurrection through metaphor of god’s rebirth)
• cosmopolitanism - everyone is one brotherhood, united community (from celebrating public religions to choosing personal religion to be a part of)

Also we see the effect of the Greeks and Romans on the religions in this part of the world. Some examples of Hellenistic religious ideas merged with foreign religious ideas include:

• Eleusinian & Dionysian mysteries (Phoenecian religion from west. Syria)
• Attis and Cybele mysteries (Phrygean religion from northern Turkey)
• mysteries of Jupiter Dolichenus (Anatolian religion from western Turkey)
• mysteries of Mythras (Persian religion from Iran)
• Isis & Osiris mysteries (Egyptian religion)
• Christ mystery (Jewish religion from Israel & Palestine)

We have evidence of dying & rising gods that offer eternal salvation that predate Christianity: Romulus, a Roman state god whose death & resurrection were celebrated in annual plays. Osiris, an Egyptian god who offers salvation in afterlife to those baptised into his death and resurrection. Zalmoxis, a Thracian god whose death & resurrection assures followers eternal life. The idea that Jesus, whose stories and claims mirror these, is the really real deal is simply extraordinary. This requires extraordinary evidence. Thus far, none has been uncovered, not even ordinary. In my opinion, Jesus is simply the character unique to the Jewish/Hellenistic religious stories and moral tales. In any case, I know a lot of non-believers think he's a wonderful role model, a kind of moral hero. I think that argument is accepted only because it is tradition, and it is not an opinion I share. 

 

I obviously don't know if the man really existed or not, although for whatever reason I do believe he did.  I've never questioned that too much because it simply isn't all that important to me.

 

All of the legends that pre-date Jesus, but make essentially the exact same claims as those attributed to him, were sort of the proverbial nails in the coffin (cross?) of my waning Catholic belief system.  The more I studied, the more I realized that not only were the stories of the Bible inconsistent and implausible, they weren't even original.  That was it for me.

 

 

[livetoread]

I too haven't investigated enough to form an opinion on historical Jesus. As a figure, I like some of what he said, but I don't think he was the essence of goodness like many believers do, let alone divine. He was a bit too into hellfire for my tastes, especially in Matthew, though I generally like where his ire was directed.

 

I don't think what he said was nearly as unique, radical, or special as many do, though I do think some of what he said was good and important.

[Joanne]

I defer to the historical consensus which at this point is that the likelihood of a historical Jesus is pretty small.  There is some disagreement on the matter, but until there's a wider gap, I'm content to be remain agnostic on the matter.

 

In the end, though, whether or not the historical Jesus existed is really a non-issue for me.  My disbelief does not hinge on the existence of Jesus as I think Christianity is just as unlikely if Jesus did exist as if he didn't.  If there was a historical Jesus, then he was as a person and not a godman who performed miracles and rose from the dead.  The analogy with Paul Bunyan is pretty apt, I think.

 

For me, Socrates is another apt comparison. He "existed" in the minds of collective men if not in reality. He had much wisdom attributed to him, and the ideas have merit, regardless of historical actuality.

 

Actual, documented persons over time have (to me) similar level of insight and wisdom without the legend and embellishment.

 

I consider the "stories" of Christian scripture just that - stories. I also believe that for ancient people they were known to be *stories* and not intended to be literal. To me, there is no difference in validity between Aesop's Fables, Romulus and Remus, Mithra and the Christian stories. They all use stories and literature to embody some basic, utilitarian life truths.

[mamaraby]

For me, Socrates is another apt comparison. He "existed" in the minds of collective men if not in reality. He had much wisdom attributed to him, and the ideas have merit, regardless of historical actuality.

Which is similar, I think to what many Buddhists say about the Buddha.  In the end it doesn't really matter whether or not the Buddha lived, he still existed in his ideas and they still believe it a path worth following.  In a way I think that belief creates the person irrespective of the historicity of their claims.

 

I also experienced something similar as AlmiraGulch - for all my belief in the exclusivity of Christianity, the amount of apologetics I ingested, and my Bible degree actual comparative religion is what sealed the deal for me.  I just disbelieve in one more god than I did before.

[albeto.]

For me, Socrates is another apt comparison. 

 

What?!? Socrates never existed? 

 

But, but, but...

 

We have proof!

[Joanne]

What?!? Socrates never existed? 

 

But, but, but...

 

We have proof!

 

Well then. I dub you the quintessential Socrates Realist Apologist.

 

Your crown is made of hemlock. ;)

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Well then. I dub you the quintessential Socrates Realist Apologist.

 

Your crown is made of hemlock. ;)

 

:smilielol5:

[mama27]

Ok, another question on this apparently year old thread (that I just discovered last night).

 

How many of you are atheists directly because of how Christians have behaved, things they've said or done, that started you questioning, or things they said or did that caused you to no longer believe?

 

Obviously if you never believed or doubted for other reasons this doesn't apply to you but I am curious because I know Christians have caused people (including myself), to stop going to church, or a specific church, and this thread made me wonder how many have fallen away from God Himself because of other people.

[HRAAB]

Ok, another question on this apparently year old thread (that I just discovered last night).

 

How many of you are atheists directly because of how Christians have behaved, things they've said or done, that started you questioning, or things they said or did that caused you to no longer believe?

 

Obviously if you never believed or doubted for other reasons this doesn't apply to you but I am curious because I know Christians have caused people (including myself), to stop going to church, or a specific church, and this thread made me wonder how many have fallen away from God Himself because of other people.

 

I won't deny that the behavior of some Christians left me with a very bad taste, but that is not the main reason I left.  I left because I do not believe the doctrine - from original sin to the resurrection - I don't literally believe it.  If I had believed, I don't think the behavior of some Christians would have driven me away.  After all, there are nasty people in all religions and non-religions.  There are loud mouthed, pushy atheists.  I tend to think it more a personality; the irritating Christian that is constantly shoving their religion down your throat would be an equally irritating atheist constantly pushing the views in your face.

 

I will say, I have witnessed Christian behavior that does absolutely nothing towards getting people to view Christianity favorably.  Honestly, I've seen more in the last couple decades than the rest of my years in Christianity.  That does coincide with the time I've been homeschooling, but I won't say it is absolutely related to homeschooling.  Fortunately I also know many wonderful Christian people.

[Χά�ων]

Ok, another question on this apparently year old thread (that I just discovered last night).

 

How many of you are atheists directly because of how Christians have behaved, things they've said or done, that started you questioning, or things they said or did that caused you to no longer believe?

 

Obviously if you never believed or doubted for other reasons this doesn't apply to you but I am curious because I know Christians have caused people (including myself), to stop going to church, or a specific church, and this thread made me wonder how many have fallen away from God Himself because of other people.

I never believed in the Christian God or the teachings. When I was 12 I read the bible and found it to be lacking. When I was 19 I went and studied more indepth at a seminary school near where I live. I read what others said about scripture and then I read it myself. What I read did not align with what I was told it meant. The more I learned and the more I studied the more I became convinced that it was not what is claimed. I tried to believe but to be honest nothing convinced me that there was anything to believe in.

[AlmiraGulch]

Ok, another question on this apparently year old thread (that I just discovered last night).

 

How many of you are atheists directly because of how Christians have behaved, things they've said or done, that started you questioning, or things they said or did that caused you to no longer believe?

 

Obviously if you never believed or doubted for other reasons this doesn't apply to you but I am curious because I know Christians have caused people (including myself), to stop going to church, or a specific church, and this thread made me wonder how many have fallen away from God Himself because of other people.

 

I've certainly been turned off by the behavior of some Christians, but, like Ishki, I'm put off by the behavior of a lot of people, both religious and non.  

 

I don't believe because....well....I don't believe.  No one else's behavior can change that for me.  

[mamaraby]

I've certainly been turned off by the behavior of some Christians, but, like Ishki, I'm put off by the behavior of a lot of people, both religious and non.

 

I don't believe because....well....I don't believe. No one else's behavior can change that for me.

Pretty much this. It might push one in the direction of leaving if you were already considering it. It's definitely not enough to keep one away if they still believe. I think those folks would still call themselves "spiritual, but not religious" or even Christian without a church. It probably wouldn't be enough to keep someone gone.

 

I've been fairly disgusted with the behavior and rank misogyny in the atheist community the past coulle of years, but that didn't make me stop being an atheist and start believing in god(s).

[albeto.]

Ok, another question on this apparently year old thread (that I just discovered last night).

Some topics never go out of style. ^_^

 

How many of you are atheists directly because of how Christians have behaved, things they've said or done, that started you questioning, or things they said or did that caused you to no longer believe?

 

Obviously if you never believed or doubted for other reasons this doesn't apply to you but I am curious because I know Christians have caused people (including myself), to stop going to church, or a specific church, and this thread made me wonder how many have fallen away from God Himself because of other people.

 

In a way, I stayed in my faith longer because of dear friends of mine who were so supportive of my questions, my confusion, my increasing doubts. Most of the homeschoolers I knew were religious, and not lightly so, and they were some of the kindest, most considerate people I could interact with. There were some people on another homeschool forum who were increasingly frustrated with these same questions and confusions and increasing doubts, and I think they got a bit... snappy, but it wasn't them or that kind of behavior that influenced me, it was the fact that they were getting frustrated because they couldn't answer these simple questions without appealing to faith. It wasn't their behavior in a bad sense, because I get frustration, but their behavior insofar as a lack of offering reliable answers. The "no true scotsman" fallacy started glaring at me from everyone I talked to. Each person was sure their own special insight given by the holy ghost personally himself was the really right insight, and yet it would differ from someone else who was just as absolutely sure of the same exact thing. Unpleasant, or problematic behavior rationalized by religious arguments became uncomfortably obvious.

 

So no, I don't think it was any one thing any one person did, but the kind of general defense behaviors seen in general did suggest to me there was something going on. It was like everyone was behaving in a way to protect their beliefs, and I felt like the kid who started talking about the Emperor not having any clothes. It wasn't like the hushing me offended me, as the fact that people were hushing me made me wonder. If that makes sense. The behavior that inspired my skepticism wasn't rude things like refusing to leave a tip after dinner, it was telling me the Emperor has such lovely clothes, if only I could stop making it so complicated, trust, and believe, then I would see them, too. 

[Laura Cook]

My question is off topic from what is being discussed right now, but I'll ask anyway! I would consider myself agnostic, sliding towards atheist. I'm still working things out for myself. Just to give you an idea of where I'm at. My husband is atheist.

How do you, as an atheist or during your journey to it, handle questions that your children have about gods and religion? One of my sons asked me a couple weeks ago if God was real. The question was unexpected and I wasn't prepared with any sort of answer. I ended up telling him that I didn't know, that I was still trying to figure it out for myself and that someday he could decide for himself. He sat there for a bit and then said that he didn't think God was real, that it didn't make sense to him.

[AlmiraGulch]

I've told my kids that there is no evidence that there are any gods at all. Not the god of Christianity, or Hinduism, or Islam, or the ancients like Zeus or Thor.

 

I told them I used to believe, that I no longer do, and that they will have to determine for themselves what they believe. One of my children is atheist. One currently identifies as Pagan, but she explores lots of things. I think that's great.

[mamaraby]

How do you, as an atheist or during your journey to it, handle questions that your children have about gods and religion? One of my sons asked me a couple weeks ago if God was real. The question was unexpected and I wasn't prepared with any sort of answer. I ended up telling him that I didn't know, that I was still trying to figure it out for myself and that someday he could decide for himself. He sat there for a bit and then said that he didn't think God was real, that it didn't make sense to him.

Dh and I both consider ourselves atheist. We usually answer those sorts of questions by saying what I believe (that there are no gods), but that it's ok if they believe different. We usually list the people we know who believe in god(s) in that same conversation. Turning the question back around to "what do you believe" also makes for interesting conversation.

 

There's nothing wrong with "I don't know." I think it's good for kids to see that adults don't always know the answers and that there's no shame in not knowing.

[HRAAB]

When they ask, I answer honestly from my perspective.  My older two know I don't believe.  Neither of them attend church.  To some extent, they believe in a Something, but not the Christian God.  My middle dd is somewhat active in her church, but is searching.  She and I have some awesome conversations.  She does not feel constrained by doctrine and most of her beliefs are outside traditional Christianity, but she is comfortable with her church group for now.  However, it's not all been easy for her.  She's had to deal with some nasty anti-gay attitudes and other things.  At least she talks openly and honestly with me.  She's figuring it out, and I'm so glad she trusts me enough to share her journey with me.  I don't see her giving up on God, but I don't see her staying with religion.  But who knows.  My younger two attend church with their dad.  They're 13 and already displaying some real skepticism.  Sometimes they will ask questions about something the Bible says, and I always counter with 'what do you think'.  They usually say they don't believe whatever it might be.  So far, they haven't questioned God to me.  I do think one of them has some doubts about God though.  My dh attends church, not so much because he believes it all, but because it's what he's always done and he's not willing to toss it all out.  He's not really religious.  He says he believes in a God - not the Biblical one - but one that makes sense to him.  Religiously he's not much of a Christian - more spiritual, earth centered.

 

I'm the odd one in the family

[Lady Florida.]

Ok, another question on this apparently year old thread (that I just discovered last night).

 

How many of you are atheists directly because of how Christians have behaved, things they've said or done, that started you questioning, or things they said or did that caused you to no longer believe?

 

Obviously if you never believed or doubted for other reasons this doesn't apply to you but I am curious because I know Christians have caused people (including myself), to stop going to church, or a specific church, and this thread made me wonder how many have fallen away from God Himself because of other people.

 

Well I'll be the exception. The behavior of other Christians didn't cause me to stop believing, but I can't say it didn't play a part in my beginning to question. Here's what happened,

 

I've mentioned before that I never met a creationist until we started homeschooling. Actually, I never heard of creationism. When I met these people I started looking at creationism. For a while I tried to make myself believe it but I just couldn't. That had me wondering about my own beliefs. Why did I think their beliefs were silly but my own were not? I needed to answer that question for my peace of mind.

 

One of the moms in our homeschool group told my six year old he was going to go to hell because he watched a Harry Potter movie. He was terrified, and I had to tell him that lady was wrong and she shouldn't have said that to him. This same group required a SoF that acknowledges creationism and that the bible is inerrant. I couldn't do it. So yeah, it left me with a very bad taste.

 

 

Second, the political climate in the U.S. at the time (early 2000's) was the beginning of creationist or conservative Christian politicians becoming more visible. Without turning this into a political discussion, I'll just say I was always a liberal Christian first as a Catholic, then a United Methodist. So my politics always leaned left (my family could be considered "Kennedy Catholics"). That had me questioning why my supposed fellow Christians were being so publicly hateful so often.

 

The above was just one area that led me to start questioning. I was also attending bible study and reading the bible all the way through for the first time in my life. Prior to that I was the poster child for "Catholics don't read the bible." As I began reading it and learning things I was never taught, I started scratching my head at why anyone would believe it.

 

i guess my final answer is, some Christians had a role to play in my journey to atheism, but they weren't solely responsible.

[Lady Florida.]

 

How do you, as an atheist or during your journey to it, handle questions that your children have about gods and religion? 

 

Coincidentally, my son was questioning his beliefs around the same time I was. I didn't know that until he asked me one day if God was real. I told him no one really knows and that everyone has to come to their own conclusion. He eventually decided he's also an atheist.

[Mom-ninja.]

The behavior of Christians did not lead me to become atheist. However, I was plenty disgusted (and still am) with the amount of hypocrisy I see.

 

I just don't carry the faith gene I guess. I wanted to believe in God and especially heaven. It seems a comforting thought. However, I finally had to admit that religion is a human construct.

[Mom-ninja.]

As for my kids when they asked I honestly told them that I do not believe in any form of supernatural beings. There is no evidence that one or more exist. I told them that there are many people who do believe in a deity or deities. Then I explained why humans invented religion and what makes humans believe in the supernatural. I've told them they are welcome to explore and learn about religion, but I want them to understand the way the human brain works and why humans are drawn to religion.

 

 

[kubiac]

in re Jesus

 

* Don't know that Atheists have a consensus. We are very poorly organized, you know. :)

 

* I personally think Jesus was a historical guy. My personal interest in him is my belief that he was prototypically charismatic; I think he had that special extroversional "it" factor that draws people in and causes followers to want to follow. In fact, he was so charismatic that his followers founded a religion in his honor.

 

I think he was a non-magical guy with relatively excellent personal principles who wanted to change the world and in many ways succeeded. I don't think he was resurrected by his father the god. I think it's perfectly possible that crucifixion is an inefficient killing method and that you could put leave a crucified body in a cave for three days and the person could linger and have a few last words for you before they finally died from a massive blood infection.

 

(Note: I have always felt like Joseph must have been the dupe of all time until I realized that the story of the Virgin Birth was ginned up after the fact and tacked on to the life of Jesus Christ. In science-fiction fandom, there's a term "retcon" --> retroactive continuity, i.e. when writers go back and add some scenes that connect/explain to previously disconnected story points.)

 

Note: I feel bad answering this question with my true opinion because I realize how personally meaningful Jesus Christ is to many. Know that I respect the faith and the love of Christians, even if I do not share the beliefs they hold.

[Onceuponatime]

I would like to think that if Jesus really did exist, he was just a kind of enlightened guru for universal love, peace, and global brotherhood. That's the kind of thinking I was exposed to in the 70's. Something happened when we hit the 80's.

 

I personally believe each of the gospels was written from the authors' personal agendas and philosophies in an attempt to prop up Pauline Christianity.

[kubiac]

How do you, as an atheist or during your journey to it, handle questions that your children have about gods and religion?

 

This is SOOOO hard for me. I don't even know where to begin explaining religion and gods to my kid(s). I feel like I want to give all belief systems "equal time" (like how political views are supposed to get equal time on American television) but I don't even know how to "correctly" characterize religion much less explain the beliefs of every major world religion.

 

I feel like my skepticism must be transparent when I haltingly explain, "Well, some people believe in something called god, who is, well...they think..."

 

WHAT DO THEY THINK!? I don't even know where to start. Is it a he or a she or just a vague cloud thing? Does it have powers? What are those powers? How does it manifest? What is its purpose?

 

Maybe there's a wikipedia article I can read... 

[Mom in High Heels]

in re Jesus

 

* Don't know that Atheists have a consensus. We are very poorly organized, you know. :)

 

* I personally think Jesus was a historical guy. My personal interest in him is my belief that he was prototypically charismatic; I think he had that magical extroversional "it" factor that draws people in and causes followers to want to follow. In fact, he was so charismatic that his followers founded a religion in his honor.

 

I think he was a non-magical guy with relatively excellent personal principles who wanted to change the world and in many ways succeeded. I don't think he was resurrected by his father the god. I think it's perfectly possible that crucifixion is an inefficient killing method and that you could put leave a crucified body in a cave for three days and the person could linger and have a few last words for you before they finally died from a massive blood infection.

 

(Note: I have always felt like Joseph must have been the dupe of all time until I realized that the story of the Virgin Birth was ginned up after the fact and tacked on to the life of Jesus Christ. In science-fiction fandom, there's a term "retcon" --> retroactive continuity, i.e. when writers go back and add some scenes that connect/explain to previously disconnected story points.)

 

Note: I feel bad answering this question with my true opinion because I realize how personally meaningful Jesus Christ is to many. Know that I respect the faith and the love of Christians, even if I do not share the beliefs they hold.

 

This was very well said.  Don't feel bad for expressing yourself.  You haven't bashed Christianity or Jesus or believers.  I think you were very respectful.  FWIW, I agree with pretty much everything you wrote.

[Rosie_0801]

How many of you are atheists directly because of how Christians have behaved, things they've said or done, that started you questioning, or things they said or did that caused you to no longer believe?

 

Not me, unless you count Jesus. I was taught Jesus was perfect, yet I knew if I behaved like Jesus did at times, I'd be in a whole lot of trouble from my mum! :p

 

How do you, as an atheist or during your journey to it, handle questions that your children have about gods and religion?

 

Most of what my daughter knows about religion comes from me. It's an important topic at our house, though all religions do not get equal time. My dd is young, so mainly she is learning to classify people. This is mostly because her father's girlfriend and her daughter are church goers and I refused to permit dd to be educated as a Christian when neither of her parents are. So there's a lot of commentary about how Girlfriend and her daughter are Christian, Nanna is Christian, Grandma is Christian, and which churches they go to.  Zainab is Muslim, etc. Those terms don't mean anything much to her at the moment. Muslim means Zainab wears a hijab, or in the case of her children, they're Muslim because their mum wears a hijab. :) Christian means going to church, which is a nice place to do colouring in. (Her father took her to church once and left her in the Sunday School.) I am working on a more sophisticated understanding, but these things take time, lol. I tell her that some people think gods are true and other people think they are just stories. Her current plan is to be Christian when she grows up so she can go to church with Girlfriend and Daughter, lol. I have impressed upon her that she needs to learn a lot about religion and gods while she's a kid so she can make a good choice when she's grown up, and thus far she's fine with that.

[mamaraby]

This is SOOOO hard for me. I don't even know where to begin explaining religion and gods to my kid(s). I feel like I want to give all belief systems "equal time" (like how political views are supposed to get equal time on American television) but I don't even know how to "correctly" characterize religion much less explain the beliefs of every major world religion.

 

I feel like my skepticism must be transparent when I haltingly explain, "Well, some people believe in something called god, who is, well...they think..."

 

WHAT DO THEY THINK!? I don't even know where to start. Is it a he or a she or just a vague cloud thing? Does it have powers? What are those powers? How does it manifest? What is its purpose?

 

Maybe there's a wikipedia article I can read...

How old are your kids? Between us godless types we can probably come up with at least a couple of books to help. I used the Usborne Encyclopedia of Word Religions with ds this year (he's 9), but I think it could work as a read aloud, particularly if you already use and like the Usborne encyclopedia for history. Depending on age there may be more helpful options.

[unsinkable]

in re Jesus

 

* Don't know that Atheists have a consensus. We are very poorly organized, you know. :)

 

* I personally think Jesus was a historical guy. My personal interest in him is my belief that he was prototypically charismatic; I think he had that magical extroversional "it" factor that draws people in and causes followers to want to follow. In fact, he was so charismatic that his followers founded a religion in his honor.

 

I think he was a non-magical guy with relatively excellent personal principles who wanted to change the world and in many ways succeeded. I don't think he was resurrected by his father the god. I think it's perfectly possible that crucifixion is an inefficient killing method and that you could put leave a crucified body in a cave for three days and the person could linger and have a few last words for you before they finally died from a massive blood infection.

 

(Note: I have always felt like Joseph must have been the dupe of all time until I realized that the story of the Virgin Birth was ginned up after the fact and tacked on to the life of Jesus Christ. In science-fiction fandom, there's a term "retcon" --> retroactive continuity, i.e. when writers go back and add some scenes that connect/explain to previously disconnected story points.)

 

Note: I feel bad answering this question with my true opinion because I realize how personally meaningful Jesus Christ is to many. Know that I respect the faith and the love of Christians, even if I do not share the beliefs they hold.

Jesus (according to the Biblical accounts) was on earth for 40 days after he rose the dead.

 

I get that you don't believe it but Jesus didn't "linger and have a few last words." He made many appearances to his disciples and friends after He left the tomb.

 

Edited to add...and LDS church believes that Jesus came to America and preached to people here after the resurrection.

[Ipsey]

Ok, another question on this apparently year old thread (that I just discovered last night).

 

How many of you are atheists directly because of how Christians have behaved, things they've said or done, that started you questioning, or things they said or did that caused you to no longer believe?

 

Obviously if you never believed or doubted for other reasons this doesn't apply to you but I am curious because I know Christians have caused people (including myself), to stop going to church, or a specific church, and this thread made me wonder how many have fallen away from God Himself because of other people.

 

I was an Evangelical for 20 years, and most of the Christians I knew were wonderful people, though a few were bad apples, for sure.  I didn't fall away from God because of people.

 

As my children got to be 6 and 7 and were old enough to start questioning the things they heard in church--will my friends go to Hell if they don't believe in God? Did Adam and Eve really live with dinosaurs? etc. I really had to determine what I believed, and if the Bible was true, I'd double-down, and if it weren't I owed it to them to tell them that.

 

When my 7-year-old was reading the Bible and asked if a woman had to marry a man who raped her that was a big moment. (Yes, she was reading the Old Testament. We had given her a children's version for Easter, and she was doggedly making her way through.)  

 

It wasn't people at all, it was a serious look at what I had accepted and believed for years and a soul-searching to whether they were the truth and where I could/should teach these things to my children.

 

Now, I did have to be very careful of my interactions with my community (all Christians at that time) when we stopped going to church and believing, but no one drove me out.

 

ETA: And when my kids are questions about religious issues, I say, "Some Christians believe. . . " "Some Muslims believe. . . "etc.  As to what I believe, I tell them I don't believe any religious claims. My oldest is an atheist. My 11-year-old may be some sort of deist, he struggles with this when he says the Boy Scout oath he tells me. My youngest two don't question or ask yet. They don't have any memory of our church-going, Sunday-School teaching, AWANA-leader days. :)

[Mom in High Heels]

How old are your kids? Between us godless types we can probably come up with at least a couple of books to help. I used the Usborne Encyclopedia of Word Religions with ds this year (he's 9), but I think it could work as a read aloud, particularly if you already use and like the Usborne encyclopedia for history. Depending on age there may be more helpful options.

 

The Usborne World Religions book is what we used too.  It's a really good book, though I don't recall it discussing Pagan beliefs.  I could be wrong on that, as it's been quite a while since we read it.  Still, it's an interesting read and gives kids a good idea of what different religions look like.

[Onceuponatime]

I used the Usborne Book of World Religions with my 9yo this year too. :coolgleamA:

 

For my 15yo, I used World Religions: A Voyage of Discovery, published by Saint Mary's Press. I believe it is intended for Catholic schools but I found it comprehensive and amazingly unbiased. It tends to go in a mostly chronological fashion

 

The chapters are: Studying the World's Religions, Primal Religious Traditions, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, Confucianism, Taoism, Zen Buddhism, Shinto, Ancestors of the West (Greeks, Romans, Persians), Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Religion in the Modern World.

[MistyMountain]

Ok, another question on this apparently year old thread (that I just discovered last night).

 

How many of you are atheists directly because of how Christians have behaved, things they've said or done, that started you questioning, or things they said or did that caused you to no longer believe?

 

Obviously if you never believed or doubted for other reasons this doesn't apply to you but I am curious because I know Christians have caused people (including myself), to stop going to church, or a specific church, and this thread made me wonder how many have fallen away from God Himself because of other people.

I was an agnostic from birth pretty much. I grew up as a Catholic. My parents took me to church every week and I went to preschool programs and then CCD. I always wondered what if God isn't real but I was scared because the biggest sin was not believing. I pretty much always didn't relate to the bible stories as is and would space out completely in CCD. I started noticing hypocrisy and the behavior of some believers pretty early too but it has absolutely no bearing once so ever on me being an atheist. I become one as a teen. It started with a deep conversation with a friends which made me realize that I was scared of what knew was true because of the fear that if you had it wrong you are doomed to hell. I never wavered since. I just know and the facts and logic support it. My non belief has nothing to do with anything that happen in church.

[MistyMountain]

I'm curious. Were you always there? Or did you believe at one point and then quit believing slowly? Or was it a clean, quick break?

 

I just wonder because when I look at the scale I think "Oh, just admit it, say you're a 7 (or 6.99999) and get over it." Maybe it's not been long enough for me to shake off almost 20+ years of serious trying to believe, but I can't quite bring myself to go that far. In a way, I think it would be a huge relief.

 

I'm as curious about what leads former religious people to atheism as I am about atheists who become believers.

I am always curious about this too and even religious people who have always been religious. It hard for me to understand total belief without ever having any skepticism or doubts.

[HelenNotOfTroy]

Ok, another question on this apparently year old thread (that I just discovered last night).

 

How many of you are atheists directly because of how Christians have behaved, things they've said or done, that started you questioning, or things they said or did that caused you to no longer believe?

 

Obviously if you never believed or doubted for other reasons this doesn't apply to you but I am curious because I know Christians have caused people (including myself), to stop going to church, or a specific church, and this thread made me wonder how many have fallen away from God Himself because of other people.

 

My husband has been influenced by things that so-called Christians say and do, both in becoming atheist and in remaining atheist. Those are not the only factors in his change in beliefs.

[Laura Corin]

I have a question. I recently saw this lecture by an atheist bloke who wrote several books about atheism. He said he was annoyed that people said "well, that will be the thinnest book in the world then" when he was preparing to write the first. Apparently atheism is about more than not believing in a creator. That was new to me. I don't think atheism is about anything else than not believing in God. Am I wrong?

 

I think it depends on how into it you are!  As shown by this thread, there are lots of interesting aspects to not believing.  My version of the book would indeed be slim as I don't think about my atheism very much and it has very few ramifications: I never believed; I don't believe.

 

L

[Rosie_0801]

There's Alain de Botton's book, 'Religion for Atheists.' I haven't read the book, but have heard the podcast. As we've heard in this thread, there are lots of reasons why unbelievers want to believe, so there are those problems to be addressed. You need ritual but Church ritual doesn't do it for you? What kind of ritual do you need then? Are you weak for needing ritual or is that a normal sort of human thing that everyone indulges in, even if they don't think of it that way?

So a theology book about atheism would be slim, a philosophical book about it needn't be.

[Laura Corin]

Oh, a lot of theistic people believe their moral values come directly from God. Where do atheists think their moral values came from?

 

I think that many societies follow the Golden Rule, and it weaves through many religions.  That's more or less it for my own moral values.  I don't feel the need for much else.  

 

The Golden Rule is fun to follow - it makes me feel good - and it's also an effective social lubricant (which, I think, is the reason for its ubiquity).

 

L