DianeW88 Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 I was at the nurse's office by 1:07. The first call to the house was 12:50 and I returned the call by 1pm. Even if I'd never shown up she could have been kept DD in the nurse's office until 2:25 which is when dismissal is. DH does not want to talk to an attorney about this. The EMS guys said they "had" to take her in because it was a suicide threat. I was so shocked I didn't start asking questions about my rights until about three hours into the ordeal. The doctors were vague about what exactly my rights were and said CPS would be called if we refused to have her talk to the psych unit dr. She was questioned for about 5 minutes without me in the room, the rest of the time DH or I were with her. I have no real issue with her talking about this with a psychiatrist, I just didn't want it to be in this context of being hauled there by NYPD! DD is very slight at 50 lbs and was cooperative, but crying, the whole time. The EMS guy was correct. The school is acting "in locos parentis" and has the right to act in behalf of your dd as they see fit. They are mandatory reporters and your dd made a suicide threat. They are legally required to act on that...whether or not you give your consent is a moot point. The EMS guys are also required to bring her in for evaluation. She made a threat and that changed the whole ballgame. And yes, they can call CPS on you if you refuse treatment or evaluation for her. You may, in fact, still receive a follow up call from them if anyone in the ER notified them in the course of filling out their paperwork. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty ethel rackham Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Are you saying that she obviously was not a threat to herself after saying" I am going to kill myself", that this is just something kids say to get attention? If so, maybe next time people will not react as strongly. Well what if next time she really does intend to act on those feelings?!? I would much rather have school officials take my dd seriously each and every time, than to let her slip through the cracks just once. I guess that's why the reference to the boy who cried wolf. The more often someone asks for help (and a suicide threat is the ultimate cry for help), peoples reactions tend to lessen over time. It is a sad situation all around, but I honestly do not see how the schools reaction over a suicide threat is grounds for suing someone over. The bullying case is an entirely different problem. No, that is not what I am saying. I think you need to take it seriously when someone says something like that, even if they don't plan to do something. However, to say it was crying wolf is cruel and minimizes the pain in that poor girl. I can't tell you how many times I thought those same words, just didn't utter them out loud. That didn't mean I was necessarily a suicide risk at that time, but I was in serious need of help ... help that didn't come until I had to drop out of college due to depression - again suicidal thoughts without plan. Most people who have suicidal thoughts do not get to the point of making a plan, let alone acting on it. Yes, there are people who do, which is why many protocols call for involving the police. But, the fact that she is having thoughts means she needs help, not crying wolf and she is NOT a criminal. She is not in the wrong here any more than someone having any other medical or psychological crisis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spryte Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 :grouphug: What a terrible situation for your DD. I'm so sorry she's in such pain as a result. The school's handling of the bullying is unacceptable. I hope you'll pursue every avenue available to make sure that they don't let another situation reach the point it reached with your DD. And I do think they failed to provide your DD a safe environment, and should refund part of your tuition, as another poster pointed out. Their actions were clearly not adequate to the level of bullying. A police report, an attorney, whatever you can do to get this message across. Obviously, your first priority is your own kiddos, but your actions here may well save another child's life, as the bullies will likely move on to another target. How horrifically sad. The suicide comment... I have mixed feelings on that. I understand that your daughter feels upset by what happened after she said those words, but goodness, those are serious words. The nurse can't possibly have known what might happen next, or what your DD would do. She was calm, but that doesn't mean she would not have acted on her words, and in fact, I think that calmness would be disconcerting. I am coming at this from the perspective of someone who has seen a teen make good on those threats - more than once, and personally - every comment to that effect would be taken seriously - very seriously. There is no backtracking and saying, "I didn't mean it, it was a joke, it wasn't serious." Did you know that most failed attempts are followed up by statements like that? And a good number of those people go on to make successful attempts later. I'm not saying that your daughter meant her comment, but I am saying that if I heard a child make that statement - I'd act as though she did mean it, as doing otherwise could have terribly sad results. What if your daughter had followed up on that statement? And the nurse had not acted? I understand your feelings about your DD seeing the psych ward. I've seen it, as a result of the teen I mentioned above. It was a horrible sight. I hated leaving him there, in that place, but there was no choice for us, at that point. I am grateful that your DD did not have to stay there! Maybe, at this point, some counseling for your DD - to deal with the repercussions of bullying and what happened, not necessarily the suicide comment - would be good? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 It's all so sad. So sorry you're going through this, OP. I don't think the school was out of line regarding the suicide comment, but I do think they messed up in handling the bullying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 The suicide threat stands alone. It is not appropriate to filter your response to the thread through the bullying component of your dd's history. If a human being threatens to take their own life, people must act to protect that life. The nurse was within her professional limits and protocol to call emergency personnel. Suicide threats must be taken seriously, and responded to consistently. You can not depend on individuals to assess the nuance and context of the threat. I think your reaction to the nurse, the EMS, and the situation is born of your frustration and fear and anger about your dd's situation, but that it is misapplied. This is NOT a situation in which an attorney should be called. Your dd is able to understand, if explained properly, why the community helpers were called. She needs a mental health professional, not an attorney. No human should feel the way she feels and especially not a young girl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 I think your reaction to the nurse, the EMS, and the situation is born of your frustration and fear and anger about your dd's situation, but that it is misapplied. This is NOT a situation in which an attorney should be called. Your dd is able to understand, if explained properly, why the community helpers were called. She needs a mental health professional, not an attorney. No human should feel the way she feels and especially not a young girl. I think how this affects her in the long run is going to hinge to some degree on your reactions now. Helping her to see that she is in a safe calm environment will do a lot towards making anything she felt or saw yesterday lose it's power over her. I think that counseling - perhaps family counseling at first since you all were affected by this - would be a helpful thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockey Mom Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 I am so angry at the school. Bullying at any school is terrible, but I think it is even worse when it is a religious school. It is tantamount to spiritual abuse. Here she is in a school where they are supposed to be learning about the love of God and where the teachers and authority figures are supposed to be examples of these ideals. Yet the inaction of the teachers and the principal have basically given tacit approval to the actions of the bullies. In that poor girl's eyes, she can see it as her deserving what comes to her, that God really doesn't love her. I can just feel her powerlessness. This is what I learned experiencing the same thing. Knowing that nobody ever suffered consequences for behavior so very un-Christ-like really warped my faith and my relationship with God. I really didn't recover from that until my 40's. :iagree: Which is why I believe an attorney should be involved for the bullying. In MY experience with both public and private Christians schools, the private school was FAR worse with taking our bullying complaints seriously. Why? Because the bullies pay tuition too. And they don't want to lose those dollars. Perhaps the threat of an attorney will make them see a little more clearly. ETA: Not to mention the medical costs involved as a result of their failure to provide a safe environment for your child. The school should have to pay for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbara H Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 I'm saddened that your daughter was in such a difficult situation and experienced this trauma. No kid should be bullied or be where they are unsafe. My advice would be right now to focus as much of your energy right now as possible on helping her heal. Just being out of the school is helpful, but trauma has a way of lasting in the human body and mind so I would not assume just being out of the school is enough. I encourage you to find her the best counseling you can and focus on ways to help her through this difficult time. Of course, you need to process your upset and anger about the situation at the school - but that needs to be far away from your daughter's experience right now. So, I would strongly urge friends and family not to let her overhear a lot of talk about anger toward the school, talks of lawyers, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanne115 Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 I am so sorry for what you and your daughter are going through. It sounds like the bullying should have been dealt with a long time ago. Suzanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 In MY experience with both public and private Christians schools, the private school was FAR worse with taking our bullying complaints seriously. Why? Because the bullies pay tuition too. And they don't want to lose those dollars. Perhaps the threat of an attorney will make them see a little more clearly. ETA: Not to mention the medical costs involved as a result of their failure to provide a safe environment for your child. The school should have to pay for it. My experience with public and private schools is the same. Private schools seem to be 30 years behind in how to handle bullies, but the bullies have all the experience of now so it's a bigger problem that the schools are not handling. If I were in this situation once I got the ball rolling on getting help for dd I'd 1. start evaluating if my older dc should stay at the school. I realize you have to balance the last few months of the last year, but it's also a family issue. 2. contact local legal resources about taking action against the teacher, school AND DIOCESE. 3. if this were my parish school and I still wanted to be Catholic, I'd be looking for another parish to attend, so that none of my dc had to be around these kids during church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellydon Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Agreeing with Joanne. The school's response was on target as was the EMS response. When someone states that they are going to kill themselves, especially a child/teen, then they get evaluated. It sounds like the school did not handle the bullying at all. I would address the bullying and the fact that the school did not get it under control, but not the response to the suicide threat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
celticmom Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 3. if this were my parish school and I still wanted to be Catholic, I'd be looking for another parish to attend, so that none of my dc had to be around these kids during church. Why on earth would a person want to change religion? And it has been my experience that families generally sit together at church. There is no need to run away and change churches. Take the high road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrn Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 :grouphug: :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PinkyandtheBrains. Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Suicide attempts should always be taken seriously. In my county there is a crisis team that can be called instead of 911. If the crisis team was not available, 911 would be called. It is scary, but suicide threats should never be treated lightly. Ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Why on earth would a person want to change religion? And it has been my experience that families generally sit together at church. There is no need to run away and change churches. Take the high road. I'm not there. I can imagine bullying situations, which if handled badly by church leaders would make me seriously question the teachings of my church. I didn't say what is happening here goes to that depth. It is just something I would evaluate. My first priority is my child's recovery. If attending church with the bullies is going to make my child feel unsafe or at least constantly reminded, then recovery will be difficult. I think if the church environment makes a child feel unsafe, then church attendance is not spiritually helpful. So, that is why I suggest that if the family attends church with these children, they may want to consider how that will affect the child who needs help. ETA: I don't believe taking the high road means forcing the child to continue to have to interact bullies even if once a week at church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 I'm sorry that this was so traumatic for your dd, and I think the school was in the wrong for letting the bullying get so bad, but, honestly, once your daughter made a suicide threat, the ball started rolling in a procedural way. If a child made such a threat and everyone blew it off and the child did kill herself, everyone would be livid as well. We can't really have it both ways. Procedures are set for situations and need to be followed. Your dd learned a tough lesson. Tara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 The nurse followed her requirements under the law. The principal would not have been able to help or stop the matter. Medical personnel in our state must Baker Act (72 hour hold) anyone who says he wants to harm himself. There is no provision for figuring out if the person really meant it or not. The law is the law here in our state. Only a psychiatrist or medical physician can undo a Baker Act here. The good thing out of all of this is your DD has learned a valuable lesson long before it would affect the rest of her life. The EMS guy was correct. The school is acting "in locos parentis" and has the right to act in behalf of your dd as they see fit. They are mandatory reporters and your dd made a suicide threat. They are legally required to act on that...whether or not you give your consent is a moot point. The EMS guys are also required to bring her in for evaluation. She made a threat and that changed the whole ballgame. And yes, they can call CPS on you if you refuse treatment or evaluation for her. You may, in fact, still receive a follow up call from them if anyone in the ER notified them in the course of filling out their paperwork. The suicide threat stands alone. It is not appropriate to filter your response to the thread through the bullying component of your dd's history. If a human being threatens to take their own life, people must act to protect that life. The nurse was within her professional limits and protocol to call emergency personnel. Suicide threats must be taken seriously, and responded to consistently. You can not depend on individuals to assess the nuance and context of the threat. I think your reaction to the nurse, the EMS, and the situation is born of your frustration and fear and anger about your dd's situation, but that it is misapplied. This is NOT a situation in which an attorney should be called. Your dd is able to understand, if explained properly, why the community helpers were called. She needs a mental health professional, not an attorney. No human should feel the way she feels and especially not a young girl. I completely agree with all of these. I was institutionalized in the children's ward of a mental hospital as a teenager for a non-serious suicide threat made in an emotional moment. I learned never to say that again. Another (completely normal but bratty) girl in there with me had been overheard in a laundromat saying to her mother that if she didn't get her way, she was going to drink bleach. Someone called 911. Police and EMS were called, she was taken away. Her mother tried to refuse to have her hospitalized, CPS got involved, and a judge ruled against the mother. After my experience (I was 17 and finished with high school, on my way to college), I did a lot of research into the issue of children and mental hospitals. When laws were changed to make it harder to hospitalize mentally ill adults against their will, they were made easier for children. You have very few, if any, rights when it comes to your child's mental health if something like suicide is mentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocelotmom Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 I agree that the response was not inappropriate. There's leeway if someone expresses feeling suicidal, but not so much if they make a direct threat, even if it isn't specific. But I'm sorry for all that she's been through, and I hope things improve now that she's out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danestress Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 A lot of the information being given out here seems suspect to me. The duty of a nurse to report, of a medic to transport with or without permission, and of a school to prevent bullying are state law issues. Don't take what you are told here as the law. If you want to see an attorney, do so. I wouldn't, but at least you can find out what laws govern these issues in *your* state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DianeW88 Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 You have very few, if any, rights when it comes to your child's mental health if something like suicide is mentioned. Yes. And I honestly think you may not be off the hook yet. I truly would expect a phone call or visit from CPS regarding this, especially if the police were involved. Depending on the state you are in, they may be required to file a report with CPS, as is the hospital. If I were you, I would already have therapy or a pediatrician's visit scheduled for her. If you don't look like YOU are taking this seriously...they will take it out of your hands, and possibly remove your child from your home for a time. Not trying to frighten you, but this is not the time to get confrontational with the school or the doctors. It can go very, very wrong, very, very quickly. If you still feel you want to pursue the bullying issue with the school after some time has passed, that is one thing, but do not get all worked up about them calling the police or taking your child in. They are required by law to do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koerarmoca Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 After having two teen suicides in our family/extended family I take any threat seriously. It was horrific my nephew killed him self over bullying about being a virgin (he was 15) this was about 11 years ago and just a few months ago a dear friend of the family who we considered to be our surrogate nephew killed himself (he was 16) and we have NO IDEA why he did it. He showed no outward sings of depression, had a great home life, and was well liked among his peers. My sisters BFF killed herself at school in the early 90's and about 13 years ago my bbf's dad killed him self... So yeah I think any threat should be taken very seriously and while I'm sure it was an idol threat from your dd due to extreme duress. I think the nurse was correct for seeking help for her. I'm so sorry your dd had to deal with this. I would seek therapy for your dd if your not already just so she can talk out the issues with an outside party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest submarines Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Yes. And I honestly think you may not be off the hook yet. I truly would expect a phone call or visit from CPS regarding this, especially if the police were involved. Depending on the state you are in, they may be required to file a report with CPS, as is the hospital. If I were you, I would already have therapy or a pediatrician's visit scheduled for her. If you don't look like YOU are taking this seriously...they will take it out of your hands, and possibly remove your child from your home for a time. Not trying to frighten you, but this is not the time to get confrontational with the school or the doctors. It can go very, very wrong, very, very quickly. If you still feel you want to pursue the bullying issue with the school after some time has passed, that is one thing, but do not get all worked up about them calling the police or taking your child in. They are required by law to do that. This is a good point. The moment this machinery starts rolling, you have to roll with it. In your circumstances, knowing my child, I wouldn't take those words as a suicide threat (but rather an expression of anguish), but I'd worry that this is not something that can be understood by the "machinery". There isn't common sense left anymore. No one things. Everyone "follows protocols." I agree with Diane--make the appointments. Go with their flow for a while. I'm so angry at your DD's school right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommy22alyns Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Oh my gosh, your poor DD! :grouphug: The school vastly overreacted and just made things worse for her. I don't have any advice, but good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starr Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Pay attention to the professionals, Dianne and Joanne. We have a friend in a private catholic school that the same thing happened to. His family got him into counseling right away but did have to speak with CPS. While you might feel this was poorly handled your dd could still use some help dealing with the bullying and the resulting issues. We found sessions with a counselor re a bullying situation very helpful. And it would show your are taking this seriously at the same time. Praying for your family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Given how many young teens have committed suicide over the last few years, I'd be more upset if the school didn't do anything. A school nurse shouldn't be the one to make the call on whether a suicide threat is "serious" or not. Whoever was talking about lawsuits over the EMTs being called, well, that is utterly ridiculous. I don't know why in the world someone would ever want to take legal action that would result in a school taking suicide threats less seriously, or being afraid to call for medical help. Can you imagine? "We're so sorry about the loss of your son/daughter, but it's our policy not to call 911 in cases like this for liability reasons..." Good lord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoobie Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 I wouldn't call an attorney because of the nurse et al's response to your daughter's suicide threat, but you may want to call one about the school's lack of response to the bullying that led to the threat. It could help you provide her with necessary counseling, and forcing the school to change its attitude on bullying could help other children. Please find someone for her to talk to about the situation. It sounds horribly traumatic. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mytwomonkeys Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 i am so very sorry that happened :grouphug: whether it was necessary for the school to call 911 or not, i feel they handled it poorly doing it so publicly for all to gawk at. how awful for your poor daughter. i'm so glad you have her home now. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMV Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 Suicidal thoughts need to be taken seriously (and sadly often are not). I can't fault how the school handled things yesterday and I would encourage you to not dismiss this as something she just said because she was upset. I presume they gave you some referrals from the psych ED, please follow through with those. ***I think I missed your earlier post or posts about the bullying incidents so I'm not excusing the school if they didn't handle that well. However, I think the most important thing now is to focus on helping your your daughter heal and I'm concerned that pursuing legal action against the school on this front may interfere with that. I do understand that we have to stand up and correct injustices so that those who come after us will have something better. I would strongly support you to pursuing this matter after your daughter is in a better place for that reason. Best wishes to your daughter and your family!*** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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