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school out of line? (re: DD)


butterflymommy
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I think the nurse over reacted. I don't know the authority level for whom to file a complaint with - but find out and do so. It would have been far more appropriate for the nurse to bring her to the office and be able to speak with her in private. she could have made sure someone was there until you were contacted. if you were at the school when she was taken away to the ER - you might have legal recourse and you could also file a complaint with the police dept. Just help her understand she's not in trouble - and she's no longer in the school with the bullies. though it might also be helpful for her to have some counseling to deal with the emotional fall-out of the bullying. martial arts is also supposed to be very good at developing the self-confidence that's a turn-off for bullies.

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No advice here either, but probably the school nurse was following protocol and had her hands tied. Should she have tried a little harder to get a hold of you and the principal - yes.

 

I would put in a formal complaint with EMS - even someone who is suicidal has a right to refuse treatment or to seek treatment elsewhere. You as parent did not give consent, so they were majorly in the wrong. You could sue over this, if you wanted to, for mental anguish on account of your dd. Were you allowed to be with your dd during the time in the Psych ward?

 

I would complain to the school board, if there is one. Or the diocese department of catholic schools. I would also point out that if the school had properly handled the bullying problem this never would have happened. I'd be tempted to ask for at least a partial refund of tutition paid for the kids you withdrew, since the reason you withdrew was a lack of the school to provide a safe instructional environment which is a form of breach of contract.

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Um, wow, I don't have any advice, but hugs for you. I can't believe the nurse only tried to call you once, it seems like she could have removed DD to the nurses office, stayed with her and let her calm down a bit, at least for an hour or so, and reassessed.

 

 

I was at the nurse's office by 1:07. The first call to the house was 12:50 and I returned the call by 1pm. Even if I'd never shown up she could have been kept DD in the nurse's office until 2:25 which is when dismissal is.

 

DH does not want to talk to an attorney about this. The EMS guys said they "had" to take her in because it was a suicide threat. I was so shocked I didn't start asking questions about my rights until about three hours into the ordeal. The doctors were vague about what exactly my rights were and said CPS would be called if we refused to have her talk to the psych unit dr. She was questioned for about 5 minutes without me in the room, the rest of the time DH or I were with her. I have no real issue with her talking about this with a psychiatrist, I just didn't want it to be in this context of being hauled there by NYPD!

 

DD is very slight at 50 lbs and was cooperative, but crying, the whole time.

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I hate this for your DD, my six year old weighs 58 pounds and I can't imagine how small he would seem being escorted by police and EMS :(. I would definitely document the experience in writing and send copies to the headmaster, principal, nurse, teacher, and school board. It think this would give them a chance to really absorb how traumatic it was. Then I would ask for a meeting with the principal to discuss it. I taught at two private schools and if you really wanted to get something done, you brought it to the attention of the board, they oversaw all administration. I wouldn't suggest this for most issues, but obviously there needs to be a policy review of the appropriateness of calling the police/EMS.

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No advice here either, but probably the school nurse was following protocol and had her hands tied. Should she have tried a little harder to get a hold of you and the principal - yes.

 

 

I suspect this too. I'm guessing everyone was following some line of protocol that once it started rolling, couldn't stop. The nurse could have had more patience, but I'm guessing she panicked too and doesn't know your dd as well as you do. When my son went to school, we had to sign a release form to allow for treatment if we were unable to be contacted, so I'm not sure how far you'd get if you.

 

The other thing is, I do think it's important for kids to know if they talk in this manner, it should and will be taken extremely seriously. Yes, that was an over the top response by the school. But I would want my child to understand what a big deal talking like that is and that people were extremely worried about her. An 11 year old is on the verge of adolescence, and not a 4 year old having a tantrum. I would make sure my child understood that and she was not in trouble at all. I can only imagine what it would be like to be responsible for someone else's child that is saying she wants to kill herself. That's an extremely hard circumstance.

 

I would certainly follow up with a with the school (and preferably the board) about the bullying and the protocol, and how poorly it was handled. Did they try multiple phone numbers for you? Did they have a cell number? I would check on EMS and see what your rights were on terminating the transport. I suspect they were following some protocol too, but maybe you have some backlash with them.

 

I'm sorry! Honestly, my horrible elementary school experience was at a Catholic school. I think private schools can be great if you fit into their box. My Catholic school was more clique based and had more bullies by far than any other school I've seen since (my oldest did go to school for 2 years, and we looked a many, many other school options).

 

I hope your daughter is able to heal now that she is home. :grouphug:

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Let's say the nurse talked to her and decided she was fine. Let's say she came home that afternoon and tried to kill herself. You would be upset then too. I understand your anger I would be too but they have to take every threat as real because you never know. My daughters friend just went through quite a bit with something along these lines. He had posted on facebook about doing it. Someone reported it to the school they called his parents. His parents decided he was fine because he told them it was all a joke etc. Two days later they found him on the floor. He was at hospital for six weeks convinced everyone that things were fine. The night he was discharged they found him in his room with cut wrists. You never know and you don't want to be the adult who ignored a cry for help. The school would be blamed then too.

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I don't think you are over reacting. I think the school over reacted! But these days it seems there are standard protocols for everything and no room for any leeway, and I imagine that is why the nurse called ems, the police came, etc. It's like the kid getting expelled for bringing a butter knife to school to spread peanut butter- no one can make a judgement call anymore, they are all just following protocol.

 

Your poor baby. My 11 year old would have a straight up panic attack at that, so would I probably.

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If they are that intense, why not call the police on the bully? Or do they only react to victims? If your child was that tormented, I would be tempted to call the police myself, if the bullying had any physical aspects. I really hate bullying.

 

:iagree:

What about the bullies? What is happening to them? They should be hauled in for harrassment! What is the school doing about it?

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I am so sorry your daughter went through this, it breaks my heart to add this event on top of the bullying already experienced.

 

I think the nurse overreacted and this is coming from a parent that has been contacted many times by the school for self-injury and suicide concerns, etc. And I'm fairly sure my DD gave far more worrisome signs than just the tears and frustration (to be fair, probably never said anything outright though). But still, having a well trained crisis counselor at her school has been very helpful because they always speak to me and take time with dd to talk with her, assess real current risk and also get in touch with me to discuss risk and next actions. I can't imagine them ever making that call without more specific information and certainly not without talking to me too, mainly because they would rather release her into my care for me to make that decision. And also, in my book, it's not a 911 call if the child is not actively doing something at that moment. Sitting in the nurses office or counselors office until reaching mom (making 1 call and not waiting for a response is absurd to me) and going from there would be the correct action to take, imo.

 

On the same note, I think that many school officials don't know what to do or are trying to have blanket policies to 'protect' children that totally miss the mark on helping them instead. Perhaps that was the case here, but I'd still be very upset - very! That is not an experience I would want to add to my daughter's life, certainly not with the school as her audience either, terribly unfair and inconsiderate.

 

It sounds to me that taking her out was probably a good step. I hate bullying with such passion and get very riled up about it since my child faces it as well and hate feeling so powerless in ways I can help.

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First, let me saw I would pulling my kids out of school, but not because I felt the school overreacted.

 

Second, the nurse was probably following protocol and yes, in 10 minutes, getting help could mean the world of difference. Where we used to live there was a nice Catholic school down the street. One day I heard sirens and more sirens, come to find out a 13 year old had killed himself in the classroom. I know details that I wish I didn't and can imagine the other students in the class and teacher will need counseling for a long, long time. I'm sure that teacher would like 30 seconds back, much less 10 minutes.

 

I would also be glad that the nurse didn't try to gauge my dd's level of threat. Even if she wasn't serious, each threat must be taken that way. In some states a threat reported would get your 72 hours in the hospital under suicide watch. I don't know how that plays out with minors, but if I were a nurse I would want a professional evaluation of the threat. Some parents would swiftly kick any threat under the rug and then something like the above happens. You may be fortunate you go to take her home last night. There have been too many reports of bullied kids taking their own lives.

 

How would I talk to my child if this happened? Police and EMS are there to insure your safety. This is not embarrassing, that is their job. You made a threat. It is not their job to gauge your sincerity of such a threat. Yes, people who have mental issues sometimes get strapped to gurneys or beds. They are restraints for their protection and the protection of the doctors and nurses treating them. They probably have people that love and care about them too, they want them safe. All this would be said with lots of hugs, tears, and probably ice cream.

 

I would follow up with the school on the bullying incident that precipitated the tears and threat. I would not blame the nurse, she was doing her job and I think she made the right call. Minutes can count and, again, it's not her job to determine if your dd was serious or not.

 

:grouphug: :grouphug:

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I am sorry your daughter is so traumatized but I think the school nurse acted appropriately. She doesn't know your daughter and I think all suicide threats should be taken seriously. If the nurse hadn't acted and something happened later, not only would the school have liability issues, but if I were the nurse, I know it would be devastating. Also, the EMS was not wrong that they are required to transport in these circumstances. Even if it were not a threat she planned to follow through on, it was a definite call for help and I would be thankful that someone was listening to my child.

 

As for the bullying that caused the situation to escalate to this level, you can bet that someone at that school and in the archdiocese above would be getting an earful. The fact that the school did nothing to protect my child when they knew bullying was occurring would not unnoticed.

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Another vote that the nurse probably had her hands tied in the matter, especially if the principal was not in the building. Also, it's important for teens to realize that if they speak powerful words, people will take them seriously - that can be both good and bad. I understand the psych hospital visit wasn't pleasant, it's not pleasant for the others who are there as well.

 

Your anger should be directed towards the school that didn't address the bullying situation properly. The girls that drove your dd to this point should be ashamed of themselves and if I were the principal there, I would be livid that any child felt distressed to the point that your child did. I would absolutely request tuition reimbursement and complain (about the bullying) to whatever board governs the school.

 

I'm so sorry your daughter is upset. I hope you both are better soon. There's no pain like seeing our child in pain.

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Let's say the nurse talked to her and decided she was fine. Let's say she came home that afternoon and tried to kill herself. You would be upset then too. I understand your anger I would be too but they have to take every threat as real because you never know. My daughters friend just went through quite a bit with something along these lines. He had posted on facebook about doing it. Someone reported it to the school they called his parents. His parents decided he was fine because he told them it was all a joke etc. Two days later they found him on the floor. He was at hospital for six weeks convinced everyone that things were fine. The night he was discharged they found him in his room with cut wrists. You never know and you don't want to be the adult who ignored a cry for help. The school would be blamed then too.

 

 

I agree with the above. I really wouldn't want a school nurse, EMS, or police to determine if my child was actually suicidal or not. I think the appropriate actions were taken. However, I would be very concerned that there was nothing done at all about the bullies. I would be very upset that dd was being bullied so much that she even said those words, whether it was a cry for help or just a frustrated girl saying something emotional. That something hadn't been done about the bullying would be what made me pull my children out.

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I think the nurse acted appropriately.

 

I think the EMS folks should gotten you to sign something that you weren't going to have her transported against medical advice and left it at that.

 

I think your daughter will think twice about making empty suicide threats in the future.

 

But the good thing to come out of this is that your daughter is now out of a toxic environment.

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Do schools not have guidance counselors anymore? Wouldn't crying in the private guidance counselor's office be the normal thing to happen? While waiting for mom to come? How on earth could she kill herself while sitting with the nurse or guidance counselor, waiting for mom?

 

And there is a difference between an active suicide threat and a young girl crying, saying, "I just want to die, I'm so embarrassed!" or some such thing. A difference should be made.

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What a terrifying day for your dd. Hopefully she realizes that her words are powerful. It may be a good time to share the "The boy who cried wolf."

Just like it is not OK to yell "help" at the pool, if you verbalize any type of suicide threat (regardless of your true intention) you will be taken seriously. No ifs or buts about it.

Although it may have been handled differently if the principal was there, it sounds like the school was following protocol. I would be shaken up by the whole ordeal, but would be glad to know that the school does take threats seriously.

 

Hopefully a new day brings clarity to a very serious situation.

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Do schools not have guidance counselors anymore? Wouldn't crying in the private guidance counselor's office be the normal thing to happen? While waiting for mom to come? How on earth could she kill herself while sitting with the nurse or guidance counselor, waiting for mom?

 

And there is a difference between an active suicide threat and a young girl crying, saying, "I just want to die, I'm so embarrassed!" or some such thing. A difference should be made.

 

 

It is a private school. They have different rules. Some do not have guidance counselors and some only have part time and such.

 

Best advice I have ever received for bullying was that if a school is not taking it seriously, file a police report about it.

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Do schools not have guidance counselors anymore? Wouldn't crying in the private guidance counselor's office be the normal thing to happen? While waiting for mom to come? How on earth could she kill herself while sitting with the nurse or guidance counselor, waiting for mom?

 

And there is a difference between an active suicide threat and a young girl crying, saying, "I just want to die, I'm so embarrassed!" or some such thing. A difference should be made.

 

Well, the thing is this was a private school, so there may just not have been the resource to have someone supervise her non-stop for unlimited amounts of time. I personally would be afraid to turn my back on a child talking like this who seemed really distressed.

 

I totally agree that bullying is what you should get after the school for. That is intolerable and I'd be really interested to know the circumstances.

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Do schools not have guidance counselors anymore? Wouldn't crying in the private guidance counselor's office be the normal thing to happen? While waiting for mom to come? How on earth could she kill herself while sitting with the nurse or guidance counselor, waiting for mom?

 

And there is a difference between an active suicide threat and a young girl crying, saying, "I just want to die, I'm so embarrassed!" or some such thing. A difference should be made.

 

Even if there were a guidance counselor, they are typically busy. In the situation described in the OP's post, a guidance counselor would clear her schedule to help the child, but they would also make sure the child wasn't in their office in the future making similar statements. The guidance counselor would be perfect to discuss bullying, but once it hits a certain stage, they contact someone else.

 

Rape? Contact police.

Parental abuse? Contact social worker.

Wanting to kill someone (including themselves)? Police.

 

There are things they are qualified to do and things they aren't. My mother is a middle school guidance counselor and she was told that it wasn't her place to determine if a child is telling the truth or not - she's to pass it off to a pre-determined person who is qualified.

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1. The nurse was probably following protocol.

2. The school has completely mishandled the bullying.

 

Did you sign medical release/consent forms when you enrolled? I know most schools require it. They will be covered against legal action if you did.

 

I would contact an attorney to deal with the bullying. The school obviously isn't willing to work on it, so force them to!

 

:grouphug: for your DD.

:grouphug: for you.

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I agree that the girl should have been allowed to sit quietly in the nurse's office, or in the principal's office. The OP said she was calm and controlled. The school nurse completely overreacted.

 

I would be even more nervous about a calm person issuing the statement made by the OP's daughter.

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1. The nurse was probably following protocol.

2. The school has completely mishandled the bullying.

 

Did you sign medical release/consent forms when you enrolled? I know most schools require it. They will be covered against legal action if you did.

 

I would contact an attorney to deal with the bullying. The school obviously isn't willing to work on it, so force them to!

 

:grouphug: for your DD.

:grouphug: for you.

 

 

I agree with this. I will focus on the school mishandle the bullying too. It is very seriious especially your DD make the threat.

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The nurse followed her requirements under the law. The principal would not have been able to help or stop the matter. Medical personnel in our state must Baker Act (72 hour hold) anyone who says he wants to harm himself. There is no provision for figuring out if the person really meant it or not. The law is the law here in our state. Only a psychiatrist or medical physician can undo a Baker Act here. The good thing out of all of this is your DD has learned a valuable lesson long before it would affect the rest of her life.

 

But my question is why is she allowed to continue in an environment with bullying? I realize the parent didn't know how bad it is, but I am so glad the parents have now withdrawn their children from this school. It is sad to think things had to get this bad before the parents were fully informed of the extent of the bullying.

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So what would have happened if they had been able to contact you? Is the protocol to contact EMS/police for every suicide threat? If the nurse had tried to contact mom or dad one more time, she would have gotten them, so was she still have contacted the police? If the policy is for the parent to make the decision, the nurse was trigger happy, if she was going to call no matter what, then she acted within reason. Is the policy wait a certain amount of time for the parent to respond, or call immediately if she can't reach someone? I would say that the board needs to review the policy, because it does not allow for common sense on the part of the nurse. I realize that suicide threats are serious, but if you have an 11 year old being terrorized, someone needed to step back and look at the situation as a whole. Do you know who the bully is? I would be contacting the parent directly and letting them know what happened. The school probably cannot give their name for privacy reasons, but your dd can certainly tell you. If my child was terrorizing someone, I would want to know to step in and deal with the behavior/heart issue.

 

She could have stayed with the child in the office or hallway for more than 10 minutes (which is how long it took OP to return the.call), so unless the child grabbed a pair of scissors and tried to cut her wrists in front of the nurse, she would have been safe. That's another problem, why was all this going down in front of classrooms rather an in the front office or nurses office? I have taught in four schools (2 private and 2 public) and I have never seen classrooms that close to the office.

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You're not overreacting. They underreact to the bullying that your daughter has been dealing with every. single. day. and have her hauled off for a psych eval when she says she can't take it anymore? I wouldn't have expected that kind of a reaction from a school whose MO is doing nothing.

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I think you overreacted. What if the nurse didn't take it seriously and she had harmed herself? You stated that she said she was "going to". As a school nurse, I probably would have consulted with colleagues before calling 911, but she did try to call you. A lot of school nursing is based on judgement calls (or maybe it was the school's protocol), BUT the ultimate goal was your daughter's safety. The nurse has no control over what she witnessed at the hospital. If I were in the school nurse position, I'd be furious if someone sued me over that. It may have not even been a licensed nurse anyway, it could have been a health associate following a protocol.

 

That said, I think you do have a right to be upset with the bullying issue.

 

ETA: I don't mean to sound harsh at all and the positive is that you have them at home with you again.

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I just meant that she wouldn't have been likely to run out the door into traffic, or jump out a window in a fit of hysteria. She would almost certainly have stayed well-behaved while in the presence of a protecting adult.

 

The story I referenced happened while the child was in the presence of an adult. The child was quicker than the unsuspecting adult, a horror she will have to live with for the rest of her life.

 

Unless her dd was searched there really was no way to tell if she had something as simple as a razor blade in her pocket. Stuff like that does happens, that's why protocol is in place. The right course of action is determined BEFORE an incident takes place, it allows people in authority to follow the rules already set in place so they don't have to make life or death decisions in the heat of the emotion.

 

A suicide threat is just that, a suicide threat. I personally would be ticked if the nurse took it upon herself to gauge the sincerity of my child's verbal threat without contacting the authorities.

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As well, it would be hard for any adult in the school to be completely responsible for only one child unless they were assigned to that child. Other emergencies may come up with other children. If I had a child in crisis in front of me, and responsibility for any other child that may come into my office, my job is to make sure the child is safe as quickly as possible. If a child is brought in having seizures, bleeding, anaphylactic reactions, etc - the nurse would have to make a decision as to which child needed her full attention.

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Elegantlion said it very well, and how I would also view the situation. Before I worked in the ED, I had an unrealistic view of the police. I would avoid the uniform as if I were worried that I would be arrested for nothing. I think it comes from how we depict and explain them to our children sometimes. If we give our children the view that police arrest bad people and criminals only, then every interaction with them results in fear and emotionally- charged reactions.

 

When there is little interaction with police, sometimes we forget that they are everyday people committed to our safety. It would be beneficial to nurture a healthy respect for our police, so that we are relieved when they arrive, not fearful. The police I have met have the patience of saints and take a lot of abuse without responding in kind.

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I feel so sorry for your dd. :grouphug: As a mom, I'm sure my momma-bear would spring to life in this situation too. That said, I'm also sure the nurse was following procedures and protocol.

 

I hope your dd and family find some peace with this. Is there a possibility of her talking to a counselor? He or she may be able to help all of you deal with what happened that day as well as the bullying that led up to it.

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I don't think anyone overreacted from the suicide threat. Real or not, it was made and protocols are in place for that sort of thing. You'd be singing a different tune if no one took her seriously and she eventually carried out the threat. Honestly with all your dd has been through at school re bullying I'd be surprised if she didn't need to talk with at least a counselor.

 

 

The school did not handle the bully problem. If I were to talk to an attorney about anything it would be about the bullying.

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I read this thread before I went out for my walk with the dog and have been stewing about it ever since. Your poor daughter. Her ordeal with the bullies has brought up some very painful memories. I was her.

 

If the protocol was to call the police even if they did get a hold of you, then I could understand their actions. However, to have her hauled away in front of the classroom is over the top and cruel, giving credence to the idea that there is something wrong with her, not the bullies. However, I can't believe they didn't try to get a hold of you more than once. For crying out loud, you could have been in the bathroom, or couldn't have gotten your phone out of your purse fast enough.

 

I am really bothered by the previous posters who basically treated the poor girl as someone "crying wolf." Even though she may not have meant actually to kill herself, she definitely was in dire straits and needed help right then and there. "Crying wolf" is playing a joke at someone else's expense. This was NO JOKE. I look at this similar to someone who is getting raped crying "FIRE" knowing that no one will get involved if she cries "RAPE." To make it sound like she did something wrong here is like pouring salt on the wound. She now knows the power of those words, but she was desperate because up to then, nothing was being done to help her and she needed to take desperate action. What else was she supposed to do?

 

I am so angry at the school. Bullying at any school is terrible, but I think it is even worse when it is a religious school. It is tantamount to spiritual abuse. Here she is in a school where they are supposed to be learning about the love of God and where the teachers and authority figures are supposed to be examples of these ideals. Yet the inaction of the teachers and the principal have basically given tacit approval to the actions of the bullies. In that poor girl's eyes, she can see it as her deserving what comes to her, that God really doesn't love her. I can just feel her powerlessness. This is what I learned experiencing the same thing. Knowing that nobody ever suffered consequences for behavior so very un-Christ-like really warped my faith and my relationship with God. I really didn't recover from that until my 40's.

 

OP, I think you need to bring up the seriousness with the teacher, the nurse, the principal, the school board, the diocese and whatever priest/pastor is overseeing the school. Even if the nurse was following school policy, the fact that they let things get this far is unconscionable. Make sure you document what you have attempted to do and what their responses were. Heads need to roll on this one.

 

I am so relieved that your children are out of that toxic environment. They are an embarrassment to the Catholic Church. Hug your children and consider getting help for your daughter, not just for the trauma of being taken away in such a humiliating manner, but for the damage of all that abuse over time. She may not show outward signs, but those wounds and scars are there.

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It is sad the school did not take the bullying seriously as they took your daughter's words said in a moment of utter frustration. When the 911 was called, I wish the officers had made a small detour and visited the girls that did the bullying.

 

I don't know whether protocol was followed or not. I think how the school handled themselves in the events leading up to this event is shameful.

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I am really bothered by the previous posters who basically treated the poor girl as someone "crying wolf." Even though she may not have meant actually to kill herself, she definitely was in dire straits and needed help right then and there. "Crying wolf" is playing a joke at someone else's expense. This was NO JOKE. I look at this similar to someone who is getting raped crying "FIRE" knowing that no one will get involved if she cries "RAPE." To make it sound like she did something wrong here is like pouring salt on the wound. She now knows the power of those words, but she was desperate because up to then, nothing was being done to help her and she needed to take desperate action. What else was she supposed to do?

 

 

 

Are you saying that she obviously was not a threat to herself after saying" I am going to kill myself", that this is just something kids say to get attention? If so, maybe next time people will not react as strongly. Well what if next time she really does intend to act on those feelings?!? I would much rather have school officials take my dd seriously each and every time, than to let her slip through the cracks just once. I guess that's why the reference to the boy who cried wolf. The more often someone asks for help (and a suicide threat is the ultimate cry for help), peoples reactions tend to lessen over time.

It is a sad situation all around, but I honestly do not see how the schools reaction over a suicide threat is grounds for suing someone over. The bullying case is an entirely different problem.

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