Do homeschooled teens become drug/alcohol addicted?

[garddwr]

What? Why? Without Lot's daughters getting dad drunk to the point he put 'his seed in the them', the bible says there would be no life. Call it rape, call it incest, call it a message from gd. No matter, it took a lot of alcohol.

 

Are you arguing with the bible?

 

If so, come on and join us in a certain social thread.

 

 

I see you've edited since I originally quoted this post.

 

Um, sounds like you're not a Bible scholar. Lot's daughters meant that their father had taken them to a wilderness and wasn't going to arrange marriages for them. They wanted children. They found a way to have children. God didn't command it. There were plenty of other people having children (entire civilizations of people). You've taken a story out of context and misunderstood it.

 

As I like to tell my children, we all make mistakes; this is obviously not your area of expertise. Let's move on.

[LibraryLover]

Your point is just that the use of wine occurs in the Bible then? I'm not trying to argue with you or anything, I just couldn't make heads or tails of your post. You used an obscure story without particular doctrinal content and seemed to be interpreting it strangely (we wouldn't be here if not for Lot's inebriation???)

 

Thanks for clarifying.

 

 

 

Yes, wine is a biblical standard. (Not sure the particular number limits. In reality, a donkey only goes as fast as it wants,no matter rider blood alcohol levels.)

 

As for the bold. I'm not Divine. (Well. Sometimes I am, according to dh,) I just quoted; I can't take credit for that. Personally, I wouldn't have gone in that direction.

[I.Dup.]

What? Why? Without Lot's daughters getting dad drunk to the point he put 'his seed in the them', the bible says there would be no life. Call it rape, call it incest, call it a message from gd. No matter, it took a lot of alcohol.

 

Are you arguing with the bible?

 

If so, come on and join us in a certain social thread.

 

 

WTH?? :huh:

[LibraryLover]

 

WTH?? :huh:

 

 

 

Am I the the author of the bible? Am I my violated sister's keeper?

[LibraryLover]

I see you've edited since I originally quoted this post.

 

 

 

 

 

lol I first posted a simple "Why?" You can check that. I then added, since you asked. I changed nothing. :)

 

I didn't realize the story of Lot and his daughters was something not commonly known. I get it's a tough pill to swallow.

 

Genesis 19:30-36

 

Lot and His Daughters

 

³⁰ Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. ³¹ One day the older daughter said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is no man around here to give us children—as is the custom all over the earth. ³² Let’s get our father to drink wine and then sleep with him and preserve our family line through our father.â€

³³ That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and slept with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

³⁴ The next day the older daughter said to the younger, “Last night I slept with my father. Let’s get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and sleep with him so we can preserve our family line through our father.†³⁵ So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went in and slept with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

³⁶ So both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant by their father.

[garddwr]

lol I first posted a simple "Why?" I then added, since you asked. I changed nothing. :)

 

I didn't realize the story of Lot and his daughters was something not commonly known.

 

 

Eh, wasn't condemning you for anything.

 

The story is known. Your interpretation is rather odd.

 

Editing to include the full account, from Genesis 19 (this is the NIV)

Lot and His Daughters

 

³⁰ Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. ³¹ One day the older daughter said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is no man around here to give us children—as is the custom all over the earth. ³² Let’s get our father to drink wine and then sleep with him and preserve our family line through our father.â€

³³ That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and slept with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

³⁴ The next day the older daughter said to the younger, “Last night I slept with my father. Let’s get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and sleep with him so we can preserve our family line through our father.†³⁵ So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went in and slept with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

³⁶ So both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant by their father. ³⁷ The older daughter had a son, and she named him Moab^[g]; he is the father of the Moabites of today. ³⁸ The younger daughter also had a son, and she named him Ben-Ammi^[h]; he is the father of the Ammonites^[i] of today.

 

 

I don't see what God has to do with the story, this is human beings exercising human will. And no, there is no claim that humanity would not exist if not for these actions.

 

Just research a bit more next time.

[LibraryLover]

Eh, wasn't condemning you for anything.

 

The story is known. Your interpretation is rather odd.

 

 

The story itself is rather...odd. To say the least.

[garddwr]

The story itself is rather...odd. And pretty sick.

 

 

Oh, I think any of us could agree to that!

[LucyStoner]

Just seems like a weird thing to insert into this particular discussion.

 

 

Well, to be fair, it was a very weird thing to read in the bible at all. And why I am quite sure the bible is not a book I want my kid reading unedited until he is much much older. I read the bible through when I was about ages 10-11 :scared: (and re-read most of the bible many times after that) and the story never gets less weird. The story of Lot and his daughters a weird story no matter where you read it. :)

[garddwr]

 

Well, to be fair, it was a very weird thing to read in the bible at all. The story of Lot and his daughters a weird story no matter where you read it. :)

 

 

Too true! That's one bit of the Old Testament I haven't read to my children quite yet. Definitely not G-rated...

[LibraryLover]

Well, to be fair, it was a very weird thing to read in the bible at all. The story of Lot and his daughters a weird story no matter where you read it. :)

 

 

 

There is a lot of...interesting...stuff..in the bible.

 

Ftr, I have had surgery and have had to have hardcore pain meds. I was not hs'd, and I have thrown bottles of nearly full pain meds in the trash after recovery. Recently , since we are moving, I did a sweep of drawers. I can't tell you how many Oxy tablets I had to dump. 4 people in my family have had teeth pulled in the past couple of years. What I tossed due to disinterest/non addiction was pretty massive.

[LibraryLover]

Lot and His Daughters

 

³⁰ Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. ³¹ One day the older daughter said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is no man around here to give us children—as is the custom all over the earth. ³² Let’s get our father to drink wine and then sleep with him and preserve our family line through our father.â€

³³ That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and slept with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

³⁴ The next day the older daughter said to the younger, “Last night I slept with my father. Let’s get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and sleep with him so we can preserve our family line through our father.†³⁵ So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went in and slept with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

³⁶ So both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant by their father. ³⁷ The older daughter had a son, and she named him Moab^[g]; he is the father of the Moabites of today. ³⁸ The younger daughter also had a son, and she named him Ben-Ammi^[h]; he is the father of the Ammonites^[i] of today.

 

 

I don't see what God has to do with the story, this is human beings exercising human will. And no, there is no claim that humanity would not exist if not for these actions.

 

Just research a bit more next time.

 

 

 

I simply quoted. No need to do further research at the moment. I didn't write it. (I see you added a couple of sentences at the end there...not sure why that makes it better, and not sure why my quote didn't have that.) Of course, the war stories of Ben- Ammi /then Benjamin and the Moabites are provocative & violent, and parts of the bible I'd also not read to little children. I know plenty about religious writings

 

.If I wrote this, I'd be at the top of the NYT Best Seller List, very wealthy, and you'd be seeing me interviewed on Good Morning America, CNN, Fox etc. TMZ would stalk me at the airport. I'd have my own Town Car to drive me hither and yon.

 

And where are you getting all this human will? A jealous God commanded the people do to his bidding to prove their devotion. If you believe in a literal bible, you know that many times god hardened hearts of the 'enemy' so that they could be killed. Even the pharaoh was done with Moses until pushed by god. "Yahweh made Pharaoh stubborn..."

[LucyStoner]

There is a lot of...interesting...stuff..in the bible.

 

Ftr, I have had surgery and have had to have hardcore pain meds. I was not hs'd, and I have thrown bottles of nearly full pain meds in the trash after recovery. Recently , since we are moving, I did a sweep of drawers. I can't tell you how many Oxy tablets I had to dump. 4 people in my family have had teeth pulled in the past couple of years. What I tossed due to disinterest/non addiction was pretty massive.

 

 

That's the same here. I have had 2 c-sections and a seriously massive tooth extraction (7 at once, 5 impacted/full bony extractions) and I never used the refills or even the whole bottle. I will use it to get to sleep at first so I can sleep off the pain but then, no matter how often I tell people to stay on top of their pain, I don't use most of my pills. It's not that I feel tempted to keep at it, but that I am blessed (cursed?) with a very high tolerance for pain and a very low tolerance for feeling woozy. I prefer pain to feeling sick to my stomach and dizzy. Narcs for me don't really take the physical pain away as much as they just make me feel like I don't care that I am in pain and that is not a feeling I like. Plus, the side effects of them are sometimes just way too annoying. Chasing pain meds with docusate and anti-nausea meds just seems... inefficient. At least for how they work for me.

[elegantlion]

I once thought life was all about the choices we make,

Then I lived, then I found other people.

 

I looked an addict in the eye. He said, I don't want to be excused from the consequences, but I didn't ask to be an addict.

 

I looked at the homeless man and wondered why he didn't work. I saw the lines in his face, aged before his time, the paths he had taken less fortunate than mine. I gave him money. Maybe he brought drugs, maybe he bought a meal.

 

Then I stood before a window and looked out. I saw a judgmental person with the ability to call anything she didn't like or understand a defect. I held out my arm hand up to stop them and realized I was looking in a mirror. I closed my eyes and looked again and saw myself bestowed with grace. As grace was given, I had to give it to make it, to continue to live.

 

I looked at all these people different than me. I looked at all their so-called character flaws. It was like the walkers on the Walking Dead, except as my vision cleared I saw they were not undead, they were alive. Just as Jesus' rising was celebrated this week, I saw the face of people and they were no longer marked by what I saw as their flaws. They were not covered with patches of black and white as before. The lines smeared and created grey.

 

Today I walk in this world with a bit more grace towards others. I don't know the paths they've walked, but I've borrowed shoes from them from time-to-time. My world is no longer flat, it is flying through space at some wicked scary speed. The best we can do is to quit taking pot shots at people who appear to us as walkers. It may make us feel safe, like life really isn't so horrid out there. Reality it, life is hard, consequences still happen. No one is excusing those. There but for the grace of God, go I. Walking shoes are available. Stay humble because you'll probably need another pair of shoes in your lifetime, you don't always get the ones you want.

[delaney]

 

Wow

KK is that WOW once again the non believing contingent get the bible thrown in their faces as hard cold fact with no recourse? Or WOW I need to run to the store to get more tinfoil? Either way you can't get fat by any other method than overeating. Science people. If you don't take in the calories your body cannot make more of you.

[Laura Corin]

 

Can somebody get addicted to drugs or alcohol become that way without first CHOOSING to consume those substances?

 

They made a poor decision and that chosen behavior interacted with their underlying biological predisposition to result in addiction. Do I feel sorry for the pain they are suffering as a result of their mistake? Sure, the same way I feel sorry for somebody who makes a mistake and winds up with an incurable STD or whatever. But it's still ultimately a character flaw rather than a disease that happened to them through no fault of their own.

 

Do you believe that drinking at all is a 'poor decision' 'a mistake' and evidence of a 'character flaw'?

 

Laura (a couple of gin and tonics a week)

[Joanne]

 

KK is that WOW once again the non believing contingent get the bible thrown in their faces as hard cold fact with no recourse? Or WOW I need to run to the store to get more tinfoil? Either way you can't get fat by any other method than overeating. Science people. If you don't take in the calories your body cannot make more of you.

 

Wow.

 

[Melissa in Australia]

I was so reluctant to reopen this thread as I was expecting it to be full of sad stories of druggie and drunk homeschooled children. What a relief to open it and find it is just the usual

[delaney]

Wow.

 

Sorry Joanne but it has become clear that throwing out scripture on this board is absolutely acceptable even if you are throwing it into the face of someone who puts no stock in it. Saying that the bible is a load of crap and made up of fictional fluff is not okay. I still get such a kick out of the holy that back their criticism and finger pointing with religious tone. Does this pagan's heart good to know what I truly walked away from.

[Lady Florida.]

KK is that WOW once again the non believing contingent get the bible thrown in their faces as hard cold fact with no recourse?

 

Sorry Joanne but it has become clear that throwing out scripture on this board is absolutely acceptable even if you are throwing it into the face of someone who puts no stock in it. Saying that the bible is a load of crap and made up of fictional fluff is not okay. I still get such a kick out of the holy that back their criticism and finger pointing with religious tone. Does this pagan's heart good to know what I truly walked away from.

 

 

Yep. Happens all the time. Non-believer says something against the belief (not even the believer, just the belief) and is admonished for being insulting. Sometimes non-believer gets a ban. Believer throws scripture at non-believer or says I'll pray for your soul or your children's soul, and nothing is said or done. Double standard.

[garddwr]

I simply quoted. No need to do further research at the moment. I didn't write it. (I see you added a couple of sentences at the end there...not sure why that makes it better, and not sure why my quote didn't have that.) Of course, the war stories of Ben- Ammi /then Benjamin and the Moabites are provocative & violent, and parts of the bible I'd also not read to little children. I know plenty about religious writings

 

.If I wrote this, I'd be at the top of the NYT Best Seller List, very wealthy, and you'd be seeing me interviewed on Good Morning America, CNN, Fox etc. TMZ would stalk me at the airport. I'd have my own Town Car to drive me hither and yon.

 

And where are you getting all this human will? A jealous God commanded the people do to his bidding to prove their devotion. If you believe in a literal bible, you know that many times god hardened hearts of the 'enemy' so that they could be killed. Even the pharaoh was done with Moses until pushed by god. "Yahweh made Pharaoh stubborn..."

 

Not sure whether this is worth responding to. You originally tried to make a point based based on your apparent belief that the story of Lot indicates the world would not be populated if not for alcohol-assisted incest between Lot and his daughters, and that this was either commanded or condoned by God. It is obvious you are not familiar with and did not take the time to study the context of that story or you would have realized that was preposterous. Lot's daughters were not the only women in the world at the time (nor Lot the only man). Humanity was not in danger of disappearing. Your point made no sense and still makes no sense. Arguing that the Bible condones inebriated incest because of the story of Lot is as nonsensical as claiming that it condones fratricide because it recounts the story of Cain and Abel.

 

Anyway, none of this has anything whatsoever to do with the question of whether or not homeschooled students are prone to substance abuse. Unless perhaps you have evidence that Lot was homeschooled? :D

[Joanne]

 

Sorry Joanne but it has become clear that throwing out scripture on this board is absolutely acceptable even if you are throwing it into the face of someone who puts no stock in it. Saying that the bible is a load of crap and made up of fictional fluff is not okay. I still get such a kick out of the holy that back their criticism and finger pointing with religious tone. Does this pagan's heart good to know what I truly walked away from.

 

 

Dude, I am on your side. I was just trying to be funny.

 

[mommymilkies]

KK is that WOW once again the non believing contingent get the bible thrown in their faces as hard cold fact with no recourse? Or WOW I need to run to the store to get more tinfoil? Either way you can't get fat by any other method than overeating. Science people. If you don't take in the calories your body cannot make more of you.

 

Not necessarily. Hypothyroidism can cause weight gain, even for people with a healthy diet. There are other metabolic disorders, too. And some studies show that too FEW calories can keep you from losing weight. And there's just the fact that some people are bigger. That's a great thing about nature. So much variety.

[I.Dup.]

I was so reluctant to reopen this thread as I was expecting it to be full of sad stories of druggie and drunk homeschooled children. What a relief to open it and find it is just the usual

 

This almost made me spit out my drink. :lol:

 

 

Yep. Happens all the time. Non-believer says something against the belief (not even the believer, just the belief) and is admonished for being insulting. Sometimes non-believer gets a ban. Believer throws scripture at non-believer or says I'll pray for your soul or your children's soul, and nothing is said or done. Double standard.

 

From what I know, people get banned for personal attacks. Calling names, insulting, etc. I was banned last week just for saying people lacked self control. Quoting Scripture or saying someone will pray for you, even if you hate that, is not a personal attack. :confused1:

[DianeW88]

I think we should try and get back to the OP's original argument....which is how to prevent TEENS from indulging in alcohol and drugs.

 

I am LDS adult and do not drink because it is one of the tenets of my faith. I do not care if other adults who are not of my faith drink. At all. Unless you drink to the point of being impaired and then get behind the wheel of a motor vehicle...but that's a whole different topic. I think where teens are concerned, none of them should be drinking. It's against the law until they are 21, and for good reason. Teens and excellent judgment and thinking skills do not go hand in hand. Alcohol also has a more negative impact on a teen's body and brain, and they can develop an addiction more easily...which can lead to a very bleak future.

 

I wish I had the answers on how to prevent teens from starting down this path. I do know that with the youth I've worked with, a sense of belonging and acceptance for who they are goes a long way. I've had girls in the past (and I've only worked closely with girls, so I can't speak for boys) who have felt like they don't quite fit in anywhere, and alcohol was something that made them fit in. "Well, she must be cool if she's drinking." "Hey, Suzy can get us beer, let's go hang out with her!"

 

I've seen first-hand that taking these girls under your wing and loving them, including them, talking to them and paying attention to them works wonders. They also need to know that making a mistake or two with drinking isn't going to cost them your love or respect. I've had girls who were so afraid that they couldn't or wouldn't be accepted any longer after doing "bad" things that they initially thought they had no choice but to continue down the path they'd started on. Kids are SO hard on themselves, and they really need constant love and reassurance in their lives. It's amazing how much my girls' faces light up when I tell them how cute they look, or ask them about a class I know they had a test in, or just hug them and tell them how happy I am to see them. They crave that attention, and it seems like sometimes adults give more attention and affection to little children rather than teens....and teens go elsewhere to seek it.

 

Obviously, that's very simplistic and doesn't by ANY means explain the myriad of reasons a teen may choose to drink. Some teens deal with life situations that would make a seasoned adult blanch...and for those teens a different solution is going to be required. But for teens who are lost and trying to navigate the complex social strata that is high school...and aren't feeling successful at it....just knowing they belong somewhere and are loved can go a long way toward fending off an impulse decision to drink at a party and beginning a journey down a road they never wanted to be on in the first place.

 

And google chrome is allowing me to paragraph!!!!! Woo hoo!! :hurray:

[mommymilkies]

From what I know, people get banned for personal attacks. Calling names, insulting, etc. I was banned last week just for saying people lacked self control. Quoting Scripture or saying someone will pray for you, even if you hate that, is not a personal attack. :confused1:

 

It's one thing if someone asks for prayers. It's another if the other person offers prayers in an offending way. They're saying they think you're stupid/evil/whatever and so they'll pray for you. Pray away, but no reason to announce it to someone who doesn't want it. And there's no point quoting scripture at people of another belief system. If I start quoting from the Zend-Avesta or the The Gardenarian Book of Shadows and telling you I will pray for you, I would have more 1 star ratings on my profile, and I can almost guarantee you someone will report me and cry foul.

 

And if you got banned for saying people lack self-control, why is Crimson Wife not banned for lumping an entire group of people as having character flaws due to a genetic disposition?

[Rose in BC]

I've been reading this thread with interest because I am the mom three kids, two with fetal alcohol syndrome. I completely believe they are genetically predisposed to addiction as all three of them come from a continuous cycle of all sorts of abuse. We didnt know they were FAS when we adopted them. It's been a journey.

 

Anyway, while I believe, actually I know they are addicts (one child for sure was born addicted and went through withdrawal), my mother's heart hopes we can teach them to make choices and that they will choose not to start drinking, etc. otherwise it makes parenting seem so hopeless.

 

For what it's worth, I see the struggle in them everyday (they are teens) and we stay alongside them encouraging them. I know it won't be easy for them...hey life in general isn't easy for them because of their exposure to drugs and alcohol inutero.

[I.Dup.]

 

And if you got banned for saying people lack self-control, why is Crimson Wife not banned for lumping an entire group of people as having character flaws due to a genetic disposition?

 

I'm still a bit bitter about that, but whatever.

 

I understand your frustration. If we lived over in the UAE and I was interacting with people there, I would expect lots of people to quote the Koran and talk about Allah. That would probably get old to me as well, seeing that I am not Muslim. We live in America, which is largely a Christian nation. I'm not sure why the idea that there are so many Christians around is so offensive. Quoting Scripture and offering prayers may feel condescending, but it's not a personal attack. It's not calling you names or attacking your personal character and it's a stretch to say it is. Why not just ignore them if you hate Christians that much, kwim?

[Joanne]

For what it's worth, I see the struggle in them everyday (they are teens) and we stay alongside them encouraging them. I know it won't be easy for them...hey life in general isn't easy for them because of their exposure to drugs and alcohol inutero.

 

 

{{{Rose}}}

[mommymilkies]

It's not the fact that there are Christians around!!!! And I never said I hated Christians!!! I have many Christian friends and love going to Mass. I just find it hypocritical that SOME (not all, some are very nice) use it as a personal attack in how it's said. Like you're some stupid savage who doesn't realize that you're going to burn in hell for eternity. Or they use scripture to back up some prejudice they have and then they hide behind it. It's not right. Don't use holy scripture to be a jerk, and don't tell people condescendingly that you will pray for them because they're so darn stupid.

[garddwr]

I think we should try and get back to the OP's original argument....which is how to prevent TEENS from indulging in alcohol and drugs.

 

I am LDS adult and do not drink because it is one of the tenets of my faith. I do not care if other adults who are not of my faith drink. At all. Unless you drink to the point of being impaired and then get behind the wheel of a motor vehicle...but that's a whole different topic. I think where teens are concerned, none of them should be drinking. It's against the law until they are 21, and for good reason. Teens and excellent judgment and thinking skills do not go hand in hand. Alcohol also has a more negative impact on a teen's body and brain, and they can develop an addiction more easily...which can lead to a very bleak future.

 

I wish I had the answers on how to prevent teens from starting down this path. I do know that with the youth I've worked with, a sense of belonging and acceptance for who they are goes a long way. I've had girls in the past (and I've only worked closely with girls, so I can't speak for boys) who have felt like they don't quite fit in anywhere, and alcohol was something that made them fit in. "Well, she must be cool if she's drinking." "Hey, Suzy can get us beer, let's go hang out with her!"

 

I've seen first-hand that taking these girls under your wing and loving them, including them, talking to them and paying attention to them works wonders. They also need to know that making a mistake or two with drinking isn't going to cost them your love or respect. I've had girls who were so afraid that they couldn't or wouldn't be accepted any longer after doing "bad" things that they initially thought they had no choice but to continue down the path they'd started on. Kids are SO hard on themselves, and they really need constant love and reassurance in their lives. It's amazing how much my girls' faces light up when I tell them how cute they look, or ask them about a class I know they had a test in, or just hug them and tell them how happy I am to see them. They crave that attention, and it seems like sometimes adults give more attention and affection to little children rather than teens....and teens go elsewhere to seek it.

 

Obviously, that's very simplistic and doesn't by ANY means explain the myriad of reasons a teen may choose to drink. Some teens deal with life situations that would make a seasoned adult blanch...and for those teens a different solution is going to be required. But for teens who are lost and trying to navigate the complex social strata that is high school...and aren't feeling successful at it....just knowing they belong somewhere and are loved can go a long way toward fending off an impulse decision to drink at a party and beginning a journey down a road they never wanted to be on in the first place.

 

And google chrome is allowing me to paragraph!!!!! Woo hoo!! :hurray:

 

It seems to me that, here in the United States at least, we have made progress in the realm of preventing tobacco addiction. There have been some successful anti-smoking campaigns aided by a variety of laws limiting advertising of tobacco products as well as limiting smoking in a variety of public venues. Smoking at least seems to be much less common among youth in the United States than it was in Europe. I'm not sure to what extent similar strategies might be effective against underage drinking.

 

I agree that support for young people is critical. Boredom, loneliness, depression...these are serious challenges that need to be addressed in positive ways; kids left to navigate on their own are, I think, much more likely to turn to maladaptive behaviors.

[elegantlion]

 

I'm still a bit bitter about that, but whatever.

 

I understand your frustration. If we lived over in the UAE and I was interacting with people there, I would expect lots of people to quote the Koran and talk about Allah. That would probably get old to me as well, seeing that I am not Muslim. We live in America, which is largely a Christian nation. I'm not sure why the idea that there are so many Christians around is so offensive. Quoting Scripture and offering prayers may feel condescending, but it's not a personal attack. It's not calling you names or attacking your personal character and it's a stretch to say it is. Why not just ignore them if you hate Christians that much, kwim?

 

In some cases it is. Tone is important, also there is a lot of posting history between individuals on this thread.

 

In there is a pull to pray for someone, just do it, you don't have to announce to someone you're going to. In some cases, it feel like the christian is putting themselves on a pedestal and looking down upon the non-believer, like I'm better than you, so please let me pray for your dear lost soul - kind of in a bless your heart tone.

[I.Dup.]

It's not the fact that there are Christians around!!!! And I never said I hated Christians!!! I have many Christian friends and love going to Mass. I just find it hypocritical that SOME (not all, some are very nice) use it as a personal attack in how it's said. Like you're some stupid savage who doesn't realize that you're going to burn in hell for eternity. Or they use scripture to back up some prejudice they have and then they hide behind it. It's not right. Don't use holy scripture to be a jerk, and don't tell people condescendingly that you will pray for them because they're so darn stupid.

 

I'm sorry. :( BUT some people will always say things in what we may see as an insensitive, superior way. They may not actually be like that, who knows. Tone is hard to convey. Some people really rub me wrong. I get it. I think we all have our triggers and I'm not sure how it helps to always be jumping down each other's throats.

 

 

 

In some cases it is. Tone is important, also there is a lot of posting history between individuals on this thread.

 

In there is a pull to pray for someone, just do it, you don't have to announce to someone you're going to. In some cases, it feel like the christian is putting themselves on a pedestal and looking down upon the non-believer, like I'm better than you, so please let me pray for your dear lost soul - kind of in a bless your heart tone.

 

Well, bless your heart.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:ph34r: :auto:

[Mergath]

We live in America, which is largely a Christian nation.

 

No. It's really not.

 

There's a big difference between saying the US has a lot of Christians, and the US is a Christian nation. We don't live in a theocracy, and the US is not a Christian nation.

[I.Dup.]

 

It seems to me that, here in the United States at least, we have made progress in the realm of preventing tobacco addiction. There have been some successful anti-smoking campaigns aided by a variety of laws limiting advertising of tobacco products as well as limiting smoking in a variety of public venues. Smoking at least seems to be much less common among youth in the United States than it was in Europe. I'm not sure to what extent similar strategies might be effective against underage drinking.

 

This is a good point. We clearly have done something right re: smoking, right??

 

There was a horrendous case of drunk driving near Seattle recently. I absolutely loathe drunk driving. I'm not sure why more states cannot put stricter standards in place for that. People die all the time because of drunk drivers. Does FL still have the "3 strike" law?

[FaithManor]

I have Hashimoto's thyroid disease and it's nearly downright unregulatable due to the severity and how many years it took to finally get a diagnosis and treatment. I never eat more than 1000 calories per day and I get most of it from veggies. It's a rare day to even have a piece of fruit. 30 grams of fiber per day. I'm generally miserable - it's a lovely way to live. :glare:

 

It's so nice to know that several of you on this thread find me to be deeply character flawed for having my disease.

 

I, for one, prefer extending grace because I haven't found a single instance when it comes to substance abuse or those suffering from disease, that hate and finger wagging has produced a positive result. Not.once. Since I think it's better to look for solutions and to help people overcome their troubles, then it is to worry about who is more deserving of the holy lightening, I have nothing to add except that possibly homeschooling may be helpful in that the parent may be able to retain control of who the child is with and what influences are brought to bear on that child for a longer period of time. That's about all it is helpful for in terms of substance abuse addictions. But, everday we can get them closer to full frontal lobe maturity and what it means to be fully responsible for personal actions, the better the chances.

 

But for the Grace of God, there go I.

 

Taking my overweight self someplace else in order to chill a little.

 

Faith

[MBM]

Two other books that might be of interest

The Brain That Changes Itself by Norman Doidge and Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion by Robert Cialdini. Cialdini's book doesn't address addiction per se, but it explains what influences humans and why we do what we do. Both are interesting.

I also ordered the book In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts. I'm looking forward to reading the book.

[Chelli]

It's not the fact that there are Christians around!!!! And I never said I hated Christians!!! I have many Christian friends and love going to Mass. I just find it hypocritical that SOME (not all, some are very nice) use it as a personal attack in how it's said. Like you're some stupid savage who doesn't realize that you're going to burn in hell for eternity. Or they use scripture to back up some prejudice they have and then they hide behind it. It's not right. Don't use holy scripture to be a jerk, and don't tell people condescendingly that you will pray for them because they're so darn stupid.

 

Well being from the South, if we throw out a "Bless your heart" combined with an "I'll pray for you", that's when you know we're really riled up! :lol:

 

Addiction is a strange and scary beast. My paternal grandfather was an alcoholic. He hadn't had a drop of liquor since he was wounded in WWII. His brothers, though, all died from alcohol related diseases. I'll never forget my grandfather telling me when I was a teenager that he was an alcoholic. I was shocked. I had never seen him touch a drop of alcohol. He explained to me that he hadn't had a drink in 40 years, but if he even tried to drink just one beer, he'd end up drinking a case. He said, "I won't ever drink alcohol again, but I'll always be an alcoholic." He was telling me all this to warn me to be careful considering my family history of alcoholism. It definitely scared me. I didn't even try alcohol until I was 21, but I didn't have trouble with it. I don't even drink anymore at all.

 

I don't think that trying drugs or alcohol is necessarily a character flaw. A bad choice, possibly, but not something innately wrong with who they are. The kicker about addiction is that you don't know what will happen. I can handle alcohol with no problems. One glass of wine and I'm finished. My dh on the other hand cannot, which is why I haven't touched a drop of alcohol since we got married, out of respect for him. Addicts don't realize that their stupid choice has become a lifelong consequence until they are already addicted. Yes, they would never have the addiction if they hadn't tried the drugs or alcohol to start with, but teenagers and college kids are notorious for making poor choices (I know I did!). For some kids they come out of these stupid choices with no major baggage or consequences. Other people make a bad choice that leaves them with lifelong consequences. My job, as a follower of Christ, is to love and help them as much as I can.

[unsinkable]

 

 

 

 

 

My dad had a heart attack in his early fifties. He was in good shape, ran marathons, ate better-than-average nutritionally, didn't smoke or drink--but he had a heart attack. My grandfather had a heart attack in his forties--he was a very active farmer who ate mostly produce from his own farm. My great-grandmother (grandpa's mother) died of a heart attack in her fifties. Obviously there is a strong genetic predisposition towards heart disease in my family. If I go through life eating a normal, fairly nutritious diet, exercising, etc., but develop heart disease, am I a poor innocent sufferer? What if I eat at McDonald's every day and develop heart disease? What if I follow the Dean Ornish heart disease reversal diet for the rest of my life and don't develop heart disease (the diet is difficult, but my dad was able to get his health back by following it religiously)? If I take the McDonald's every day route I imagine someone could reasonably point a finger at me for bringing the disease on myself--but then what about my husband's grandfather who ate at McDonald's every day from the time he was widowed in his sixties until age 95, and died peacefully of old age two months short of his 100th birthday? Would he be considered morally superior to me because he didn't get sick and I did?

 

 

 

You and your siblings, especially your brothers, if you have them should stay on top of this. Reduce other risk factors as much as possible. But really, the genetic component of early heart attacks is huge.

[unsinkable]

As often happens when this topic is discussed, things are getting personal, and it seems to be focused on the way each of us defines the term, "character flaw." One person's idea of a "flaw" is another person's idea of "innocent experimentation" and another's idea of "something that will get you a window seat on the bus to H*ll,"

 

 

 

At one point in time, my kids would have fought over that window seat.

 

Just sayin'.

[mommymilkies]

Is there a widespread beleif that genes are destiny? I have not heard that - I've heard more what Cw seems to be saying -- genes are there, but nuture will determine whether the trait is expressed or not. If you do have a disposition to become an alcoholic due to your genetics, not drinking will make sure you don't become one. Knowing you have that disposition, and choosing to drink is a character flaw, because you know what you will be inflicting on yourself and those around you, and you chose to do it anyway. Selfishness is a character flaw in an adult.

A tendency towards addiction does not just mean drugs & alcohol. Many people have addictions to things such as food, gambling, sex, etc. You can not avoid all dopamine related activities your entire life. Not easily, at least! And not everyone knows about their genetic disposition, let alone have the choice. As my example above with surgery medication, or kids exposed to alcohol or drugs when young like it's ok to overindulge. Dh does have a deceased alcoholic grandfather. The kids know why he died. We also show them moderation with alcohol. An occasional glass of wine, etc. It is not treated as a something forbidden which makes it fun. My family treated alcohol the same way growing up and none of us became alcoholics, so I'm hoping that (like in Europe, if my French friends are correct!) to show them that moderation or saying no is ok. Sure you won't probably be an alcoholic if you never touch booze. But you could be addicted to other things thanks to a dopamine deficiency. We need to make sure our children know this and are given support and tools to be successful and get through it. And even then, it's not foolproof. Some people come from wonderful homes and families and still become addicts.

[Laura Corin]

I think we should try and get back to the OP's original argument....which is how to prevent TEENS from indulging in alcohol and drugs.

 

I am LDS adult and do not drink because it is one of the tenets of my faith. I do not care if other adults who are not of my faith drink. At all. Unless you drink to the point of being impaired and then get behind the wheel of a motor vehicle...but that's a whole different topic. I think where teens are concerned, none of them should be drinking. It's against the law until they are 21, and for good reason.

 

FWIW, teenagers in the UK are allowed to drink at home. Husband and I model moderate drinking and introduce the same habits to our children while they are at home and before they can drive.

 

Laura

[Lady Florida.]

Does FL still have the "3 strike" law?

 

Yes, but it's not as strict as it sounds. People find ways to get around it all the time, unfortunately.

 

Well being from the South, if we throw out a "Bless your heart" combined with an "I'll pray for you", that's when you know we're really riled up! :lol:

 

 

I was going to post that some "I'll pray for you" statements are equal to a "Bless your heart". You beat me to it. :lol:

[I.Dup.]

Yes, but it's not as strict as it sounds. People find ways to get around it all the time, unfortunately.

 

 

That's really too bad because it sounds like a great thing. I really wish we would get more strict about drunk driving across the board.

[Joker]

FWIW, teenagers in the UK are allowed to drink at home. Husband and I model moderate drinking and introduce the same habits to our children while they are at home and before they can drive.

 

Laura

 

There's also places in the US (at least there used to be) where teens could drink if their parent's were with them and said it was ok. My parents did it a few times with us between 16-20 years of age. Alcohol was always modeled in moderation for us as well, and having a few drinks in our teen years did not lead us to trouble with alcohol. I don't know of any alcoholism in our family, though. A grandfather and his brothers used to have trouble with drinking too much, but later in life they continued to drink but in moderation.

[MBM]

Only a handful of disorders are known to be caused by a mutation in a single gene (cystic fibrosis, Tay-Sachs, for example). Other diseases involve multiple genes which have to be expressed (turned on) usually by environmental factors. What will be interesting is if we can find a way to un-express genes that have been expressed. I have read some very interesting cases that suggest this but they weren't (couldn't be) proven.

[mommymilkies]

Just some research on the topic:

 

http://www.dldocs.st...ticcontribs.pdf

http://psycnet.apa.o...=1994-45582-001

http://www.addiction...n-a-disease.htm

"This is especially important for women who may come from alcoholic families, but who often develop addictions that go undetected, like addictions to tranquilizers, pain relievers, or eating disorders." Well, you can't very well just avoid food altogether or eat continuously to avoid eating disorders, can you?

 

http://www.time.com/...1640436,00.html

http://books.google....ambling&f=false

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11358024

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15939845

[liber]

Not everyone in the medical community believes addiction is a disease. Thomas Szasz comes to mind. While I agree that some people may be predisposed to addiction I don't see it as a disease in the same way as I would see cancer or type 1 diabetes or MS etc as a disease. I do believe one's character does come into play and the choices that they make. I also understand why someone with an undiagnosed or untreated mental illness will self medicated and in that situation I wouldn't see that person as having a character flaw.

 

As to quoting of scripture, I read it as an explanation as to why that poster believes as they do.

[Joanne]

Not everyone in the medical community believes addiction is a disease. Thomas Szasz comes to mind. While I agree that some people may be predisposed to addiction I don't see it as a disease in the same way as I would see cancer or type 1 diabetes or MS etc as a disease. I do believe one's character does come into play and the choices that they make. I also understand why someone with an undiagnosed or untreated mental illness will self medicated and in that situation I wouldn't see that person as having a character flaw.

 

As to quoting of scripture, I read it as an explanation as to why that poster believes as they do.

 

Have you read the peer reviewed, researched, and substantiated material on how chemicals function in the brain of a predisposed individual vs. that of a recreational, non addicted user?

 

The progression of addiction has all the characteristics of disease, and the scientific effect of chemicals on the predisposed brain has *nothing* to do with character.

[mommymilkies]

I agree. A previous poster has covered this point, as well as the point that we need people to take personal responsibility, rather than banning all possible hazards. Sould we ban wheat products because some are celiac? Should strobe lights be banned because some may experience seizures as a result? How about tobacco - if it's bad for the developing infant in utero, should it be banned for males who don't have addictive personalities, and can use it in moderation to the extent that they never develop lung cancer?

 

While not everyone knows about their genetic disposition, they can be educated on the signs of addictive personalities and addiction itself. We can also ban the substances like opium and porn that are addictive for so many that the behaviors it creates become a societal problem. Personally, I think it is selfish not to make an educated decision re: alcohol as it's issues have been known for such a long time that it's like cancer in that most families have been touched at some point by the effects of alcoholism. Watson, the founder of IBM, even moved his payday to try to get around some of the effects. Many were for prohibition in that era, and many are raising and paying for FAS children in this era.

 

The problem is where does it stop. Where is the line between porn and art, for example? And I think prohibition is a good example of a well-meaning law gone wrong. I only hope that more become educated about these things so that the cycle could end. But I don't think it likely. It's not just our screwed up culture, addiction of some form is a problem in most nations and continents. This reminds me of the book Switch. You have to look for the bright spots and try to replicate what works. So what works around the world for addiction? Abstaining from things like alcohol may work for some people, but teaching moderation would be better for others. I think we could all safely say tobacco, in general, is bad, but if you outlaw it, it will just go black market. Many people still smoke knowing the cancer risk, and many would continue to buy $20 packs of cigs.