GRR! Profs who are homeschool bigots... (Vent!!!)

[creekland]

Ok, U Rochester potentials... I finally have a negative to add that isn't weather related and I'm still really peeved about it, but probably shouldn't actually "do" anything other than vent on here to relieve some brain pressure - so here goes.

 

Middle son was invited to interview for a Bio workshop position for next year (leading a workshop to assist students in the class). He, himself, got an uncurved A in the class with a notoriously "different" professor (who tends to get bad reviews on Rate My Professor). My guy ended up liking him and his way of teaching even though the prof is definitely different. So... he was honored to get the invite. His own workshop leader from this past fall told him he was a shoo in and the interview was more or less a formality.

 

Last night he called us and told us he was annoyed/frustrated and the position wasn't going to be happening. Why? Because he was homeschooled!!!!

 

The interview had been going really well. The prof had explained expectations and other such things and mentioned (as we already knew) that he didn't think ANY high school taught Bio well. The prof is a big picture/concept guy and most high schools are memorization factories. "You should know," he said, "what high school did you go to?" "Actually, I was homeschooled," my guy truthfully answered. Immediately the tone changed. He asked some qus about his homeschooling and learned that we're a self-study family (with discussions) and that we live on a farm (but also that dad is a Civil Engineer and mom subs math/science in high school). Shortly after that my guy was told that he likely wouldn't be chosen because there's "no way he could understand students coming in who found the material challenging" and that "he should feel lucky he's a natural at science and that he lived on a farm or there's no way he'd ever be as good at science as he is."

 

I asked if he had a chance to tell him he did Microbio at our local cc and ended up leading his study group there (by choice of the other students)? Did he mention he tutored other students (from church or elsewhere)? Did he mention his own workshop leader thinking he'd be great? And what in the world did living on a farm give him for science (other than maybe seeing animal reproduction early in life)?

 

No, he said, he didn't have time to mention/ask any of that as the prof's tone and demeanor changed immediately after the homeschool relevation. The interview ended rather abruptly afterward. The prof told him that "High school isn't about the learning, it's about the experience."

 

REALLY? If middle son had gone to our high school the chances are great that he wouldn't have even qualified to go to a school as highly rated as U Rochester... but since we homeschooled him... we cheated him out of something better???

 

I'm mad and I'll freely admit this school I loved up until now has me wishing we'd chosen another. (I'll also admit we could have run into a similar bigot at another.)

 

Fortunately, this is the only prof middle son thinks feels this way and the chances are good that he'll have other options for next year (he's really open and likes many different classes/things plus had As in all of his classes) - but seeing a bigot discriminate against anyone, anywhere, ALWAYS makes my blood boil. We aren't talking about a new freshman coming in. My guy has PROVEN himself THERE as well as in his high school years. But in the end, he wouldn't want to be working for a bigot anyway, so he's not taking this any further.

 

At best, maybe he's taken a small chunk out of this prof's closed mind. There's always hope for that.

 

But yeah, I really needed to vent with folks who can understand. What I "want" to do is contact the HR office and the prof and have some honest conversation. But I won't. I don't want to put my guy in a "weird" position. He's also not doing it as he is open to other options and didn't feel he needed "this one or bust." As we said, even IF the prof were to get overruled (very, very doubtful), who wants to work for a bigot?

 

Oh, and all of you non-farm folks - your kids are "doomed" when it comes to science. Just don't expect me to be able to explain why...

 

Those of you who may be considering U Rochester - I can vouch for my son's experience being top notch - except for this (and when it boils down, this only affects the intro Bio at this point - even his 2nd semester Bio prof is different - you can't escape the first one though, so would want to "stay in the closet" for him - or choose elsewhere).

 

(Note: quotes may not be word for word, but the intent is exactly as I heard it)

[jhschool]

Your son is better off FAR AWAY from this jerk.

Imagine if your DS had started working for him, everything was set,

and then the guy showed his true colors? Your DS could have been

dismissed. Or there could have been other issues--there is a good chance

that a prof like this has other stupidities and hangups, not just this one.

Better to have your son have "lost" this opportunity than be near an

idiot like this.

 

Of course, it feels bad. But God has closed this door for a reason. I bet

you there are better things out there for your son. Maybe a better workshop

at the same university, maybe a better job? You never know.

 

You are right to be angry. This guy's behavior is egregious.

 

Have your DS get a tutoring job in Biology. I used to be a tutor at my college.

It paid decently, and by the hour. Your DS is good, so he will be requested.

And it will be a more flexible schedule.

 

:grouphug:

[Luckymama]

Dingleberry :rolleyes:

[Gwen in VA]

Ouch! <sympathy hug>

 

I guess this prof isn't your son's advisor -- at my kids' school, all of their advisors had access to all of the pre-college info (high school, AP scores, etc.)

[Jane in NC]

An entire university cannot be dismissed because of one professor. Every school or work place has its jerks. Fortunately your son knows not to choose him as a future advisor!

 

Bigotry is an ugly thing. This is a tough lesson for your son but I am confident that he will use it to spring forward with a greater understanding of human failing.

[regentrude]

I am very sorry. And what an utterly bizarre string of arguments! I would be upset, too. I hope your son does not take it too hard - this is NOT about him, but about the prof.

[snowbeltmom]

 

At best, maybe he's taken a small chunk out of this prof's closed mind. There's always hope for that.

 

I would be livid too, but as others have said, your son is better off not working with him.

 

I don't hold out any hope of opening this prof's mind when he believes that high school isn't about the learning, it's about the experience. People who believe this will never "get" homeschooling.

[Nan in Mass]

Grrr...

That smarts.

Everyone runs into people like that. If it hadn't been homeschooling, it would be something else. Maybe you can tell your son to remember why ducks have waxy feathers.

At least the prof isn't his advisor. And now he will know to avoid him.

 

Hugs,

Nan

[Sebastian (a lady)]

So your son was judged as incapable of understanding people with educational experiences that differ from his by a professor who seems incapable of understanding someone with an educational experience that differs from the norm?

 

I agree that this is someone I wouldn't want to work with.

[creekland]

 

Imagine if your DS had started working for him, everything was set,

and then the guy showed his true colors? Your DS could have been

dismissed. Or there could have been other issues--there is a good chance

that a prof like this has other stupidities and hangups, not just this one.

Better to have your son have "lost" this opportunity than be near an

idiot like this.

 

All true... but I hadn't thought about the implications of getting the job, then being outed later. It probably is good that it happened now. The thing that really bugs me is that he and the prof had a little bit of a relationship - enough for the prof to choose him to interview. Had the question not come up, it's likely he would have the job, but that one question - or the answer to it - totally changed all of that? Why? Why can't humans go on what they see and experience from an individual rather than stereotypes?

 

Ouch! <sympathy hug>

 

I guess this prof isn't your son's advisor -- at my kids' school, all of their advisors had access to all of the pre-college info (high school, AP scores, etc.)

 

No - definitely not his adviser...

 

An entire university cannot be dismissed because of one professor. Every school or work place has its jerks. Fortunately your son knows not to choose him as a future advisor!

 

Bigotry is an ugly thing. This is a tough lesson for your son but I am confident that he will use it to spring forward with a greater understanding of human failing.

 

:iagree: I will still eventually go back to loving the place - and middle son still loves it - it's just his first time being the object of discrimination. I think, as a homeschooling mom, it hits me harder because I hate the thought of closing doors for my guy even if I firmly believe it's the other character at fault.

 

My warning is to those who want to go there and perhaps major in Bio (for my guy it's a pre-med and brain/cognitive science req). You'd want to stay in the closet when around this guy.

 

And what an utterly bizarre string of arguments! I would be upset, too.

 

My mind is spinning from it. How does one counter that? I "expect" educated people to know to judge based upon performance - not stereotypes - esp bizarre stereotypes. My "stereotype" of "educated" is blown!

 

I don't hold out any hope of opening this prof's mind when he believes that high school isn't about the learning, it's about the experience. People who believe this will never "get" homeschooling.

 

You are probably right, but hopefully somewhere something in his brain has been challenged... He knew who my guy was before the interview. He wasn't just a name with an A.

[creekland]

Everyone runs into people like that. If it hadn't been homeschooling, it would be something else.

Hugs,

Nan

 

Likely true here too. The guy is "different" and it's not just our family who thinks so. We've seen it mentioned on Rate My Professor quite a bit. The vast majority don't care for him. He probably alienates others in other ways.

 

So your son was judged as incapable of understanding people with educational experiences that differ from his by a professor who seems incapable of understanding someone with an educational experience that differs from the norm?

 

I agree that this is someone I wouldn't want to work with.

 

That's an interesting way of putting it. I'll have to remember to share that one with my guy. He'll like it.

 

Interestingly enough... the same day as the interview - he was chosen (out of oodles who applied) to be one of the orientation sophomores helping the freshmen next year... Obviously others think he's handled the adjustment ok.

[Jane in NC]

All true... but I hadn't thought about the implications of getting the job, then being outed later. It probably is good that it happened now. The thing that really bugs me is that he and the prof had a little bit of a relationship - enough I think, as a homeschooling mom, it hits me harder because I hate the thought of closing doors for my guy even if I firmly believe it's the other character at fault.

 

My warning is to those who want to go there and perhaps major in Bio (for my guy it's a pre-med and brain/cognitive science req). You'd want to stay in the closet when around this guy.

As the eternal optimist, I will hope that your son achieves recognition as an undergrad so that this professor has his own "ah ha" moment concerning homeschooling.

 

Our kids attend college not only to be educated but also to share their knowledge and experience. Prof X is certainly in need of a lesson.

[kiana]

Frankly, I stayed 'in the closet' through a lot of my undergrad. I wanted to be judged for who I was, and not on other people's perceptions of homeschooling, whether positive or negative.

 

I am sorry he met such an ass, but I agree with the others who said that he is much better off not working for him and getting 'exposed' later. At least now he has not gotten fired on some trumped-up offense.

[JuanitaL]

 

 

Oh, and all of you non-farm folks - your kids are "doomed" when it comes to science. Just don't expect me to be able to explain why...

 

 

I am using this as validation/motivation to finally order those chickens from Murray McMurray's. If that's all it may take to stand between my kids and imminent doom ... are chickens enough to be considered a "farm"? I also want a dairy goat, if I can convince my husband that it's vital to our kids college education he may go for it. As for your vent, I'll share one of our family mottos - "some people suck". I have no idea what that would be in Latin.

[stripe]

An entire university cannot be dismissed because of one professor. Every school or work place has its jerks. Fortunately your son knows not to choose him as a future advisor!

 

Bigotry is an ugly thing. This is a tough lesson for your son but I am confident that he will use it to spring forward with a greater understanding of human failing.

Yep. I had a professor in grad school make dismissive statements about my intellect based solely on my home state. (Doesn't speak very well of your admissions policy, then, does it?)

[MBM]

Ugh. Your son is lucky to have learned what this prof is like before getting stuck with him.

[Catherine]

Wow Creekland-I'm just seeing this now and I'm shocked. Not shocked that there is ignorance out there, in all quarters, but shocked that it was manifested in this way. I am so disappointed for your son at being unfairly eliminated from the pool of applicants. But I agree with others here who've basically stated that success is the best revenge, and it's a GOOD thing that this didn't somehow come back to haunt him later, with bigger consequences. It's very difficult not to see this chucklehead as representative of the entire place, huh? We both know that's not true though! UR loves homeschoolers, at least, their admissions office does, compared to other schools, IMO. This guy is an outlier, no question.

 

I wonder if there's any way to expose the professor without incurring risk to your student.

 

Ideas, ladies??

[Mama Geek]

Hey if the biology world doesn't want the farmers, try engineering. Everyone know that farm kids make the best engineers. :lol:

 

I am sorry your son had to deal with such a jerk, and yes he probably won't be the last. I was a woman in engineering who came across a complete jerk that made my life miserable. Unfortunately he worked for the customer, not the company I was working for.

[Nan in Mass]

Hey if the biology world doesn't want the farmers, try engineering. Everyone know that farm kids make the best engineers. :lol:

 

Ok - that is seriously funny!

[Gwen in VA]

And you never know -- maybe the prof in the office next door to this jerk would be THRILLED to know that your son was homeschooled! Profs vary as widely as.....well, any other random group of people!

 

My dd ended up spending part of last Friday night talking with a prof who was excited to hear about dd's homeschooling experiences -- and at the end of the conversation the prof mentioned that she (the prof) is now considering it as an option for her 2yo!!!

[Lori D.]

wow. just. wow.

 

 

:grouphug: hugs, and hoping the doors will soon open for the even BETTER opportunities in store for your DS!

[creekland]

At least now he has not gotten fired on some trumped-up offense.

 

 

Very true.

I am using this as validation/motivation to finally order those chickens from Murray McMurray's. If that's all it may take to stand between my kids and imminent doom ... are chickens enough to be considered a "farm"? I also want a dairy goat, if I can convince my husband that it's vital to our kids college education he may go for it. As for your vent, I'll share one of our family mottos - "some people suck". I have no idea what that would be in Latin.

 

 

:lol:

 

Well, for our farm we have chickens (and the boys have hatched some out via an incubator), ponies (we breed them), a large garden (we had a garden in the city too, but evidently that wasn't large enough), a stocked pond (great for dissecting fish), woods, pastures, and a large creek. We get plenty of basic wildlife and some not-so-basic like Blue Herons, all sorts of hawks, and Bald Eagles. Farmers next to us have cows, alpacas, and a U Pick Strawberry place. I'm not quite sure which aspect is the important one for my boys science acquisition. I actually might have guessed our microscope, but that could be purchased by city folks, so that can't be part of it. It also evidently has nothing to do with both hubby and I loving science and making it part of our life no matter where we go.

 

It's very difficult not to see this chucklehead as representative of the entire place, huh? We both know that's not true though! UR loves homeschoolers, at least, their admissions office does, compared to other schools, IMO. This guy is an outlier, no question.

 

I wonder if there's any way to expose the professor without incurring risk to your student.

 

Ideas, ladies??

 

 

I fully agree that UR loves homeschoolers. The Dean of Admissions told me their experience with homeschoolers has been good and they've found them equally as prepared as their ps counterparts. My guy hasn't had any other negative experience when "coming out" to friends, his pre-med adviser, or some other profs. It really is one bad apple that is spoiling my brain at the moment (but this vent is definitely helping - I needed an outlet!).

 

Ugh. Your son is lucky to have learned what this prof is like before getting stuck with him.

 

 

:iagree:

 

Hey if the biology world doesn't want the farmers, try engineering. Everyone know that farm kids make the best engineers. :lol:

 

:lol: Hubby would like for one of the boys to follow in his footsteps, but none have inherited the love of engineering compared to other opportunities. Such is life.

 

And you never know -- maybe the prof in the office next door to this jerk would be THRILLED to know that your son was homeschooled! Profs vary as widely as.....well, any other random group of people!

 

My dd ended up spending part of last Friday night talking with a prof who was excited to hear about dd's homeschooling experiences -- and at the end of the conversation the prof mentioned that she (the prof) is now considering it as an option for her 2yo!!!

 

 

Awesome!

 

In many high schools the top students are expected to tutor the bottom students, without disrespecting the teachers who weren't able to deliver effective lessons. Prof should have phrased his fishing a little differently..."what is your experience in tutoring students without study skills and students who come in to the course poorly prepared?".

 

Yes, that question would have made sense - and middle son has oodles of experience. He could even have offered references as he still stays in touch with some of his microbio classmates.

 

This is a really common attitude from those who had to put a lot of effort in to something, not realizing that the person who seems a natural has already put the effort in over the years, and developed some efficiencies and expertise in knowledge acquisition. It also may be that the man is conscious of the many disadvantaged students who had to bootstrap themselves to get into the U, and is looking for someone who has put that level of work in. Again, better ways to phrase.

 

A homeschooler who self-studied (for the most part) and is at UR on significant merit aid ought to fit that bill if that's what he was looking for.

I'd chalk this up to inexperience interviewing. Should have noted that the man was dissing high school bio teachers, and responded with something along the lines "well, I was a dual enrolled student for high school. I did my sciences at the local CC where the Profs were pretty good at requiring more than memorization" and led into a summary of his experience helping less prepared students who had come from rote memorization science high schools.

 

It doesn't get any better. Many are looking for 'the best' candidate who just happens to look like a clone of themselves, and 'good enough' is getting discarded in the quest. Better off learning from the experience and looking for a better fit.

 

 

He wouldn't have been completely truthful if he'd gone that route. He only did three DE classes and only one of those was science. The rest was at home, with books, experiments, the ability to ask questions, and dedication.

 

I find myself preferring honesty even if it didn't get him the job. Not being under this prof is likely for the best. My guess is he'll still be helping next year's students who take the course - esp since he'll be living with the freshmen as part of that position. He just won't get paid for it. He already helps others in other classes (Calc, Chem, etc). The other students don't seem to mind his background at all.

[Barbara H]

Ug. Hate that and I'm sorry it happened to him!

 

As I want to believe that most people are good and life usually turns out... I have to note that sometimes we've seen some benefit from the positive stereotypes about homeschooling. So, for example, first meeting with the Latin professor and two minutes into the conversation "Oh you are homeschooled, we love homeschoolers and they always do well in our program, let's place you in an upper level course."

[creekland]

ps If anyone feels they might need to know the prof or is just plain curious about his Rate My Professor rating you can send me a pm and I'll give you a link, BUT you need to promise not to interfere at the school with this situation. It is ONLY for those who might need it or those who are just curious about what others have said.

 

A) It will be obvious who you are talking about student-wise and I can't see anything good coming out of it.

 

B. Both my son and I agree that he wouldn't want the job at this point. Not with that kind of bigotry.

 

Edited because it changed my "B" into a smiley...

Edited March 20, 2013 by creekland

[swimmermom3]

As a student, I would have written a letter.

 

 

 

Dear Professor So and So,

 

Thank you for taking the time to interview me for the position of x. While I understand that your decision has been made, there are a couple of points that were brought up during the interview that I would like to clarify in order to avoid any further misconceptions.

 

First, my ability in science has little to do with being raised on a farm and more to do with hours of hard work and diligent study as evidenced by A, B, and C.

 

Next, there are few students who do not know what it is like to struggle in at least one discipline. I am no exception and through my struggles with underwater basketweaving, I learned X,Y, and Z. I have also been on the other side of that equation and have tutored students in ...

 

 

 

But then I am not always appropriate. I see nothing wrong with or unprofessional about clarifying the situation to this professor.

[Miss Marple]

Yeah, we've had experience with one of those. DS took a computer course as a dual enrolled student. One the first day of class the professor, when calling roll, asked each student where he/she had attended high school. When my ds stated he was homeschooled, she said "Oh, I'm sorry". DS felt like sliding under the table (he's very shy). She made it a point to pick apart his work but added condescending statements like, "this is difficult, but you're doing very well" (this was a basic computer class and he knew much of the material already - she was determined to give him a B B). When the students took the final exam, they went to her desk where she tallied the score and told them their final grade. My son said she kept re-checking her math when she discovered he, indeed, had the points for an A. She told him grudgingly that he had barely gotten enough points for an A. DS walked out of there feeling 8 feet tall. :)

 

While it might have seemed to be a dream job, your son is lucky to not be working with such a schmuck. Something better will come along :)

[creekland]

They don't see that way. They are comparing him with children who went to schools with poor teachers, huge class sizes, and no written resources and came home to a small apt or trailer with one parent that doesn't have a high school education, no room to observe nature or investigate much of anything and using a library that hasn't bought new science books in fifty years to squeeze some internet time in to gain some knowledge. He's likely viewing your son as someone with significant mentoring and assets to purchase access to info; in his eyes it would be remarkable if such a child did not soak up as much as he did given the private tutoring and access he has in comparison to most others.

 

 

This is a 50K+ per year school where a significant portion of the students are full pay or significant pay. If the prof is looking for someone like you mention, he'll have to look far and wide because there are very few there. My guy is on the lower end of the income bracket. Even those who are with him in that aspect tend to come from a place of "advantage" giving them an edge rather than not (usually better schools that are charter or similar).

 

When he gets more experience interviewing he'll hear the real question behind the word, and learn to respond in his favor. He should check out any offerings the U's career center has in the way of interview training.

 

It is not to his advantage to go around thinking that he would be a shoe-in if he had not volunteered that he was home schooled. It's in the same category as chalking it up to gender, skin color etc. Best to realize that there was more to it.

 

 

I get what you are saying, but considering he has done well in everything else he has done there including getting his latest position for next year, I don't think that's the problem. He almost snagged a paid lab job that "they never give freshmen" but that prof ended up not hiring anyone for now (budget constraints). I think he has the interviewing part down ok - at least - for most situations. ;) In situations like this, I really think it's better he not be working there. And yes, it is bigotry akin to skin color, gender, etc. But this wasn't a case where he wanted this job badly. It was an opportunity he thought could be fun. There will be other opportunities in better environments.

 

As a student, I would have written a letter.

 

 

 

Dear Professor So and So,

 

Thank you for taking the time to interview me for the position of x. While I understand that your decision has been made, there are a couple of points that were brought up during the interview that I would like to clarify in order to avoid any further misconceptions.

 

First, my ability in science has little to do with being raised on a farm and more to do with hours of hard work and diligent study as evidenced by A, B, and C.

 

Next, there are few students who do not know what it is like to struggle in at least one discipline. I am no exception and through my struggles with underwater basketweaving, I learned X,Y, and Z. I have also been on the other side of that equation and have tutored students in ...

 

 

 

But then I am not always appropriate. I see nothing wrong with or unprofessional about clarifying the situation to this professor.

 

 

This sounds intriguing. It might be something middle son would want to follow up with - but not right now. He's continuing on with life at the moment. I suspect he probably will want to just do well in opportunities that do come up knowing that one can't please everyone all the time.

 

Yeah, we've had experience with one of those. ... When the students took the final exam, they went to her desk where she tallied the score and told them their final grade. My son said she kept re-checking her math when she discovered he, indeed, had the points for an A. She told him grudgingly that he had barely gotten enough points for an A. DS walked out of there feeling 8 feet tall. :)

 

 

Awesome that he got an A! I'm glad my guy was finished with this prof's course before he "came out." The grading is by the syllabus and he had an easy A, but one never knows what could have happened with grading on any test or whatever.

 

As I want to believe that most people are good and life usually turns out... I have to note that sometimes we've seen some benefit from the positive stereotypes about homeschooling. So, for example, first meeting with the Latin professor and two minutes into the conversation "Oh you are homeschooled, we love homeschoolers and they always do well in our program, let's place you in an upper level course."

 

For the record, I have no regrets with choosing to homeschool him. He has become far more educated and has far more opportunities than his academic peers from ps (those who were of similar ability to him back when he was in ps). He also liked homeschooling better. I guess we've just always been sheltered from the homeschooling bigots before because he has always proven them wrong via his performances or knowledge or whatever. This is the first time that hasn't happened.

[sgo95]

I'm sorry that your DS had to go through that, but I agree that it's best he knows what this prof. is like earlier rather than later. Unfortunately, there are all sorts of loons that are allowed to run loose in academia, at every level. There's lots of politics in play, there are cliques, etc. that affect how people do in graduate school, what positions they're able to land, whether their work gets published at a certain level, and whether they make different levels of tenure. In other words, as with many things in life, success in academia is not necessarily meritocratic. Thankfully for your DS, this professor does not control your DS' success in the future and it sounds like your DS is doing extremely well anyway.

[creekland]

There's lots of politics in play, there are cliques, etc. that affect how people do in graduate school, what positions they're able to land, whether their work gets published at a certain level, and whether they make different levels of tenure. In other words, as with many things in life, success in academia is not necessarily meritocratic. Thankfully for your DS, this professor does not control your DS' success in the future and it sounds like your DS is doing extremely well anyway.

 

 

Very true with your points and in that aspect it is good for him to be exposed to this. The way we want the world to work and the way it often works tend to be two different things.

 

I need to remember our #1 universal rule when it comes to dealing with real life:

 

Life's not fair, deal with it rather than dwelling on it.

 

But I'd still like to eliminate bigotry in all of its forms... You know, in my personal dream world... the one where life does work like it's "supposed to."

[TranquilMind]

Ok, U Rochester potentials... I finally have a negative to add that isn't weather related and I'm still really peeved about it, but probably shouldn't actually "do" anything other than vent on here to relieve some brain pressure - so here goes.

 

Middle son was invited to interview for a Bio workshop position for next year (leading a workshop to assist students in the class). He, himself, got an uncurved A in the class with a notoriously "different" professor (who tends to get bad reviews on Rate My Professor). My guy ended up liking him and his way of teaching even though the prof is definitely different. So... he was honored to get the invite. His own workshop leader from this past fall told him he was a shoo in and the interview was more or less a formality.

 

Last night he called us and told us he was annoyed/frustrated and the position wasn't going to be happening. Why? Because he was homeschooled!!!!

 

The interview had been going really well. The prof had explained expectations and other such things and mentioned (as we already knew) that he didn't think ANY high school taught Bio well. The prof is a big picture/concept guy and most high schools are memorization factories. "You should know," he said, "what high school did you go to?" "Actually, I was homeschooled," my guy truthfully answered. Immediately the tone changed. He asked some qus about his homeschooling and learned that we're a self-study family (with discussions) and that we live on a farm (but also that dad is a Civil Engineer and mom subs math/science in high school). Shortly after that my guy was told that he likely wouldn't be chosen because there's "no way he could understand students coming in who found the material challenging" and that "he should feel lucky he's a natural at science and that he lived on a farm or there's no way he'd ever be as good at science as he is."

 

I asked if he had a chance to tell him he did Microbio at our local cc and ended up leading his study group there (by choice of the other students)? Did he mention he tutored other students (from church or elsewhere)? Did he mention his own workshop leader thinking he'd be great? And what in the world did living on a farm give him for science (other than maybe seeing animal reproduction early in life)?

 

No, he said, he didn't have time to mention/ask any of that as the prof's tone and demeanor changed immediately after the homeschool relevation. The interview ended rather abruptly afterward. The prof told him that "High school isn't about the learning, it's about the experience."

 

REALLY? If middle son had gone to our high school the chances are great that he wouldn't have even qualified to go to a school as highly rated as U Rochester... but since we homeschooled him... we cheated him out of something better???

 

I'm mad and I'll freely admit this school I loved up until now has me wishing we'd chosen another. (I'll also admit we could have run into a similar bigot at another.)

 

Fortunately, this is the only prof middle son thinks feels this way and the chances are good that he'll have other options for next year (he's really open and likes many different classes/things plus had As in all of his classes) - but seeing a bigot discriminate against anyone, anywhere, ALWAYS makes my blood boil. We aren't talking about a new freshman coming in. My guy has PROVEN himself THERE as well as in his high school years. But in the end, he wouldn't want to be working for a bigot anyway, so he's not taking this any further.

 

At best, maybe he's taken a small chunk out of this prof's closed mind. There's always hope for that.

 

But yeah, I really needed to vent with folks who can understand. What I "want" to do is contact the HR office and the prof and have some honest conversation. But I won't. I don't want to put my guy in a "weird" position. He's also not doing it as he is open to other options and didn't feel he needed "this one or bust." As we said, even IF the prof were to get overruled (very, very doubtful), who wants to work for a bigot?

 

Oh, and all of you non-farm folks - your kids are "doomed" when it comes to science. Just don't expect me to be able to explain why...

 

Those of you who may be considering U Rochester - I can vouch for my son's experience being top notch - except for this (and when it boils down, this only affects the intro Bio at this point - even his 2nd semester Bio prof is different - you can't escape the first one though, so would want to "stay in the closet" for him - or choose elsewhere).

 

(Note: quotes may not be word for word, but the intent is exactly as I heard it)

 

 

Wow. He'd be getting at least a strongly worded letter from me (and probably from my kid).

 

I like to wait until the professors get to know my kid and then spring the homeschooling background on them. They realize they might have been unreasonably predjudiced that way.

 

What a jerk. Your son might have been able to turn that around if he led with the part about having tutored others, and having already taken college Microbio, before mentioning that his schooling background at home with an engineer father and a math/science teacher mom. But - hey, he's a kid! He will know better next time, for sure.

[TranquilMind]

Yeah, we've had experience with one of those. DS took a computer course as a dual enrolled student. One the first day of class the professor, when calling roll, asked each student where he/she had attended high school. When my ds stated he was homeschooled, she said "Oh, I'm sorry". DS felt like sliding under the table (he's very shy). She made it a point to pick apart his work but added condescending statements like, "this is difficult, but you're doing very well" (this was a basic computer class and he knew much of the material already - she was determined to give him a B B). When the students took the final exam, they went to her desk where she tallied the score and told them their final grade. My son said she kept re-checking her math when she discovered he, indeed, had the points for an A. She told him grudgingly that he had barely gotten enough points for an A. DS walked out of there feeling 8 feet tall. :)

 

While it might have seemed to be a dream job, your son is lucky to not be working with such a schmuck. Something better will come along :)

 

 

I'm sorry for your son's ridiculous experience. What a nut job.

 

My daughter had a very similar experience! She was actually bullied in COLLEGE classes, just like your son. Who expects THAT -and by the professor? She's not much of a complainer (except about ME), so she didn't tell me until the class was nearly over. It was a junior-year level class.

 

The prof commented every class period about how we have this little high school student among us, who is doing "very well" (insert condescension). The prof actually made fun of her current (gifted) high school and asked, "Don't all the nerdy kids over there sacrifice goats or something?" Can you believe that? I can't believe my daughter didn't tell me until later. She just stared the prof down with that steely-eye glare of hers. I guess it came in handy there. She did get an A. But she declined to join a college group for the subject that she was especially invited to join by her next professor in the same subject, because the one who bullied her was in charge of it.

 

When she entered the next professor's class, which included a lot of the same college juniors, one said to her, "Back for more abuse? I hope you don't get it from this guy!" And she didn't.

[plansrme]

uncurved A in the class with a notoriously "different" professor (who tends to get bad reviews on Rate My Professor). My guy ended up liking him and his way of teaching even though the prof is definitely different. So... he was honored to get the invite. His own workshop leader from this past fall told him he was a shoo in and the interview was more or less a formality.

 

Guess we know to listen to Rate My Professor now. This experience reminded me of my own my freshman year of college. I took Chemistry I (this was Chem for chem majors, not chem for poets) from a notoriously difficult, widely reviled prof, and made an A. Seventy percent of the class failed. Yea me, right? So I figured everyone was wrong and I should sign up for the same guy for Chem II. Oh my goodness, they were right, I was wrong. I had sailed through Chem I based on my high school chem background and the fact that I had nearly memorized the periodic table. Chem II, when I had to learn from HIM? Lowest grade I have ever received, either before or since. When grades were posted, I jumped up and down because I had passed and did not have to take him again. That was the last time I voluntarily took a class from someone so universally despised.

 

I am sorry for your son's experience but hope it all turns out for the best.

 

Terri

[Catherine]

Ya know, I just thought of something. My middle ds is a sophomore in as PS math\science magnet, and at a recent parent-teacher conference, I was asked by his algebra 2 teacher-a Russian guy who is a math PhD!-yes! (his school gets some awesome teachers)-where he went to middle school. Of course, I told him it was our little home academy. This conversation came about because ds, he reported, was one of his best students and he was disappointed that he was not volunteering and participating more in class. Well, he mocked me a bit at first, but then immediately changed his tune and said he really wished that he could teach more students one on one, that he knew he had some very gifted math students who would really benefit from that, AND he knew he would love teaching in that setting. I *think* we ended on a positive note. We'll see next report card...

[Jane in NC]

Wow. He'd be getting at least a strongly worded letter from me (and probably from my kid).

 

I like to wait until the professors get to know my kid and then spring the homeschooling background on them. They realize they might have been unreasonably predjudiced that way.

 

I would heartily recommend that a parent not intervene in this case. I believe that students need to stand up for themselves.

 

I am curious how you are interfacing with your college student's profs. How do you "spring the homeschooling background on them"? Granted, I live a distance from my son's college so I do not have a personal relationship with his professors.

[Nscribe]

"You should know," he said, "what high school did you go to?" "Actually, I was homeschooled," my guy truthfully answered. Immediately the tone changed. He asked some qus about his homeschooling and learned that we're a self-study family (with discussions) and that we live on a farm (but also that dad is a Civil Engineer and mom subs math/science in high school). Shortly after that my guy was told that he likely wouldn't be chosen because there's "no way he could understand students coming in who found the material challenging" and that "he should feel lucky he's a natural at science and that he lived on a farm or there's no way he'd ever be as good at science as he is."

 

 

 

The acknowledgment of your sons "leet skillz", buried in this professor's diatribe, are what struck me reading it. The professor could not escape that your son is "as good at science as he is" and "a natural at science". I guess I am the sort who would be sending my kiddo a t-shirt that read "Homeschooled Farmboys are Good at Science". But, then again, I sometimes lack the desire to take seriously those who take themselves and their distorted paradigms too seriously.

[TranquilMind]

I would heartily recommend that a parent not intervene in this case. I believe that students need to stand up for themselves.

 

I am curious how you are interfacing with your college student's profs. How do you "spring the homeschooling background on them"? Granted, I live a distance from my son's college so I do not have a personal relationship with his professors.

 

Oh, you are right. My kid's still in and early-college high school, but in college for this subject. I didn't actually intervene.

 

I was thinking high school momentarily (in which I probably would intervene), because mine is a high schooler and I was busy.

 

The college profs have never spoken to me nor I to them, though I have met all the high school teachers, of course. None of them had the slightest idea she had been homeschooled until high school.

[creekland]

Wow. He'd be getting at least a strongly worded letter from me (and probably from my kid).

 

...

 

What a jerk. Your son might have been able to turn that around if he led with the part about having tutored others, and having already taken college Microbio, before mentioning that his schooling background at home with an engineer father and a math/science teacher mom.

 

Yeah... my human side wants to speak to the guy or HR, but my logic side knows that even if he wanted to pursue it, he would have to be the one doing 100% of the interaction with me just listening to the commentary afterward (as we're doing now). We tell our guys that we help get them in to college and help with selecting their freshman fall classes - after that they are on their own with their advisers. At that point both they and their advisers will know more than we do. If mistakes are made, they will add to their learning experiences (just as they would if we had made mistakes). We listen and share with their lives - as much as they'll keep us in the loop - but it's their lives.

 

I reread what I wrote yesterday morning (quickly before leaving for school). To clarify just a bit, the prof knew what we (parents) did and that kiddo grew up on a farm before the homeschooling part. The homeschooling part was at the end and was what ended the interview with a complete change of tone in his voice along with the tidbits that high school wasn't for the academics - it's for the experience + he should be glad he grew up on a farm or he wouldn't be as good at science as he is (no explanation). The 100% change in tone is why my guy knows it's a bigot situation and not simply due to his being "too good at science" for the job. The interview had been going really well with a nice rapport - unitl he came out of the closet.

 

I'm sorry for your son's ridiculous experience. What a nut job.

 

My daughter had a very similar experience! She was actually bullied in COLLEGE classes, just like your son. Who expects THAT -and by the professor? She's not much of a complainer (except about ME), so she didn't tell me until the class was nearly over. It was a junior-year level class.

 

The prof commented every class period about how we have this little high school student among us, who is doing "very well" (insert condescension). The prof actually made fun of her current (gifted) high school and asked, "Don't all the nerdy kids over there sacrifice goats or something?"

Wow! I'm glad she got an A, but wow! Of course, I don't know what this prof would do had he known while middle son was still in class, but I'd like to think he wouldn't go that far.

 

 

Guess we know to listen to Rate My Professor now. This experience reminded me of my own my freshman year of college. I took Chemistry I (this was Chem for chem majors, not chem for poets) from a notoriously difficult, widely reviled prof, and made an A. Seventy percent of the class failed. Yea me, right? So I figured everyone was wrong and I should sign up for the same guy for Chem II. Oh my goodness, they were right, I was wrong. I had sailed through Chem I based on my high school chem background and the fact that I had nearly memorized the periodic table. Chem II, when I had to learn from HIM? Lowest grade I have ever received, either before or since. When grades were posted, I jumped up and down because I had passed and did not have to take him again. That was the last time I voluntarily took a class from someone so universally despised.

 

Terri

Most RMP posts state that students learn more off his slides rather than from his lecture in class, but that didn't bother us a whole lot (it could be why my self-studying guy got an easy A since that type of learning is one he knows how to do). What bothers us more is his arrogant attitude - the "I'm right and the world is wrong if they disagree" attitude - but even that can be chalked up to just the way some people are. When that mixed with his belief that homeschoolers can't be good at academics or tutoring/leading workshops is where it made my blood boil. I suspect the two of us wouldn't be good friends if we were colleagues. I prefer those who have their beliefs, but who also understand "the other side" and are tolerant of it realizing that intelligent people can disagree.

 

When middle son sat in on this prof's class he freely admitted the class went into far more depth than his cc Bio class, but he also went up to ask the prof a question after class. The prof more or less dismissed him and told him he'd have to learn "real science" before he (my son) could understand the answer. I forgot the actual question, but I remember it was plant (botany) related - and a "true science" question. We both figured it was how this guy answered any question where he didn't know the answer (the prof's specialty is not botany). His overall demeaner was very off-putting rather than encouraging. Even though his class was deeper (and youngest would have loved that) he preferred his cc prof due to attitude.

 

Those are little tidbits we didn't think much of then (annoying, but not earth shattering), but now, in light of the bigotry too, I'm glad my guy won't be working for him. Honestly, he does have other options. This was just the first (not counting his being chosen to work with the freshman class next year).

 

Well, he mocked me a bit at first, but then immediately changed his tune and said he really wished that he could teach more students one on one, that he knew he had some very gifted math students who would really benefit from that, AND he knew he would love teaching in that setting. I *think* we ended on a positive note. We'll see next report card...

This is what I'm hoping is sort of happening in this prof's mind - that his stereotype is being chipped away. It may be unlikely since the prof has chalked my guy's "smarts" up to being an anomoly due to living on a farm. :glare: That, alone, seems strange since most stereotypes don't have farmers "high" acadmically except in relation to actual farming.

 

 

The acknowledgment of your sons "leet skillz", buried in this professor's diatribe, are what struck me reading it. The professor could not escape that your son is "as good at science as he is" and "a natural at science". I guess I am the sort who would be sending my kiddo a t-shirt that read "Homeschooled Farmboys are Good at Science". But, then again, I sometimes lack the desire to take seriously those who take themselves and their distorted paradigms too seriously.

 

:lol: My guy actually does work/study to be good. He's not someone who reads once and totally grasps (or memorizes) something. He is someone who will keep at it until he understands (concepts) and that is what makes him good. He's determined to understand. He's also good at taking those concepts and applying them to anything else, but all three of mine tend to be good at that. It's how we raised them (perhaps coupled with natural ability). Maybe that's where the farm part comes in? I'd like to think mine would have been the same even if we'd kept living in the city, but maybe I'm wrong? Perhaps all those barn and fence fixing chores are where they learn to make connections?

 

If there's one question I'm burning to ask the guy it's that one. Middle son doesn't know how/why farming was the key. That came without explanation and came at the end when he was being shuffled out (shortly after the homeschooling revelation).

[Susan in TN]

:grouphug: Hopefully this professor will stop to think a minute about his attitude and the silliness of what he said to your ds. Cudos to your ds - he sounds like a top-notch guy.

[creekland]

 

Having grown up on a farm (cows, vegetables, and bees), and having chickens and a garden now, I will say that life is one big nature study without any effort on the parent's part. I did find, in college, that I had a natural understanding of the world that people who grew up in the city lacked. And I had lots of common-sense experiences that were part of life. Not to say, of course, that people who don't grow up on a farm are doomed to fail at science :huh:

 

Ok, this actually makes sense. I probably didn't "get it" because both hubby and I also grew up on farms so it all seemed natural to us. However, when youngest was taking his Plant & Animal Science class at our high school he continually came home with tales of "basic" things the other students didn't know. I reminded him that he'd had plenty of opportunities to learn those things and others probably didn't. I was thinking more of our travels (plenty of state and national parks + outdoorsy things), but his "natural" upbringing on a farm would have contributed too.

 

And, of course, this mostly relates to Bio - at the large level and probably some Physics/Mechanics. It wouldn't have a thing to do with microscopic/cellular level without extra supplementing.

 

At both the rural school I went to (good public high school) and the one I work at now (average public high school), the future farmers aren't usually our highest academic kids. Some do go to college for Ag related majors and some opt for something else, but many just stay on the farm. They can be behavior problem kids as few see a need for school outside the Tech Ed areas - and their parents tend to be ok with that. Not all are behavior problems, of course. Most do have a good bit of "common sense" or "practical sense" when it comes to working with things - can't always say that for working with people, but then again, that varies. Some are real gems (not sarcastic).

[texasmama]

I'm sorry. How very frustrating. (off to get a pig and some goats so my kids aren't doomed to fail at science...)

[Handmaiden]

Creekland, I'm so sorry to hear about your son's experience. I think many of us have encountered people who are not fans of homeschooling, but they tend to be more subtle and not outright antagonistic. Unfortunately, that professor's attitudes may never change, but I bet your son will be a much stronger and wiser guy for the experience.

 

We had two recent unexpected experiences ourselves.

 

I recently took my 7th grader to a new doctor, and when she said that she was homeschooled, he asked her what she was studying for science. Throughout the entire exam, he kept quizzing her on physics questions! She doesn't do well under pressure, and science is not her strong suit, so my poor girl kept stammering, "I can't remember"..."I'm not sure." He kept looking over at me, and I could only imagine the thoughts going through his head. I kept thinking, sheesh, give my girl a break! She's used to getting quizzed by grandma, but her doctor?

 

The other incident involved my older son, who was interviewing for a spot in a research lab this summer. In the days leading up to the meeting, my son and I had done a little role playing to practice for the interview. I knew that the head scientist/lab director had gotten his PhD from a top 5 research uni, so I wanted ds to be prepared for anything, including questions about homeschooling. I wasn't sure what kind of bias (if any) he might have against homeschooling. During the interview, the director asked ds which high school he attended. Ds said, "I'm homeschooled," to which the director looked at me and said, "Oh, we want to do that! I have lots of questions!"

 

I hope your son encounters encouraging advocates just like this scientist!

[creekland]

 

We had two recent unexpected experiences ourselves.

 

 

Those were quite the differences in experiences! I'm glad to read of the latter. My guys also encountered the quizzers, but fortunately, those sorts of things never bothered them and they usually put the questioner to shame by going into far more depth than expected. It was cute to watch and gave my guys a bit of confidence. They weren't ever good with popular music or TV shows though. I also remember my youngest feeling left out when he didn't know what a Tic Tac was. Santa brought him some that Christmas.

 

Most teachers at school tend to be rather anti-homeschooling, but have come around (some) after seeing the results mine had. Some are even considering it for their own now. Others have at least learned there are differences in the stereotypical homeschooler (as in, there really isn't a stereotype). The problem at school is we often get those whose parents didn't do much with them and they are very behind - or those who are using homeschooling as an excuse to escape truancy. However, there have been others (besides mine) who do well, so we're slowly chipping away the carved in stone stereotype.

 

I'm hopeful that the prof in this incident will have a little notch taken out of his stone. We may never know, but those who come behind us could benefit - just as we have from those who blazed the way before us.

[Kareni]

creekland,

 

I'm sorry that your son had this experience. How frustrating for him.

 

 

Anyway, she had to ask the teacher what a pair of pliers were because she had no idea.

 

I'm reminded that I once played a game of Pictionary and had to pass on my turn. I had no idea what an adz was and thus had no clue how to draw one. (Given that my ants often looked like cows, perhaps I could have drawn anything ....)

 

Regards,

Kareni

[creekland]

I'm reminded that I once played a game of Pictionary and had to pass on my turn. I had no idea what an adz was and thus had no clue how to draw one. (Given that my ants often looked like cows, perhaps I could have drawn anything ....)

 

Regards,

Kareni

 

I'll admit to having to google adz... and I am extremely artistically challenged. Living on a farm doesn't magically help some things. I wish it did!

[Handmaiden]

 

Those were quite the differences in experiences! I'm glad to read of the latter. My guys also encountered the quizzers, but fortunately, those sorts of things never bothered them and they usually put the questioner to shame by going into far more depth than expected. It was cute to watch and gave my guys a bit of confidence.

 

Yes, and I meant to add that our experience with the doctor was merely an annoyance and not on the same level as your son's. I'm still shaking my head at that professor's ignorance. Maybe he'll come around when your son wins the Nobel Prize. :thumbup1:

[Miss Marple]

Yes, and I meant to add that our experience with the doctor was merely an annoyance and not on the same level as your son's. I'm still shaking my head at that professor's ignorance. Maybe he'll come around when your son wins the Nobel Prize. :thumbup1:

 

 

What a great article! It is especially good to read for those of us with late bloomers and/or students who think and learn "outside the box" (or in my case, the student who doesn't even know that a "box" exists)

[Nan in Mass]

We wondered if my son's science prof was anti-homeschooling this year. She picked his work apart with a fine tooth comb, insisting that every single step be done her way even if he got the answer right, insisting that his labs be written up just exactly right. She was much tougher on him than she was on the other students. He is one of her better students, but not the best in the class and she isn't as picky with either the better students or the worse ones. Just him. As the semester went along, we noticed that she spent much more time grading his work and began to think maybe it wasn't such a bad thing. She gave him much more feedback. He has her again this semester. Same story. We are quite sure it isn't a bad attitude towards homeschoolers that is the problem. We think now that his age is the problem, and that "problem" isn't the right word for it. We think that probably she realized very early on that for him, she is a HIGH SCHOOL science teacher, that he has very little experience with ANY science classes, and that he was going to go to university next year for engineering with very little other than her class for formal school experience. She isn't trying to fail him or prove that his previous education was bad. On the contrary, she is doing her very best to ensure that he will be able to handle engineering school. When my son told her that he was accepted to his first choice college, she said, "That is a very good school. You will be fine. You will find you are well prepared." She comes from a culture that has no problem criticizing students and my son didn't act like a typical American student. He did a fair amount of grumbling at home but he was respectful in class and buckled down and put hours into getting things just so for her. We think maybe she wouldn't have bothered if she hadn't thought he had been prepared well enough at home to be was worth her time and if she hadn't thought he was going to cooperate. Hopefully my son learned something about not assuming anything where there is a cultural difference.

 

Not that I'm comparing this situation to your son's, Creekland. It's totally different. I'm just sympathizing because we thought we were dealing with a similar situation, one which looked likely to impare my son's ability to get into engineering school. You feel so besmirched when something like that happens.

 

Nan

[Handmaiden]

 

What a great article! It is especially good to read for those of us with late bloomers and/or students who think and learn "outside the box" (or in my case, the student who doesn't even know that a "box" exists)

 

It encouraged me too, as I have an out-of-the-box thinker. I especially liked the overall message that we can rise above the faulty judgments of others and go on to accomplish great things!

[creekland]

Yes, and I meant to add that our experience with the doctor was merely an annoyance and not on the same level as your son's. I'm still shaking my head at that professor's ignorance. Maybe he'll come around when your son wins the Nobel Prize. :thumbup1:

 

Oh, I don't think my guy will win the Nobel Prize (love the guy who did!), but I guess one never knows esp if he ends up in research. I will say that this son started off in learning support and speech therapy when he was in K - 2nd. He couldn't say more than half the letters and couldn't read words like "was" even when it appeared 3 times on the same page of a kid's book. He had his internal work ethic even back then and became one of their few graduates (most stay in it) impressing his teachers. He went from lowest in the class to highest once it clicked (it took some time - not overnight.) He never looked back. I'll admit to being jealous of him at times - and proud at the same time.

 

My youngest is an outside the box thinker who often wonders why there is a box. He could end up changing part of the world... but it won't be shown by high scores on the SAT/ACT. I'm proud of him too. ;)