Ask a Pagan Thread

[Wildcat]

Hmm, I don't know that I'm ready to embrace the term "pagan" just yet, it seems so vague so I don't mean to co-op, but I think it's a pretty inclusive term, and it might embrace me. :)

 

I can relate to what Rosie and Delany are saying, so perhaps I can offer my perspective too.

 

I don't believe in gods. I don't believe in Satan or angels or demons--not in the way I did when I was a Christian, as "real" beings.

 

I believe in the power of ideas. People sometimes love and are sometimes terrified and sometimes a big of both. Let's use Jesus for instance, because most of the religious people on this board are Christians. Their idea of him can give them strength, weaken them, give them courage they don't think they could have had on their own, etc.

 

Same for any of the various gods, supernatural beings, etc. These ideas are powerful because of how a person views them, not because they actually exist and intervene in people's lives. They choose to embrace these ideas because of the positive response they do when they focus on them. Even the negative aspects of these spiritual ideas. Even the idea of Satan. For instance, believing in Satan for Christians also empowers to believe in their god even more strongly. When they can identify the working of Satan (bad stuff), they can be happy to know that God is also involved, and working for (good) on their behalf--and perhaps even more strongly since they are under attack by evil forces (ie even stronger good forces are on the way).

 

For me, I don't take courage, hope, etc. from beings like this, mostly because I don't think they exist. I suppose I could recognize them as powerful entities in my own life, in the sense that they could help me even if I don't believe in them literally. However, I don't like what belief in deities tends to do to people, communities, cultures, etc.

 

For my spirituality, I like nature.

 

I saved a trimming from my wedding bouquet, some ivy. It grows now in my bedroom. I nurture it and love it in a sense, and it's a symbol of my marriage. I tend it like I tend my marriage, in a way. When I take a moment and appreciate the ivy, I meditation on my marriage and my spouse and think how I can take care of it as well. I make "intentions" sometimes, when I'm with the ivy.

 

I have a flower bulb I received when my first child was born. It's reminiscent of her name. When I tend to it, it's an extension of my love for my children. It helps me remember my relationship to my children. I tend them. I nurture them. I help them to grow.

 

I love rocks. I always have been a rock hound. I've collected rocks from the many countries I've visited and have a little collection of them arranged prettily. Sometimes I can sit an admire them and remember the places I've been, and experiences I've had and the people I've met in those countries, and I allow myself to be grateful for such an interesting universe with so many people. . .and so many rocks.

 

I enjoy the seasons. The "turning of the wheel" I guess. I appreciate when the earth goes to sleep in the winter and wakes up in the spring, and flourishes in the summer, and turns all dozy in the autumn. I like to recognize them by feeding the birds in the winter, hummingbirds and butterflies in the summer.

 

When I look around in nature I feel connected and I feel camaraderie. I'm connected to this wonderful nature, and it's connected to me, and we're all a great web.

 

I can let it pass without thinking about it, and I do sometimes.

 

Or I can take time to reflect, recognize, engage with nature in ways that are meaningful to me (rituals like planting, canning, meditating, creating pretty landscaping or "altars" in my yard). Some people like more of this. They have highly developed rituals and tools. I don't.

 

I wonder if this is why lots of Pagans don't have "religious" communities. What's meaningful to one person isn't necessarily meaningful to another.

 

I have a little bag that I've crocheted and beaded, it's filled with tiny stones and I sometimes go through before I sit to write. I hold them and remember where I got them. I stroke them. Some make me feel very happy, their texture, or their temperature, or the memory of how I came by them. No one is going to have the same response to them that I do.

 

Some people enjoy the stars and planets and feel connected and have rituals regarding them. I don't. It's just not meaningful to me.

 

So, even if you're a religion that doesn't believe in these ideas--you can see that they're actually powerful to some people. Similarly, I see the ideas of deities as being powerful.

 

They're not powerful of themselves, rather it's how we interact with these ideas, how we let them change us, and how we use them that are powerful.

 

At least, that's my perspective as a possible-Pagan. :)

 

FWIW

 

 

That was beautiful.

[goldberry]

Oh, and one more question...how does paganism relate to what is commonly considered "practicing magic" - by which I mean spells and rituals calling on some outside power to perform some kind of action. Is that separate? Is that mostly wiccan?

[hillfarm]

I was thinking of an example of evil as more along the lines of entering an elementary school and killing a bunch of kindergarteners.

[SailorMom]

"Evil" comes from many places.

1. people with brain disorders that mess up their ability to feel empathy

2. Selfishness

3. indoctrination that by committing certain acts is actually a good thing, when most people believe they are an evil thing. (insert examples of religious genocide here.* People who murder and torture others because they're taught it's the "good" thing).

4. Genetics and upbringing (related to #1)

 

To me, each of these is extremely more likely than the story(ies) of Satan, and we actually have plenty of identifiable evidence that they are so.

 

Yep. This.

People used to try to say aliens built the pyramids or Stonehenge because man surely wasn't capable back then. In some ways this reminds me of various aspects of organized/revealed religions.

Many still try to say evil in the world is (as an example) Satan's fault. I think it is comforting to believe that humans (on their own) aren't capable of the great acts of evil that have been perpetrated against other humans. I think having an outside source of evil is reassuring in some ways.

[Ipsey]

Well mental illness combined with years of exposure to examples of violent behavior doesn't seem like such a stretch to me. What makes one person snap and another isn't easy to explain, but it doesn't mean there is no explanation. In the case you are talking about guns were easily available and he knew how to use them from years of being trained on how. That could have been one of the factors that pushed him over the edge.

 

Yep.

It doesn't take a Satan.

Mental illness, the fact that he had trained his mind to kill, estrangement from people etc.

We don't have to jump to an external supernatural explanation.

[Ipsey]

Yep. This.

People used to try to say aliens built the pyramids or Stonehenge because man surely wasn't capable back then. In some ways this reminds me of various aspects of organized/revealed religions.

Many still try to say evil in the world is (as an example) Satan's fault. I think it is comforting to believe that humans (on their own) aren't capable of the great acts of evil that have been perpetrated against other humans. I think having an outside source of evil is reassuring in some ways.

 

 

You bet.

The possibility of a scapegoat is very reassuring in some ways. And it's simple.

"The Devil made him/me/you do it." :)

[TheReader]

Yup, that about sums it up for me. :) There's also a story of the death and rebirth of the God that goes along with it, though I've always taken it metaphorically, not literally.

 

If you want to do more research on this yourself, google "sabbats."

 

 

thank you! did google, and that was some very interesting reading. I will probably read more, as it really fascinates me.

[FLDebbie]

Oh, and one more question...how does paganism relate to what is commonly considered "practicing magic" - by which I mean spells and rituals calling on some outside power to perform some kind of action. Is that separate? Is that mostly wiccan?

 

 

I'm not able to answer your question, but the bolded part makes me think this is what many religions have. For example, the Catholic church is steeped in rituals, and isn't that to ask God for something (peace, forgiveness, a new toy (if you're a kid praying))? I've seen some people around where I live think the pagans are devil worshipers when perhaps their rituals are perhaps just their form of prayer (or whatever each individual wants to call it).

[DragonFaerie]

Okay, I'm going to jump in the pool here, too. I consider myself a Pagan. To me, Pagans try to live in harmony with nature. I consider myself a Wiccan witch. I follow the Wiccan Rede and believe in the tenets of Wicca as a religious belief system. I also try to live in harmony with nature and draw on the energies of the world around me as a witch (the way I choose to live my life). I believe (I don't say "we" because there are so many flavors of Paganism) in the importance of caring for our environment, respecting animals and nature and Mother Earth. I believe in balance in all things; light and dark, good and bad, male and female. As such, I believe in a God and a Goddess, the masculine and feminine aspects of the Deity. I do not believe in Satan, nor do I believe that the God and Goddess are pure goodness. I think they have balance just as most people have balance. The God and Goddess have different characteristics and energies that balance one another.

 

Rituals are a way of drawing on the energies of the world around us. Every living thing has energy, and rituals help to draw in that energy, to combine it with our own, and use that energy to create changes in our own lives. Only in ourselves. I follow the Wiccan Rede, "An it harm none, do what ye will." I would never seek to change someone else. I can only control myself. To do a ritual, I would set up an altar with various herbs (usually in the form of incense), stones, and candles in particular colors, all chosen based on the properties of their energy (making sure those properties suit whatever my intentions are), and then use those energies with my own and asking for the energy of the God and Goddess, as well, to help me make whatever changes I seek to make in my life.

 

One more thing, Wiccans and witches often spell magick with the 'k' to distinguish it from the Harry Potter variety.

 

Well, that's probably as clear as mud. ;)

[DragonFaerie]

I've always like this representation of the Wheel of the Year:

[DianeW88]

Thanks for starting this, Rosie!! As a member of a religion that is often misquoted and constantly has those who are not members of it telling us what we REALLY believe, I appreciate the opportunity to ask questions of those who do practice Paganism. I always believe that you should go to the source for honest answers, and when I'm more awake and coherent, I'm sure I'll have some questions for you.

[windmillmarie]

Okay, I'm going to jump in the pool here, too. I consider myself a Pagan. To me, Pagans try to live in harmony with nature. I consider myself a Wiccan witch. I follow the Wiccan Rede and believe in the tenets of Wicca as a religious belief system. I also try to live in harmony with nature and draw on the energies of the world around me as a witch (the way I choose to live my life). I believe (I don't say "we" because there are so many flavors of Paganism) in the importance of caring for our environment, respecting animals and nature and Mother Earth. I believe in balance in all things; light and dark, good and bad, male and female. As such, I believe in a God and a Goddess, the masculine and feminine aspects of the Deity. I do not believe in Satan, nor do I believe that the God and Goddess are pure goodness. I think they have balance just as most people have balance. The God and Goddess have different characteristics and energies that balance one another.

 

Rituals are a way of drawing on the energies of the world around us. Every living thing has energy, and rituals help to draw in that energy, to combine it with our own, and use that energy to create changes in our own lives. Only in ourselves. I follow the Wiccan Rede, "An it harm none, do what ye will." I would never seek to change someone else. I can only control myself. To do a ritual, I would set up an altar with various herbs (usually in the form of incense), stones, and candles in particular colors, all chosen based on the properties of their energy (making sure those properties suit whatever my intentions are), and then use those energies with my own and asking for the energy of the God and Goddess, as well, to help me make whatever changes I seek to make in my life.

 

One more thing, Wiccans and witches often spell magick with the 'k' to distinguish it from the Harry Potter variety.

 

Well, that's probably as clear as mud. ;)

 

 

 

This sounds exactly like my best friend. I remember staying at her house for a few days before I had kids and her grandmother had come over and cleaned her altar not knowing what it was for. I remember her trying to rebuild it and sort of re balance it (to take into account that she was a bit mad that her grandma had dumped her things but knowing it wasn't due to malice). She described it to me as exactly that- the herbs, stones, candles and each of the meanings.

 

One question- her altar is near a window and outside, she has a garden that is reflective of some of the things within her altar. She considers them two sides of a whole. Is that common?

[delaney]

Okay, I'm going to jump in the pool here, too. I consider myself a Pagan. To me, Pagans try to live in harmony with nature. I consider myself a Wiccan witch. I follow the Wiccan Rede and believe in the tenets of Wicca as a religious belief system. I also try to live in harmony with nature and draw on the energies of the world around me as a witch (the way I choose to live my life). I believe (I don't say "we" because there are so many flavors of Paganism) in the importance of caring for our environment, respecting animals and nature and Mother Earth. I believe in balance in all things; light and dark, good and bad, male and female. As such, I believe in a God and a Goddess, the masculine and feminine aspects of the Deity. I do not believe in Satan, nor do I believe that the God and Goddess are pure goodness. I think they have balance just as most people have balance. The God and Goddess have different characteristics and energies that balance one another.

 

Rituals are a way of drawing on the energies of the world around us. Every living thing has energy, and rituals help to draw in that energy, to combine it with our own, and use that energy to create changes in our own lives. Only in ourselves. I follow the Wiccan Rede, "An it harm none, do what ye will." I would never seek to change someone else. I can only control myself. To do a ritual, I would set up an altar with various herbs (usually in the form of incense), stones, and candles in particular colors, all chosen based on the properties of their energy (making sure those properties suit whatever my intentions are), and then use those energies with my own and asking for the energy of the God and Goddess, as well, to help me make whatever changes I seek to make in my life.

 

One more thing, Wiccans and witches often spell magick with the 'k' to distinguish it from the Harry Potter variety.

 

Well, that's probably as clear as mud. ;)

 

Thank you for that explanation of where I find myself today. With the help of another wonderful board member I have finally found what makes sense to me and it is my astrological sign and my element(fire). It explains my personality, my preferences in most things, and my natural tendencies. It may sound strange to some but I have never been comfortable in the christian atmosphere. I never really believed anything I was singing or saying in all my years going to church as a kid. FINALLY I have made a connection and it feels really good. Tealight enchantments are a great source of comfort for me each morning. I have a long way to go discovering where I fit in with Wicca/ Witchery but I know I am on the right path for me.

[TheReader]

another Wheel of the Year question --- Rosie, you are Southern Hemisphere, right? so I totally understand shifting the festivals to be at dates that reflect the actual seasons down here, but does that impact, or how does it impact, moving Yule over? The reading (brief) I did this morning showed that Yule is also marking the end of the year/beginning of the new year; moving it to winter, it wouldn't be that anymore in the S. Hemisphere. Is that problematic? What do you do to compensate?

 

Or am I verging off into too much of a bunny trail?

 

 

Also, DragonFaerie, can you explain &/or link me to what IS meant by magick when used by Wiccans, Pagans, etc.? Obviously not the Harry Potter type (don't we all wish! LOL!) but....is it more than just the sense of "boy, that is really magical...." or something akin to what's been said about ideas having power, life/life force tying together all things, etc.? Or....clearly I'm not grasping it well, but I'd really love to understand it.

[DragonFaerie]

This sounds exactly like my best friend. I remember staying at her house for a few days before I had kids and her grandmother had come over and cleaned her altar not knowing what it was for. I remember her trying to rebuild it and sort of re balance it (to take into account that she was a bit mad that her grandma had dumped her things but knowing it wasn't due to malice). She described it to me as exactly that- the herbs, stones, candles and each of the meanings.

 

One question- her altar is near a window and outside, she has a garden that is reflective of some of the things within her altar. She considers them two sides of a whole. Is that common?

 

It is. Many witches/Wiccans will have their altar outdoors if they are in a location that allows for it. I'm not comfortable with that, so I do most things inside. Also, I prefer that no one touches any of my altar items or tools as they are charged not only with my energy but with the energy of purpose. Someone else would bring their energy into the mix and that doesn't work for me. I wear a necklace that is "me" and I don't let anyone touch it for the same reason. I don't want to carry somebody else's energy around with me.

 

Also, DragonFaerie, can you explain &/or link me to what IS meant by magick when used by Wiccans, Pagans, etc.? Obviously not the Harry Potter type (don't we all wish! LOL!) but....is it more than just the sense of "boy, that is really magical...." or something akin to what's been said about ideas having power, life/life force tying together all things, etc.? Or....clearly I'm not grasping it well, but I'd really love to understand it.

 

To me, real magick is what you can feel around you, the energy of nature and the universe, and using that energy to improve yourself and your life. It's akin to the power of positive thinking concept. If you've ever sat outside and could just feel the energy of nature humming around you, you know what I mean. Magick is using that energy to promote change.

 

There are many examples of this kind of magick at work. One of my favorite quotes by Henry Ford (I think) goes something like "Whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're right." That speaks to using the energy and magick within yourself to make things happen.

 

Also along those lines in Wicca is the Law of Three (karma). It basically says that whatever energy you send out into the world, you will also get back on yourself times three. So be careful wishing that negative things would happen to your awful co-worker because you are also drawing that same type of energy to yourself. But if you are a positive person, you will draw positive energy into your life.

[mommaduck]

 

Do you have to? I know bunches of Christians who have prayer corners. They are much the same thing. I know secular people who have a cork board where they pin inspirational sayings and such. Again, same thing. Apparently it's a fashionable idea. :p

Depending upon the type of Christianity, yes. There are those that insist that Catholic and Orthodox prayer corners are idolatry.

[nukeswife]

I have considered my self atheist for quite a while, but the more I search the more I feel I'm similar to Mergath. I feel that yes there is something bigger than me, but it's more of an energy of the universe. I don't feel it's a all knowing, all powerful being.

 

We've been following the wheel of the year for a little over a year now and started that because it was a way to help my family understand why we didn't celebrate christmas (lower case because they celebrate it in a secular way, you know santa, elves all that). To use solistice is so much more than a big red suited guy delivering gifts. It's a time to celebrate that the earth has made it through another cycle and that the bleakness around us will start to turn to the beautiful regrowth of the new spring.

 

We don't really have any rituals as many would think of them. We celebrate yule/winter solstice by lighting a candle and spending time with family saying what we hope for in the coming year. We celebrate Ostara as a way to welcome the spring and usually take the day to go out and do something in nature and enjoy the new budding plants etc. For summer solstice we usually enjoy a family trip to one of the fun places we can really only go at that time of year, and lastly for Samhain we go all out for this as it's our favorite holiday and give thanks for all we've gotten throughout the year and wish for a speedy winter.

 

As you can see we don't celebrate all the times on the wheel, but we are always evolving and I'm sure will add things as we grow in our family and beliefs.

 

Oh and lastly although I believe there are things in this world that cause evil acts, I don't believe in Satan.

[TheReader]

It is. Many witches/Wiccans will have their altar outdoors if they are in a location that allows for it. I'm not comfortable with that, so I do most things inside. Also, I prefer that no one touches any of my altar items or tools as they are charged not only with my energy but with the energy of purpose. Someone else would bring their energy into the mix and that doesn't work for me. I wear a necklace that is "me" and I don't let anyone touch it for the same reason. I don't want to carry somebody else's energy around with me.

 

 

 

To me, real magick is what you can feel around you, the energy of nature and the universe, and using that energy to improve yourself and your life. It's akin to the power of positive thinking concept. If you've ever sat outside and could just feel the energy of nature humming around you, you know what I mean. Magick is using that energy to promote change.

 

There are many examples of this kind of magick at work. One of my favorite quotes by Henry Ford (I think) goes something like "Whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're right." That speaks to using the energy and magick within yourself to make things happen.

 

Also along those lines in Wicca is the Law of Three (karma). It basically says that whatever energy you send out into the world, you will also get back on yourself times three. So be careful wishing that negative things would happen to your awful co-worker because you are also drawing that same type of energy to yourself.

 

thanks! yes, I get that. I've said often (in other conversations) (not here) that I have the ocean in my DNA, because the power of the ocean waves, on my soul, is just....wow. Definitely a meditative place for me, always. I don't know that it's the kind of using it for change that you mean, in that I only use the ocean/the power of the ocean to calm and focus and center myself, but I do think I understand what you're talking about.

 

thanks for answering my questions; it really helps me understand all of this.

[laundrycrisis]

 

I agree. And that's why I asked, because it's surprising to me (with my admittedly limited knowledge of paganism) that a pagan might perceive the ideas of "God" and "Satan" as ideas with power.

 

That the idea of "God" is powerful doesn't surprise me all that much, because I understand that pagans might believe in various gods and/or goddesses. But I figured pagans would probably dismiss the idea of "Satan". The concept of Satan seems to be mostly limited to monotheistic belief systems. So that does surprise me.

 

Jumping in here...

 

An idea has power when a lot of people respond to it in an emotional way, and it changes how they think about other things. "Satan" is such an idea.

[Juniper]

Can I ask a question about the Elements and how they relate to personality? Also, what does this have to do with Astrology? I know that is vague, but I am curious about those who know which they relate to and how that plays out in their path/practice. :)

[DragonFaerie]

 

thanks! yes, I get that. I've said often (in other conversations) (not here) that I have the ocean in my DNA, because the power of the ocean waves, on my soul, is just....wow. Definitely a meditative place for me, always. I don't know that it's the kind of using it for change that you mean, in that I only use the ocean/the power of the ocean to calm and focus and center myself, but I do think I understand what you're talking about.

 

thanks for answering my questions; it really helps me understand all of this.

 

You're welcome, and absolutely it is! You are using the power and energy of the ocean and your pull towards it to affect change within yourself, calming and focusing yourself. I feel the same way about water, especially rain and thunderstorms. My birth sign is a water sign, so that makes sense to me. Water is definitely *my* element, especially given its properties and energies (the emotions).

[laundrycrisis]

All life is one; we are all part of something bigger than ourselves, and this is what I refer to as "God," or "the Universe," or what have you. Energy/life force/call it what you like flows through all life and the world, and prayer and/or ritual and/or magic directs this toward a goal. We should do what makes us happy as long as we do not cause harm, and as long as we do our best to prevent harm to others from any source.

 

Beautiful !

[PinkInTheBlue]

Just a curiosity question here, too. Your element depends on when you are born like your astrological sign or you choose it by what resonates with you? If its when you are born I'm wondering what mine is and if my suspicion is true.

 

I was born mid-July. Any idea what I'd be? :)

 

Added: duh? After I posted I realized I should look it up for myself. Pretty much exactly what I would have guessed. :)

[DianeW88]

 

thanks! yes, I get that. I've said often (in other conversations) (not here) that I have the ocean in my DNA, because the power of the ocean waves, on my soul, is just....wow. Definitely a meditative place for me, always. I don't know that it's the kind of using it for change that you mean, in that I only use the ocean/the power of the ocean to calm and focus and center myself, but I do think I understand what you're talking about.

 

thanks for answering my questions; it really helps me understand all of this.

I have the same experience near the ocean. I love it. I find it to be a very peaceful and yet at the same time, powerful, place for me. I think deep thoughts when I'm there. LOL I also believe our connection with nature and the world around us (the natural world, not the mall) is something we all need. I believe it to be very centering. I have a hard time if I can't get outdoors and appreciate all the beauty we've been given. I also love celebrating the change of seasons and the gift that each one is. And since I have a bit of a Waldorfy bent (and I honestly don't know if there are pagan elements to Waldorf or not...nor do I care), we've had a nature table in our home since my kids were little. It's a place to put fresh flowers from the garden, pretty rocks, flowering tree branches, even a bowl of strawberries or lemons. I think having something from nature in your home is important. Now being a Christian, I feel that our world and creation is a gift from God to us, but I don't think everyone has to believe that. I believe strongly in the concept of eternal truth. Some things just are. And we all can experience that truth in different ways, but yet we all find meaning to our existence and to our lives through that truth. However we come to it. And now I'm rambling, so I'll shut up. :D

[delaney]

I can only comment on my sign and element. Fire and Sagittarius. I am persoanlly drawn to the color red and it is evident in my house. I painted my kitchen red with no second thought and also in my bedroom. I just recently changed it to gold and terra cotta. I cannot stand lighter pastel colors in clothing or house interiors. Fire calms me in the way some people are drawn to water. I LOVE candles and I can watch flames dance for hours and love to build fires. Not in a weird psycho way lol. I love the outdoors and crave to be outside after the cold winter months. My one child has the element of air as his element and I could have guessed that before I even looked into it. It really does ring true for all of us in my family. Colors we like, activities we enjoy.....and so forth. My water signs are drawn to water and have always been soothed by it. My fire kid always hated baths but loves heat and craves warmth through touch.

[delaney]

but yet we all find meaning to our existence and to our lives through that truth. However we come to it.

Yes Diane!!! That is why I feel like we are all searching for and living the same thing. We are just getting there differently.

[TheReader]

I have the same experience near the ocean. I love it. I find it to be a very peaceful and yet at the same time, powerful, place for me. I think deep thoughts when I'm there. LOL I also believe our connection with nature and the world around us (the natural world, not the mall) is something we all need. I believe it to be very centering. I have a hard time if I can't get outdoors and appreciate all the beauty we've been given. I also love celebrating the change of seasons and the gift that each one is. And since I have a bit of a Waldorfy bent (and I honestly don't know if there are pagan elements to Waldorf or not...nor do I care), we've had a nature table in our home since my kids were little. It's a place to put fresh flowers from the garden, pretty rocks, flowering tree branches, even a bowl of strawberries or lemons. I think having something from nature in your home is important. Now being a Christian, I feel that our world and creation is a gift from God to us, but I don't think everyone has to believe that. I believe strongly in the concept of eternal truth. Some things just are. And we all can experience that truth in different ways, but yet we all find meaning to our existence and to our lives through that truth. However we come to it. And now I'm rambling, so I'll shut up. :D

 

 

yes, this. I so agree with everything you wrote.

 

We don't have seasons where I live, but aside from that I could echo most of what you've said. we've always pulled nature in to be around us, though with boys that's been more of the rocks, bugs, sticks variety than the pretty flowers variety. ;)

 

I also think, and I hope this isn't stepping on toes, but as a Christian it's true *for me* that creation/nature points to those eternal truths --- for me, that's pointing to God/what I believe about God. Obviously for others, it's something different, yet each one is a valid, legitimate belief, and clearly a thing of beauty, each in its own way.

[Mergath]

For those who do not believe in Satan, do you believe in the concept of evil? If so, from what source does it originate? Should we work to combat it and how? To clarify, by evil I mean those humans who would intentionally terrorize, rape, torture or kill other humans or animals, especially those more innocent or defenseless.

 

I am a Christian, but IME, the closer I live with nature, the less I feel the need to mark its natural passage symbolically. Does that make sense? When we lived in the city, marking the seasons, etc was a really big deal to me. Now that I live on a farm, smack dab in the middle of it, I don't need rituals. I see the plants beginning to bud, I can smell the changes in the trees and earth, I hear different signs, I can observe which animals are now nesting and preparing to bear their babies. For me, it isn't a "celebrate the change today and tomorrow begins a new season". I see it more as a sliding scale. It never happens all in one day or at one special moment. (Sorry, just rambling here)

 

 

I've always found the idea of Satan a bit of a paradox. The Christians I've met are very adamant that God gives us all free will, but at the same time insist evil acts come from Satan. I've never understood why God would allow Satan to toy with people's minds in such a way that their free will is negated to some extent. My own personal belief is that evil is just a philosophical idea, and the bad things that happen have an infinite number of causes and reasons. Life is too complex for us to divide into "good" and "evil."

 

And many Pagans are in tune with nature that way, as well. For me, celebrating the Sabbats is a bit like the idea of birthdays. We of course notice all the tiny changes in our children throughout the year, but we still have birthdays as a way to outwardly celebrate another year of life. And, if life becomes so busy that we fall out of sync with nature, the Sabbats can serve as a reminder that draws us back.

[Marylou]

Rosie, Thanks for asking for questions.

 

From what I've seen of your previous posts you are respectful of others' thoughts and beliefs.

 

One thing I've been thinking about a lot lately is that I've noticed many pagan/atheists tend to say derogatory things about people of other faiths/worldviews (not just this forum~I think of Youtube comments and FB, etc.). Terms like whackadoodle, nutso, delusional, believing in "sky daddies" are very hurtful. Yet, when I read posts on "religious" threads, I don't see those people mocking or name-calling the atheists. (Of course there are religious people who say ugly things, but I just don't see it as a common occurrence).

[Mergath]

One thing I've been thinking about a lot lately is that I've noticed many pagan/atheists tend to say derogatory things about people of other faiths/worldviews (not just this forum~I think of Youtube comments and FB, etc.). Terms like whackadoodle, nutso, delusional, believing in "sky daddies" are very hurtful. Yet, when I read posts on "religious" threads, I don't see those people mocking or name-calling the atheists. (Of course there are religious people who say ugly things, but I just don't see it as a common occurrence).

 

 

People of all faiths (or none at all) have had their beliefs mocked or ridiculed on this forum. I think we tend to notice it more when it's our own faith being put down. Conservative Christians get called whackaloons. Pagans get called Satan-worshipers. Atheists get told they are immoral. That's why posts like this one are nice- they help dispel the aforementioned stereotypes.

[Ellesmere]

Rosie, Thanks for asking for questions.

 

From what I've seen of your previous posts you are respectful of others' thoughts and beliefs.

 

One thing I've been thinking about a lot lately is that I've noticed many pagan/atheists tend to say derogatory things about people of other faiths/worldviews (not just this forum~I think of Youtube comments and FB, etc.). Terms like whackadoodle, nutso, delusional, believing in "sky daddies" are very hurtful. Yet, when I read posts on "religious" threads, I don't see those people mocking or name-calling the atheists. (Of course there are religious people who say ugly things, but I just don't see it as a common occurrence).

 

 

I've seen and heard plenty of name-calling and mocking all around. It's not just atheists saying hurtful things.

 

I'm really glad Rosie started this thread and hope it stays on track. :)

[Marylou]

 

 

I've seen and heard plenty of name-calling and mocking all around. It's not just atheists saying hurtful things.

 

I'm really glad Rosie started this thread and hope it stays on track. :)

 

 

 

It is on track :)

[Juniper]

Another question....I am seeing that Wicca is more recent "denomination" of the wider pagan practice/path. How does one find information on nature based spiritual practices that pre-date this as well a Christianity?

[mommymilkies]

Oh, and one more question...how does paganism relate to what is commonly considered "practicing magic" - by which I mean spells and rituals calling on some outside power to perform some kind of action. Is that separate? Is that mostly wiccan?

 

I used to belong to a Pagan group and have read many books on the subject. I'm sure there are lots of people who do "spells" and call on Gods, but those are the minority. Im thinking of those fancy little spell books you get at Barnes and Nobles that are fairly hilarious. It's usually magickal work calling on energy inside you that is where "real" results come from. Sometimes people ask for aid from the elements or Gods, but hopefully with full knowledge of what they ask because of the threefold law (like the golden rule). It does tend to be more of a Wiccan thing, but it's no different than praying as a Christian, in some ways. Remember Pagan is a broad category. There are Pagans who are monotheistic, hard polytheistic, soft polytheistic, etc. and a huge pantheon from different cultures. There are pagans who entirely work with fae energy, pantheistic energy workers, and more varieties than would fit in this post.

[Plink]

I just realized that I have never thought about what the word Pagan means. I didn't even have any assumptions other than not-Christian. I know that sounds entirely ignorant, but it is true.

 

So taking my complete lack of knowledge into consideration, please forgive my very basic question: Is there a definite boundary between Atheist and Pagan beliefs? They are kinda' mixed up in my mind. Belief in evolution or the seasons doesn't really seem to be a belief in a higher power, yet that is what seems to be celebrated by Pagans.

[mommymilkies]

Another question....I am seeing that Wicca is more recent "denomination" of the wider pagan practice/path. How does one find information on nature based spiritual practices that pre-date this as well a Christianity?

 

 

That's difficult. Remember the winners write history, so much has been lost. And what was collected wasn't always unbiased information, and often propaganda. It also depends on which practice you are interested in. Many pagan cultures were in many ways absorbed into the church and you can find shreds of the traditions. And not all cultures kept written records. It's rather easy, however to find information on Greek and Roman beliefs before Christianity because they were highly literate. Same for Ancient Indian and Native American beliefs. Celtic beliefs have more recently been adopted by Pagans, but the records just aren't there for a complete understanding of their beliefs. Much was...put together by later anthropologists and pagan enthusiasts of the Victorian era. Not all of this has proven to be accurate, mind you.

[jar7709]

I just realized that I have never thought about what the word Pagan means. I didn't even have any assumptions other than not-Christian. I know that sounds entirely ignorant, but it is true.

 

So taking my complete lack of knowledge into consideration, please forgive my very basic question: Is there a definite boundary between Atheist and Pagan beliefs? They are kinda' mixed up in my mind. Belief in evolution or the seasons doesn't really seem to be a belief in a higher power, yet that is what seems to be celebrated by Pagans.

 

 

Athiesm is ONLY lack of belief in god/gods. Some Pagans identify as athiest (while some identify as a variety of theistic forms), but not all athiests identify as Pagan. I also suspect that some Christians/traditional religion define everything "not Christian" as "pagan", but that's not the way people who call themselves "Pagan" use it. IYKWIM. I don't call myself pagan (I am athiest) but I've had others call me pagan, intending it as an epithet.

[Ipsey]

I just realized that I have never thought about what the word Pagan means. I didn't even have any assumptions other than not-Christian. I know that sounds entirely ignorant, but it is true.

 

So taking my complete lack of knowledge into consideration, please forgive my very basic question: Is there a definite boundary between Atheist and Pagan beliefs? They are kinda' mixed up in my mind. Belief in evolution or the seasons doesn't really seem to be a belief in a higher power, yet that is what seems to be celebrated by Pagans.

 

 

Atheist just means not believing in a god. They don't have "beliefs" in common, really. We (I'm an atheist) don't have deities. That's the only thing that really unites us. Imagine a name for people who don't believe in leprechauns "Leprinots". What binds their system together? Nothing really. They just don't believe in leprechauns. Similar to atheists.

 

Pagans is more of a "we do believe this" sort of grouping. They might believe in gods or they might not. What binds them together is a naturalist outworking of spirituality in whatever form they prefer (this is my broad definition, ymmv).

 

Atheist and Pagan are not subsets of one another.

 

Even in this thread you can see that some Pagans are atheist, some believe in a duality, some believe in a conceptual universe-like god. Some believe in whole pantheons. Some are agnostic.

 

Mommywilkes (I hope I got your name right), gave a good summary :)

 

Yikes, I may have just muddied the waters.

[mommymilkies]

I just realized that I have never thought about what the word Pagan means. I didn't even have any assumptions other than not-Christian. I know that sounds entirely ignorant, but it is true.

 

So taking my complete lack of knowledge into consideration, please forgive my very basic question: Is there a definite boundary between Atheist and Pagan beliefs? They are kinda' mixed up in my mind. Belief in evolution or the seasons doesn't really seem to be a belief in a higher power, yet that is what seems to be celebrated by Pagans.

 

 

I don't know any Pagans who celebrate evolution. Lol. Even most Christians believe in evolution! And who doesn't believe in seasons? That'd be weird. Do you mean worship those things? Even then I've never known anyone to worship them, but to see them as part of a wonderful creation by spirit/gods/nature, etc. like Christians who see God's creation as beautiful, but not all there is to worship.

 

People tend to mean Wiccan when they say Pagan, but it means more correctly anything not from an Abrahamic religion, so you have Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, etc. as well as stereotypical "Pagan" beliefs. Atheists are not pagans in the technical sense of religion, since by definition, they do not hold beliefs in gods. I have never known atheists who call themselves pagan, but I have known agnostic pagans, pantheistic pagans, nature worshipping pagans, and god/gods believing pagans.

[Juniper]

That's difficult. Remember the winners write history, so much has been lost. And what was collected wasn't always unbiased information, and often propaganda. It also depends on which practice you are interested in. Many pagan cultures were in many ways absorbed into the church and you can find shreds of the traditions. And not all cultures kept written records. It's rather easy, however to find information on Greek and Roman beliefs before Christianity because they were highly literate. Same for Ancient Indian and Native American beliefs. Celtic beliefs have more recently been adopted by Pagans, but the records just aren't there for a complete understanding of their beliefs. Much was...put together by later anthropologists and pagan enthusiasts of the Victorian era. Not all of this has proven to be accurate, mind you.

 

 

 

I understand...even if I wish it were otherwise.:D

My family originates in France and I have always been curious about what it was like there Pre-Christianity. I know that it would technically have been a mix of Celtic and Germanic cultures, but what does that look like? (more redundant than really expecting and answer ;) )

[momto2Cs]

All life is one; we are all part of something bigger than ourselves, and this is what I refer to as "God," or "the Universe," or what have you. Energy/life force/call it what you like flows through all life and the world, and prayer and/or ritual and/or magic directs this toward a goal. We should do what makes us happy as long as we do not cause harm, and as long as we do our best to prevent harm to others from any source.

 

 

This resonates with my own personal beliefs. I do think we are part of something bigger, a web if you will. And that there is a constant flow of energy that we can direct to some degree. As far as not causing harm, one of the chief tenets of Paganism/Wicca is to harm none.

 

I don't believe in gods. I don't believe in Satan or angels or demons--not in the way I did when I was a Christian, as "real" beings.

 

I believe in the power of ideas. People sometimes love and are sometimes terrified and sometimes a big of both. Let's use Jesus for instance, because most of the religious people on this board are Christians. Their idea of him can give them strength, weaken them, give them courage they don't think they could have had on their own, etc.

 

Same for any of the various gods, supernatural beings, etc. These ideas are powerful because of how a person views them, not because they actually exist and intervene in people's lives. They choose to embrace these ideas because of the positive response they do when they focus on them. Even the negative aspects of these spiritual ideas. Even the idea of Satan. For instance, believing in Satan for Christians also empowers to believe in their god even more strongly. When they can identify the working of Satan (bad stuff), they can be happy to know that God is also involved, and working for (good) on their behalf--and perhaps even more strongly since they are under attack by evil forces (ie even stronger good forces are on the way).

 

I enjoy the seasons. The "turning of the wheel" I guess. I appreciate when the earth goes to sleep in the winter and wakes up in the spring, and flourishes in the summer, and turns all dozy in the autumn. I like to recognize them by feeding the birds in the winter, hummingbirds and butterflies in the summer.

 

When I look around in nature I feel connected and I feel camaraderie. I'm connected to this wonderful nature, and it's connected to me, and we're all a great web.

 

I can let it pass without thinking about it, and I do sometimes.

 

Or I can take time to reflect, recognize, engage with nature in ways that are meaningful to me (rituals like planting, canning, meditating, creating pretty landscaping or "altars" in my yard). Some people like more of this. They have highly developed rituals and tools. I don't.

 

I wonder if this is why lots of Pagans don't have "religious" communities. What's meaningful to one person isn't necessarily meaningful to another.

 

They're not powerful of themselves, rather it's how we interact with these ideas, how we let them change us, and how we use them that are powerful.

 

 

I don't have highly developed rituals either, yet my husband does. It is very personal in the way wechoose to connect with nature, etc. I do very much appreciate the turning of the wheel - I like to feel in tune with the natural world, and taking time to connect with it, to notice the changing of the seasons, is comforting.

 

I do attribute a lot of what Christians would refer to as God or Jesus's influence to personal energies, and the power of ideas, just as others have explained on this thread. I don't belive in Satan, but I do believe in the idea of negativity, and yes, evil. Some evil is due to mental disorders, some is due to free will, or even, unfortunately, being influenced by others. Positive enrgy and ideas can be much the same way... I can admire someone who dedicates their life to helping others, regardless of what their personal religoous aspirations are.

 

I love this thread. One of the most important aspects of a respectful discussion like this is that it helps everyone lay aside their preconceived ideas about others. I think that if we had an "Ask a Buddist or ask a Protestant or ask an Atheist, or ..." whatever thread, what we would find is that regardless of which worldview system we were raised in, we were badly misinformed about all of the other worldview/faiths and that general terms are, exactly that, really very general. I know that for dh and I, we are stuck with the moniker "Protestant" and yet it does not describe us at all. We don't even fit the criteria really. We have a belief range within Christianity that includes some Orthodox/RC elements as well as some typically Protestant elements, but the blend is so significant that we don't really have a faith home that could be described as anything except maybe "Jesus follower."

 

 

Yes to this!

 

 

so, the wheel of the year would include things like celebrating the equinoxes, etc? changing of seasons, all of that? or is there more to it than that?

 

 

We (our family) celebrate the season changes (Spring Equinox = Ostara; Summer Solstice/Midsummer, Fall Equinox, also called Mabon; and of course the Winter Solstice, or Yule), along with other traditional Sabbats, including Samhain, which is essentially the ending/beginning of the Wheel; Imbolc (Feb 2), which is about the lengthening days, the returning of the light (Groundhog day!); Beltane, the celebration of spring's fertility and richness; and of course the harvest celebrations, including Lammas in August. You can learn a lot more about these just by googling "Sabbats" or "Wheel of the Year".

 

For those who do not believe in Satan, do you believe in the concept of evil? If so, from what source does it originate? Should we work to combat it and how? To clarify, by evil I mean those humans who would intentionally terrorize, rape, torture or kill other humans or animals, especially those more innocent or defenseless.

 

I am a Christian, but IME, the closer I live with nature, the less I feel the need to mark its natural passage symbolically. Does that make sense? When we lived in the city, marking the seasons, etc was a really big deal to me. Now that I live on a farm, smack dab in the middle of it, I don't need rituals. I see the plants beginning to bud, I can smell the changes in the trees and earth, I hear different signs, I can observe which animals are now nesting and preparing to bear their babies. For me, it isn't a "celebrate the change today and tomorrow begins a new season". I see it more as a sliding scale. It never happens all in one day or at one special moment. (Sorry, just rambling here)

 

 

Yes, I believe in evil, see above.

 

I also appreciate and quietly celebrate the changing of things on a more gradual scale than a one day celebration. However, my children enjoy the day of celebration, marking those changes, as well!

 

Okay, I'm going to jump in the pool here, too. I consider myself a Pagan. To me, Pagans try to live in harmony with nature. I consider myself a Wiccan witch. I follow the Wiccan Rede and believe in the tenets of Wicca as a religious belief system. I also try to live in harmony with nature and draw on the energies of the world around me as a witch (the way I choose to live my life). I believe (I don't say "we" because there are so many flavors of Paganism) in the importance of caring for our environment, respecting animals and nature and Mother Earth. I believe in balance in all things; light and dark, good and bad, male and female. As such, I believe in a God and a Goddess, the masculine and feminine aspects of the Deity. I do not believe in Satan, nor do I believe that the God and Goddess are pure goodness. I think they have balance just as most people have balance. The God and Goddess have different characteristics and energies that balance one another.

 

Rituals are a way of drawing on the energies of the world around us. Every living thing has energy, and rituals help to draw in that energy, to combine it with our own, and use that energy to create changes in our own lives. Only in ourselves. I follow the Wiccan Rede, "An it harm none, do what ye will." I would never seek to change someone else. I can only control myself. To do a ritual, I would set up an altar with various herbs (usually in the form of incense), stones, and candles in particular colors, all chosen based on the properties of their energy (making sure those properties suit whatever my intentions are), and then use those energies with my own and asking for the energy of the God and Goddess, as well, to help me make whatever changes I seek to make in my life.

 

One more thing, Wiccans and witches often spell magick with the 'k' to distinguish it from the Harry Potter variety.

 

Well, that's probably as clear as mud. ;)

 

 

Nicely said!

 

I've always found the idea of Satan a bit of a paradox. The Christians I've met are very adamant that God gives us all free will, but at the same time insist evil acts come from Satan. I've never understood why God would allow Satan to toy with people's minds in such a way that their free will is negated to some extent. My own personal belief is that evil is just a philosophical idea, and the bad things that happen have an infinite number of causes and reasons. Life is too complex for us to divide into "good" and "evil."

 

And many Pagans are in tune with nature that way, as well. For me, celebrating the Sabbats is a bit like the idea of birthdays. We of course notice all the tiny changes in our children throughout the year, but we still have birthdays as a way to outwardly celebrate another year of life. And, if life becomes so busy that we fall out of sync with nature, the Sabbats can serve as a reminder that draws us back.

 

 

I've always wondered about that apparent paradox as well. And yes, Sabbats are kind of like birthdays, or anniversaries!

[mommymilkies]

 

 

 

I understand...even if I wish it were otherwise.:D

My family originates in France and I have always been curious about what it was like there Pre-Christianity. I know that it would technically have been a mix of Celtic and Germanic cultures, but what does that look like? (more redundant than really expecting and answer ;) )

 

 

I hear you. I'm a history nerd and it just kills me to think of what is lost to time. *sigh*

[Elfknitter.#]

 

 

That's difficult. Remember the winners write history, so much has been lost. And what was collected wasn't always unbiased information, and often propaganda. It also depends on which practice you are interested in. Many pagan cultures were in many ways absorbed into the church and you can find shreds of the traditions. And not all cultures kept written records. It's rather easy, however to find information on Greek and Roman beliefs before Christianity because they were highly literate. Same for Ancient Indian and Native American beliefs. Celtic beliefs have more recently been adopted by Pagans, but the records just aren't there for a complete understanding of their beliefs. Much was...put together by later anthropologists and pagan enthusiasts of the Victorian era. Not all of this has proven to be accurate, mind you.

 

 

And then there's people like Gerald Garner who essentially created today's modern Wicca, drawing somewhat from the history of the culture and meshing it with occult science of his time.

 

To confuddle the Pagan mix some more, it seems reconstructionist hasn't been mentioned. There's those who seek to recreate the religion of the culture, sans modern "magick". Such as the Asatru who worship as the Vikings would have and not reinterpreted with modern meanings.

[Mom in High Heels]

For me, I believe in the power of self and the power of the universe, not a deity. There is a certain type of magic (not spell magic) all around us, all we have to do is look for it. We have to connect ourselves to the universe in whatever way we feel comfortable. I love the wind. While it can be cold and biting, it can also be cool and comforting or warm and soothing. We currently live in a very, very windy area, and I love to stand outside and just feel it brush around me. It makes me feel calm and sometimes powerful. I also love fire and candle light. They calm me. If I'm really stressed, I'll light a bunch of candles and turn off all the lights and just...be.

 

I don't believe in Satan. That's an easy out IMO.

 

I do believe in reincarnation. I think we have more than one time to experience this world. It seems rather useless for us to live one life and then poof, our existence is at an end. While we, as we know ourselves, will be gone, I think we bring some part of our former selves with us when we are reborn. It's not necessarily memories of our previous lives, but feelings and ideas.

[Onceuponatime]

I've always found the idea of Satan a bit of a paradox. The Christians I've met are very adamant that God gives us all free will, but at the same time insist evil acts come from Satan. I've never understood why God would allow Satan to toy with people's minds in such a way that their free will is negated to some extent. My own personal belief is that evil is just a philosophical idea, and the bad things that happen have an infinite number of causes and reasons. Life is too complex for us to divide into "good" and "evil."

 

 

 

 

I think the whole idea of evil coming from Satan is a result of the book of Job. Personally, I don't believe that things that can be attributed to natural causes are evil at all, just undesireable. However, I do think that people are quite capable of inventing real evil themselves, and that they do sometimes choose to do that. On the other hand, sometimes they are just ignorant, foolish, or mistaken and cause natural consequences.

 

One thing I know I believe in is the law of consequences. Consequences happen. Maybe not now, maybe not the way we expect or intend, but there are always consequences for every action. That is sometimes scary enough without a personification of evil.

[Plink]

 

 

I don't know any Pagans who celebrate evolution. Lol. Even most Christians believe in evolution! And who doesn't believe in seasons? That'd be weird. Do you mean worship those things? Even then I've never known anyone to worship them, but to see them as part of a wonderful creation by spirit/gods/nature, etc. like Christians who see God's creation as beautiful, but not all there is to worship.

 

People tend to mean Wiccan when they say Pagan, but it means more correctly anything not from an Abrahamic religion, so you have Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, etc. as well as stereotypical "Pagan" beliefs. Atheists are not pagans in the technical sense of religion, since by definition, they do not hold beliefs in gods. I have never known atheists who call themselves pagan, but I have known agnostic pagans, pantheistic pagans, nature worshipping pagans, and god/gods believing pagans.

 

 

Whoops. I guess I didn't phrase myself well. By evolution, I meant the connected-ness of life.

 

My ignorance is shining through.

 

On this thread I have read about rituals celebrating (not necessarily worshiping) nature, seasons, life, and cycles.

 

I guess my question is what differentiates this from the atheist belief in life moving on in its own rhythm without a deity. Is there a supernatural power assigned to nature or is this one of the maybe yes, maybe no parts of the Pagan system.

 

I am realizing just how varied the Pagan title is. Maybe that is why I am so confused.

[Juniper]

And then there's people like Gerald Garner who essentially created today's modern Wicca, drawing somewhat from the history of the culture and meshing it with occult science of his time.

 

To confuddle the Pagan mix some more, it seems reconstructionist hasn't been mentioned. There's those who seek to recreate the religion of the culture, sans modern "magick". Such as the Asatru who worship as the Vikings would have and not reinterpreted with modern meanings.

 

 

 

Are there good sources for the pre-reconstructionist Celtic and Norse beliefs and practices?

[jar7709]

Whoops. I guess I didn't phrase myself well. By evolution, I meant the connected-ness of life.

 

My ignorance is shining through.

 

On this thread I have read about rituals celebrating (not necessarily worshiping) nature, seasons, life, and cycles.

 

I guess my question is what differentiates this from the atheist belief in life moving on in its own rhythm without a deity. Is there a supernatural power assigned to nature or is this one of the maybe yes, maybe no parts of the Pagan system.

 

I am realizing just how varied the Pagan title is. Maybe that is why I am so confused.

 

 

I think I am confused by the bolded (maybe you are too?). That's not an athiest "belief". :)

[TheReader]

I think the whole idea of evil coming from Satan is a result of the book of Job. Personally, I don't believe that things that can be attributed to natural causes are evil at all, just undesireable. However, I do think that people are quite capable of inventing real evil themselves, and that they do sometimes choose to do that. On the other hand, sometimes they are just ignorant, foolish, or mistaken and cause natural consequences.

 

One thing I know I believe in is the law of consequences. Consequences happen. Maybe not now, maybe not the way we expect or intend, but there are always consequences for every action. That is sometimes scary enough without a personification of evil.

 

 

I would agree with this, for sure.

[Plink]

 

 

I think I am confused by the bolded (maybe you are too?). That's not an "athiest" belief. :)

 

 

It isn't? I thought Atheists believed in no deity.