Help me. Stuck in never-ending loop

[Oak Knoll Mom]

:grouphug: Have you looked into The Total Transformation course? It is for parents who have kids just like the ones you describe. I think joannqn has experience with it. You might want to send her a PM.

[TranquilMind]

:grouphug: Have you looked into The Total Transformation course? It is for parents who have kids just like the ones you describe. I think joannqn has experience with it. You might want to send her a PM.

 

Yes. I do like those materials but never got around to getting them. I think there was a book also, that I'd like to have, but it is never available on Amazon.

[sassenach]

I found this book VERY helpful.

[TranquilMind]

I found this book VERY helpful.

Read it, years ago.

 

There is little out there I have not read.

[ondreeuh]

My daughter is turning 17 tomorrow. Overall I would say that I did a great job with her - we were close, she could ask me for advice (and took it!). She has been having a really rough time lately and I made extra effort to hunt her down in her room and talk with her. The other day she brushed me off and told me she didn't want to talk. I didn't even say anything to dh but when he checked on her later, she told him that I always come up and bother her and stay too long. :( Now I feel like I totally screwed up and have lost her. Dh says it's not me, it's her. Teens have minds of their own. Sometimes now matter what you do to keep them close, they pull away. I guess it's part of the "asserting independence" thing. I think I was just lucky DD didn't really do it until her junior year.

 

So I am watching this thread, because I need the same advice about how to handle "personal attacks" that are not really about me.

[TammyS]

It won't, of course, fix all of your problems, but I will give you what I have found to be the most practical and useful pieces of advice in dealing with teenagers:

 

1. Utterly and completely ignore their attitude. They do have to obey, but they don't have to be happy about it. Griping at them about their attitude is picking a fight.

 

2. Use as few words as possible and don't be there when their reaction comes (ex. "Johnny, fold the laundry and put it away." "But Mom..." mom's back is facing him and she is already moving away...mom lets him continue to gripe and absolutely does not respond...he'll do it or he won't and a consequence will eventually be forthcoming, but she is NOT getting sucked into an argument about it).

 

3. Let them have the last word. We all want it; that's human nature. So let them have it. Having the last word doesn't change anything. (ex. After telling Johnny that he won't be given permission to use the car tonight, Johnny spouts off, "It's not fair! blah blah blah", mom shrugs noncommittally and is already turning her back to go and do something else while Johnny is busy loading another verbal cannon into his gun/mouth).

 

All three of these are basically about not allowing our pride (inner three year old) to get us into stupid arguments with dumb teenagers. It really is just a prideful thing to get into an argument with a teenager, because even when you win, you lose. The teenager is arguing because he's a three year old in a man's body. When we argue with his three year old, we are letting our own inner three year old take over our body. That is not a win for us as individuals and it's not a model for the teen, either. And I say this as someone who has failed at this A LOT. That is why I have learned to build a walking-away component into every interaction that is likely to be unhappily received.:grouphug::grouphug:

[TranquilMind]

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Edited October 20, 2012 by TranquilMind

[TranquilMind]

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Edited October 20, 2012 by TranquilMind

[claire up north]

First, let me give you a hug. :grouphug: Jeez...I don't blame you for being so despondent. This would wear on me in a BIG way!

 

I have two questions for you.

 

Do you think there is some mental illness at play here? Are you clinically depressed? Is one or both of your kids simply INCAPABLE of empathy?

 

My second question is this: why do they listen to you at all? What leverage do you still have over them? Is it the car, the computers, a place to sleep, a desire to connect at SOME level, guilt, what??

 

It seems to me that nearly everything hinges on answering these two questions honestly and accurately.

[TranquilMind]

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Edited October 20, 2012 by TranquilMind

[fischerl]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

I think you need to stop telling yourself (and others, like us) that you "screwed up somewhere" as if their horrid attitude is your fault. We ALL have screwed up, some of us more than others! You may be making it worse, and you are right to seek help and advice, but IMO the blame lies with them, and I'm praying they regret it immensely some day!

 

I agree with the poster who said something like "find something you like to do" and do it. Do you have a life apart from your kids? Fun times with DH or friends? Hobbies? Personal academic advancement? Travel plans? If not, I suggest you develop a "self" that does not include them and enjoy your life. I'm not saying to completely write them off—there is definitely still hope for your relationships, so don't completely check out—but get on with other things! It sounds like perhaps your identity is too closely tied to your relationships with your kids, and so you feel like crap because the relationships are crappy. Move on to other pursuits.

 

I just discovered John Rosemond's book, "Teen-Proofing". Perhaps you've already read it, but it might be worth another look. He teaches us how to be the adult (the "alpha" in the family) and has an extensive question-and-answer section that has several entries about disrespectful kids.

 

Please take care of yourself. Eat right, exercise (get in shape if you need to) dress nicely, do things you enjoy. Get the clutter out of your house. All these things help us to feel better about ourselves, and that translates to confidence in our relationships. And don't leave; that wouldn't really be fair to your DH. But military school sounds like a great idea!

 

Please keep venting here and let us know how you're doing.

 

:grouphug:

[Caraway]

We are talking about a 16 and a 13 yo right? If it were my kids there would be no computer and no leaving the house until behavior improved.

[elfgivas]

:grouphug:

 

pick one thing today to do for just you. nail polish, chocolate, a candle on the dinner table. just think about one thing you would like, and do it.

 

:grouphug:

 

and

 

call a councilor and ask for an emergency appointment. then tell them what you've told us. it will help a lot to have someone not in the middle of the situation listen you into finding a path forward.

 

you sound like a good person stuck in a bad situation. i am sorry you have to deal with it, especially when you are not feeling well.

 

:grouphug:

ann

[albeto]

Hey TM,

 

I'm sorry things are so rough with you guys right now. I would offer a hug, but I never know if it would annoy someone or not. I'll buy you a drink, however, if you'd rather. ;)

 

In any case, I hear ya. I was where you are a couple years ago, and then some, I think. What we did might not work for you, it might not be in your comfort zone, so I won't suggest it, but I will ask, What is your biggest goal here? If there is one thing from your relationship with your kids you could salvage, what would it be, and could you give up everything else for it?

[claire up north]

No, no mental illness, I am sure.

No, I don't think I am clinically depressed.

God, I hope not, to the third question. How could I know that? I would say no, looking back.

 

 

 

They like their Dad and he likes me.

 

I have to sign things still, as they are minors.

 

My name is on the deed, so yes, the nice cushy bedroom, complete with computer and nice furniture is a plus.

 

I don't know if there is a desire to connect, really, except I think probably everyone has that, deep down.

 

So, if there's no mental illness at play, then I would say that this is fair game for some serious remedial work.

 

Since they DO care about some things, I would totally use that leverage. You know your situation best, of course, so my ideas might not work. However, I would likely institute the following:

 

No computers or other screens.

No friends over.

No going anywhere. I'm talking about not even the grocery store.

 

(Because I'm who I am, even going to school would be in question. I'd rather homeschool again than live in the nightmare you describe, but that's just me.YMMV.)

 

None of those limits would be released until everyone was nice again. Not nice for a moment or nice for a day or even nice for a week. NICE. Deep down, nice. (That doesn't mean you can't have conflict, but it must be NICE conflict, KWIM?)

 

What would we be doing with all this time together?

 

Well, I'd have kids role play with me acceptable interactions once or twice a day.

 

We'd have family reading time, which meant everyone would grab a book of their choice, sit with me in the same room and read quietly for about an hour. This would let us be "together" without the nasty talk.

 

I might get a spiral notebook for each child so that we could write back and forth to each other. This would allow everyone to consider their responses rather than just fly off the handle. In this notebook, we would talk about specific things that concern us, or particularly fond memories of interaction. If kids seemed reluctant to write,I would ask them specific questions.

 

I would minimize interactions. I would write any expected chores down so that I didn't even have to say them. I WOULD NOT use this time to get more chores out of them. In fact, I might even offer some sort of "get out of this chore for free" token that the child could redeem (politely) with me and then I would do that chore for them.

 

I would offer to serve dessert after dinner if they would make it. Let them pick the dessert. You be in the kitchen cooking while they are there, too. Desserts are mighty valuable currency for MY kids, at least. They might not do it on day one, but they would eventually cave.

 

I would not talk much. I might even take a vow of silence for part of the day.

 

As the relationship starts to mend, I would start to express how important good relationships are to me, about my own hopes for them, about my own vulnerabilities. I would not start with this, though, because rejecting you will be their greatest weapon, and they will use it mercilessly if given the chance.

 

I would just say "We're doing this until we can get back on track as a family."

 

Please, let us know what you decide to do. I will be praying.

[Embassy]

First, they are still young, there is hope. I wish I was able to understand when I was having the troubles with my first (who did the same).

 

I am saying this very softly--

 

I was a lot like you. I was raised in a house that was the same. I didn't know how not to escalate-it was just the natural progression of the confrontation.

 

You have to unplug.

 

I will tell you a story about my first big aha on how to deal with this.

 

My oldest, 21 now, would go into a full blown rage, often. He was totally impulsive and would constantly hurt people, and I didn't know how t o deal with it when he was younger, so by the time he was older, it was a nightmare.

 

He had done something--I think that time it was that he was walking behind his sister's chair at dinner, and he bopped her in the back of the head, her face hit the plate and chipped her tooth. We were *furious*. It got mean, and nasty and ugly because at that point, it was the one thing more on top of all the other things he'd done...

 

In all that yelling and talking back, he had become an impenetrable wall. So, I had sent him to his room for a while, called him back out, and he sat there, slumped in his chair, with rage steaming off him.

 

I put my hand on his shoulder and told him that I *knew* it was an accident. And that I know he didn't mean it, and I know he is sorry...and just like that he broke down and started to cry. (it didn't fix everything but my light bulb went off)

 

He really has a soft heart. He is a sweet kid. He just was making really impulsive choices.

 

More anger does not work with angry kids. Punishment does not work. You're just stepping up their anger and self righteousness.

 

This is really hard for you, and I get that, because it was really hard for me. I am a tackle it head on person, I do not mince words, and I'm not afraid of a fight. I also ran a punitive household. One time obedience and all that.

 

It doesn't work. Especially when your kids are as strong willed as we are. ;) It becomes nothing more than a battle of the wills, and in that battle, we lose their hearts.

 

You need to learn a different way to communicate. You need to learn to ignore the dumb stuff they say to get a rise out of you, and you need to start to use humor.

 

It's hard because you just feel like that would be giving into them, and you feel like they don't deserve it--but we're not deserving of the grace we get either, are we?

 

Thanks for this. I have yet to reach the teen years and I think this approach will work well with my kids.

[Snow]

First, they are still young, there is hope. I wish I was able to understand when I was having the troubles with my first (who did the same).

 

I am saying this very softly--

 

I was a lot like you. I was raised in a house that was the same. I didn't know how not to escalate-it was just the natural progression of the confrontation.

 

You have to unplug.

 

I will tell you a story about my first big aha on how to deal with this.

 

My oldest, 21 now, would go into a full blown rage, often. He was totally impulsive and would constantly hurt people, and I didn't know how t o deal with it when he was younger, so by the time he was older, it was a nightmare.

 

He had done something--I think that time it was that he was walking behind his sister's chair at dinner, and he bopped her in the back of the head, her face hit the plate and chipped her tooth. We were *furious*. It got mean, and nasty and ugly because at that point, it was the one thing more on top of all the other things he'd done...

 

In all that yelling and talking back, he had become an impenetrable wall. So, I had sent him to his room for a while, called him back out, and he sat there, slumped in his chair, with rage steaming off him.

 

I put my hand on his shoulder and told him that I *knew* it was an accident. And that I know he didn't mean it, and I know he is sorry...and just like that he broke down and started to cry. (it didn't fix everything but my light bulb went off)

 

He really has a soft heart. He is a sweet kid. He just was making really impulsive choices.

 

More anger does not work with angry kids. Punishment does not work. You're just stepping up their anger and self righteousness.

 

This is really hard for you, and I get that, because it was really hard for me. I am a tackle it head on person, I do not mince words, and I'm not afraid of a fight. I also ran a punitive household. One time obedience and all that.

 

It doesn't work. Especially when your kids are as strong willed as we are. ;) It becomes nothing more than a battle of the wills, and in that battle, we lose their hearts.

 

You need to learn a different way to communicate. You need to learn to ignore the dumb stuff they say to get a rise out of you, and you need to start to use humor.

 

It's hard because you just feel like that would be giving into them, and you feel like they don't deserve it--but we're not deserving of the grace we get either, are we?

 

Yes, thank you. This is so great. It describes what I am learning now with my son and hope to fix before he become a teen. Printing this out!

[TranquilMind]

.

Edited October 20, 2012 by TranquilMind

[StartingOver]

Teens, clear out the whole room, leave some clothes, sheets and a bed. THAT IS IT !!! I mean everything, then make them earn it back. If they don't, then give it away. We are required by law to provide food, shelter, clothing, and medical care. All the other stuff is extra. I would remove it all for lack of respect. I did this with two of my children. My daughter dared to slam her door after, so I removed it from the hinges. Yeah, I can take a ton...... but don't tell me who cares, or that I don't care.

[TranquilMind]

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Edited October 20, 2012 by TranquilMind

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: No advice because my kids are still too young, but hang in there.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I don't see how punishment would help heal a relationship. Yes, you should insist that they treat you with respect in the sense that they may not be rude to you or abuse you. But you cannot legislate closeness or love. All you can do is model that. You do need boundaries to keep yourself from being abused. I would not provide anything for them that is not asked for properly. I would not stay to listen to abusive talk. At this point, I would want them to treat me with the kindness that they would treat a teacher or a stranger at a minimum. Beyond that, I would pray, make myself available and try to forge a relationship with each of them individually.

[justLisa]

What do you do that you enjoy? I mean for whatever reason they seem to be fine with you miserable, that is not ok. They need to see you enjoying life and doing things you like.

 

Carve out some time for hobbies. And since they don't care anyways, if you are involved with doing things you like and they need something from you, maybe they will be bothered by the fact that you sort of "moved on" from their attitude and decided to be happy on your own.

[TranquilMind]

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Edited October 20, 2012 by TranquilMind

[Guest]

:grouphug: I have not read all the replies and I don't have anything brilliant to add, but I am just sad and sorry that you hear, "nobody cares" and things of that stripe. It stings. I come to a point where I draw this conclusion myself and it certainly would hurt to hear others spell it out for me. :grouphug:

[justamouse]

I can't tell you how many times the door was removed in the past year. It didn't change anything, really. I know exactly what I am required to provide by law, but we get back into that punitive thing that simply justifies the behavior.

 

I just want a do-over, which I'm not going to get.

 

Or I need to disappear.

 

See, the taking the door off/ that type of stuff breaks the relationship down. It needs to be repaired.

 

People mock attachment parenting, but it's the way I parented # 2-7 and the difference is night and day.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I have used those exact words.

 

I also have asked if they would say that to Mr. X or Mrs. Y (people they know and respect). Um, no. So why think it is ok to say it to me?

 

:001_huh:

 

:grouphug::grouphug: I think it is time to stop asking them these kinds of questions. I know that you're trying to get them to think but right now they are using these kinds of questions as a means of giving you hateful answers, because after all, "you asked". So don't ask. Tell them. "You may not talk to me like that. You need to ask me with a please or a thank you and you need to answer my questions politely." If they do not ask politely then do not do (whatever) for them. If they do not thank you, then do not release hold of whatever it is you are giving them. If they do not talk to you politely then leave the room.

[Iskra]

I don't have teenagers yet, but I read this book a while back and really made sense and was very practical:

http://www.amazon.com/How-Talk-Teens-Will-Listen/dp/0060741260/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350690446&sr=8-1&keywords=how+to+talk+so+teens+will+listen+and+listen+so+teens+will+talk

[TranquilMind]

I don't have teenagers yet, but I read this book a while back and really made sense and was very practical:

http://www.amazon.com/How-Talk-Teens-Will-Listen/dp/0060741260/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350690446&sr=8-1&keywords=how+to+talk+so+teens+will+listen+and+listen+so+teens+will+talk

 

Got it. Read it recently. It was a good one.

[BigMamaBird]

Oh my gosh! I would hit the roof too.

 

Personally I'm not sure I could pull this off but it is something to consider. The next time a child wants a ride to an activity I would sigh and say, "I don't care," and then walk away. No ride. No extra money for _______. No special load of laundry washed just so they can have their team clothes washed, etc.

 

What goes around comes around.

 

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

I don't think I can hit the agree button enough. They're teens, it won't kill them to give them a dose of their own medicine. Go on Mommy Strike for a week and see how much they find out they care.

[NorthwestMom]

:grouphug::grouphug:

 

Honestly, I think you all need to go to family therapy at this point. Tomorrow! I sounds like you have tried many, many approaches. Unfortunately, it really sounds like your relationship is very damaged at this point and you are hurting SO much. :grouphug: There's not a lot of time left to get it back on track before your DD is old enough to leave home. I think you need an outside party to help rebuild your family. You deserve respect and love!

[Guest submarines]

What about this book? It applies attachment theory to older children and teenagers and gives practical advice on how to reestablish connection. You seem to be disconnected from them and depressed.

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[TranquilMind]

What about this book? It applies attachment theory to older children and teenagers and gives practical advice on how to reestablish connection. You seem to be disconnected from them and depressed.

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

I haven't read this one. Thanks.

 

And I certainly am disconnected and pretty down today.

Edited October 20, 2012 by TranquilMind

[LibraryLover]

:grouphug:

Edited October 21, 2012 by LibraryLover

[Desert Rat]

Thanks. No one ever hugs me. (Except spouse).

 

That helps.

 

This makes me so sad for you, TM. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[Liz CA]

Retraining. Collect a certain amount of money each and every time someone sasses you. They will be poor and you will be at your fave coffee shop scanning the menu. ;)

[TammyS]

 

Again, successful only occasionally. Griping is fine. Grumbling about how unfair it is, blah blah, doesn't bother me. Disrespect and contempt stops me in my tracks (inner De Niro soundtrack again).

 

 

I have seen you use the words disrespect and contempt quite a lot. I wonder if it would help to consider this:

 

Whether a person feels/thinks X about you only matters to that extent that you value their opinion about that thing.

 

If I want to have someone evaluate my cooking skills, I ask someone who knows how to cook at least reasonably well. I don't ask my two year old, he doesn't know enough to have an opinion.

 

I know it's all very hurtful, and I am so very, very sorry for your hurt. But I wonder if you could be helped, somewhat, by putting your children's opinions about you in their proper perspective. SHOULD you, in fact, be giving any weight to their opinion? Ask yourself, very seriously, if you wanted some serious feedback about yourself, who are five people in your life that you would ask? Do those kids belong on the list?

 

If you have done something to earn that disrespect and contempt, then you need to deal with that by apologizing and making amends. But if you haven't, maybe you shouldn't swallow the pile of sh*t they are trying to shove down your throat just because they want to be hurtful.

 

And, maybe, consider that....as much as it hurts you, they really and truly do NOT understand how much it hurts you. They know it hurts, sure, but they have NO IDEA how much. They CAN'T know. They won't ever know until they have children of their own. Don't give them more power by being more wounded than they can even imagine.:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

I am really, really sorry you are going through this. It hurts my heart for you.

[Jen500]

No advice but :grouphug:.

[TammyS]

Can I also suggest, by way of a self-care treatment that I think you desperately need that ASAP you take a weekend and go somewhere alone? It doesn't have to be super expensive. Even a hotel in a nearby town for a couple of nights to let you be alone and decompress I am certain would be wildly helpful.:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[TranquilMind]

Stand tall and remember they are nuts.

 

Today, I'm more lying in a fetal position (metaphorically speaking) and trying to remember that I'm not nuts.:tongue_smilie:

[TranquilMind]

Can I also suggest, by way of a self-care treatment that I think you desperately need that ASAP you take a weekend and go somewhere alone? It doesn't have to be super expensive. Even a hotel in a nearby town for a couple of nights to let you be alone and decompress I am certain would be wildly helpful.:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

I'm planning on spending Thanksgiving somewhere alone as it is. I have no idea where.

 

And I have some driving responsibilities right now. My husband can't be everywhere at once.

Edited October 20, 2012 by TranquilMind

[TranquilMind]

They will be poor and you will be at your fave coffee shop scanning the menu. ;)

.

Edited October 20, 2012 by TranquilMind

[TranquilMind]

albeto; I'll buy you a drink, however, if you'd rather.

 

Only if it is coffee. I can't drink now. I haven't had a drink in 20 years. I should have not drunk back then and started now...

 

What we did might not work for you, it might not be in your comfort zone, so I won't suggest it, but I will ask

 

I think I have some recollection from other discussions. Remind me. I'm not in my comfort zone right now anyway.

 

If there is one thing from your relationship with your kids you could salvage, what would it be, and could you give up everything else for it

 

I'm not sure what you mean. "One thing I could salvage"... what does that mean? I'd like to still have a relationship; I'd like not to be "cut off", as is recommended all the time on this forum. I'd like to have the relationship I had with my Mom, but she was a better person than me. I've had other good things, I guess. Nobody gets everything. Maybe this is what I don't get.

[SunnyDays]

I wish I lived nearby so I could take you for a cup of coffee. :grouphug: You deserve a bare minimum of respect and appreciation.

 

I know only so much can be conveyed through the internet, but I hope you feel how much we all hurt for you and want you to feel better. :grouphug:

[Halcyon]

My kids are still young so have not experienced this sort of thing. Wanted to say my heart goes out to you.

 

Growing up, my sister was a nightmare. Disrespectful, said terrible things, the gamut. I was better in the sense that I did well in school and did my chores, but my attitude was not good. I certainly was never as mean as your children have been to you, but one thing strikes me. When I was a teen, a part of me got some sort of sick pleasure at KNOWING my mother was upset at my behavior. She rarely could pull off the "I don't care" thing, and I often knew full well how upset I was making her. In a sick way, this pleased me because it gave me some power over her. What I am trying to say is, perhaps your children enjoy having this power over you, and when you act upset and hurt, the power imbalance is strengthened, and your position is weakened.

 

It might help you, as others have suggested, to focus more on YOU right now. Exercise, get a puppy who loves you unconditionally, get a manicure, go out with friends. Demonstrate to them that there are people out there who DO love you, who DO respect you, and that YOU respect and love YOURSELF, and perhaps they will come to realize that their hateful attitude towards you DOESNT REALLY MATTER, because you love yourself and others love you too. And they too can be a part of that love, they too can partake of that relationship if they so choose. If not, their loss. You need to love yourself first, and treat yourself with the kind of respect and love that you want from them. You should also try to get together with girlfriends who care for you so you are reminded that you are indeed LOVEABLE.

 

 

:grouphug::grouphug:

[albeto]

Only if it is coffee. I can't drink now. I haven't had a drink in 20 years. I should have not drunk back then and started now...

 

Shoot, I forgot. Coffee it is.

 

I think I have some recollection from other discussions. Remind me. I'm not in my comfort zone right now anyway.

 

It's basically moving away from parent/child relationship to mentor/maturing person relationship.

 

I'm not sure what you mean. "One thing I could salvage"... what does that mean? I'd like to still have a relationship; I'd like not to be "cut off", as is recommended all the time on this forum. I'd like to have the relationship I had with my Mom, but she was a better person than me. I've had other good things, I guess. Nobody gets everything. Maybe this is what I don't get.

 

If the relationship is the most important thing, then let the requests go for now. Don't ask them to do things for you (or what they'll perceive as for you). It seems pretty obvious your kids are trying to hurt you on purpose. My question would be why? In my experience, people hurt other people when they feel they've been hurt themselves. It's a kind of "payback" mentality, or "revenge," or, if you will, "justice." What do you think would happen if you started to treat your kids like you would treat new roommates? Do you think they would feel less imposed upon? Do you think that would help them learn to trust you again? I don't mean to suggest you have imposed on them for years, but if they perceive it that way, then you can respond to that. You can respond by stepping back for the sake of their sense of security. If restoring the relationship is more important than them being compliant, then let that go. Make sense?

[Lang Syne Boardie]

... I'd like to still have a relationship; I'd like not to be "cut off", as is recommended all the time on this forum. I'd like to have the relationship I had with my Mom, but she was a better person than me. I've had other good things, I guess. Nobody gets everything. Maybe this is what I don't get.

 

I feel as if I'm understanding some of your other posts on the Cut-off Mom threads now.

 

:grouphug:

 

TM, I've been trying all day to think of something helpful to say and I have to just admit I don't know what you should do. Every solution I can think of to help heal your own heart is a step toward separation, not toward resolution. I can only think of coping methods to try to protect your own heart. None of those methods will draw your family toward you, though, so I don't think that's the right track.

 

I think the school situations sound OK. I disagree with those saying to bring them home and homeschool in a bid toward more togetherness. Not when you feel this defeated. Not when they are as old as 13 and 16.

 

You might have to hammer out a new relationship more like that between parents and adult children, not the same type of relationship as an authoritative parent with young children who have never reached these levels of disrespect. Kind of like Love and Logic, where you set your boundaries and live by them but outwardly give every appearance of not being emotionally invested at all...I know you've tried that but maybe that approach has not worked because you are still expecting your kids to be kids, as if they can revert back to sweetness after becoming so hard-hearted, when in their minds they have outgrown the nest and are not willing to play the role of the children of the family.

 

As long as you are wishing back the children they were, you are going to be disappointed. A new relationship can be forged that is better and that will last for the long haul, but none of you can go back in time.

 

But if you can't have your tender-hearted little children back, they also can't have a roommate and housekeeper who pays the bills and cooks the food...that they treat like dirt. Real life shouldn't work that way. It can't. The people we live with deserve to be treated kindly, and actions others do for us must be met with gratitude.

 

I think you need IRL counseling as a whole family, so that there is someone seeing the whole picture and holding your kids and DH accountable instead of this being something wrong with only you, that only you can and should fix.

 

I'd want to put my foot down with DH about that kind of counseling. I hear you that you've read all the books and tried all the methods with the kids, but how far have you gone in working on DH to back you up and get some help? (rhetorical question, not asking you to answer that aloud)

 

I doubt any of our advice has been all that helpful, but I hope it has helped to hear from so many who also find raising teenagers to be the hardest job in the world. I hope it has helped to hear from former teenagers who mistreated their parents but grew up to fix it all as adults.

 

And if that all failed, I hope it's helping just to talk about it.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

WOW.

 

Albeto was posting the same concept I was thinking of, exactly. And she said it more succinctly.

[Ruby Rose]

I'd set them up a tent in the back yard and make them live there until they learned a little respect! :grouphug:

[Leonana]

I'm sorry, TM. No advice, but here's another :grouphug: