What has happened to society?

[PeacefulChaos]

I don't know how this thread will do... I'm not trying to be controversial or stir the pot or anything, I'm just curious as to what others think.

It was brought up a bit in the gun thread, the differences in society years ago vs. today. Overall, society is not as safe as it was then - crime has gone up (violent crime, other crime too), we can't do the things that our parents and grandparents could (sending the kids out - back then pretty much everyone was a 'free range kid', weren't they? :lol: )

So I am just wondering what everyone's take is on why. What happened? What has changed? Why are things different?

I don't know that anyone has the right answer. I'm just curious as to what people think and think it would be interesting discussion.

:bigear:

[Barb_]

Violent crime has actually gone down in recent years. Our perception of it has increased thanks to the sensational 24 hour news cycle.

Hard Times, Fewer Crimes

[justamouse]

Violent crime has actually gone down in recent years. Our perception of it has increased thanks to the sensational 24 hour news cycle.

 

:iagree:

 

I have a good friend in homeland security. Yup, numbers have gone down. Cable news is bad for you. ;)

[SKL]

From what I've read, though, crime statistics have gone down. They just seem to be up because the media sensationalizes every incident.

[besroma]

Agreeing with others...

[Barb_]

Also this: Steady Decline in Major Crime Baffles Experts

 

Crazy, huh?

[Joanne]

I don't know how this thread will do... I'm not trying to be controversial or stir the pot or anything, I'm just curious as to what others think.

It was brought up a bit in the gun thread, the differences in society years ago vs. today. Overall, society is not as safe as it was then - crime has gone up (violent crime, other crime too), we can't do the things that our parents and grandparents could (sending the kids out - back then pretty much everyone was a 'free range kid', weren't they? :lol: )So I am just wondering what everyone's take is on why. What happened? What has changed? Why are things different?

I don't know that anyone has the right answer. I'm just curious as to what people think and think it would be interesting discussion.

:bigear:

 

Check your stats; the bold it not accurate.

 

I firmly believe that most kids in most neighborhoods CAN and SHOULD "go out and play."

 

I, for one, am glad that child, spousal, and sexual abuse are reported now whereas when I grew up, they were underreported.

[Barb_]

I, for one, am glad that child, spousal, and sexual abuse are reported now whereas when I grew up, they were underreported.

 

:iagree: It was always around. It was just unseemly to talk about it.

[marbel]

... we can't do the things that our parents and grandparents could (sending the kids out - back then pretty much everyone was a 'free range kid', weren't they? :lol: )

 

 

Is it that we can't do it, or we won't do it anymore? Maybe because 24/7 sensational news coverage has us all scared?

 

I don't know the answer. I am much more protective of my kids than my parents were of me.

 

(Though when I was a kid and we wandered the neighborhood, we knew all the neighbors, and the moms were mostly home during the day, keeping an eye out. That has surely changed, at least in my experience.)

[justamouse]

Also this: Steady Decline in Major Crime Baffles Experts

 

Crazy, huh?

 

Does it have to be baffling? Can they just be happily surprised? Baffles has this intonation that they're slightly disappointed.

[justasque]

Overall, society is not as safe as it was then - crime has gone up (violent crime, other crime too), we can't do the things that our parents and grandparents could (sending the kids out - back then pretty much everyone was a 'free range kid', weren't they? :lol: )

 

 

My parents' wartime childhood included bombings of their neighborhoods. If they were more free range than my children, it's partially because their parents had ever so much more on their plate than I do on mine. Add in today's medical advancements, and my children are much, much safer than their grandparents were as children.

[PeacefulChaos]

Ok - that definitely isn't what I was expecting!!! :lol:

If crime isn't worse, why are we in America considered to be so violent? Is it all just the media? I was totally reading the gun thread and thinking that the people were saying that violent crime is worse now than it used to be, etc, etc - I never checked it, I just assumed that was what they were saying and that they were correct. :leaving:

Or was it just America being 'more violent' than other countries?

[Barb_]

Or was it just America being 'more violent' than other countries?

 

I believe it was this.

[Denise in Florida]

Check your stats; the bold it not accurate.

 

I firmly believe that most kids in most neighborhoods CAN and SHOULD "go out and play."

 

I, for one, am glad that child, spousal, and sexual abuse are reported now whereas when I grew up, they were underreported.

 

 

:iagree::iagree: with the bolded part above.

 

I had many friends warn me that I was putting my kids at risk by allowing them to run around the neighborhood with friends. They have tons of happy memories of exploring the local park and creek and of going to the bread store for sodas. They had one occasion of a young man cat-calling them and calling them names, they handled it well. Stick together, walk away, do not speak or look at the offender.

 

It really is a matter of the worst thing to fear is fear itself. Because fewer families allow kids to hang around the neighborhood or ride their bikes to the park there are fewer kids to stick together in a group with. These kids also then don't seem to have good judgement when they hit 16, get a car and become mobile.

 

When we stop connecting with people because we are afraid, we become isolated which can lead to greater danger.

 

 

 

 

It comes

[SKL]

Or was it just America being 'more violent' than other countries?

 

When it comes to most countries, many comparisons aren't logical because they see Americans as all one group, whereas in their home countries, they don't include the lower classes in their comparison. Their idea of "we" is often "we of the educated class who can afford to feed our kids and send them to school." Whereas in the USA "we" means all Americans.

 

I mean, seriously, how many of you consider your family and friends to be generally violent and dangerous?

[Mrs Mungo]

Also this: Steady Decline in Major Crime Baffles Experts

 

Crazy, huh?

 

Does it have to be baffling? Can they just be happily surprised? Baffles has this intonation that they're slightly disappointed.

 

Do you think? I think baffles just implies that they lack an explanation.

 

I think the US has more violence than some other Western countries for a few reasons:

 

1. Less mental health care

2. Less ability to lock up dangerous people

3. Guns are easier to get

4. Bigger communities, so harder to look out for one another

5. Law enforcement is usually left to the states, so investigations are often fractured (not exactly the word I am looking for here?)

[Joanne]

My parents' wartime childhood included bombings of their neighborhoods. If they were more free range than my children, it's partially because their parents had ever so much more on their plate than I do on mine. Add in today's medical advancements, and my children are much, much safer than their grandparents were as children.

 

I remember my Dad's fear for us was "communism" and that the "Russians were trying to take over the world."

[LibraryLover]

A little more reading about the rest of the world is in order. Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece, Brazil, Israel etc. Most people are not reading about other countries and politics; they are reading about the US and our inflammatory journalism. Is Saudi Arabia posting their rape reports, child abuse, or head counts in Chop Chop square? ( Answer: Nope) What do we know about China or North Korea, or other countries where the news is not transparent or easily available?

 

The US is a big honking country. We are very open with our news, and we love hubris. I won't say we don't. lol

 

Part of the problem here is poverty, which folks in other countries don't think should exist in the US. (Why, I do not know.)

 

The US has well over 300,000,000 people. There is NO other country with our population, our youth, and our diversity. NONE. Other countries have diversity, yes, but nobody touches us in the sheer numbers + diversity category. We are one giant experiment. I think that is rather interesting, and I am sort of proud of us. We are the giant foster home of the world. It makes us different, and exciting.

 

Anyway, what's the downside to badmouthing America? There isn't a downside. What are we going to do? Why do we deserve what we have? Why do even poor people here get to have stuff? To the rest of the world, we are RICH. Even the poorest here get actual rooms, with actual clean running water.

 

We are as nice, and as bad as anyone. We are everyone.

 

People (meaning The Whole Darn World) think we should be better, but why? We are human and young and have a very large population, and a good deal of poverty. (We could change a lot if we provided health care for all.)

 

Let's consider this: Athens, Greece, which is having a terrible problem with crime, has a population of about 110,000. In the US, 110,000 people is not considered huge. Athens has a much higher crime and murder rate than many US cities of the same size. Athens is experiencing terrible times, and poverty is growing. Where people struggle, there is crime.

 

I accept that the US, which has been a haven for many (although with a checkered past), is often the butt of jokes. It doesn't upset me. We have a huge and diverse population. We are dealing with numbers that are atypical. There is no down side to people making jokes about the US. Everyone gets to be made fun of at some point, and currently it is us. I really don't care if some French waiter makes fun of fatty Americans. The French do often consider Americans rude, even when we aren't necessarily. We speak much more casually here. In France, people prefer/expect to be called Madam, Mademoiselle, Monsieur etc.

 

But I honestly don't think much about this. When I travel, and people say, "You don't seem American!", I've asked how many Americans they have met. Many haven't met any. They watch TV, and they love Bay Watch, and all the crime shows. I travel a lot in the US, and I usually only meet Brits, Japanese, Danes. Brits and Canadians, fwiw love Florida. lol It doesn't seem to me that many Europeans are traveling outside of Europe. Americans love European and Asian tourists. We go out of our way to help. it seems we are just so excited to see people from other countries. We really love it. I've always had good experiences abroad, so I can't speak to being treated badly. (Except by Greeks. lol I had a lot of trouble there. It was odd & upsetting. I was very polite, although that did not seem to make a difference.)

 

Try to imagine being German in about 1946 and thereabouts. That had to suck wind. Think about being South African in '85. It's just our turn.

 

Believe me, I am a liberal, and I have a complaint list about the US that I wouldn't post here. But a little perspective matters.

Edited June 30, 2013 by LibraryLover

[Jyniffrec]

:iagree::iagree: with the bolded part above.

 

I had many friends warn me that I was putting my kids at risk by allowing them to run around the neighborhood with friends. They have tons of happy memories of exploring the local park and creek and of going to the bread store for sodas. They had one occasion of a young man cat-calling them and calling them names, they handled it well. Stick together, walk away, do not speak or look at the offender.

 

It really is a matter of the worst thing to fear is fear itself. Because fewer families allow kids to hang around the neighborhood or ride their bikes to the park there are fewer kids to stick together in a group with. These kids also then don't seem to have good judgement when they hit 16, get a car and become mobile.

 

When we stop connecting with people because we are afraid, we become isolated which can lead to greater danger.

 

 

 

 

:iagree: We make a conscious effort not to give in to fear and we talk to our kids about it. We feel very fortunate that we have neighbors who allow their kids to run around and play with ours. In contrast there is a child in the neighborhood who never gets to play because her parents are so afraid. We have (sadly) given up on trying to have a relationship with them.

[Mrs Mungo]

Great points, LL.

[justamouse]

Do you think? I think baffles just implies that they lack an explanation.

 

 

True, I guess I would have chosen another word. :001_smile:

[Ghee]

I think, IME anyway, it's also a case of people being to self absorbed. I was little in the 80's, then if a parent saw someone bothering a kid they usually stepped in, if they saw a kid being awful they tended to say something. I'd say, the further back you go, the more true that is. Now, people tend to be less prone to jump in because they think they may not have all the facts, or the parents may come down on them later. Also, you dare not reprimand another person's child. MOST people, here anyway, will hand you your own backside if you tell their child not to do something.

 

 

Also, as someone pointed out, it's much less common to know your neighbors. When I grew up, we knew everyone on our street. People rarely moved, there was little turn over. Now, my mom lives on the same street, and there are probably only 1/2 the people we know. And, many times, a house sells several times over the course of a few years so you can't really get to know the people who move in before they move out. Society is much more transient now, at least than it used to be in Small Town USA. It may have always been more transient in bigger cities.

[DianeW88]

Violent crime has actually gone down in recent years. Our perception of it has increased thanks to the sensational 24 hour news cycle.

Hard Times, Fewer Crimes

 

:iagree: And I refuse to raise my children in a culture of fear. It's detrimental to them. I am a free range mom. My kids have always wandered the neighborhood without me having to know where they are every second (as have the other kids around here). In fact, my son and his friends walk down to Blockbuster and the ice cream shop on a regular basis (he's 11 and the shops are about a 1/2 mile away).

 

I think that kids who live over-sheltered lives have a more difficult time adjusting to the adult world. My kids have seen that repeatedly in college. Those helicopter parents are not doing their kids any favors in life.

[PeacefulChaos]

 

I think that kids who live over-sheltered lives have a more difficult time adjusting to the adult world. My kids have seen that repeatedly in college. Those helicopter parents are not doing their kids any favors in life.

 

I agree with this. I've dealt with (family member) helicopter parents that I seriously feel are insane sometimes. :lol: :D

 

I also apparently totally read the posts in the other thread wrong. I don't know where I got the idea that they were saying US society is worse now than it used to be... :tongue_smilie: Oh, well. It's good to hear that we aren't as bad as I thought. :lol: I wasn't worried about it either way... just speculating. Turns out there wasn't anything to speculate about. ;)

[KungFuPanda]

I don't know how this thread will do... I'm not trying to be controversial or stir the pot or anything, I'm just curious as to what others think.

It was brought up a bit in the gun thread, the differences in society years ago vs. today. Overall, society is not as safe as it was then - crime has gone up (violent crime, other crime too), we can't do the things that our parents and grandparents could (sending the kids out - back then pretty much everyone was a 'free range kid', weren't they? :lol: )

So I am just wondering what everyone's take is on why. What happened? What has changed? Why are things different?

I don't know that anyone has the right answer. I'm just curious as to what people think and think it would be interesting discussion.

:bigear:

 

What happened? Really?

 

You got old. :D

[Lucy the Valiant]

Another thing is that many laws have changed - I was a relatively peaceful, happy kid, though technically a latchkey kid. If I allowed my children today the "free range" that my parents allowed me, I'd probably be arrested.

 

(Example A: When I was 8-10-ish years old, if my mom needed butter, she'd give me $2, and I'd ride my bike down the street to the grocery, buy it, and ride home. This was in a large city, with average crime rates, and we lived downtown. My own children are growing up in a small town, mostly middle-class, and if I sent my 8yo daughter in to the grocery store by herself to buy butter while i waited in the parking lot, I am certain that some well-meaning individual would call either CPS or the cops or both, though my daughter is perfectly capable of buying butter on her own.

 

Example B: My parents signed up for tennis lessons every summer; we rode our bikes (alone) several blocks to the big city park, paid the college age kid, took the lessons, hung out for a couple of hours, and then rode home. We had free range of a very large neighborhood on our bikes - something my kids could NEVER do now.)

 

 

Crime rates notwithstanding, the world does seem to have changed significantly, at least from my (albeit limited) perspective.

[Stellalarella]

I thought this thread was interesting because of a long ago (and positive!) impression American made on someone visiting the country. Rhoda Blumberg's book, "Shipwrecked!" tells about a young man from 1850s Japan who is shipwrecked and rescued by an American whaler. After his long journey through the world, he dares to go back to isolated, closed Japan. This is what he tells the Japanese officials about the America he experienced.

 

"The character of the people is very generous and honest and they do little wrong."

"The Americans are better tempered than the Japanese."

"America is working to develop its own country and has no time to attack other countries."

"The present king is called Taylor. He lives very simply and goes about on horseback, followed by a single retainer."

 

:001_smile:

 

But as for America today, I do find myself constantly having to check my brain from overfearing my kids' safety. I think I sometimes worry unnecessarily about what some other parent might think about my children walking in the neighborhood.

 

And what would the "kid-safety police" do to me if they knew I sent my kids out without, gasp!, a CELL PHONE?

[PeacefulChaos]

What happened? Really?

 

You got old. :D

Dang it! You figured it out. Turning 30 is rough. :D :tongue_smilie:

 

Crime rates notwithstanding, the world does seem to have changed significantly, at least from my (albeit limited) perspective.

 

I have noticed this for sure. Is the idea that kids are less safe a true one? Or something perpetuated by the all-powerful media? :lol: ;) (Note: I don't find myself to be overly jumpy regarding anything. I was surprised to hear that people chose not to go to Batman after the happenings in Aurora. Yes, they were terrible... but I just don't understand the mentality of fear. My kids were playing in the yard when the cops chased a guy in a truck down the street and he fired his gun at the cops as he was driving. I didn't then insist they never go outside again - I took it for what it was - a freak happening. Is the publicity that these freak happenings generate creating fear in people that they are actually the norm, I wonder? Wait...did that question even make sense? It did in my head...)

 

ETA: I do sometimes think it would be SO much easier for me to call them in for dinner if they had a cell phone. :D :lol:

[Barb_]

I think I sometimes worry unnecessarily about what some other parent might think about my children walking in the neighborhood.

 

And what would the "kid-safety police" do to me if they knew I sent my kids out without, gasp!, a CELL PHONE?

 

This is what I've learned to fear more than "bad guys." For good reasons.

[stripe]

The US has nearly 400, 000, 000 people. There is NO other country with our population, our youth, and our diversity. NONE. Other countries have diversity, yes, but nobdoy touches us in sheer numbers + diversity category.

 

Brazil is not exactly radically dissimilar, I'd say. Singapore is much more evenly split in its ethnic diversity. India has 1.2 billion people, about a third of the population is young, and has a fair amount of ethnic diversity, and religious diversity not unlike the US (although different faiths), and an enormous linguistic diversity.

There are 161 countries with a higher percentage of youth than the US has, so I am not sure the US is that overwhelmingly young. Politically, the elderly still get all the attention.

[Stellalarella]

This is what I've learned to fear more than "bad guys." For good reasons.

 

Oh, man. I need encouragement. :001_smile:

[SKL]

Brazil is not exactly radically dissimilar, I'd say. Singapore is much more evenly split in its ethnic diversity. India has 1.2 billion people, about a third of the population is young, and has a fair amount of ethnic diversity, and religious diversity not unlike the US (although different faiths), and an enormous linguistic diversity.

There are 161 countries with a higher percentage of youth than the US has, so I am not sure the US is that overwhelmingly young. Politically, the elderly still get all the attention.

 

Both Brazil and India are far less safe than the USA, FWIW. (I don't know much about Singapore.)

[LibraryLover]

Both Brazil and India are far less safe than the USA, FWIW. (I don't know much about Singapore.)

 

 

Not to mention, I was talking about the nation itself, not the age of the population.

 

Brazil and India have grave issues as well. I mentioned Brazil in my post. The street children in both countries, just as one example, has the US foster system looking like WDW in comparison.

Edited August 6, 2012 by LibraryLover

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I think we get the perception that society is less safe because the rules of polite behavior have kind of broken down in lots of places.

 

I know for myself, when I go out and about and meet lots of rude people on a single day, I'm more inclined to feel influenced by negative headlines when I check the news that night.

 

When really, the actual crime is down. It feels (subconsciously) like all these people around me are part of those capable of atrocity when the truth is they're just ruder than folks in this town were in the 80s. It's just a big conglomeration of negativity, changing the perception.

 

It feels like we're all gonna kill each other but it's probably more likely that we're just gonna snark each other to death.

 

On an intellectual level I know this, so my children are allowed to move about in society. On an emotional and spiritual level I'm just not all that thrilled with society right now, though.

[Barb_]

It feels like we're all gonna kill each other but it's probably more likely that we're just gonna snark each other to death.

 

:lol:

[Crimson Wife]

Violent crime has actually gone down in recent years. Our perception of it has increased thanks to the sensational 24 hour news cycle.

Hard Times, Fewer Crimes

 

It's still way, way up compared to pre-1960's. Charles Murray discussed it in his recent book Coming Apart: The State of White America 1960-2010. I highly recommend the book as it is very pertinent to the issues being discussed in this thread.

[LibraryLover]

I give Florence, Italy a pass. They can say whatever bad things they want about US college students. It has to be because of our puritanical thoughts about alcohol that makes young adults go insane when there is no drinking age. Florence has had a hard time of it with students. It's like an Olympic Village there. ;) it's not just American kids, but our kids tend to be binge drinkers. Most have never learned to be moderate in their intake.

[Crimson Wife]

In 1960, there were 288,460 reported violent crimes in a population of 179 million. In 2010, there were 1,246,248 violent crimes in a population of 308 million. Source is here.

 

Yes, violent crime is off its 1992 peak of 1,932,270, but it's still more than quadruple what it was in 1960 even though the population is only 1.7 times as large.

 

I stand by my assertion that the U.S. is less safe now than it was prior to the middle part of the 20th century.

[Mrs Mungo]

I give Florence, Italy a pass. They can say whatever bad things they want about US college students. It has to be because of our puritanical thoughts about alcohol that makes young adults go insane when there is no drinking age. Florence has had a hard time of it with students. It's like an Olympic Village there. ;) it's not just American kids, but our kids tend to be binge drinkers. Most have never learned to be moderate in their intake.

 

And other kids have? I disagree. I watched a ton of European tv when we lived in Europe (hey, I had newborns, okay!?). All of those reality shows with British and European kids going to Ibiza and such? Yeah, it is not just US teens.:tongue_smilie:

[Mrs Mungo]

Crimes reported does not equal crimes committed. Especially those things that were not crimes at the time like lynching a black man or beating your wife.

[LibraryLover]

And other kids have? I disagree. I watched a ton of European tv when we lived in Europe (hey, I had newborns, okay!?). All of those reality shows with British and European kids going to Ibiza and such? Yeah, it is not just US teens.:tongue_smilie:

 

You're right. You know, I noticed that as well. I saw a couple of local kids vomiting outside the pubs. Some were as young as 12. I always figured they got it out of their system sooner.

 

There are men and boys who are stellar members of their local communities, but hell often breaks loose when they go elsewhere. I have a friend who has lived in many Asian countries for the past 20 years, Malaysia currently, and she has seen many men (most not from the US) who act like sex maniacs the second they get off the Tarmac. She also says many people from outside the country are paid poorly and abused, and so are poor people within the country. They don't have anywhere to turn for help. There is so much happening that we don't hear about.

 

Because something is not reported doesn't mean something isn't happening. Malaysian( and others) girls who are being abused out of sight, are not counted in rape stats. They are bringing money into the country, so they are goods to be sold. How many end up dead, and we never hear about it? This might sound lime a terrible thing to say, but why don't Saudi men get a bad rap? They are pretty fat, and they leave their own country to party. Most have far more money than most Americans.

Edited August 6, 2012 by LibraryLover

[Mrs Mungo]

And how about the Russian mob basically owning Thailand? The difference? The average *American* doesn't know anything about that, so you see few movies/tv shows that deal with it. Our shows deal with American excess and American issues. Those are the tv shows and movies that get exported around the world. I am sure there are a lot of other contributing factors.

[LibraryLover]

I'm sorry for all the above typos. I'm on my phone, and am having a difficult time getting the whole page to load. I see the errors, but I can't get them on the screen to correct then. Blerg.

[Spy Car]

Violent crime has actually gone down in recent years. Our perception of it has increased thanks to the sensational 24 hour news cycle.

Hard Times, Fewer Crimes

 

:iagree:

 

The fear-mongers create fear because it serves their interests. But it tears at the fabric of society and breeds hatred and insecurity. The truth is violent crime is down.

 

Bill

[Mrs Mungo]

I'm sorry for all the above typos. I'm on my phone, and am having a difficult time getting the whole page to load. I see the errors, but I can't get them on the screen to correct then. Blerg.

 

Time to graduate to an iPad? ;)

[Colleen]

Time to graduate to an iPad? ;)

 

"Graduate"?! And to think, some of us (okay, one of us...) still don't have a cell phone. All these tech toys are gonna be the death of us. The world's goin' to hell in handbasket, I tell ya!

 

;)

[Mrs Mungo]

"Graduate"?! And to think, some of us (okay, one of us...) still don't have a cell phone. All these tech toys are gonna be the death of us. The world's goin' to hell in handbasket, I tell ya!

 

;)

 

Hey, where have you been? We miss you!

[mathwonk]

I don't know about everyone, but my own household is considerably less violent than the one I grew up in. My father was in his first significant fist fight (teeth were lost, phone calls were made accusing him) at age 11 or so, and was in his first gunfight at about age 20. (A gunman stalking him was shot by him and fell off a train.) When he went to the door to pay the paperboy in our home he wore a loaded handgun.

 

I was taught to shoot in our basement and to disassemble a 45 automatic at age 10.

 

We are not regularly armed in our household today. That's progress.

 

But of course I still think we are going to hell in a hand basket.

Edited August 6, 2012 by mathwonk

[klmama]

I'm guessing those of you who think it's safer now don't live where there are gangs. 30 years ago, when dh and I were teens, this city was safer. Murders only happened every couple of years. Now, they happen almost every month. 30 years ago, most teen boys here took pocket knives with them everywhere, including school, and they only used them as tools. Last month, there were 6 stabbings in our city that made the news, including 3 stabbings by juveniles. 30 years ago, playing in the local parks was safe. Now, there are frequent gang fights and gunfire on the playgrounds; the police try to deal with it, but they are spread so thin dealing with all the other gang-related crime, they can't do much. If you really do live where it is safer now, be thankful. It isn't that way for all of us.

[stripe]

Not to mention, I was talking about the nation itself, not the age of the population.

 

Well, okay, so then, yeah, "There is NO other country with our population, our youth, and our diversity. NONE" is true in a literal sense (there are not clone societies of Americans and another country somewhere), but always pleading American exceptionalism makes it rather limiting to have any sort of discussion. No one else has my husband, but I don't think that means no one else has a marriage that I can learn from. I really don't see why "nobdoy touches us in sheer numbers + diversity category" is true.

 

I tend to agree with Crimson Wife. Violent crime may have declined since the 1970s or whenever, but that wasn't when my mother was a kid, anyway. Charles Murray's book was pretty eye opening, and I am not a CM fan. (Not that CM.) So if "diversity" is the big issue (meaning, what, errant brown people), CM might be a good read, because even white boys have changed.