Modesty...your thoughts...

[mymonkeybug]

My SIL and I, who both homeschool our children have been discussing modesty this past week in light of the issues with my DS I posted about here last week(12 year old curiosity about sex and finding things on internet).

 

What are the opinions here on this subject? Modesty and the way we dress and present ourselves. Here is a good sermon that helped me rethink even just a couple of the lower cut shirts I wear regularly. While I can't control the eyes of men, I can surely not tempt them by excess cleavage.

 

http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?SpeakerOnly=true&currSection=sermonsspeaker&keyword=C.^J.^Mahaney

 

It runs about 45 minutes so listen when you have then chance and then respond should you desire to do so.

 

What will you do to help raise your daughters to be modest?

[stripe]

What will you do to help raise your daughters to be modest?

 

Let me preface this by saying i'm all for modesty.

 

I don't believe it's a female issue.

 

I discuss issues of modesty with my male AND female children.

 

I don't believe it is modest for men to wear super tight pants or teeny weeny bikini swim bottoms, which one of the male swim teachers (not my kids') wears at their pool, so they've seen in person. I have personally had more sightings of naked men in public (and I mean, the full monty) than topless women. I don't recall ever coming across a woman with her pants off.

 

I also believe it's VERY important, both according to my religious/moral beliefs and the laws of the country I live in, that one take responsibility for one's actions. No matter how a woman is dressed, a man should not presume permission to do whatever he wants with her. This is very important as a concept to me, especially for my sons to digest, because I don't want them to be sexual predators.

 

I doubt this is coming out quite the way I intend, but I think both girls and boys should be careful of how they conduct themselves and the assumptions they make about others.

[Soror]

We try to dress modestly by our own standards(we do not look like Amish though). I think it looks nicer and garners more respect. I don't want anyone looking at me or mine as sex objects. That said I'm put off by the idea that it is the women's fault if a men has impure thoughts etc. We all make our own decisions, choices, etc. and I think it is a crappy cop out to put the blame on women. It seems to be just another legalistic thing these days for some holier than though contest all too often.

[TammyinTN]

:iagree: I could not agree more!

[Carol in Cal.]

Any discussions of this topic always make me a bit uneasy.

There is a strand of 'men can't help themselves' that I find disturbing, inherent in the whole idea.

 

I tend to teach elegance and sustainable style rather than modesty. Some clothes are trashy, and those are unacceptable. Some clothes are attractive by means of being provocative, and those are undignified. Some clothes are attractive without being provocative, stunningly elegant--those are what I promote. I think that girls and women should have enough self-respect to choose that way, and that that is more for their own sake than for men's sake.

[suppleasthewind]

Any discussions of this topic always make me a bit uneasy.

There is a strand of 'men can't help themselves' that I find disturbing, inherent in the whole idea.

 

I tend to teach elegance and sustainable style rather than modesty. Some clothes are trashy, and those are unacceptable. Some clothes are attractive by means of being provocative, and those are undignified. Some clothes are attractive without being provocative, stunningly elegant--those are what I promote. I think that girls and women should have enough self-respect to choose that way, and that that is more for their own sake than for men's sake.

 

:iagree:

[Hope44]

Let me preface this by saying I think we need to teach our young men to respect our young ladies FIRST. That was Jesus' admonishment when He spoke about lust. He spoke to the men about their HEARTS. He didn't speak to the women about provoking men to do so.

 

I know a young man who often posts things on facebook about how girls should and shouldn't dress. His posts are so often and obsessive, I believe he views women in total as just a more sinful group. How is that respectful?

 

Here is one of the best columns I have read on this issue. It is from a man...a pastor, no less, and I just didn't expect to read something like this and was pleasantly surprised.

 

khttp://jeffbethke.com/the-idolatry-of-modesty/

 

Also, I will say whenever the "modestly dressed" issue comes up, I've noticed everyone has his/her own idea about what is or is not "modest." Yet, often those who become obsessed with modesty become very self-righteous and judgmental.

[justamouse]

We try to dress modestly by our own standards(we do not look like Amish though). I think it looks nicer and garners more respect. I don't want anyone looking at me or mine as sex objects. That said I'm put off by the idea that it is the women's fault if a men has impure thoughts etc. We all make our own decisions, choices, etc. and I think it is a crappy cop out to put the blame on women. It seems to be just another legalistic thing these days for some holier than though contest all too often.

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

The idea that it's a woman's responsibility to cover up so that a man doesn't have 'lustful thoughts' is repugnant. And we're pretty modest over here.

 

Man up. Be responsible for your own thoughts.

[mymonkeybug]

Let me preface this by saying i'm all for modesty.

 

I don't believe it's a female issue.

 

I discuss issues of modesty with my male AND female children.

 

 

 

You are absolutely correct; modesty is a dual gender issue. I specified female in my original post however because this particular sermon was very focused on the way women dress.

 

I agree with you about the way men do and in some cases don't dress. UGH!!!!!

[Veritaserum]

 

I am so sick of the "don't tempt the men" approach to modesty. It is rampant in my own denomination and I hate the way it both tells men that they are poor, visual creatures who can't control their thoughts while telling women that their bodies must be "properly" covered or else they are guilty of causing their brothers to stumble. That line of thinking is not far from "she was asking to get raped" because of x, y, z. Sick and wrong.

[mymonkeybug]

That said I'm put off by the idea that it is the women's fault if a men has impure thoughts etc. We all make our own decisions, choices, etc. and I think it is a crappy cop out to put the blame on women. It seems to be just another legalistic thing these days for some holier than though contest all too often.

 

I don't believe it is solely a womans responsibility when it comes to this. I agree with you that we are not responsible for mens thoughts. We could dress like the Amish and still there would be men out there that lust after us.

 

On the other hand, while I don't believe in any way, shape, or form that rape or sexual abuse in any fashion are OK, I do believe that if a woman chooses to dress provocatively and put herself in a bad situation, she to some degree is asking for something bad to happen to her and must take some responsibility for some of what happens to herself should she become victim of something. Please don't shoot me...just my opinion to which I am entitled.

[mymonkeybug]

Any discussions of this topic always make me a bit uneasy.

There is a strand of 'men can't help themselves' that I find disturbing, inherent in the whole idea.

 

I tend to teach elegance and sustainable style rather than modesty. Some clothes are trashy, and those are unacceptable. Some clothes are attractive by means of being provocative, and those are undignified. Some clothes are attractive without being provocative, stunningly elegant--those are what I promote. I think that girls and women should have enough self-respect to choose that way, and that that is more for their own sake than for men's sake.

 

:iagree: Very well stated.

[Veritaserum]

I don't believe it is solely a womans responsibility when it comes to this. I agree with you that we are not responsible for mens thoughts. We could dress like the Amish and still there would be men out there that lust after us.

 

On the other hand, while I don't believe in any way, shape, or form that rape or sexual abuse in any fashion are OK, I do believe that if a woman chooses to dress provocatively and put herself in a bad situation, she to some degree is asking for something bad to happen to her and must take some responsibility for some of what happens to herself should she become victim of something. Please don't shoot me...just my opinion to which I am entitled.

 

So, a woman in a country where women must cover themselves from head to toe in order to be "modest" is responsible for her rape or death if she exposes her ankle or another "forbidden" body part while in public? Because obviously she was foolish to go where there are men and not scrupulously guard her modesty?

[mymonkeybug]

 

I am so sick of the "don't tempt the men" approach to modesty. It is rampant in my own denomination and I hate the way it both tells men that they are poor, visual creatures who can't control their thoughts while telling women that their bodies must be "properly" covered or else they are guilty of causing their brothers to stumble. That line of thinking is not far from "she was asking to get raped" because of x, y, z. Sick and wrong.

 

:tongue_smilie: You will hate one of my responses then so after you curse me, lol, just know that I do not believe it is ok for any woman to be raped regardless of her dress, just that she needs to be responsible for the way she dresses and the message it puts out there. We have all been guilty of being judgemental haven't we? We are in the mall and take a second look at a woman that is dressed like she should be in a street corner, or a woman that has tried cramming 10 lbs of **** into a 5 lb bag. We are all sinful in our thought process and just need to be more diligent about our thoughts as well as our outward appearance. Yes, men MUST take responsibility for their thoughts also. I am sure that even a woman covered head to toe is thought of lustfully or pervertedly by some men out there.

 

Anyway, my intent in posting this was not to start a fire storm of emotional responses, just a spring board for some thoughts and opinions from others about the topic.

[mymonkeybug]

So, a woman in a country where women must cover themselves from head to toe in order to be "modest" is responsible for her rape or death if she exposes her ankle or another "forbidden" body part while in public? Because obviously she was foolish to go where there are men and not scrupulously guard her modesty?

 

Sadly in the type of countries you are referring to, the issue goes far beyond modesty. I think the problem their is more of men simply trying to keep women down because they know what women are capable of. Keep them under your thumb to control them is that mind set.

[Dustybug]

Obviously modesty is a very subjective issue.

 

For our family, we do place certain standards, albeit different ones on both genders. We do think that a man is responsible for his thoughts, however we also believe that certain styles of dress are merely for drawing attention to certain areas of the body(short shorts, skirts, low cut shirts, etc). We believe that we shouldn't draw that sort of attention. It isn't about the men not being able to control themselves, it's about not causing our fellow brother to stumble into lustful thoughts intentionally. If I wear a shirt that shows every part of my breast but the nipple, then I *know* a man will probably look and this could cause lustful thoughts. Same for men. If they wear super tight pants that show off certain areas, then they *know* that women may look and have lustful thoughts.

 

I disagree that the Lord doesn't care about what we wear.

 

We believe that there are certain parts of the body that are to be saved for view by our spouse only and we dress accordingly. For *our family* this means for the girls, no skirts, capris, or shorts above the knee (although we wear mostly skirts), no midriffs, no cleavage. I don't have anything against sleeveless shirts as long as bra straps aren't hanging out. When I wear a shirt that may scoop down and show cleavage, I wear another undershirt under it to prevent that from happening, etc.

 

I recently wrote a blog post about our family's views here (although this is just for the girls. I haven't written my post about the boys yet)http://reachtothemoonandback.blogspot.com/2012/07/skirts-mostly-familys-transition.html

 

We don't impose our standards on anyone else though. I have friends that dress all sorts of ways, and while I may not agree with their choices, it is *their* choice.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Dustybug

[justLisa]

That card cracks me up :lol:

 

Walk around stark nekkid if you want, NOONE has the right to touch you if you did not ask for it.

 

Unless you *are* walking around stark nekkid, then I think maybe you could be arrested

[elegantlion]

I

 

On the other hand, while I don't believe in any way, shape, or form that rape or sexual abuse in any fashion are OK, I do believe that if a woman chooses to dress provocatively and put herself in a bad situation, she to some degree is asking for something bad to happen to her and must take some responsibility for some of what happens to herself should she become victim of something. Please don't shoot me...just my opinion to which I am entitled.

 

Do you live near a beach? A pool? You're still blaming the victim.

[mymonkeybug]

 

Walk around stark nekkid if you want, NOONE has the right to touch you if you did not ask for it.

 

 

You are absolutely correct but you don't feel that in doing so you may be giving the wrong impression and potentially cause something ill to happen to yourself?

[LittleIzumi]

I know my hubby doesn't like it when girls walk by at his school with really low-cut tops and whatnot--he can control his own thoughts but he doesn't like glancing up from his psych text to see bazingas popping out. It's meant to draw the eye to that part, even if just for a moment before the "eeeep look the other way" and it's just distracting. I'd feel the same if I was trying to study and guys walked by in short-shorts or topless from working out. It's distracting!!

[mymonkeybug]

Do you live near a beach? A pool? You're still blaming the victim.

 

Why yes, we actually do live on a beach and I am so very saddened every day at what I see as acceptable beach wear for so many of the people, both male and female, out there.

[LittleIzumi]

You are absolutely correct but you don't feel that in doing so you may be giving the wrong impression and potentially cause something ill to happen to yourself?

 

That does NOT "cause" something bad to happen to you. If I saw a nekkid man wandering around, it wouldn't "cause" me to jump on him or do anything but look away. And snort. And maybe post about it on FB. The idea that anyone could sexually assault another person is a problem in the mind of the assulter, NOT what the victim chose to wear that day.

[Veritaserum]

Sadly in the type of countries you are referring to, the issue goes far beyond modesty. I think the problem their is more of men simply trying to keep women down because they know what women are capable of. Keep them under your thumb to control them is that mind set.

 

It's the very same attitude that is present in a less severe form here in American Christianity. When you objectify a woman's body as being primarily sexual, you devalue her as a person.

 

The sexual objectification of women's bodies is rampant in our culture, so the social conditioning can be difficult to see past.

[elegantlion]

Why yes, we actually do live on a beach and I am so very saddened every day at what I see as acceptable beach wear for so many of the people, both male and female, out there.

 

According to your logic then, it must be a very dangerous place to live.

 

Have you compared s*xual assault statistics with an area where there is no beach?

[mymonkeybug]

I know my hubby doesn't like it when girls walk by at his school with really low-cut tops and whatnot--he can control his own thoughts but he doesn't like glancing up from his psych text to see bazingas popping out. It's meant to draw the eye to that part, even if just for a moment before the "eeeep look the other way" and it's just distracting. I'd feel the same if I was trying to study and guys walked by in short-shorts or topless from working out. It's distracting!!

 

Distracting yes!!! Now as a woman, and I am only asking for an opinion, not accusing you so don't feel that way, but should a well built man walk by in no shirt with rippling muscles showing, would it not make you think thoughts you otherwise wouldn't have thought at that moment? You are reading a text and just happen to look up to see that and suddenly rather than looking right back down at your text and continuing on your way with reading, you must stop your brain from focusing on the image you just saw and taking your thoughts to a lustful place. That is what I mean when I make a comment along the lines of a woman or in this case a man dressing a certain way are putting themselves into a situation where others are going to, in our sinful manner, have sinful thoughts.

[Mrs Mungo]

I believe in a certain amount of "body privacy." BUT, I think there is a lot of room for interpretation when it comes to modesty.

 

I also think that the modesty movement that is currently popular among certain groups in the US, is inherently anti-woman. It's all about keeping men from stumbling versus having respect for yourself as a person. It's all about, "well, if a boy sees your legs, then he could be tempted, therefore, you cannot participate in sports." It's about "she is tempting me with her two piece swimsuit," even when her swimsuit covers all of her girl parts. That's wrong-headed, imo. It gives boys AND girls a false impression of what the Bible says and the responsibilities that we hold to one another. The poster

 

Women can never be modest or good or pious enough for some groups.

 

*Every* part of a woman's body can be sexualized, hence the burka.

 

Look through this website. It is very telling, imo. *Sevety-five percent* say that they have less respect for immodest girls. That is TOTALLY against the teachings of Christ. But, is the website focused on that? No. It is focused on whether men get excited when a the bra-strap of a girl or woman pokes out from under her shirt.

 

http://www.therebelution.com/modestysurvey/browse

[Embassy]

I didn't listen to the message, but I did read through the transcript.

 

I believe modesty is important, but its interpretation in churches around the world and in the course of history is cultural. I'm sure there are many instances of something that was immodest 200 years ago not being an issue for the "guy-who-can't-stop-lusting." Sometimes church culture regarding modestly can be quite silly. My dh was reprimanded by leaders of another church for displaying a poster with a woman showing bare arms and arm pits (She was raising her hands in worship to God). He still laughs at the idea that men are turned on by armpits.

 

I plan to teach my daughter to dress modestly in the culture in which she lives. I will also teach her that is is best to attract a man by who she is inside. I think this is a major issue that many girls don't understand or aren't taught.

 

That said, men need to take responsibility for their actions and thoughts and not try to police women. Burka wearing societies are not free from sexual sin. Covering women up won't solve the problem.

 

I also disagree with churches who try to "gently" or not so gently change how women dress. Let God change this issue with the individual.

[TheReader]

 

I am so sick of the "don't tempt the men" approach to modesty. It is rampant in my own denomination and I hate the way it both tells men that they are poor, visual creatures who can't control their thoughts while telling women that their bodies must be "properly" covered or else they are guilty of causing their brothers to stumble. That line of thinking is not far from "she was asking to get raped" because of x, y, z. Sick and wrong.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

This. On all points.

 

Men are not helpless animals, who will fall into a pit of lustfulness if they accidentally see a woman with cleavage exposed or a tight skirt or a v-neck shirt or in jeans or (insert your "she broke a modesty rule!!" thing here).

 

And while women do certainly have power with the way they dress, it's more than just dress IMO and extends (and is even more powerful than dress) into attitude and how she carries herself, but unless a woman/girl is purposely flirting, enticing, actively trying to get a man's attention, then she did not cause him to stumble.

 

And any action that then stems from his reaction is not her fault, either, unless it's consentual and she instigates it.

[justLisa]

You are absolutely correct but you don't feel that in doing so you may be giving the wrong impression and potentially cause something ill to happen to yourself?

 

Ya, like getting arrested for being stark naked in public. Or maybe laughed at.

 

I teach DD how to carry herself in a respectable manner so as to further herself in life with respect. NOT because it has *anything* to do with the other gender specifically.

[Mrs Mungo]

Sadly in the type of countries you are referring to, the issue goes far beyond modesty. I think the problem their is more of men simply trying to keep women down because they know what women are capable of. Keep them under your thumb to control them is that mind set.

 

I don't believe the mindset of USA Christians obsessed with modesty is much different. I think it all stems from the same place.

[mymonkeybug]

According to your logic then, it must be a very dangerous place to live.

 

Have you compared s*xual assault statistics with an area where there is no beach?

 

Dangerous place to live...sure...does my husband see on of the bikini clad women and have sinful human thoughts? I would be naive to think he didn't. Do I have sinful thoughts if a well built man in swim trunks shows up? Yep! Not gonna' deny it. Do we both fight the urge to do anything about it? Sure do. Are there others that don't? Of course. We are responsible for our own thoughts as many of you have posted and I agree 100% but I also feel that to some degree as humans that we put ourselves into bad situations all the time by what we wear, how we speak, where we go... Should a single woman go to a bar and get drunk where she is outnumbered 3 to 1 with men? I would say NO. You would say that she has every right to go there and it wouldn't be her fault at all for anything bad that happens to her period end of story. While I agree, no one would have the right to harm her or abuse her or rape her, she has to use common sense and simply not go there for it's a bad place.

 

I would venture to bet that you don't take your kids sight seeing in ghettos or BAD crime ridden areas because you know what MIGHT happen to you all should you go there.

[Soror]

Distracting yes!!! Now as a woman, and I am only asking for an opinion, not accusing you so don't feel that way, but should a well built man walk by in no shirt with rippling muscles showing, would it not make you think thoughts you otherwise wouldn't have thought at that moment?

 

It would make me think, ew, they should get dressed. Seeing some flesh doesn't automatically make me think lustful thoughts, that is rather a rare reaction.

[mymonkeybug]

If someone does shoot you, I think that to some degree you need to take responsibility for that, because you are choosing to display your opinions in a very ignorant and provocative manner. The shooter would still be at fault, of course, but really, you're just asking for it.

 

Very witty! :D

[Soror]

I don't believe the mindset of USA Christians obsessed with modesty is much different. I think it all stems from the same place.

 

:iagree: Sounds about the same to me on many levels.

[elegantlion]

Dangerous place to live...sure...does my husband see on of the bikini clad women and have sinful human thoughts? I would be naive to think he didn't. Do I have sinful thoughts if a well built man in swim trunks shows up? Yep! Not gonna' deny it. Do we both fight the urge to do anything about it? Sure do. Are there others that don't? Of course. We are responsible for our own thoughts as many of you have posted and I agree 100% but I also feel that to some degree as humans that we put ourselves into bad situations all the time by what we wear, how we speak, where we go... Should a single woman go to a bar and get drunk where she is outnumbered 3 to 1 with men? I would say NO. You would say that she has every right to go there and it wouldn't be her fault at all for anything bad that happens to her period end of story. While I agree, no one would have the right to harm her or abuse her or rape her, she has to use common sense and simply not go there for it's a bad place.

 

I would venture to bet that you don't take your kids sight seeing in ghettos or BAD crime ridden areas because you know what MIGHT happen to you all should you go there.

 

If you're looking at a person and your thoughts turn straight to lust, then you (rhetorical you) have an issue. If you look at a person and appreciate their god-given form and symmetry and the beauty that God gave to humans that's different. That's doesn't equate to wanting to jump into bed with that person.

 

ghettos have nothing to do with the modesty argument. There are places in this country where it is dangerous to stop at a stop sign. If you're at the beach and suddenly find yourself groping another individual because of the state of their dress, then yes, by all means, avoid the beach.

[Mrs Mungo]

Dangerous place to live...sure...does my husband see on of the bikini clad women and have sinful human thoughts? I would be naive to think he didn't. Do I have sinful thoughts if a well built man in swim trunks shows up? Yep! Not gonna' deny it. Do we both fight the urge to do anything about it? Sure do. Are there others that don't? Of course. We are responsible for our own thoughts as many of you have posted and I agree 100% but I also feel that to some degree as humans that we put ourselves into bad situations all the time by what we wear, how we speak, where we go... Should a single woman go to a bar and get drunk where she is outnumbered 3 to 1 with men? I would say NO. You would say that she has every right to go there and it wouldn't be her fault at all for anything bad that happens to her period end of story. While I agree, no one would have the right to harm her or abuse her or rape her, she has to use common sense and simply not go there for it's a bad place.

 

I would venture to bet that you don't take your kids sight seeing in ghettos or BAD crime ridden areas because you know what MIGHT happen to you all should you go there.

 

Do you think most women who are raped were drunk and alone in a bar with strange men? Statistics do not bear that out. Most women *know* their rapist.

 

Should *everyone* behave in manner that keeps them safer? Yes. Does that mean the preacher ministering in "the ghetto" was "asking for it" if he gets shot?

[justLisa]

Distracting yes!!! Now as a woman, and I am only asking for an opinion, not accusing you so don't feel that way, but should a well built man walk by in no shirt with rippling muscles showing, would it not make you think thoughts you otherwise wouldn't have thought at that moment? You are reading a text and just happen to look up to see that and suddenly rather than looking right back down at your text and continuing on your way with reading, you must stop your brain from focusing on the image you just saw and taking your thoughts to a lustful place. That is what I mean when I make a comment along the lines of a woman or in this case a man dressing a certain way are putting themselves into a situation where others are going to, in our sinful manner, have sinful thoughts.

 

I'd probably think whoa, nice chest, he must work out a lot. I see muscles all the time, I go to the gym. Some of the men there are nice, some are muscle freaks and stare at themselves too much and grunt a lot.

 

I wear tight workout pants that hit below the knee, and a tank top. Yeah I work my butt off to keep a tight butt, so what. I'm not wearing baggy pants because I can't do squats that way. But I am respected and anyone who works out at that gym knows I'd smash anyone upside the head with a dumbell if I herd anything nasty coming my way. But then again I listen to my ipod the whole time so who knows. It's not like I'm pursing my lips and shaking my hips near the men. I sweat like a pig and I don't try to draw attention. I don't even have much up top except for pectoral muscle so wearing a slim tank top for me is not very interesting.

[Lisbeth]

For my sons, daughters and my husband and me: no shoulders showing, also no midriffs, no cleavage, nothing above the knee for leg showing. We are LDS. For swimsuits, we allow shoulders but no midriffs or cleavag e to show.

[Delirium]

Any discussions of this topic always make me a bit uneasy.

There is a strand of 'men can't help themselves' that I find disturbing, inherent in the whole idea.

 

I tend to teach elegance and sustainable style rather than modesty. Some clothes are trashy, and those are unacceptable. Some clothes are attractive by means of being provocative, and those are undignified. Some clothes are attractive without being provocative, stunningly elegant--those are what I promote. I think that girls and women should have enough self-respect to choose that way, and that that is more for their own sake than for men's sake.

 

Wonderfully said, I could not agree more!:iagree:

[mymonkeybug]

Well, what started as a modesty matter has gotten somewhere I never intended it to go and I felt myself defending my own beliefs and well, so much for that.

 

I appreciate the commentary here and the opinions of all that have posted. We can all respectfully agree to disagree on this matter.

 

There will always be at least two sides to the fence here.

[Coffeetime]

:iagree::iagree:

 

The idea that it's a woman's responsibility to cover up so that a man doesn't have 'lustful thoughts' is repugnant. And we're pretty modest over here.

 

Man up. Be responsible for your own thoughts.

 

:iagree:

[justLisa]

Well, what started as a modesty matter has gotten somewhere I never intended it to go and I felt myself defending my own beliefs and well, so much for that.

 

I appreciate the commentary here and the opinions of all that have posted. We can all respectfully agree to disagree on this matter.

 

There will always be at least two sides to the fence here.

 

Because you are not talking about modesty for the right purpose. You had to throw in the comment regarding asking for something bad to happen and that makes it hard to have a serious conversation.

[tntgoodwin]

We try to teach our daughters to "act like ladies."

 

They wear shorts under their dresses if they are out in public, and often at home too. We expect them to sit without their legs sprawled all over the place, and that their skirts should cover their shorts at least. If not, they will have to change to a longer skirt/dress or shorts or pants.

 

If there is a decent chance that a top is low enough or loose enough to show nipplage, we have them wear some type of undershirt.

 

We have a hard time finding bathing suits that fit my oldest, she it pretty tall and very skinny. So she usually wears a two-piece tankini style that pretty much covers her belly.

 

As they get older, we will continue to teach them to be modest.

 

I do think modesty is cultural though. What is modest in Hawaii is different than what is modest in the jungles of South America, which is different than what is modest in Saudi Arabia, which is different than what is modest in West Texas.

 

The bulk of modesty is not drawing extra attention to yourself. If you are doing handstands, cartwheels, and splits in a thong bikini at the public beach where I take my daughters hoping to see sea turtles (really happened), I am going to consider you to not be classy. If you are doing that in private in your bedroom for your husband, then I won't judge that in a negative way at all.

 

Regarding cleavage... sometime a woman can help what she is showing and she is showing off to be noticed. Sometimes a woman can't really help it. If you are built in a way that you are wearing a regular shirt or top or dress or whatever, and it shows a little bit, well then, I have no issue with that. But if you are wearing a shirt cut to your belly button and complain that some guy has trouble keeping his gaze away, yeah, you have some responsibility in that.

 

Now, regarding rape, assaults, etc... I don't care if a woman is walking down the street completely naked, she doesn't deserve to be assaulted. That is purely the fault of the aggressor. And while we can strive to simply teach people to not rape each other, the fact is that there are evil people out there. Avoiding situations that could lead to danger is a critical part of self-defense, and you can believe that my daughters will know how to defend themselves.

[TheReader]

Distracting yes!!! Now as a woman, and I am only asking for an opinion, not accusing you so don't feel that way, but should a well built man walk by in no shirt with rippling muscles showing, would it not make you think thoughts you otherwise wouldn't have thought at that moment? You are reading a text and just happen to look up to see that and suddenly rather than looking right back down at your text and continuing on your way with reading, you must stop your brain from focusing on the image you just saw and taking your thoughts to a lustful place. That is what I mean when I make a comment along the lines of a woman or in this case a man dressing a certain way are putting themselves into a situation where others are going to, in our sinful manner, have sinful thoughts.

 

I think this leads to the question, what exactly is a sinful thought?

 

If I think "wow, he's hot!" or "gee, he's good looking!" --- is that sinful? I don't think it is; no different than thinking "Wow, what a gorgeous sunset!" or "what a beautiful painting" or whatever.

 

If I further that thought into "mmm-mmm, what I wouldn't give to touch those abs!" (or something like that) ---- yes, now we're crossing a line, or at least, I'd consider that crossing a line.

 

If I then dwell on that line of thinking and start imagining all the "whatever" that I would do with Mr. Eye Candy ---- yep, line crossed and then I've for sure lusted in my heart. But just the initial "wow, he looks good!" is not, imo, sinful thinking (and yes, I'd still say that if we turned it around to my dh thinking that about a woman).

 

*Even So* though, my thoughts are not his fault. Unless he's out & out flirting, in some way forcing me to interact with him, actively doing things to ramp up my thoughts and try to get me from A to B to C --- then he's not causing anything. And even then, I can still choose to look away, disengage, whatever. I just don't see how a person dresses being the CAUSE of someone else's thoughts/reactions and certainly not of his or her actions.

 

and, on a side note, I find it hilariously ironic that this is all started by a poster who signs her name as Mrs. Jack Sparrow.....sinful thoughts, much? :lol:

[Princess Peach]

I'd probably think whoa, nice chest, he must work out a lot. I see muscles all the time, I go to the gym. Some of the men there are nice, some are muscle freaks and stare at themselves too much and grunt a lot.

 

I wear tight workout pants that hit below the knee, and a tank top. Yeah I work my butt off to keep a tight butt, so what. I'm not wearing baggy pants because I can't do squats that way. But I am respected and anyone who works out at that gym knows I'd smash anyone upside the head with a dumbell if I herd anything nasty coming my way. But then again I listen to my ipod the whole time so who knows. It's not like I'm pursing my lips and shaking my hips near the men. I sweat like a pig and I don't try to draw attention. I don't even have much up top except for pectoral muscle so wearing a slim tank top for me is not very interesting.

 

:iagree: and :D

 

I'm not going to dress frumpy because there are some people who would judge me for dressing in things that fit (and excuuuse me for being in shape!).

 

I knew I shouldn't click on the link, but I did anyway. Made it halfway thru the transcript before I had to stop reading. Yuck! Sorry, I'm coming out of this stuff and it turned my stomach. :(

[mymonkeybug]

Because you are not talking about modesty for the right purpose. You had to throw in the comment regarding asking for something bad to happen and that makes it hard to have a serious conversation.

 

That was opinion just as I would feel that if you are traveling to a country loaded with civil unrest you are putting yourself in a potentially bad situation by being in an environment where you might be shot, harmed, killed even.

 

I personally wouldn't dress provocatively then go to a bar where there is by nature normally more men than woman and feel safe. I would be putting myself into what I feel to be a bad situation and would feel responsible partly if I ended up being groped or God forbid even worse. That is the gist of what I was trying to say. Others felt and still feel(which is fine)that should a woman do that and be molested or raped that she is in no way, shape, or form responsible for what happened to herself. I simply disagree. Stay away from situations that might prove to be bad. Isn't that basically what we teach our kids? Stay away from this person or that place because of what might happen. If I educate my child to stay away from a person because of reasons X,Y, or Z but he/she ignores that and goes to hang with said person then something happens because they are in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong person, well they have to take some responsibility for that.

[Princess Peach]

That was opinion just as I would feel that if you are traveling to a country loaded with civil unrest you are putting yourself in a potentially bad situation by being in an environment where you might be shot, harmed, killed even.

 

I personally wouldn't dress provocatively then go to a bar where there is by nature normally more men than woman and feel safe. I would be putting myself into what I feel to be a bad situation and would feel responsible partly if I ended up being groped or God forbid even worse. That is the gist of what I was trying to say. Others felt and still feel(which is fine)that should a woman do that and be molested or raped that she is in no way, shape, or form responsible for what happened to herself. I simply disagree. Stay away from situations that might prove to be bad. Isn't that basically what we teach our kids? Stay away from this person or that place because of what might happen. If I educate my child to stay away from a person because of reasons X,Y, or Z but he/she ignores that and goes to hang with said person then something happens because they are in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong person, well they have to take some responsibility for that.

 

:blink:

 

No, rape is never the victim's fault. Ever.

[itsheresomewhere]

I believe in a certain amount of "body privacy." BUT, I think there is a lot of room for interpretation when it comes to modesty.

 

I also think that the modesty movement that is currently popular among certain groups in the US, is inherently anti-woman. It's all about keeping men from stumbling versus having respect for yourself as a person. It's all about, "well, if a boy sees your legs, then he could be tempted, therefore, you cannot participate in sports." It's about "she is tempting me with her two piece swimsuit," even when her swimsuit covers all of her girl parts. That's wrong-headed, imo. It gives boys AND girls a false impression of what the Bible says and the responsibilities that we hold to one another. The poster

 

Women can never be modest or good or pious enough for some groups.

 

*Every* part of a woman's body can be sexualized, hence the burka.

 

Look through this website. It is very telling, imo. *Sevety-five percent* say that they have less respect for immodest girls. That is TOTALLY against the teachings of Christ. But, is the website focused on that? No. It is focused on whether men get excited when a the bra-strap of a girl or woman pokes out from under her shirt.

 

http://www.therebelution.com/modestysurvey/browse

 

:iagree: I think the modesty movement now is giving a lot of men a free pass in not be responsible for themselves.

[elegantlion]

You do realize there are more than a few women on this board that are victims of s*xual assault? They weren't hanging around bars either. Assaults don't just happen in dangerous situations, and I don't think all bars are dangerous situations (speaking from some experience here...they were just a place to hang out).

[mymonkeybug]

 

 

 

and, on a side note, I find it hilariously ironic that this is all started by a poster who signs her name as Mrs. Jack Sparrow.....sinful thoughts, much? :lol:

 

You are quite correct, very sinful indeed. I have never claimed to be perfect in any of this. Any hey, I loved the movies and like Pirates but nut in a lustful way. I like Rum too and many would say alcohol is a no-no.