Delirium Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 I don't believe it is solely a womans responsibility when it comes to this. I agree with you that we are not responsible for mens thoughts. We could dress like the Amish and still there would be men out there that lust after us. On the other hand, while I don't believe in any way, shape, or form that rape or sexual abuse in any fashion are OK, I do believe that if a woman chooses to dress provocatively and put herself in a bad situation, she to some degree is asking for something bad to happen to her and must take some responsibility for some of what happens to herself should she become victim of something. Please don't shoot me...just my opinion to which I am entitled. I won't shoot you, but this does make me feel very sad. This is slut shaming and even a knows it is an awful thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plink Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 (edited) If someone does shoot you, I think that to some degree you need to take responsibility for that, because you are choosing to display your opinions in a very ignorant and provocative manner. The shooter would still be at fault, of course, but really, you're just asking for it. :iagree: I think the modesty movement now is giving a lot of men a free pass in not be responsible for themselves. :iagree: This is my issue with the entire thing. I don't disagree with dressing in a non-slutty way. What I disagree with is the idea that men are innocent victims of women's clothing choices. That is just bizarre. Uh... Ignore the horrible grammar. Edited July 30, 2012 by LibertyH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymonkeybug Posted July 30, 2012 Author Share Posted July 30, 2012 :iagree: I think the modesty movement now is giving a lot of men a free pass in not be responsible for themselves. That is a valid point as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soror Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 That was opinion just as I would feel that if you are traveling to a country loaded with civil unrest you are putting yourself in a potentially bad situation by being in an environment where you might be shot, harmed, killed even. I personally wouldn't dress provocatively then go to a bar where there is by nature normally more men than woman and feel safe. I would be putting myself into what I feel to be a bad situation and would feel responsible partly if I ended up being groped or God forbid even worse. That is the gist of what I was trying to say. Others felt and still feel(which is fine)that should a woman do that and be molested or raped that she is in no way, shape, or form responsible for what happened to herself. I simply disagree. Stay away from situations that might prove to be bad. Isn't that basically what we teach our kids? Stay away from this person or that place because of what might happen. If I educate my child to stay away from a person because of reasons X,Y, or Z but he/she ignores that and goes to hang with said person then something happens because they are in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong person, well they have to take some responsibility for that. Except as Mrs. Mungo (iirc) stated that is not how or why rape happens. Rape is about power NOT about sex. It has nothing to do with being sexy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 :iagree: I think the modesty movement now is giving a lot of men a free pass in not be responsible for themselves. The modesty movement probably also has something to do with pornography problems. In my experience the congregations that harp endlessly about women dressing modestly to help men stay lust-free are ALSO the congregations that have men addicted to porn. A hyper-focus on modesty objectifies and sexualizes women in the same way that pornography does. The cure is to see women as people, not objects of lust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justLisa Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 That was opinion just as I would feel that if you are traveling to a country loaded with civil unrest you are putting yourself in a potentially bad situation by being in an environment where you might be shot, harmed, killed even. Being caught in cross fire = tragic. Being drug behind an alley and assaulted without your pants on = tragic. Neither did anything to "ask" for it. Victim blaming is just never going to be warmly welcomed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justLisa Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Though I will state I am raising my children to be aware of others. I am pretty sure they will not be walking in the city at midnight and alone. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 That was opinion just as I would feel that if you are traveling to a country loaded with civil unrest you are putting yourself in a potentially bad situation by being in an environment where you might be shot, harmed, killed even. So, the World Trade Center victims are partly to blame for their own demise? I mean, they had a fire and a huge bombing before the 9/11 attacks. It was a target and they knew it, right? Missionaries who are persecuted, kidnapped or killed in unstable countries or bad parts of town, they bring those things upon themselves? I personally wouldn't dress provocatively then go to a bar where there is by nature normally more men than woman and feel safe. I would be putting myself into what I feel to be a bad situation and would feel responsible partly if I ended up being groped or God forbid even worse. That is the gist of what I was trying to say. Others felt and still feel(which is fine)that should a woman do that and be molested or raped that she is in no way, shape, or form responsible for what happened to herself. I simply disagree. Stay away from situations that might prove to be bad. Isn't that basically what we teach our kids? Stay away from this person or that place because of what might happen. If I educate my child to stay away from a person because of reasons X,Y, or Z but he/she ignores that and goes to hang with said person then something happens because they are in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong person, well they have to take some responsibility for that. You are saying two different things here. Is it a good idea to take steps to keep ourselves safe? Yes, absolutely. Does that mean we bear some responsibility if someone rapes or kills us? No, never. These are two different statements. It is also *MISLEADING* to say things like this. It implies that women can somehow prevent bad things from happening. We can't. Most women know the men who rape them. In the case of stranger rape? It happens as often in public parks as it does at a bar or party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymonkeybug Posted July 30, 2012 Author Share Posted July 30, 2012 Again, I do appreciate the replies and the varying views here on this. While I don't obviously agree with I think anyone that have replied ;), I can and do respect each of you for your opinions and views. And "slut shaming"...never heard that before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nono Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 If you're looking at a person and your thoughts turn straight to lust, then you (rhetorical you) have an issue. If you look at a person and appreciate their god-given form and symmetry and the beauty that God gave to humans that's different. That's doesn't equate to wanting to jump into bed with that person. Precisely it for me. We live at the shore. I just got back from the beach. I saw 30? lifeguards this morning and about a dozen surf instructors who all looked fabulous. I didn't have an impure thought. Gosh, they were all so beautiful. I prefer to think of people as G*d's living/breathing artwork. And, I impart that idea to my children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymonkeybug Posted July 30, 2012 Author Share Posted July 30, 2012 So, the World Trade Center victims are partly to blame for their own demise? I mean, they had a fire and a huge bombing before the 9/11 attacks. It was a target and they knew it, right? Missionaries who are persecuted, kidnapped or killed in unstable countries or bad parts of town, they bring those things upon themselves? You are saying two different things here. Is it a good idea to take steps to keep ourselves safe? Yes, absolutely. Does that mean we bear some responsibility if someone rapes or kills us? No, never. These are two different statements. It is also *MISLEADING* to say things like this. It implies that women can somehow prevent bad things from happening. We can't. Most women know the men who rape them. In the case of stranger rape? It happens as often in public parks as it does at a bar or party. All I am suggesting is not putting ourselves in potentially bad situations. Can someone be molested or raped just by going to get groceries? Yes. I am not saying never leave your house though, again simply saying that we should diligently steer clear of places and situations that we know to be bad ones. Don't go to the grocery store in a crime ridden neighborhood. Go to one in a safer neighborhood and chances are greater nothing will happen but not totally ruled out. We all just agree to disagree and that is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tntgoodwin Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Except as Mrs. Mungo (iirc) stated that is not how or why rape happens. Rape is about power NOT about sex. It has nothing to do with being sexy. :iagree: The modesty movement probably also has something to do with pornography problems. In my experience the congregations that harp endlessly about women dressing modestly to help men stay lust-free are ALSO the congregations that have men addicted to porn. A hyper-focus on modesty objectifies and sexualizes women in the same way that pornography does. The cure is to see women as people, not objects of lust. I think I agree with you here. I definitely agree with the last sentence. I think the prevelance and acceptance of pornography in our culture has certainly led to an increase of people objectifying eachother (male and female). For people that struggle with that (the vast majority of Americans, I imagine), immodestly dressed people will catch their attention, and probably these people will have lustful thoughts. In our men's group, we spend a HUGE amount of our time focusing on purity. Yes, modesty is important, especially for the ladies, and they deal with that. But for the men, we definitely focus on changing our hearts and minds to be more like God. We have memory verses to help us when we are tempted. Internet filters, accountability partners, etc are all encourage. We definitely take the responsibility on ourselves to not lust after people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 The modesty movement probably also has something to do with pornography problems. In my experience the congregations that harp endlessly about women dressing modestly to help men stay lust-free are ALSO the congregations that have men addicted to porn. A hyper-focus on modesty objectifies and sexualizes women in the same way that pornography does. The cure is to see women as people, not objects of lust. This is a great point. And "slut shaming"...never heard that before. :) Warning, the "S word" is heavily used in the video below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingChris Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 And that link Mrs. Mungo had, shows that some guys think anything in immodest. Not only that, they also don't even know what is definitely an attractive device, even if they don't realize it. Overwhelming they said that twirling hair is not immodest. I agree with that, however, it is often a flirty behavior. Even if not a conscious behavior. I don't agree with the OP at all. Did you know that there are some rapists who prey on elderly women? Some who choose to rape only blondes or only brunettes? Since we are talking about predatory rapists (the more uncommon type of rape), it may make you feel more secure to dress modestly, but it won't make you safer. Yes, there is a greater danger at a place like a bar but you could go in there dressed as a nun and still be in greater danger. There are sickos who prey on patients in hospitals. THere are sickos who lust after kids in diapers. I can't believe that you are saying that if, by chance, some woman dressed in a low cut blouse get raped by a predatory rapist, she has anything to do with blame. Because if you are saying this, you logically would have to make the same case for someone who targets whatever clothes style you happen to wear =and as a former crime analyst volunteer who logged all sexual crime reports (along with robberies and burglaries) in the greater LA area, I can attest to the irrelevance of any modesty stance and the liklihood of being raped or sexually attacked in some way. I also have a MS in criminal justice and did all my coursework for a PhD in it too. You are so far off base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 All I am suggesting is not putting ourselves in potentially bad situations. Can someone be molested or raped just by going to get groceries? Yes. I am not saying never leave your house though, again simply saying that we should diligently steer clear of places and situations that we know to be bad ones. Don't go to the grocery store in a crime ridden neighborhood. Go to one in a safer neighborhood and chances are greater nothing will happen but not totally ruled out. So, if you cannot afford to live in a nice neighborhood, then you deserve what you get? Do you hear what you're saying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 A hyper-focus on modesty objectifies and sexualizes women in the same way that pornography does. The cure is to see women as people, not objects of lust. :iagree: Exactly! It is also *MISLEADING* to say things like this. It implies that women can somehow prevent bad things from happening. We can't. Most women know the men who rape them. In the case of stranger rape? It happens as often in public parks as it does at a bar or party. Yup. Blaming victims of sexual assault gives people a false sense of security — my daughter would never dress provocatively or go to "bad" places, so those things could never happen to her. Elderly nuns have been sexually assualted — it has nothing to do with how someone is dressed. Jackie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 So, if you cannot afford to live in a nice neighborhood, then you deserve what you get? Do you hear what you're saying? God forbid you don't have a car and have to walk. :glare: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymonkeybug Posted July 30, 2012 Author Share Posted July 30, 2012 Precisely it for me. We live at the shore. I just got back from the beach. I saw 30? lifeguards this morning and about a dozen surf instructors who all looked fabulous. I didn't have an impure thought. Gosh, they were all so beautiful. I prefer to think of people as G*d's living/breathing artwork. And, I impart that idea to my children. OK, you say that as have a couple other posters here I recall, that looking is OK and admiring is OK. Well the issue is though, many believe the admiring is sinful and lustful. Even if it doesn't cross the sexual, I want to bang him thought wave, the line has been crossed is what I believe some feel. I guess the opinions and thoughts put out here in responses, mine included, just show the great variances of beliefs regardless of religion/Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juniper Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 It is never okay to violate the boundaries of a man or woman by making one responsible for the inner thoughts of the other. Everyone has a choice to dwell or not. Having porn come up on my image search (which it did today in safe search mode) does not put me in danger of lusting after that sickness. These types of conversations are very repugnant. If immodesty had a direct correlation to the amount of assaults or rapes we would see less in more modest societies. This is not the case. Girls in sweats and sweatshirt, mommy jeans, burkha's, and grease stained tee's are raped every day. :glare: OP, you are sensitive to this right now, because of your son. :grouphug: The lust is there and needs to be dealt with, but it would be there if every woman wore burlap sacks and no makeup. Many men can look upon a beautiful, sensuous woman, and appreciate her beauty without it becoming lust...other cannot. The fault is not the beautiful women's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soror Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 All I am suggesting is not putting ourselves in potentially bad situations. Can someone be molested or raped just by going to get groceries? Yes. I am not saying never leave your house though, again simply saying that we should diligently steer clear of places and situations that we know to be bad ones. Don't go to the grocery store in a crime ridden neighborhood. Go to one in a safer neighborhood and chances are greater nothing will happen but not totally ruled out. We all just agree to disagree and that is fine. If you think that makes you safe then you are mistaken as others have said you need to look at the actual statistics of rape and violent crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juniper Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 OK, you say that as have a couple other posters here I recall, that looking is OK and admiring is OK. Well the issue is though, many believe the admiring is sinful and lustful. Even if it doesn't cross the sexual, I want to bang him thought wave, the line has been crossed is what I believe some feel. I guess the opinions and thoughts put out here in responses, mine included, just show the great variances of beliefs regardless of religion/Christianity. Where does this come from? Since when does appreciating beauty = sinful? :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 I notice the sermon is by CJ Maheney. I, personally, do not agree with Maheney's view toward women. I believe he objectifies women as part of a larger political and religious agenda. That opinion is the result of my own study and I don't wish to debate it; I just want to point out that we need to know who our teachers are when we listen to internet sermons or read articles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 (edited) I don't understand why we have so many modesty threads. My fil was a very religious man, and growing up in Europe, you know he wore a speedo his whole life. Until he just stopped, as he gained a belly as he aged. He was religious, but vain. lol Edited July 30, 2012 by LibraryLover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymonkeybug Posted July 30, 2012 Author Share Posted July 30, 2012 God forbid you don't have a car and have to walk. :glare: I give up!!!!!! I believe we all have to take responsibility for ourselves period end of story regardless of whether it's the way we think, dress, where we go for fun, what we watch, etc....and when we say or do something or go somewhere and something bad happens to us sometimes, we have to take responsibility for that too or at least partial responsibility. We live in a society where we are all too quick to blame everyone else for our poor choices. A husband cheats on his wife...most would say she is the victim, he is a dirty rat. Maybe, just maybe since it takes two to make a marriage work, it takes two to make it fall apart. Just maybe she wasn't the easiest to live with or whatever the case may be so she therefore needs to look at herself and their history together and accept that she has some of the blame to carry in it too. Just an example but I am sure I will be reamed a new one over that comment too. Good thing I am not emotionally weak. :tongue_smilie: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 If you think that makes you safe then you are mistaken as others have said you need to look at the actual statistics of rape and violent crime. http://www.rainn.org/statistics/ Approximately 2/3 of rapes were committed by someone known to the victim. 73% of sexual assaults were perpetrated by a non-stranger. 38% of rapists are a friend or acquaintance. 28% are an intimate. 7% are a relative. More than 50% of all rape/sexual assault incidents were reported by victims to have occured within 1 mile of their home or at their home. 4 in 10 take place at the victim's home. 2 in 10 take place at the home of a friend, neighbor, or relative. 1 in 12 take place in a parking garage. 43% of rapes occur between 6:00pm and midnight. 24% occur between midnight and 6:00am. The other 33% take place between 6:00am and 6:00pm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juniper Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 I don't understand why we have so many modesty threads. My fil was a very religious man, and growing up in Europe, you know he wore a speedo his whole life. Until he just stopped. lol I was just telling dh last night that we really need to take a european vacation with the kids in the summer. :D Seeing nudity as a regular thing makes it normal and desexualizes it, except for sexual circumstances. Hypersexualizing turns the mundane into erotica. :tongue_smilie: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenangelcat Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Except as Mrs. Mungo (iirc) stated that is not how or why rape happens. Rape is about power NOT about sex. It has nothing to do with being sexy. Actually that's not always true and it's unfortunate that people still fall back to that thinking. There's a very interesting discussion going on right now where men who have raped are sharing their stories and for the majority it was a situation where they assumed consent and were too concerned with their own lust that they didn't notice there was no consent or consent was removed. Some stopped when they realized but most continued on because "oh well, might as well finish now". That said, rapists are 100% responsible for their actions. As for the modesty thing, we're all about personal style here and what's appropriate for the situation. The religious modesty thing is completely rooted in the patriarchy imo and I want no part in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 We live in a society where we are all too quick to blame everyone else for our poor choices. Yes — like blaming the victim for the poor choices of the perpetrator. :glare: Jackie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Actually that's not always true and it's unfortunate that people still fall back to that thinking. There's a very interesting discussion going on right now where men who have raped are sharing their stories and for the majority it was a situation where they assumed consent and were too concerned with their own lust that they didn't notice there was no consent or consent was removed. Some stopped when they realized but most continued on because "oh well, might as well finish now". But what else would they say? Of course they're going to say they "thought she wanted it." Who's going to say, "yeah I knew it was rape, I just didn't care"? Jackie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymonkeybug Posted July 30, 2012 Author Share Posted July 30, 2012 Yes — like blaming the victim for the poor choices of the perpetrator. :glare: Jackie How the heck do you delete a thread altogether? I am just as guilty of this entire thing going somewhere it was never meant to go. UGH!!!!! Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Embassy Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 OK, you say that as have a couple other posters here I recall, that looking is OK and admiring is OK. Well the issue is though, many believe the admiring is sinful and lustful. Even if it doesn't cross the sexual, I want to bang him thought wave, the line has been crossed is what I believe some feel. Wow, really? Seeing someone as attractive is sinful to some? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Where does this come from? Since when does appreciating beauty = sinful? :confused: I don't know how new this ideas is. I've read (although I cannot verify right now) that no artists were buried in Westminster Abbey because sin enters through the eyes. Which, I think is unfair since the artists were responsible for educating the masses about religion before most people could read. Also, Lord Byron is buried there...so....:tongue_smilie: Actually that's not always true and it's unfortunate that people still fall back to that thinking. There's a very interesting discussion going on right now where men who have raped are sharing their stories and for the majority it was a situation where they assumed consent and were too concerned with their own lust that they didn't notice there was no consent or consent was removed. Some stopped when they realized but most continued on because "oh well, might as well finish now". So, you prefer to believe RAPISTS over the women who were raped? Because people in prison always tell the truth about their circumstances? Because nobody likes to rationalize their actions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cindy in FL. Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 I think everyone should dress modestly. Not so that they don't cause their fellow human beings to stumble, but for the sake of their own dignity. I just don't think it's dignified to go around with your stuff hanging out so much. :001_smile: Cindy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheReader Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 I was just telling dh last night that we really need to take a european vacation with the kids in the summer. :D Seeing nudity as a regular thing makes it normal and desexualizes it, except for sexual circumstances. Hypersexualizing turns the mundane into erotica. :tongue_smilie: This really is so very true. I was so worried before we moved to Brazil, fearing what my poor innocent boys would be exposed to while living here (the older 2 both have or are going through puberty surrounded by thong bikinis, spaghetti strap tank tops, short shorts, etc....). Now that we're here, even this skin-everywhere culture has modesty, and skin becomes just skin and come to find out, I was worried for no reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymonkeybug Posted July 30, 2012 Author Share Posted July 30, 2012 But what else would they say? Of course they're going to say they "thought she wanted it." Who's going to say, "yeah I knew it was rape, I just didn't care"? Jackie Well if they were taking responsibility for THEIR actions like they should, then the perpetrator would say that. Just like we all should say, yes, I had a lustful thought or yes, I broke it, or yes, I stole it were we guilty of any of those things. Or gee maybe, yes, I was molested and shouldn't have been and it is not OK for him to have done that but the lesson I learned is that I won't dress in a fashion that has my breasts hanging out for all the world to see nor will I go to that type of place again. It sucks what happened to me, but I share in the responsibility for I knowingly went into it dressed poorly and had no business going into that place. I do feel a modestly dressed woman riding a bus to the grocery store who happens to be raped is truly 100% a victim with no responsibility for what happened to her and I apologize that anything I posted earlier made anyone think I felt differently but I will stand behind my opinion that the scantily clad woman dressed like a two bit floozie hanging at the crime ridden street corner putting herself on display is 100% completely innocent of what happens to her. No, I don't feel all the little boys raped and molested by Catholic Priests asked for it but I would suggest to any Catholic friends now that we have seen this play out publicly for years, not leave their children unattended with their Priest. Sad but...one bad egg does tend to ruin it for all the good ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 This really is so very true. I was so worried before we moved to Brazil, fearing what my poor innocent boys would be exposed to while living here (the older 2 both have or are going through puberty surrounded by thong bikinis, spaghetti strap tank tops, short shorts, etc....). Now that we're here, even this skin-everywhere culture has modesty, and skin becomes just skin and come to find out, I was worried for no reason. And in my experience, it becomes a lot more about attitude and behavior, which is what modesty and protecting innocence is *really* about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 My fil was a very religious man, and growing up in Europe, you know he wore a speedo his whole life. Until he just stopped, as he gained a belly as he aged. He was religious, but vain. lol I was just telling dh last night that we really need to take a european vacation with the kids in the summer. :D Seeing nudity as a regular thing makes it normal and desexualizes it, except for sexual circumstances. Isn't is odd that on the same European beaches where women are topless and in skimpy bottoms, the men are in Speedos — where "lust" would be pretty apparent, lol. And yet you don't see hundreds of men with flag poles in their Speedos. So I guess European men, who are around nudity all the time, do know how to control their thoughts. And yet, in certain religious circles, the sight of a bra strap or an inch of cleavage would cause a man to "stumble"? IMHO, he's the one with the problem, not the girl in the tank top. Hypersexualizing turns the mundane into erotica. :tongue_smilie: To the point that some people feel compelled to put pants on Greek statues. :lol: Jackie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Turning appreciation of the human form into a sin is definitely a problem. I give up!!!!!! I believe we all have to take responsibility for ourselves period end of story regardless of whether it's the way we think, dress, where we go for fun, what we watch, etc....and when we say or do something or go somewhere and something bad happens to us sometimes, we have to take responsibility for that too or at least partial responsibility. We live in a society where we are all too quick to blame everyone else for our poor choices. A husband cheats on his wife...most would say she is the victim, he is a dirty rat. Maybe, just maybe since it takes two to make a marriage work, it takes two to make it fall apart. Just maybe she wasn't the easiest to live with or whatever the case may be so she therefore needs to look at herself and their history together and accept that she has some of the blame to carry in it too. Just an example but I am sure I will be reamed a new one over that comment too. Good thing I am not emotionally weak. :tongue_smilie: :svengo: It is never, not ever the cheated-on spouse's fault when there is infidelity. Could the cheated-on spouse be culpable in a failing marriage? Sure. But the cheating is always the fault of the spouse that chooses to cheat. If John cheated on Mary, maybe it was because John chose to cheat instead of because Mary didn't put out enough. Sure, he might use that as a justification and absolutely that can cause emotional distance in a relationship, but SHE did not MAKE him cheat. Men and women are responsible for their own actions, not the actions of others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymonkeybug Posted July 30, 2012 Author Share Posted July 30, 2012 I do feel a modestly dressed woman riding a bus to the grocery store who happens to be raped is truly 100% a victim with no responsibility for what happened to her and I apologize that anything I posted earlier made anyone think I felt differently but I will stand behind my opinion that the scantily clad woman dressed like a two bit floozie hanging at the crime ridden street corner putting herself on display is 100% completely innocent of what happens to her. No, I don't feel all the little boys raped and molested by Catholic Priests asked for it but I would suggest to any Catholic friends now that we have seen this play out publicly for years, not leave their children unattended with their Priest. Sad but...one bad egg does tend to ruin it for all the good ones. I meant to say "is not 100% completely innocent..." sorry, I left out the NOT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Well if they were taking responsibility for THEIR actions like they should, then the perpetrator would say that. Just like we all should say, yes, I had a lustful thought or yes, I broke it, or yes, I stole it were we guilty of any of those things. Or gee maybe, yes, I was molested and shouldn't have been and it is not OK for him to have done that but the lesson I learned is that I won't dress in a fashion that has my breasts hanging out for all the world to see nor will I go to that type of place again. It sucks what happened to me, but I share in the responsibility for I knowingly went into it dressed poorly and had no business going into that place. I do feel a modestly dressed woman riding a bus to the grocery store who happens to be raped is truly 100% a victim with no responsibility for what happened to her and I apologize that anything I posted earlier made anyone think I felt differently but I will stand behind my opinion that the scantily clad woman dressed like a two bit floozie hanging at the crime ridden street corner putting herself on display is 100% completely innocent of what happens to her. No, I don't feel all the little boys raped and molested by Catholic Priests asked for it but I would suggest to any Catholic friends now that we have seen this play out publicly for years, not leave their children unattended with their Priest. Sad but...one bad egg does tend to ruin it for all the good ones. :eek: And this is why I should know better than to ever venture into these threads. Wow. Is that what you think Jesus would say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymonkeybug Posted July 30, 2012 Author Share Posted July 30, 2012 Turning appreciation of the human form into a sin is definitely a problem. :svengo: It is never, not ever the cheated-on spouse's fault when there is infidelity. Could the cheated-on spouse be culpable in a failing marriage? Sure. But the cheating is always the fault of the spouse that chooses to cheat. If John cheated on Mary, maybe it was because John chose to cheat instead of because Mary didn't put out enough. Sure, he might use that as a justification and absolutely that can cause emotional distance in a relationship, but SHE did not MAKE him cheat. Men and women are responsible for their own actions, not the actions of others. I agree that the cheating spouse made a poor choice and should have handled the situation differently, however, I also believe the cheated on spouse needs to accept that he/she may have helped drive the wedge in the marriage that ultimately lead the cheater to what they did. I know that will be twisted to into meaning what it doesn't but oh well, I am used to it now today. :001_smile: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheReader Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 And in my experience, it becomes a lot more about attitude and behavior, which is what modesty and protecting innocence is *really* about. Yes, very much so. That's been my experience as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nono Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Isn't is odd that on the same European beaches where women are topless and in skimpy bottoms, the men are in Speedos — where "lust" would be pretty apparent, lol. And yet you don't see hundreds of men with flag poles in their Speedos. Jackie said flag pole! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: I nominate this as the post of the day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymonkeybug Posted July 30, 2012 Author Share Posted July 30, 2012 :eek: And this is why I should know better than to ever venture into these threads. Wow. Is that what you think Jesus would say? No, Jesus wouldn't say that because he is the perfect son of God. I am sadly just a wretched sinful human; imperfect in EVERY way, shape, and form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 :eek: And this is why I should know better than to ever venture into these threads. Wow. Is that what you think Jesus would say? Yeah, you know Jesus. He hated all the floozies and harlots and wouldn't have anything to do with them. Oh, wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymonkeybug Posted July 30, 2012 Author Share Posted July 30, 2012 Jackie said flag pole! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: I nominate this as the post of the day! :cheers2: I drink to that!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galatea Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 That was opinion just as I would feel that if you are traveling to a country loaded with civil unrest you are putting yourself in a potentially bad situation by being in an environment where you might be shot, harmed, killed even. I personally wouldn't dress provocatively then go to a bar where there is by nature normally more men than woman and feel safe. I would be putting myself into what I feel to be a bad situation and would feel responsible partly if I ended up being groped or God forbid even worse. That is the gist of what I was trying to say. Others felt and still feel(which is fine)that should a woman do that and be molested or raped that she is in no way, shape, or form responsible for what happened to herself. I simply disagree. Stay away from situations that might prove to be bad. Isn't that basically what we teach our kids? Stay away from this person or that place because of what might happen. If I educate my child to stay away from a person because of reasons X,Y, or Z but he/she ignores that and goes to hang with said person then something happens because they are in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong person, well they have to take some responsibility for that. You completely missed the point of the pool/beach analogy earlier. If dressing immodestly meant that women are "asking for it" or it's partially her responsibility if she gets raped, do you think that means all women at pools and beaches should expect to get raped, and it's their fault if they do? Because those women are dressed less modestly than a woman in a short skirt or low-cut top. So what exactly do you think is so immodest that women should bear responsibility for their rape? And if women who get raped bear some responsibility, what about children? Maybe if they weren't so nice to that weird neighbor guy, they wouldn't get molested? Maybe that little girl's shorts were too short? Maybe that little boy liked baseball too much with the wrong person? Do you see where this line of thinking takes you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 I agree that the cheating spouse made a poor choice and should have handled the situation differently, however, I also believe the cheated on spouse needs to accept that he/she may have helped drive the wedge in the marriage that ultimately lead the cheater to what they did. I know that will be twisted to into meaning what it doesn't but oh well, I am used to it now today. :001_smile: Many people have marriage issues without infidelity. marriage does take work, there was a recent thread on whether you felt your marriage was easy or not. Just because a marriage has problems, doesn't give the other the right to fall into bed with another. It's always a choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Jackie said flag pole! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: I nominate this as the post of the day! :iagree: You completely missed the point of the pool/beach analogy earlier. If dressing immodestly meant that women are "asking for it" or it's partially her responsibility if she gets raped, do you think that means all women at pools and beaches should expect to get raped, and it's their fault if they do? Because those women are dressed less modestly than a woman in a short skirt or low-cut top. So what exactly do you think is so immodest that women should bear responsibility for their rape? And if women who get raped bear some responsibility, what about children? Maybe if they weren't so nice to that weird neighbor guy, they wouldn't get molested? Maybe that little girl's shorts were too short? Maybe that little boy liked baseball too much with the wrong person? Do you see where this line of thinking takes you? Or if they didn't like football. :glare: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galatea Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Well if they were taking responsibility for THEIR actions like they should, then the perpetrator would say that. Just like we all should say, yes, I had a lustful thought or yes, I broke it, or yes, I stole it were we guilty of any of those things. Or gee maybe, yes, I was molested and shouldn't have been and it is not OK for him to have done that but the lesson I learned is that I won't dress in a fashion that has my breasts hanging out for all the world to see nor will I go to that type of place again. It sucks what happened to me, but I share in the responsibility for I knowingly went into it dressed poorly and had no business going into that place. I do feel a modestly dressed woman riding a bus to the grocery store who happens to be raped is truly 100% a victim with no responsibility for what happened to her and I apologize that anything I posted earlier made anyone think I felt differently but I will stand behind my opinion that the scantily clad woman dressed like a two bit floozie hanging at the crime ridden street corner putting herself on display is 100% completely innocent of what happens to her. No, I don't feel all the little boys raped and molested by Catholic Priests asked for it but I would suggest to any Catholic friends now that we have seen this play out publicly for years, not leave their children unattended with their Priest. Sad but...one bad egg does tend to ruin it for all the good ones. Catholic priests are by no means the only people who molest children. Do you never leave your children alone with anyone? What about their father? You know a lot of kids are molested by their fathers, right? Make sure you don't leave your girls with him, or it's your fault. Do you think it's possible to rape a prostitute? If you don't, you should stop posting here and start thinking about your worldview. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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