Penn State Sanctions - What do you think?

[weaver_67579]

There is actually a lot written about the usefulness of group or collective punishments. These punishments can be very effective when we don't know with certainty who was at fault. You have to remember that the NCAA doesn't care about Sandusky, it is the government who has tried him criminally. The NCAA is punishing the people who knew about the abuse and looked the other way. THOSE people are ones that we may never know, because they gain nothing by admitting it but looking bad publicly. So there are people out there who let boys be raped because they wanted to protect football programs and money. Group sanctions are used to punish them.

 

If you're actually interested in understanding the reasons behind group punishment this is an academic piece published by UCONN that explains and evaluates the use of collective punishment.

 

It was in elementary school... but I'm still not ok with punishing innocent people-ever. I hated it in first grade and still hate it now...

[weaver_67579]

When you benefit from an entity that has done evil, then you get harmed when the entity is punished. That's the math. Too bad Jerry didn't consider the innocent people who would be harmed by his actions. Too bad Joe & Co. didn't consider the innocent people who would be harmed by their INactions.

 

See Joe. See Joe Coach. See Team Win.

 

Hear Boys Be Abused. See No Evil. Speak No Evil.

 

Have No Legacy.

 

I don't really care if he was an effective coach if he was an ineffective human being when it mattered most.

 

innocent people that would pay... the boys, the Penn State students, faculty, staff, alumni, community and even the residents of PA since it is a state university and partly funded by the state... and my taxes:glare:

 

Nobody asked anyone to care if he was an effective coach? Boy people keep bringing that up... If you all didn't read all of my posts, it was in reference to the fact that I have seen some people comment in a derogitory manner about the fans that still seem to like Joe Pa and Penn State in general. My point was that He can be both and effective coach that they admired and someone that covered up Jerry Sandusky's crimes. Both may be true and they are not mutually exclusive. People can do both good and bad things. One does not make the other untrue... gee will people finially get that...;)

[pdalley]

and am pretty sure I never said I was... I find what I perceive as a lack of caring for the seemingly acceptable "collateral damage" very sad. A lot of people do seem to be pretending the inevitable collateral damage won't happen or doesn't at all matter. There will be some to which it matters a great deal. Obviously what the boys went through can never be undone. I still will not trivialize the impact on individuals and the whole community. I still don't get the well at least it isn't this bad... so that must make it ok argument. I find neither to be ok.

 

I can also assure you that the entire culture of Penn State is not obsessed with football... being as I am included in that as an alumnus I am not at all a football fan ;)

 

 

Not saying it doesn't matter. Just that it happens. There's no way around it. So should we never punish any wrong doing because some innocent person might get hurt?

 

Penn State - the institution - let the program take priority over stopping a predator. The program needs to dismantled. Completely.

 

And I don't believe in moral relativism. I think there are things worse than what I'm going through at the moment and there are lines that should not be crossed - ever.

Edited July 24, 2012 by pdalley

[Rivka]

I think he has the integrity to not want t this way, and to be sad that Joe never got a chance to give his side.

 

You know what? If Joe Paterno hadn't lied and covered up what happened all the way to his deathbed, he would have had the opportunity to give his side. This is like the guy in the story who murdered both his parents and argued that the courts should show him mercy because he was an orphan. You don't get to have sympathy for "not being able to tell your side of the story" when you spent the rest of your life making sure the story never got out!

 

The more people shriek about how terrible the sanctions are for JoePa's legacy, and Penn State football players, and the alumni, and the university, the more I understand why the sanctions were handed down. It's all about protecting football, straight to the end. If the words "protecting innocents" come out of your mouth and you're referring to linebackers instead of raped 12-year-olds, you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

[Rivka]

I can also assure you that the entire culture of Penn State is not obsessed with football... being as I am included in that as an alumnus I am not at all a football fan ;)

 

For someone who claims not to be a football fan, you sure have devoted a lot of energy to defending Penn State's football coach and football legacy.

[Kathryn]

You know what? If Joe Paterno hadn't lied and covered up what happened all the way to his deathbed, he would have had the opportunity to give his side. This is like the guy in the story who murdered both his parents and argued that the courts should show him mercy because he was an orphan. You don't get to have sympathy for "not being able to tell your side of the story" when you spent the rest of your life making sure the story never got out!

 

The more people shriek about how terrible the sanctions are for JoePa's legacy, and Penn State football players, and the alumni, and the university, the more I understand why the sanctions were handed down. It's all about protecting football, straight to the end. If the words "protecting innocents" come out of your mouth and you're referring to linebackers instead of raped 12-year-olds, you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

 

:iagree:

 

If you are part of any institution, be it a college, a company, a state, or a nation, thats leadership has stooped to such a morally reprehensible low, you suffer collateral damage when that entity is punished, no matter your own personal distance from those in charge. That's just the way it works. It's not the "fault" of those doling out punishment. The blame is on the criminals alone.

[weaver_67579]

The more people shriek about how terrible the sanctions are for JoePa's legacy, and Penn State football players, and the alumni, and the university, the more I understand why the sanctions were handed down. It's all about protecting football, straight to the end. If the words "protecting innocents" come out of your mouth and you're referring to linebackers instead of raped 12-year-olds, you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

 

Why does it have to be either or? Why can't what happened to the boys be horrifying and wrong? and the punishing of people that had nothing to do with it also be wrong? I get tired of saying over and over and over that nobody I have every heard or read of had thought what the boys went through was anything but horrifying or that those that were responsible for it should be punished to the full extent of the law. I have read every post on this thread and earlier today the other thread and written many myself and I have not seen that stated or even seemingly implied. I also have not seen anyone state that there should be no punishment of those involved. Where are people getting that idea? I will also not be ashamed for feeling that it is also wrong to punish innocent people.

[Denise in Florida]

Maybe if they scream loudly enough from a basement, someone will hear them. The wife, at least, should try it.

 

Anyway, yes, there are a lot of innocent victims in this (maybe a better term would be "collateral damage?"): current football players, the students, the community itself that will surely suffer a loss of revenue. At the same time, these populations also BENEFITED from Paterno & Company's silence. Now they are suffering from it. But the way I see it, the innocent people who will be harmed by the NCAA's punishment are victims of Sandusky (and Paterno et al,) not the NCAA.

 

To put it more simply, if a parent commits a crime and has to spend a number of years in jail, the children are being "punished" with loss of a parent. That isn't the fault of the legal system, it's the fault of the parent who committed the crime.

 

 

You have expressed what I have been thinking but could not quite describe.

 

I know this hurts the school, the players, the students, etc., they were there for the wild ride of money and fame and now they will be there for the crash. Somewhere in the culture the message was sent that fame was worth any price, that attitude does not grow in a vacuum.

 

What really matters is how they react and build from here. That will determine the future of the school.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

innocent people that would pay... the boys, the Penn State students, faculty, staff, alumni, community and even the residents of PA since it is a state university and partly funded by the state... and my taxes:glare:

 

This is where I am disconnecting with some of the PSU folks.

I agree that shutting down the program would have had a greater impact than many realize, and I feel the same about the Cleary Act being used to suspend federal financial aid. Those acts are so punitive and so far reaching that I believe they punish too many people who had no knowledge of what was going on in the athletic department.

 

HOWEVER, I do believe reasonable sanctions from the NCAA are justified. Paterno, Spanier, Curley, and Schultz engaged in conduct that resulted in a child predator not being reported to the proper authorities, which allowed the predator to continue to prey on children. Not only did they not report Sandusky, but they still allowed him access to PSU facilities. Finally, when called to testify in front of a grand jury, at least 3 of those mentioned previously likely perjured themselves, as per evidence the PSU President and BOT have accepted as part of the Freeh report.

 

While the NCAA is not responsible for prosecuting crimes, it is responsible for making sure administrators of members schools follow all NCAA bylaws, which do include an ethics clause. The actions committed by the 4 individuals above all occurred while they were acting within their official capacity for PSU. It is reasonable that the NCAA sanctioned PSU for its administrators committing crimes and engaging in an (at best) unethical decision to not report a possible crime to protect the institution. The NCAA is responsible for policing the actions made by representatives of a member on behalf of the school, whether they are players, boosters, coaches, or administrators. When an infraction is committed on behalf of the school by one of its representatives, the representative, school, or both can be sanctioned.

 

While the sanctions imposed are quite severe and will have a lasting impact on the program, they do have less of an impact outside of the football program than what would have happened under the death penalty. While local businesses may see some decline, games will still be played, and the economic impact should be no different than if PSU entered a football down swing. The players are not being unduly punished, as they have the opportunity to decide within the next year whether they want to stay at PSU, or transfer without a penalty.

 

Contrary to the JoePa defenders, there is reason to believe he did know about Sandusky's proclivities at least to some degree, and any involvement in the cover up certainly puts a stain on his name. Removing the victories under his name is the only penalty that can be given to him, and it is likely he is getting off quite easily. He could have done more. He should have done more. He didn't.

 

Nobody asked anyone to care if he was an effective coach? Boy people keep bringing that up... If you all didn't read all of my posts, it was in reference to the fact that I have seen some people comment in a derogitory manner about the fans that still seem to like Joe Pa and Penn State in general. My point was that He can be both and effective coach that they admired and someone that covered up Jerry Sandusky's crimes. Both may be true and they are not mutually exclusive. People can do both good and bad things. One does not make the other untrue... gee will people finially get that...;)

No one today discusses whether or not John Wilkes Booth was a quality actor.

Joe Pa was a fine coach for at least part of his career. He also failed greatly as a man at a pivotal moment. Fair or not, that will define him to many, and rightfully so. Jerry Sandusky was considered a hero to many, many kids he didn't molest. We don't talk about that either, do we?

Edited July 24, 2012 by ChocolateReignRemix

[weaver_67579]

For someone who claims not to be a football fan, you sure have devoted a lot of energy to defending Penn State's football coach and football legacy.

 

I never said he wasn't guilty. I never said he did the right things. I never even said I liked him. Where did you see any of that? I am not a football fan, but I do love Penn State. As someone else posted, I am not for revisionist history... If Penn State players won games... they won games and just saying they did not, will not change history. If Joe Pa did good things he did good things. He also didn't do what he should have when it was the right thing to do. That does not make the good things he had no longer true, but it also doesn not make the good things the only things that are true. Boy maybe you all need to read all of my posts... I'm getting tired of typing the same thing over and over:tongue_smilie:

[LibraryLover]

AS it stands know, I would not send a kid of mine to Penn State at this point, even with given free tuition & room & board. They have shown themselves untrustworthy to the top, to say the least, and incapable of comapssion or the ability to understand right from wrong.

 

They are/were motivatd only by $. That breaks my heart, as there so many fabulous Penn State profs and employees. I have friends who work there. They are devastated and feel beyond betrayed. They loved Joe. They felt part of something special. But he lived a lie. He allowed evil to flourish ---for football. He looked the other way while children were hideously harmed. As wonderful a person he may haven been, he was able to compartmentalize this horror for his program/career. That says as much about the system as it does about JoePa himself. He was on a trainwreck to hell, and he knew it. I'm sure his protective words on his death bed was his prayer that it would all pass.

 

My opinion is that Penn State should shut down football for 5 (or more )years. Just shut it all down. Clean house. Revamp the facilites. Hire new people etc. Just dump football today. Yesterday. Beg forgiveness, admit the tragedy, and put verbal sanctions on Paterno's family. They need to shut up. It's sad that they are in such deep denial. We know Joe didn't child rape, but he let child rape happen.

 

Penn State has a lot to offer beyond football. The alum will continue to fund the program for however long they shut it down. But, imo, it would do wonders to help Penn to lose it's sullied, hideous current rep. When they have paid the price- no glorious football team, no giant money from commercial TV, they might gain respect again.

 

Football is not God, no matter if some people think so. Do the right thing. Shut it down, and come back stronger, draw the line in the sand that children are not yours to abuse. Come back in a few year with dignity. Take care of those kids financially, even as they were nearly (or fullly) emotionally destroyed.

Edited July 24, 2012 by LibraryLover

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I never said he wasn't guilty. I never said he did the right things. I never even said I liked him. Where did you see any of that? I am not a football fan, but I do love Penn State. As someone else posted, I am not for revisionist history... If Penn State players won games... they won games and just saying they did not, will not change history. If Joe Pa did good things he did good things. He also didn't do what he should have when it was the right thing to do. That does not make the good things he had no longer true, but it also doesn not make the good things the only things that are true. Boy maybe you all need to read all of my posts... I'm getting tired of typing the same thing over and over:tongue_smilie:

 

You do understand that some actions are so heinous they can over shadow any good the individual has done in the past, right?

[Juniper]

Why does it have to be either or? Why can't what happened to the boys be horrifying and wrong? and the punishing of people that had nothing to do with it also be wrong? I get tired of saying over and over and over that nobody I have every heard or read of had thought what the boys went through was anything but horrifying or that those that were responsible for it should be punished to the full extent of the law. I have read every post on this thread and earlier today the other thread and written many myself and I have not seen that stated or even seemingly implied. I also have not seen anyone state that there should be no punishment of those involved. Where are people getting that idea? I will also not be ashamed for feeling that it is also wrong to punish innocent people.

I am going to repost what I posted on the other Penn state thread a couple days ago. Just read it. Think about it being your son.

 

I have been the victim in a similar institution type of scandal. I have lived through the attempts at cover ups and the whole "innocent people will suffer" mentality.

 

So here are my thoughts as a victim. If the football program was the central point for the incidences, its fame, its power, its draw...everything about the football program, then shutting it down for a couple years would help in my healing. I realize that certain community businesses might suffer, but I am well aware that those businesses flourished as a result of football program that was so idolized it was deemed untouchable for many years.

 

Would football scholarship students suffer? Yes. And I think everything should be done to find them an alternative university with PSU footing the bill for them. It is PSU's job to make sure as few innocents don't suffer, but there should be consequences to the football program.

 

If you have not been the victim of something like this than you cannot imagine the nausea, anger, sadness, devastation, pain, and fear at realizing that many people put food on their plates by supporting a culture that allowed you to be victimized. As a victim you know that they did not officially "know," but you also know that their family vacation to Disney, their turkey dinner with the trimmings, their kids soccer registrations was quite probably paid for with money that was earned because of football culture that forced you to pay the ultimate price.

 

So, while I do not think the various other sports, educational departments and community as whole should be punished, I do think the football program should go for awhile. Maybe not in totality, but definitively not in allowed to compete at the NCAA level.

[Joker]

The student in this article is why I'm glad the NCAA did what it did. The main student in that article is mad because he believes the sanctions are unfair and calls Joe Pa a mentor in the end. Paterno should be no one's mentor right now because he looked the other way while boys were raped.

 

The sports/football culture had become so important to the university, staff, students, town, and state that grown men looked the other way because they felt they needed to protect it. I can't fathom the idea that a football team should think itself more important than little boys.

[Trish]

You know what? If Joe Paterno hadn't lied and covered up what happened all the way to his deathbed, he would have had the opportunity to give his side. This is like the guy in the story who murdered both his parents and argued that the courts should show him mercy because he was an orphan. You don't get to have sympathy for "not being able to tell your side of the story" when you spent the rest of your life making sure the story never got out!

 

The more people shriek about how terrible the sanctions are for JoePa's legacy, and Penn State football players, and the alumni, and the university, the more I understand why the sanctions were handed down. It's all about protecting football, straight to the end. If the words "protecting innocents" come out of your mouth and you're referring to linebackers instead of raped 12-year-olds, you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

 

:iagree:

[weaver_67579]

Not saying it doesn't matter. Just that it happens. There's no way around it. So should we never punish any wrong doing because some innocent person might get hurt?

 

Penn State - the institution - let the program take priority over stopping a predator. The program needs to dismantled. Completely.

 

And I don't believe in moral relativism. I think there are things worse than what I'm going through at the moment and there are lines that should not be crossed - ever.

 

I do believe that people should be punished and severely... if they committed the crime, hid the crime or had anything to do with the crime... either criminally, in civil court or by being fired. Obviously, their families will also be collateral damage. The university will also be sued for huge gobs of money by the victims, as will the people directly involved.

 

I just think the impact on other people that had absolutely nothing to do with the crime or cover-up that will be punished should not be taken lightly. I am not accusing you of doing so... but I have seen some comments on various boards and forums to the effect that the whole university should be shut down, that all collegiate sports should be shut down and who cares about the collateral damage since it is nothing compared to what happened to the boys... Because I am not brushing the collateral damage under the rug and I am vocal about it I seem to be being accused of all kinds of things... including thinking losing a job is the same as a child being raped...or that I'm trying to protect Joe Pa's or Penn State football's legacy...and who knows what else... I'd better go check and see what other accusation I can find...:tongue_smilie:

[weaver_67579]

You do understand that some actions are so heinous they can over shadow any good the individual has done in the past, right?

 

that one side does not make the other side untrue-no matter how much you might hate someone or what they have done. I gave no comment as to what I thought of Joe Pa as a person or what will be understood about him in the future. In fact I stated that I didn't know him well enough to form a final opinion about him and I was waiting to see what other evidence and such shakes out in the investigations to come. As for in general, sure there are people or institutions we remember only for the great good or great evil they have done. That does not make the opposite of what we remeber, the good or bad they did that is not on the forefront, untrue or not historically accurate. How is that for a nerdy response?;)

[Trish]

I do believe that people should be punished and severely... if they committed the crime, hid the crime or had anything to do with the crime... either criminally, in civil court or by being fired. Obviously, their families will also be collateral damage. The university will also be sued for huge gobs of money by the victims, as will the people directly involved.

 

I just think the impact on other people that had absolutely nothing to do with the crime or cover-up that will be punished should not be taken lightly. I am not accusing you of doing so... but I have seen some comments on various boards and forums to the effect that the whole university should be shut down, that all collegiate sports should be shut down and who cares about the collateral damage since it is nothing compared to what happened to the boys... Because I am not brushing the collateral damage under the rug and I am vocal about it I seem to be being accused of all kinds of things... including thinking losing a job is the same as a child being raped...or that I'm trying to protect Joe Pa's or Penn State football's legacy...and who knows what else... I'd better go check and see what other accusation I can find...:tongue_smilie:

 

Well I'm not calling for the university to be shut down, or collegiate sports to be ended, so I guess you can fight that fight on the "other boards" if you want.

 

You can complain about the "innocent people" all you want, they are still victims of the perpetrators and the enablers, not the people rightly imposing sanctions.

 

And as an aside, one of the biggest reasons the Sandusky thing was perpetuated instead of stopped is that JoePa & Co. were concerned about "collateral damage" and "innocent people."

[Kathryn]

Well I'm not calling for the university to be shut down, or collegiate sports to be ended, so I guess you can fight that fight on the "other boards" if you want.

 

You can complain about the "innocent people" all you want, they are still victims of the perpetrators and the enablers, not the people rightly imposing sanctions.

 

And as an aside, one of the biggest reasons the Sandusky thing was perpetuated instead of stopped is that JoePa & Co. were concerned about "collateral damage" and "innocent people."

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Joker]

that one side does not make the other side untrue-no matter how much you might hate someone or what they have done. I gave no comment as to what I thought of Joe Pa as a person or what will be understood about him in the future. In fact I stated that I didn't know him well enough to form a final opinion about him and I was waiting to see what other evidence and such shakes out in the investigations to come. As for in general, sure there are people or institutions we remember only for the great good or great evil they have done. That does not make the opposite of what we remeber, the good or bad they did that is not on the forefront, untrue or not historically accurate. How is that for a nerdy response?;)

 

Didn't you earlier say, though, that he was a great coach? As a head coach, he ignored the fact that one of his coaches raped children. He allowed him continued access to Penn State's facilities and didn't report him to authorities or make his actions known. I do not view him still as a 'great coach' just because he was good at part of his job. He failed miserably at the rest of it. I also do not get why others so vigorously defend him. The hype should not be so focused on Paterno, but so many are defending him that the rest of us must speak up.

[Unicorn.]

Not sure. I mean, it is not the fault of the student players.

 

I think the whole coaching staff should go and a new staff should come in - a total clean sweep of the staff.

 

And all those who knew about this and did nothing should be in prison.

 

:iagree: I don't feel like the right people are getting punished. It isn't the players (past, present, future) faults. The fines going to victims would be a good thing, but I don't think the athletes should be punished.

[Juniper]

Well I'm not calling for the university to be shut down, or collegiate sports to be ended, so I guess you can fight that fight on the "other boards" if you want.

 

You can complain about the "innocent people" all you want, they are still victims of the perpetrators and the enablers, not the people rightly imposing sanctions.

 

And as an aside, one of the biggest reasons the Sandusky thing was perpetuated instead of stopped is that JoePa & Co. were concerned about "collateral damage" and "innocent people."

:iagree: Any innocents that are suffering are, not because of the sanctions, but because of the people that made the sanctions necessary. Those are the ones who should carry the blame....and them only.

[weaver_67579]

I am going to repost what I posted on the other Penn state thread a couple days ago. Just read it. Think about it being your son.

 

I have been the victim in a similar institution type of scandal. I have lived through the attempts at cover ups and the whole "innocent people will suffer" mentality.

 

So here are my thoughts as a victim. If the football program was the central point for the incidences, its fame, its power, its draw...everything about the football program, then shutting it down for a couple years would help in my healing. I realize that certain community businesses might suffer, but I am well aware that those businesses flourished as a result of football program that was so idolized it was deemed untouchable for many years.

 

Would football scholarship students suffer? Yes. And I think everything should be done to find them an alternative university with PSU footing the bill for them. It is PSU's job to make sure as few innocents don't suffer, but there should be consequences to the football program.

 

If you have not been the victim of something like this than you cannot imagine the nausea, anger, sadness, devastation, pain, and fear at realizing that many people put food on their plates by supporting a culture that allowed you to be victimized. As a victim you know that they did not officially "know," but you also know that their family vacation to Disney, their turkey dinner with the trimmings, their kids soccer registrations was quite probably paid for with money that was earned because of football culture that forced you to pay the ultimate price.

 

So, while I do not think the various other sports, educational departments and community as whole should be punished, I do think the football program should go for awhile. Maybe not in totality, but definitively not in allowed to compete at the NCAA level.

 

 

and found it very sad indeed. It doesn't change my feelings that innocent people should not have to pay. I know it will happen, but I don't have to agree or like it.

 

and why would anyone assume for an instant that I didn't think of my own children when this story broke? Why would anyone assume that I would not likely want to kill Sandusky with my own bare hands and those involved in covering it up? Why would anyone assume I don't think the football program or university should be punished in any way? Why would anyone assume that I don't believe that those that perpetrated the crimes and cover-up should be punished to the full extenet of the law and then be punished again in civil court? Why would anyone assume that because I don't think the collateral damage is meaningless that I in any way belittle what happened to those boys.

 

I will not begrudge a couple of fellow alumni from doing well with a sub shop making enough to take their family to disney. I will not think it is ok to punish him because he loved attending Penn State so much that he moved his family back there to open that sub shop that contributed to the "culture" of Penn State. I can see feeling sick knowing that your taking down of a big money making sport at a university will affect innocent people. That does not mean I don't think you should have gone after whatever university that it was. I also do not understand how the sub shop owners are responsible to you in any way.

[weaver_67579]

:iagree: Any innocents that are suffering are, not because of the sanctions, but because of the people that made the sanctions necessary. Those are the ones who should carry the blame....and them only.

 

that the blame is completeley on those that perpetrated the crimes... not the fans, faculty, staff, alumni or students.

[Juniper]

and found it very sad indeed. It doesn't change my feelings that innocent people should not have to pay. I know it will happen, but I don't have to agree or like it.

 

and why would anyone assume for an instant that I didn't think of my own children when this story broke? Why would anyone assume that I would not likely want to kill Sandusky with my own bare hands and those involved in covering it up? Why would anyone assume I don't think the football program or university should be punished in any way? Why would anyone assume that I don't believe that those that perpetrated the crimes and cover-up should be punished to the full extenet of the law and then be punished again in civil court? Why would anyone assume that because I don't think the collateral damage is meaningless that I in any way belittle what happened to those boys.

 

I will not begrudge a couple of fellow alumni from doing well with a sub shop making enough to take their family to disney. I will not think it is ok to punish him because he loved attending Penn State so much that he moved his family back there to open that sub shop that contributed to the "culture" of Penn State. I can see feeling sick knowing that your taking down of a big money making sport at a university will affect innocent people. That does not mean I don't think you should have gone after whatever university that it was. I also do not understand how the sub shop owners are responsible to you in any way.

Said gently: You are right, at first you would be very angry. You would cycle through a miriad of emotions. Then eventually you would start to ask a different set of questions.

 

How did this happen? What allowed these types of abuses to go on for so long? What contributed to this happening to my love one? How can we diffuse that atmosphere so we do not recreate another hospitable breeding ground for cover ups?

[pdalley]

:iagree: I don't feel like the right people are getting punished. It isn't the players (past, present, future) faults. The fines going to victims would be a good thing, but I don't think the athletes should be punished.

 

They aren't. They will either be able to transfer without penalty - scholarships intact or stay at Penn State and have their scholarships honored. Their choice.

 

Anytime a school is hit with sanctions the athletes that were not there at the time wind up being punished. Mostly because schools don't report the violation themselves and it's not found out until years later. The UK team that played against Duke in '92 was made up of young men who did nothing wrong but had suffered through NCAA sanctions against UK for earlier violations. It happens all the time. I don't see why this is a case for any exceptions.

 

So what's the answer? We don't punish anything because some innocent person might get the fall out? Well why have any rules then?

 

I don't like that innocents are being affected but I don't see any alternative at this point. The culture that lead to this has to be eradicated and the NCAA - for once - has done a pretty darn good job at picking punishments that will have a lasting impact with as little collateral damage as possible.

[8circles]

--Not proud of what happened to those kids, but always proud to be a Nittany Lion,

The fact that you even feel the need to say this during a discussion of child rape is astounding.

 

This thread is so sad.

[8circles]

If the words "protecting innocents" come out of your mouth and you're referring to linebackers instead of raped 12-year-olds, you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

 

:iagree:

[weaver_67579]

Said gently: You are right, at first you would be very angry. You would cycle through a miriad of emotions. Then eventually you would start to ask a different set of questions.

 

How did this happen? What allowed these types of abuses to go on for so long? What contributed to this happening to my love one? How can we diffuse that atmosphere so we do not recreate another hospitable breeding ground for cover ups?

 

All of those questions should be asked... and answers should be sought. Reportedly, that is what is happening now. That is addressed partly by the report that Penn State commissioned...and partly by some of the NCAA sanctions... the required oversight and such. I, as well as everyone I have spoken to, alumni and locals... agree with that as well.

 

btw, I am sorry for your experience and understand what a devistating effect it can have on someone... on a whole family...

[katilac]

that it is abhorrent that I can think that he was skilled in teaching football skills to his players? How is that offensive in any way? and how does that in any way have to do with the cover-up. They are two different things. I can be good at playing piano and drink too much and drive. That doesn't mean I am now not a good piano player... It means I am both a drunk driver and a good piano player. They are not mutually exclusive.

 

I have never, ever heard a coach say that imparting athletic skills was the only factor required to make one a good coach, much less a great one. I have heard, again and again, that coaches are important because of the discipline, confidence, and yes, integrity, that they instill in players. Joe Paterno publicly said so himself on more than one occasion (bolding is mine):

 

Besides pride, loyalty, discipline, heart, and mind, confidence is the key to all the locks.

 

Losing a game is heartbreaking. Losing your sense of excellence or worth is a tragedy.

 

Success without honor is an unseasoned dish; it will satisfy your hunger, but it won't taste good.

 

That's certainly one aspect of the reaction. Another is that commenting on Paterno's coaching skills in the wake of this tragedy - and his substantial role in it - strikes many as pointless and offensive. ChocolateReign is correct: some crimes are so heinous that they overshadow any good you have done with your life.

 

Thus, when you ask me if I know who Ted Bundy is, my answer is, "Sure, he was a serial killer" and not "Sure, he was that guy who volunteered at a suicide hotline." Both items are true, the raping and torturing and so on didn't negate his volunteer work, but it rightfully overshadows it.

 

So, years from now, when you ask me if I know who Joe Paterno is, my answer will be, "Yeah, he was that Penn State guy who enabled the baby raper" and not, "Yeah, he was that Penn State guy with outstanding coaching skills."

Edited July 24, 2012 by katilac

[weaver_67579]

I have never, ever heard a coach say that imparting athletic skills was the only factor required to make one a good coach, much less a great one. I have heard, again and again, that coaches are important because of the discipline, confidence, and yes, integrity, that they instill in players. Joe Paterno publicly said so himself on more than one occasion (bolding is mine):

 

Besides pride, loyalty, discipline, heart, and mind, confidence is the key to all the locks.

 

Losing a game is heartbreaking. Losing your sense of excellence or worth is a tragedy.

 

Success without honor is an unseasoned dish; it will satisfy your hunger, but it won't taste good.

 

That's certainly one aspect of the reaction. Another is that commenting on Paterno's coaching skills in the wake of this tragedy - and his substantial role in it - strikes many as pointless and offensive. ChocolateReign is correct: some crimes are so heinous that they overshadow any good you have done with your life.

 

Thus, when you ask me if I know who Ted Bundy is, my answer is, "Sure, he was a serial killer" and not "Sure, he was that guy who volunteered at a suicide hotline." Both items are true, the raping and torturing and so on didn't negate his volunteer work, but it rightfully overshadows it.

 

So, years from now, when you ask me if I know who Joe Paterno is, my answer will be, "Yeah, he was that Penn State guy who enabled the baby raper" and not, "Yeah, he was that Penn State guy with outstanding coaching skills."

 

what you should or should not remember him for? Btw, I love that quote of his and have posted it on my facebook page many times... I like to post a quote of the day most days...;)

 

Why is the stating of the opposing facts on Joe Pa so offensive? Did you read all of my posts? are you aware of the context of this one? It was pertainting to me commenting about some people being not nice about how some Penn State fans, alumni... still support Penn State and some still admire Joe Pa. I was showing how that was happening... how many long term fans and supporters and alumni.... do not only remember the bad... they remember the good too. People can have both bad and good qualities and accomplishments. So remember him as you wish, but that doesn't mean that others have to or that they are bad for choosing to remember the good with the bad.

[weaver_67579]

Didn't you earlier say, though, that he was a great coach? As a head coach, he ignored the fact that one of his coaches raped children. He allowed him continued access to Penn State's facilities and didn't report him to authorities or make his actions known. I do not view him still as a 'great coach' just because he was good at part of his job. He failed miserably at the rest of it. I also do not get why others so vigorously defend him. The hype should not be so focused on Paterno, but so many are defending him that the rest of us must speak up.

 

In that he was able to teach his players the skills of the game-I clarified that somewhere else on this monstrous thing. I guess you didn't find that ;) I think his large number of wins over the years can attest to that point. I am not defending him as a person. I didn't know him personally and am waiting to all the proof to shake out in the trials to come, I have a feeling we will be finding out more... and once again. I am only stating facts... Joe Pa was a successful coach with the wins attensting to that. It is also likely true that he didn't do enough to help those boys. One of the facts does not make the other of those facts untrue. They can both be true. People that think he did a good and effective job coaching are correct and those that think he harbored a pedophile can be right.. and most all of the people I know believe both to be true... Why is that such a problem for people to get? Why is that so offensive when they are just neutral facts?

[ChocolateReignRemix]

what you should or should not remember him for? Btw, I love that quote of his and have posted it on my facebook page many times... I like to post a quote of the day most days...;)

 

Why is the stating of the opposing facts on Joe Pa so offensive? Did you read all of my posts? are you aware of the context of this one? It was pertainting to me commenting about some people being not nice about how some Penn State fans, alumni... still support Penn State and some still admire Joe Pa. I was showing how that was happening... how many long term fans and supporters and alumni.... do not only remember the bad... they remember the good too. People can have both bad and good qualities and accomplishments. So remember him as you wish, but that doesn't mean that others have to or that they are bad for choosing to remember the good with the bad.

 

In the same way some of us have explained why we have difficulty wanting to revisit the "good" he did in light of how terrible the "bad" was.

[MrsBasil]

In that he was able to teach his players the skills of the game-I clarified that somewhere else on this monstrous thing. I guess you didn't find that ;) I think his large number of wins over the years can attest to that point. I am not defending him as a person. I didn't know him personally and am waiting to all the proof to shake out in the trials to come, I have a feeling we will be finding out more... and once again. I am only stating facts... Joe Pa was a successful coach with the wins attensting to that. It is also likely true that he didn't do enough to help those boys. One of the facts does not make the other of those facts untrue. They can both be true. People that think he did a good and effective job coaching are correct and those that think he harbored a pedophile can be right.. and most all of the people I know believe both to be true... Why is that such a problem for people to get? Why is that so offensive when they are just neutral facts?

 

For me the bad(helped a child rapist continue to rape) negates the good( won football games). The good no longer matters when the bad is actually horrific. It also comes off very weird to hear people talk about how good of a coach he was in light of his covering up child abuse. It doesn't seem like that should matter. IMO

[Audrey]

If the words "protecting innocents" come out of your mouth and you're referring to linebackers instead of raped 12-year-olds, you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

 

:iagree: Absolutely. Sad that some people seem to completely lack the capacity to feel the obviously appropriate shame.

[Audrey]

In that he was able to teach his players the skills of the game-I clarified that somewhere else on this monstrous thing. I guess you didn't find that ;) I think his large number of wins over the years can attest to that point. I am not defending him as a person. I didn't know him personally and am waiting to all the proof to shake out in the trials to come, I have a feeling we will be finding out more... and once again. I am only stating facts... Joe Pa was a successful coach with the wins attensting to that. It is also likely true that he didn't do enough to help those boys. One of the facts does not make the other of those facts untrue. They can both be true. People that think he did a good and effective job coaching are correct and those that think he harbored a pedophile can be right.. and most all of the people I know believe both to be true... Why is that such a problem for people to get? Why is that so offensive when they are just neutral facts?

 

You have no idea how ridiculous your argument sounds, do you? SO WHAT if Paterno was a fantastic coach?! That is irrelevant in light of his misdeeds.

 

John Wayne Gacy killed 33 boys, but by gosh let's not all forget that he was first and foremost a fantastic clown. :001_rolleyes::001_rolleyes:

[awisha.]

You have no idea how ridiculous your argument sounds, do you? SO WHAT if Paterno was a fantastic coach?! That is irrelevant in light of his misdeeds.

 

John Wayne Gacy killed 33 boys, but by gosh let's not all forget that he was first and foremost a fantastic clown. :001_rolleyes::001_rolleyes:

 

:iagree: well said Audrey.

[Galatea]

that the blame is completeley on those that perpetrated the crimes... not the fans, faculty, staff, alumni or students.

 

It is because the fans, faculty, staff, alumni and students idolized Joe Paterno and gave him power over even his athletic director, college president, and through them the campus police that Sandusky was allowed to rape boys as long as he did. Because Joe Paterno knew he was doing it, but wanted his football legacy and his powerful position more than he wanted justice or safety for boys he didn't know.

 

Yes, the fans, faculty, staff, alumni and students should be punished as well. The Penn State "football culture" as everyone is talking about it is the one they created and worshiped above children's safety.

[creekland]

I suppose I'm a little late responding, but I'm 100% ok with the sanctions. It kind of disgusts me to see so many local people being angry with them. Penn St is the entity that allowed so much to go on AFTER they knew about it - just to save the school's reputation. To me, that requires severe punishment.

 

The current players are allowed to transfer without penalty. I don't know that many will, but they are allowed to. Anyone who chooses to go there for the next 4 years for football knows what they are getting into. I don't feel sorry for them. There can be too much attachment to a school/person where people are acting blindly. So be it.

 

My kids don't pick colleges based upon sports teams (but they also aren't playing top level sports).

[creekland]

In that he was able to teach his players the skills of the game-I clarified that somewhere else on this monstrous thing. I guess you didn't find that ;) I think his large number of wins over the years can attest to that point. I am not defending him as a person. I didn't know him personally and am waiting to all the proof to shake out in the trials to come, I have a feeling we will be finding out more... and once again. I am only stating facts... Joe Pa was a successful coach with the wins attensting to that. It is also likely true that he didn't do enough to help those boys. One of the facts does not make the other of those facts untrue. They can both be true. People that think he did a good and effective job coaching are correct and those that think he harbored a pedophile can be right.. and most all of the people I know believe both to be true... Why is that such a problem for people to get? Why is that so offensive when they are just neutral facts?

 

And Hitler was a spectacular leader who unified Germany too, but you don't find many who want to remember that fact or have statues for him based upon the evil he did.

 

If a person's or school's success is even partially based upon covering up such major wrongs to others, it just isn't celebratable success IMO.

 

I think a ton less of both Penn State and Paterno + staff and don't feel they should be recognized for anything football for quite some time.

 

It doesn't change how I feel about their academics.

[pdalley]

In that he was able to teach his players the skills of the game-I clarified that somewhere else on this monstrous thing. I guess you didn't find that ;) I think his large number of wins over the years can attest to that point. I am not defending him as a person. I didn't know him personally and am waiting to all the proof to shake out in the trials to come, I have a feeling we will be finding out more... and once again. I am only stating facts... Joe Pa was a successful coach with the wins attensting to that. It is also likely true that he didn't do enough to help those boys. One of the facts does not make the other of those facts untrue. They can both be true. People that think he did a good and effective job coaching are correct and those that think he harbored a pedophile can be right.. and most all of the people I know believe both to be true... Why is that such a problem for people to get? Why is that so offensive when they are just neutral facts?

 

Because they are not neutral. I am so tired of repeating this so I'll just ask you a simple question - is child rape not the most heinous crime? If the answer is yes then I do not understand how someone can think being a good coach and spouting meaningless platitudes negates covering up and enabling one for a decade. What does it matter? When it counted he lacked character and moral fiber. So no, nothing else he did really matters. He failed to protect children. He chose his 'program' his reputation over at least ten little boys.

 

At least ten little boys - that we know of - were ritually raped and molested in no small part thanks to Joe Paterno and Penn State giving Sandusky continued access to what he needed to lure his victims.

 

In my world if you harbor a pedophile you are scum. Period. End of sentence. Yes, it negates every good thing you've done and every word out of your mouth about honor and integrity, et al, is a LIE!

 

It is not the end of the world for Penn State to go forth and be known as a college of academic excellence instead of a football school. It's probably a much better thing for the university in the long run.

 

And yes, offensive. Manure doesn't smell any better when you plant flowers on it. You have to actually clean it up and then plant the flowers.

[Mimm]

what you should or should not remember him for? Btw, I love that quote of his and have posted it on my facebook page many times... I like to post a quote of the day most days...;)

 

Why is the stating of the opposing facts on Joe Pa so offensive? Did you read all of my posts? are you aware of the context of this one? It was pertainting to me commenting about some people being not nice about how some Penn State fans, alumni... still support Penn State and some still admire Joe Pa. I was showing how that was happening... how many long term fans and supporters and alumni.... do not only remember the bad... they remember the good too. People can have both bad and good qualities and accomplishments. So remember him as you wish, but that doesn't mean that others have to or that they are bad for choosing to remember the good with the bad.

 

You repeatedly say that no one is reading your posts, but are you reading theirs? No one said that the good things Paterno did were no longer true. Just that they weren't relevant. Especially now, while everyone is shocked and angry and grieving over what happened, you feel the need to go on and on and on about the fact that he did good as well? How tasteless. Let people be angry! The man has enough people worshiping him, he doesn't need you rushing to his defense right now.

 

ETA: And yes, I think you are a bad person if you reaction to hearing someone protected a child rapist is, "Well, at least he wins lots of football games." In my world, that absolutely DOES make you a bad person.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Mimm

[Mimm]

You have no idea how ridiculous your argument sounds, do you? SO WHAT if Paterno was a fantastic coach?! That is irrelevant in light of his misdeeds.

 

John Wayne Gacy killed 33 boys, but by gosh let's not all forget that he was first and foremost a fantastic clown. :001_rolleyes::001_rolleyes:

 

:iagree: This thread is surreal to me.

[elegantlion]

I think part of this fall under the life isn't fair category. When people commit heinous acts and get caught, there is bound to someone innocent (aside from the victim) who suffers. People do bad things all the time that end up with consequences that spiral down to the people who weren't directly affected.

 

I can think of a few things in my own life that ended up directly affecting me because someone in authority tried to cover up their crimes, things that had nothing directly to do with me.

 

I don't give a rip about football, but I greatly dislike hero worship for any individual.

[Katy]

Trying to reason with people defending Paterno or who hate the idea of any sanctions is a little like trying to reason with people you want out of a cult - reason is never going to work. You can possibly force them out of the cult by kidnapping them and surrounding them with regular people from the real world, and they might eventually change their minds, but they may never change their minds.

 

When you take out the cult leaders but leave thousands of members behind, the cult doesn't disappear. It continues to exist, in a weakened form. I think the same culture will continue, like Warren Jeffs and the FLDS. The culture may continue for generations.

[Kathryn]

You have no idea how ridiculous your argument sounds, do you? SO WHAT if Paterno was a fantastic coach?! That is irrelevant in light of his misdeeds.

 

John Wayne Gacy killed 33 boys, but by gosh let's not all forget that he was first and foremost a fantastic clown. :001_rolleyes::001_rolleyes:

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

Because they are not neutral. I am so tired of repeating this so I'll just ask you a simple question - is child rape not the most heinous crime? If the answer is yes then I do not understand how someone can think being a good coach and spouting meaningless platitudes negates covering up and enabling one for a decade. What does it matter? When it counted he lacked character and moral fiber. So no, nothing else he did really matters. He failed to protect children. He chose his 'program' his reputation over at least ten little boys.

 

At least ten little boys - that we know of - were ritually raped and molested in no small part thanks to Joe Paterno and Penn State giving Sandusky continued access to what he needed to lure his victims.

 

In my world if you harbor a pedophile you are scum. Period. End of sentence. Yes, it negates every good thing you've done and every word out of your mouth about honor and integrity, et al, is a LIE!

 

It is not the end of the world for Penn State to go forth and be known as a college of academic excellence instead of a football school. It's probably a much better thing for the university in the long run.

 

And yes, offensive. Manure doesn't smell any better when you plant flowers on it. You have to actually clean it up and then plant the flowers.

 

:iagree:

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

It is because the fans, faculty, staff, alumni and students idolized Joe Paterno and gave him power over even his athletic director, college president, and through them the campus police that Sandusky was allowed to rape boys as long as he did. Because Joe Paterno knew he was doing it, but wanted his football legacy and his powerful position more than he wanted justice or safety for boys he didn't know.

 

Yes, the fans, faculty, staff, alumni and students should be punished as well. The Penn State "football culture" as everyone is talking about it is the one they created and worshiped above children's safety.

 

I think it is totally unfair to lump all fans, staff, alumni, and students in with these crimes committed by a handful of people. I also think it is unfair to punish innocent bystanders when it is avoidable. I think all of the sanctions except for the huge monetary fine are possibly fair. I still worry that the huge monetary fine will affect all of the students and staff and possibly the town at Penn State who have nothing to do with this.

 

I also disagree that everyone is involved in football culture at a school or that football culture equates with not wanting to protect the safety of children. I for one attended a college (not Penn State) where football culture and party culture was rampant and yet I detest football and the party culture and always have. I went to college for schooling and I suspect most college folks do the same. I think this football culture and party culture is rampant at schools all across the country. I also know many good people who have attended Penn State or work for Penn State and some who even like football (gasp) who are all good people who would never ever tolerate the abuse of children.

 

I think this tragedy was caused by a few bad men period.

[Trish]

I think it is totally unfair to lump all fans, staff, alumni, and students in with these crimes committed by a handful of people. I also think it is unfair to punish innocent bystanders when it is avoidable. I think all of the sanctions except for the huge monetary fine are possibly fair. I still worry that the huge monetary fine will affect all of the students and staff and possibly the town at Penn State who have nothing to do with this.

 

I also disagree that everyone is involved in football culture at a school or that football culture equates with not wanting to protect the safety of children. I for one attended a college (not Penn State) where football culture and party culture was rampant and yet I detest football and the party culture and always have. I went to college for schooling and I suspect most college folks do the same. I think this football culture and party culture is rampant at schools all across the country. I also know many good people who have attended Penn State or work for Penn State and some who even like football (gasp) who are all good people who would never ever tolerate the abuse of children.

 

I think this tragedy was caused by a few bad men period.

 

The crimes continued in part because Paterno and the other administrators were worried about the "huge monetary loss" that would no doubt result if the Penn State football program were disgraced by Sandusky. So, a "huge monetary fine" seems an entirely fair penalty. Innocent people have benefited from the football program's reputation and largesse (whether they are football fans or not) and now they are suffering due to the actions of a few concerning that same football program.

[weaver_67579]

In the same way some of us have explained why we have difficulty wanting to revisit the "good" he did in light of how terrible the "bad" was.

 

want to revisit the good-only that people that do are not bad!

[Harriet Vane]

I think that a large part of the problem here is that people who do not understand abuse or the culture of abuse are offering opinions about how abuse and the culture of abuse should be handled.

 

Before offering emotional pleas for the innocent bystanders, do your homework. Go talk to a few caseworkers. Read up on abusive systems such as cults. Research what happened within the Catholic church and why it flourished.

 

What happened at Penn State is actually textbook typical for both abuse and for the culture of abuse. Before spouting uninformed opinions far and wide, do your homework.