I am a Christian but don't believe homosexuality is a sin.

[Nestof3]

I agree with this. I just don't like flippantly acting like denying sexual satisfaction is such a small thing. It's probably the # 1 reason most men get married/pursue a relationship in the first place, and it's easy to luckily be born with the right drive. Let's imagine that the rule was, if you are selfish or angry, you have to give up sex.

 

I think that overemphasis on personal fulfillment is part of our cultural moment. We're totally unaccustomed to the idea that we'd have to deny ourselves something, especially if we really really want it and are really really convinced that it will make us happy. "If something doesn't hurt anyone, what's the big deal? I need this to be happy."

 

But the Gospel message is that God alone is sufficient for fulfillment and the purpose of life is not to feed our worldly desires.

 

Do I know gay people?

Yes, lots. Several of my best friends have been gay.

 

Do I think that acting on homosexual temptations is sinful?

Yes. I don't think that conclusion is escapable without some extraordinary wishful thinking.

 

Am I going to denounce people in gay relationships or treat them differently?

No, no moreso than I would any person, myself included. Homosexual sins are not some special class of sins, worse than all the others. Every person in this world is a sinner. God, forgive us and have mercy on us all.

[Halcyon]

My apologies for chiming in.

 

I'll bow out now. But it does look as if it has taken on a life of its own.

I know I should have expected that, no?

[mykdsmomy]

I think Christians have a tendency to want to put things in neat wrapped up boxes of absolutes. Homosexuality is one of those issues where Christians feel the need to really stand their ground because it is widely taught in the more conservative sects of Christianity that it IS a sin because the bible is literal and the bible clearly says it's a sin. The end!

 

I think there HAS to be room for different interpretations based on context, translations, etc. There are so many other subjects in the bible that different sects don't agree upon...which is why there are 10 bazillion protestant churches out there....but I digress....

 

I, personally, don't have an absolute position on the issue either way. I believe in gay rights because I believe in separation of church and state. I struggle with the whole "sin" issue.....but honestly even if it were a sin (which I am leaning towards it's not), then what? Who here is without sin? ;)

Why should we condemn one person's sin over any other? What right do we have to hyperfocus on one type of sin? I sin all the time but I don't have organizations out to strip me of my civil rights because of it.

[Parker Martin]

I agree with this. I just don't like flippantly acting like denying sexual satisfaction is such a small thing. It's probably the # 1 reason most men get married/pursue a relationship in the first place, and it's easy to luckily be born with the right drive. Let's imagine that the rule was, if you are selfish or angry, you have to give up sex.

 

Do you think I'm being flippant?

[TranquilMind]

I think that overemphasis on personal fulfillment is part of our cultural moment. We're totally unaccustomed to the idea that we'd have to deny ourselves something, especially if we really really want it and are really really convinced that it will make us happy. "If something doesn't hurt anyone, what's the big deal? I need this to be happy."

 

But the Gospel message is that God alone is sufficient for fulfillment and the purpose of life is not to feed our worldly desires.

 

Do I know gay people?

Yes, lots. Several of my best friends have been gay.

 

Do I think that acting on homosexual temptations is sinful?

Yes. I don't think that conclusion is escapable without some extraordinary wishful thinking.

 

Am I going to denounce people in gay relationships or treat them differently?

No, no moreso than I would any person, myself included. Homosexual sins are not some special class of sins, worse than all the others. Every person in this world is a sinner. God, forgive us and have mercy on us all.

 

Yes, so true.

[TranquilMind]

I agree with this. I just don't like flippantly acting like denying sexual satisfaction is such a small thing. It's probably the # 1 reason most men get married/pursue a relationship in the first place,

 

So stated by every single man who ever left his family for the other woman. He deserved good sex and God wants him to have it.

[TranquilMind]

I know I should have expected that, no?

Yes! Even I got distracted and then came back and jumped in again, forgetting that I had said I was going to bow out

 

We are all on a roll now! 20 - 30, 50 pages? How long do you think it will go?

[marbel]

I agree with this. I just don't like flippantly acting like denying sexual satisfaction is such a small thing. It's probably the # 1 reason most men get married/pursue a relationship in the first place, and it's easy to luckily be born with the right drive. Let's imagine that the rule was, if you are selfish or angry, you have to give up sex.

 

You probably didn't mean it that way, but this sounds pretty flippant to me! ;)

 

Anyway, there are many ways people are denied sexual and other satisfactions of life.

 

My 40-year-old single friend who desperately wants husband and children, but has no prospects in sight.

 

My quadriplegic friend who has a great life of the mind but little life of the body.

 

My friend who is married to a man with increasingly poor health; she faces a future of caregiving.

 

My relative whose wife left him and took the kids far away so it's hard to see them.

 

My relative who married badly and has had to work hard at menial jobs all her life to support her 4 children.

 

All these people trust in a loving God who may be denying them comfort, ease, and pleasure in their lives now, but who promises them something much greater in the life to come.

 

I don't think anyone's being flippant about these things (including you, Dawn). These are real concerns. Upthread someone posted Christ's command to take up your cross. Every Christian I know has a cross. Some are bigger than others, or at least appear that way to the one who is not carrying it. Some may not have their cross yet.

 

Not everyone believes in that, I know.

Edited July 22, 2012 by marbel

[ShannonS]

I repost this because it is relevant

 

I believe the passages cited from OT Leviticus to support the oppression of LGBT community and gay marriage are legalistic, misinterpreted and completely taken out of context, and in this instance, have no relevance to my calling as a Christian.

 

We all <Christians> recognize the authority and importance of God's word. The issue here is interpretation.

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,

rightly dividing

the word of truth." II Tim 2:15.

"Rightly dividing" means to discern and apply the scripture in its proper historical setting.

 

As in Leviticus' proper historical setting.

 

This also applies to the Pauline condemnation of 'homosexual offenders'. I interpret this as a denouncement of coercive activities, not of homosexuality itself. It is analogous to calling a heterosexual relations a sin because God does not like rape.

 

Homosexuality as sinful is not a reflection of all Christian thought. I believe that people of all sexual orientations and gender identities share the worth that comes from being unique individuals created by God. I belong to an evangelical Lutheran church that embraces this view. I can link to theolgoical resources. Not sure if that is allowed outside of a PM.

 

Respectfully to all,

and with love in Christ,

Shannon

[Nestof3]

Do you think I'm being flippant?

 

No, but I think when a person says, "Yeah, some people struggle with their temper, some struggle with their critical spirit, and some struggle with their homosexuality -- we all have our crosses to bear" it is flippant.

 

I don't think a heterosexual person can at all relate to that sort of cross.

[Joanne]

I repost this because it is relevant

 

I believe the passages cited from OT Leviticus to support the oppression of LGBT community and gay marriage are legalistic, misinterpreted and completely taken out of context, and in this instance, have no relevance to my calling as a Christian.

 

We all <Christians> recognize the authority and importance of God's word. The issue here is interpretation.

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,

rightly dividing

the word of truth." II Tim 2:15.

"Rightly dividing" means to discern and apply the scripture in its proper historical setting.

 

As in Leviticus' proper historical setting.

 

This also applies to the Pauline condemnation of 'homosexual offenders'. I interpret this as a denouncement of coercive activities, not of homosexuality itself. It is analogous to calling a heterosexual relations a sin because God does not like rape.

 

Homosexuality as sinful is not a reflection of all Christian thought. I believe that people of all sexual orientations and gender identities share the worth that comes from being unique individuals created by God. I belong to an evangelical Lutheran church that embraces this view. I can link to theolgoical resources. Not sure if that is allowed outside of a PM.

 

Respectfully to all,

and with love in Christ,

Shannon

 

Great post. Thank you.

[Halcyon]

I repost this because it is relevant

 

I believe the passages cited from OT Leviticus to support the oppression of LGBT community and gay marriage are legalistic, misinterpreted and completely taken out of context, and in this instance, have no relevance to my calling as a Christian.

 

We all <Christians> recognize the authority and importance of God's word. The issue here is interpretation.

 

 

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,

rightly dividing

the word of truth." II Tim 2:15.

"Rightly dividing" means to discern and apply the scripture in its proper historical setting.

 

As in Leviticus' proper historical setting.

 

This also applies to the Pauline condemnation of 'homosexual offenders'. I interpret this as a denouncement of coercive activities, not of homosexuality itself. It is analogous to calling a heterosexual relations a sin because God does not like rape.

 

Homosexuality as sinful is not a reflection of all Christian thought. I believe that people of all sexual orientations and gender identities share the worth that comes from being unique individuals created by God. I belong to an evangelical Lutheran church that embraces this view. I can link to theolgoical resources. Not sure if that is allowed outside of a PM.

 

Respectfully to all,

and with love in Christ,

Shannon

 

Great post. I would love links if ou care to pm. And your church sounds right up my alley!

[Joanne]

This is the post modern school of subjectivity and relativism that runs by the rule do as you will and harm none. Only in their pride, they really have no idea who they're harming and only seem to learn through hindsight. I'd rather have the foresight to know I don't know any better and not go there. Us humans aren't really the most ethical or pure driven.

 

Actually, thinking of the Bible in literalistic terms rather than a humanly wrote, divinely inspired literature *metaphor* is the new thought. It was written, canon chosen, and it was declared scripture (by humans) when humans accepted that the writers were hyperbolic as a literary style.

 

Contemporary, Western influenced, conservative Christianity is not ancient.

[Nestof3]

So stated by every single man who ever left his family for the other woman. He deserved good sex and God wants him to have it.

 

Yes, that is exactly what I meant. What I am saying is it bothers me when men, who can barely go three days without sex, so flippantly say -- "Well, we all have our crosses to bear."

[Halcyon]

 

...but we could frame other things that way as well... infertility, brain injury, poverty, developmental disabilities.

 

...though that sounds as negative as lumping orientation in with adultery and addiction...

 

...

 

i am glad you said it...i was about to point it out and then noticed you recognized the shortcomings of your argument in your very next sentence. I dont see why "being gay" has to be considered a burden, a negative, nor why it is continually, almost instinctively being lumped with alcoholism, porn addiction, brain injuries.....it is our CULTURE that condemns these people, not God, not fate....outside of culture's condemnation, they could lead perfectly happy, normal lives. People who are brain injured, or alcoholic, owever, most likely can NOT.

 

That is the difference.

[Lovedtodeath]

outside of culture's condemnation, they could lead perfectly happy, normal lives. People who are brain injured, or alcoholic, owever, most likely can NOT.

 

That is the difference.

thank you for spelling that out. Very good.

[SKL]

I don't know one way or the other. I have so many different thoughts about all aspects of religion.

 

But I respect the right of everyone (on all sides) to believe and respectfully express whatever they feel their conscience is telling them.

 

I think the key is to be respectful and to also listen without a huge chip on one's shoulder.

 

I think it's sad that so many conversations turn south because one party/group insists on interpreting a well-meant statement as "hate" etc.

[TranquilMind]

I think it's sad that so many conversations turn south because one party/group insists on interpreting a well-meant statement as "hate" etc.

 

That does get really annoying. You can hardly disagree with a position on just about anything today, political or otherwise, without being labeled as a "hater" or "fearful".

[Luanne]

Someone who wanted you and other like you to think he was made that up. He chose to stay single so he could spend his time spreading the gospel. Anytime anyone isn't married or hasn't been in relationships doesn't automatically make them gay. I'm betting people on here think Tim Tebow is gay as well. ... but he's not.

[Farrar]

I should really stop responding to these things...

 

All I really want to say is that I grew up in a wonderful, loving, religious leftie, social justice-seeking Christian church that took a stand for gay marriage way back in the early 90's. It's growing up in a community like that, believing that THAT is what Christianity is all about that makes me still a Christian today.

 

I could go on about the legalistic stuff in Leviticus and how offensive I find the comparison of being gay to being an alcohlic, but others have already said it better.

[Caroline]

I should really stop responding to these things...

 

All I really want to say is that I grew up in a wonderful, loving, religious leftie, social justice-seeking Christian church that took a stand for gay marriage way back in the early 90's. It's growing up in a community like that, believing that THAT is what Christianity is all about that makes me still a Christian today.

 

 

Me, too!

[Joanne]

Someone who wanted you and other like you to think he was made that up. He chose to stay single so he could spend his time spreading the gospel. Anytime anyone isn't married or hasn't been in relationships doesn't automatically make them gay. I'm betting people on here think Tim Tebow is gay as well. ... but he's not.

 

:confused:

 

You can't say Paul wasn't gay with any more validity than someone can say he was.

 

But, of course, speculating that someone is gay (or not) isn't an issue of concern for many people posting in this thread.

 

What's up with the Tebow reference? :confused:

[NittanyJen]

It's not just "we all sin so don't judge". Or "love the sinner hate the sin." it's simply that i dont think it is a sin.

 

Can anyone point me to Christian authors who might help me clarify my thinking on this? I have read a lot of Spong and similar "liberal" authors. I have read a lot about the theory that Paul was himself a gay man.

 

Thoughts?

 

I tend to agree with you. I don't think it is a sin in the first place. One of the more famously quoted verses that people quote to "prove" that is supposed to be bad is not, in fact, about loving, committed relationships. If you read the entire section of that chapter, know your ancient history and a bit of the language and how it was translated, and understand the culture from which it was written, you can see that what was actually going on around that section was that some men were being approached by the men of the town in anger and being threatened by (euphemism coming) "group violence of same-gender TEA."

 

That is a long, long way from two people forming a committed, single couple relationship, and the verses condemning the actions have nothing to do with a couple forming a lasting union, the way I read it and the way our local church reads it.

 

Much great harm has come, historically, from people reading isolated verses from the Bible rather than reading and understanding the greater context, in order to separate the world into "us" and "them" in order to feel good about being part of the "us."

 

Secondly, as I understand my personal faith at this time, we are not meant to separate ourselves from our fellow men and women. Jesus paid attention to the poor, the lepers, the untouchables of his time. He ministered to those who the people in his time said were abominations to their God, and said, "No, these too are God's children." He never made any statements about marriage being man and woman, in any part of the Bible that I have ever read. He said to love one another, to love thy neighbor.

 

I have a relative who is gay. She knew from the time she was very, very small. It is not a 'decision' she made. To have to refute that part of herself would be to forgo normal, loving relationships in her life to which the rest of the world is entitled, or else to enter a relationship with a male, and lie about who she is. Either condition would be wrong, and create a separation from God. Anything that creates a breach in your relationship with yourself, with the others around you, or with your spirituality causes a breach with God, and that is pretty much the definition of sin. So in that way of looking at things, denying her the chance to have what is for her a natural relationship with another woman would in fact, be the sin.

 

So in my faith, it is a very clear matter to accept homosexuality and to be a Christian. We are not supposed to create sin. I don't believe the Bible forbids loving relationships or denying your true nature. I don't believe God wishes us to divide ourselves into the "inner circle" and "those outside." I think he wants everyone to be on the inside.

[jewellsmommy]

Well, a 12 year old who never had access to alcohol would never be an alcoholic. I know recovering alcoholics who live perfectly fine lives not drinking anymore. I know people who have stopped looking at p&rn and have good relationships.

 

My question is, are there people who stopped desiring same sex relationships and now prefer hetero? I have met people who accept hetero because it's what you do to be normal but they were never happy and still gay.

 

 

I know one. I went to high school with a very overt homosexual young man. He was very, very "in your face" about it. (I don't mean this in an ugly way at all). I always wondered if he was trying to convince others or himself, kwim?

He had a few relationships that I sort of knew about. 15ish years later, he married a woman he dearly loved. He never said that it had anything to do with a religious conversion and I never asked, not really my business. But i did make me wonder, did he truly switch or what?

 

The other "switches" I know of go the other way:

 

I knew a female couple where one had always considered them self homosexual, but the other had been married to an abusive man. She had 2 daughters and eventually left the man. She said that she just didn't want anything to do with men anymore, but had been 'very much hetero" in her words. The second female couple I knew had a somewhat similar story, only both the women had formerly been married to men and had bad experiences.

 

I have never met a bi-sexual male, but have met 2 women who made that claim. It made me wonder if that is a more common thing among women.

 

I don't know where I stand on the whole born/made/decision concept of homosexuality. I don't know that it is my place to have an opinion either way. The rest of what I think I generally keep to myself.:001_smile:

[Cricket]

So you would agree that people born desiring those of the same sex just have a difficult cross to bear in that they will have to spend their lives denying themselves sexual and emotional satisfaction while the rest of the people who struggle with sins ranging from lying to anger to pride are all free to enjoy relationships which provide sexual and emotional satisfaction?

 

I'm glad this has gotten to 13 pages and hasn't gotten ugly! I've struggled with this same thing myself. In fact, I wondered this same thing last week. In the last few days I've become convinced of a few things. First, I don't believe we were created to find satisfaction in sex, friendships, or even our marriages. We were created to find complete satisfaction in Christ. All the blessings of this world are wonderful but they are not our purpose in life. I recently read this in Charlotte Mason's writings: "Will religion guarantee me my private and personal happiness? To this on the whole I think we must answer No.....True religion will not do this for me because the final form of the religion that will do these things is idolatry, self-worship, with no intention beyond self." I really have a problem with Christian pastors who are little more than motivational speakers. Our purpose in life isn't to have our best life now. To me, THAT is flippant and trite. It contains no help for anyone who is struggling. I think in this country religion has become just another commodity for fulfilling our own desires.

 

As others have pointed out, there are many people who are denied blessings. Some couples have a tremendous desire for children and never have them. Some of those same couples are convicted that IVF is wrong so they deny themselves the possibility of ever bearing their own children even though the opportunity exists. Many married couples are not satisfied sexually or emotionally. Being heterosexual and married is no guarantee of happiness. So I guess my quick answer to your question is yes (although I think people can have emotionally fulfilling relationships that don't involve sex). I think you are right--often it seems like Christians act like this is all easy, especially if they aren't struggling with the same sins as someone else. I think it is simple but not easy. But where were we, as Christians, ever promised our way would be free of suffering?

[I.Dup.]

I'm glad this has gotten to 13 pages and hasn't gotten ugly! I've struggled with this same thing myself. In fact, I wondered this same thing last week. In the last few days I've become convinced of a few things. First, I don't believe we were created to find satisfaction in sex, friendships, or even our marriages. We were created to find complete satisfaction in Christ. All the blessings of this world are wonderful but they are not our purpose in life. I recently read this in Charlotte Mason's writings: "Will religion guarantee me my private and personal happiness? To this on the whole I think we must answer No.....True religion will not do this for me because the final form of the religion that will do these things is idolatry, self-worship, with no intention beyond self." I really have a problem with Christian pastors who are little more than motivational speakers. Our purpose in life isn't to have our best life now. To me, THAT is flippant and trite. It contains no help for anyone who is struggling. I think in this country religion has become just another commodity for fulfilling our own desires.

 

As others have pointed out, there are many people who are denied blessings. Some couples have a tremendous desire for children and never have them. Some of those same couples are convicted that IVF is wrong so they deny themselves the possibility of ever bearing their own children even though the opportunity exists. Many married couples are not satisfied sexually or emotionally. Being heterosexual and married is no guarantee of happiness. So I guess my quick answer to your question is yes (although I think people can have emotionally fulfilling relationships that don't involve sex). I think you are right--often it seems like Christians act like this is all easy, especially if they aren't struggling with the same sins as someone else. I think it is simple but not easy. But where were we, as Christians, ever promised our way would be free of suffering?

 

This is good.

 

Very thought-provoking thread. Things like this are what keep me coming back here. :tongue_smilie:

 

And this thread is only on 3 pages for me. I have "display 50 posts per page" checked under my options menu.

[BlueTaelon]

I've only read the first page and I'm not a christian but I did watch an interesting documentary on Netflix called "Fish out of Water" that dissects a lot of the stuff in the bible Christians use to hate gays and lesbians. Haven't read any books on the subject though but if your up for a video check it out:)

[Runningmom80]

I thought my OP was clear. My apologies.

 

 

It was. :glare:

[dancer67]

I have not read any of the other replies, but I want to applaud the OP for starting this thread. I am a Christian, and support gay marriage.

 

Interesting that this thread was started today, as I just got back from a bridal shower. Yes, the bride is a lesbian and I am proud to say I am one of her Brides Maids. My DH, is her partners best man.

 

They are raising a beautiful, well mannered, well rounded 7 year old daughter.

 

They are one of the most loving couples I know.

 

You can't help who you fall in love with. You just do.:001_smile:

[Runningmom80]

Me too, although I describe myself as clinging to the far liberal end of Christianity, so I may not count. ;)

 

I recognize I might be wrong about this. I've already gone through one major faith upheaval in my life, so it would be silly if I were black-and-white about my current beliefs.

 

And yet, if I am wrong, the side of love and acceptance and focusing on my own issues instead of other people's seems like the right side to err on.

 

 

I totally agree with this. I can't imagine God condemning me for wanting my friends to live happy, and fulfilled lives.

 

I'm actually finding it hard to identify myself as "Christian" anymore. The God I believe in is not a God who would create someone a certain way just so they can spend their whole lives suffering and in judgement.

[Bluegoat]

Actually, thinking of the Bible in literalistic terms rather than a humanly wrote, divinely inspired literature *metaphor* is the new thought. It was written, canon chosen, and it was declared scripture (by humans) when humans accepted that the writers were hyperbolic as a literary style.

 

Contemporary, Western influenced, conservative Christianity is not ancient.

 

This is a false dichotomy - we do not need to accept either a literalist view of scripture or a post-modern relativistic view. Historically the Church has not understood Scripture in either of these ways.

[annandatje]

Someone who wanted you and other like you to think he was made that up. He chose to stay single so he could spend his time spreading the gospel. Anytime anyone isn't married or hasn't been in relationships doesn't automatically make them gay. I'm betting people on here think Tim Tebow is gay as well. ... but he's not.

 

 

How in the world could you know with any degree of confidence whether either of the two men you mentioned are gay? One lived so long ago that no alleged lovers would be coming out of the woodwork, and, as far I know, the football player has graciously kept his private intimate life private.

[Cindy in FL.]

Believing that the Bible declares homosexuality wrong doesn't mean that you hate homosexuals or are homophobic. Jesus not making direct statements about homosexuality doesn't mean He is saying it's not a sin. Jesus upheld he Old Testament in His teachings. It really doesn't matter what culture says is right to a Christian, it matters what God says.

 

Cindy

[Denise in Florida]

Believing that the Bible declares homosexuality wrong doesn't mean that you hate homosexuals or are homophobic. Jesus not making direct statements about homosexuality doesn't mean He is saying it's not a sin. Jesus upheld he Old Testament in His teachings. It really doesn't matter what culture says is right to a Christian, it matters what God says.

 

Cindy

 

This is true, however, Christians do not all agree on what God says. Christians have studied the Bible for thousands of years, yet it is still profitable to study it today. It still lives and unfolds. The many denominations that exist is one indication that not every one agrees on what they read.

 

Unfortunately the visible part of Christianity, the part that most non-christians see, does not seem to separate 'sin' from 'hatred'. This causes a great deal of pain and grief.

[dancer67]

I totally agree with this. I can't imagine God condemning me for wanting my friends to live happy, and fulfilled lives.

 

I'm actually finding it hard to identify myself as "Christian" anymore. The God I believe in is not a God who would create someone a certain way just so they can spend their whole lives suffering and in judgement.

:iagree::iagree:

[PinkInTheBlue]

I totally agree with this. I can't imagine God condemning me for wanting my friends to live happy, and fulfilled lives.

 

I'm actually finding it hard to identify myself as "Christian" anymore. The God I believe in is not a God who would create someone a certain way just so they can spend their whole lives suffering and in judgement.

 

:iagree: Thank you for putting my words in print for me. ;)

 

It was thoughts like these and other similar questions that lead to me dismissing the Bible as any book that could possibly be written by God. *To me* the Bible is the worst representation of what a god would be. How cruel would a god be to create a being to desire a love that He would never allow that person to have?

 

I believe in love, stability, happiness, and commitment to love.

[justamouse]

I totally agree with this. I can't imagine God condemning me for wanting my friends to live happy, and fulfilled lives.

 

I'm actually finding it hard to identify myself as "Christian" anymore. The God I believe in is not a God who would create someone a certain way just so they can spend their whole lives suffering and in judgement.

 

Well, first off, we all suffer. And we can chose how to live so it's all up to us. God didn't *make* them homosexual. WE live in a world that is far from perfect, we're a product of that world.

 

We all suffer and we're all judged, every day, on what we do in our lives.

 

So would mas@tion be okay, because I cannot believe all those committed to celibacy are not relying on it as a form of release. What about those org&sms that occur while sleeping? What would be the church's stance on that?

 

*That* is unconscious. You didn't will it, there's a difference. In the same way that if you are ignorant of sin, then it is not. Though you can't feign ignorance for a get out of jail free card. ;)

 

I agree with this. I just don't like flippantly acting like denying sexual satisfaction is such a small thing. It's probably the # 1 reason most men get married/pursue a relationship in the first place, and it's easy to luckily be born with the right drive. Let's imagine that the rule was, if you are selfish or angry, you have to give up sex.

 

 

I'm saying this gently. Turn this around. You're belittling the suffering of everyone else because you're putting sexual suffering on a pedestal.

 

Everyone has their own cross to bear. Every person's cross is heavy to them. Be kind, for everyone is fighting a great battle.

 

Suffering can be a gift. When my kids hit a rough patch and I'll tell them to "Give it up to God." That's not me being trite and telling them to 'suck it up', that's me telling them to offer it to Christ, who suffered for all. It's perfecting us. It's making us saints. How we respond helps us to holiness.

 

You can't get out of this life pain free. The question is what you are going to do with it.

[justamouse]

:iagree: Thank you for putting my words in print for me. ;)

 

It was thoughts like these and other similar questions that lead to me dismissing the Bible as any book that could possibly be written by God. *To me* the Bible is the worst representation of what a god would be. How cruel would a god be to create a being to desire a love that He would never allow that person to have?

 

I believe in love, stability, happiness, and commitment to love.

 

This is a false dichotomy. There are people born every day with tragic birth defects. God did not create them that way, but He'll give them the strength to turn their defects into something beautiful-he writes straight with crooked lines. I've taken care of many people whose lives cannot contain physical intimacy. They find other ways to show it, and their marriages are so far more intimate than my own.

 

Again, ALL of us desire things we can't have. Why is sexual desire being put up as THE desire of all?

[marbel]

...

I'm saying this gently. Turn this around. You're belittling the suffering of everyone else because you're putting sexual suffering on a pedestal.

 

Everyone has their own cross to bear. Every person's cross is heavy to them. Be kind, for everyone is fighting a great battle.

 

Suffering can be a gift. When my kids hit a rough patch and I'll tell them to "Give it up to God." That's not me being trite and telling them to 'suck it up', that's me telling them to offer it to Christ, who suffered for all. It's perfecting us. It's making us saints. How we respond helps us to holiness.

 

You can't get out of this life pain free. The question is what you are going to do with it.

 

That is just so beautiful. Thank you.

Edited July 23, 2012 by marbel

[Kathryn]

Well, first off, we all suffer. And we can chose how to live so it's all up to us. God didn't *make* them homosexual. WE live in a world that is far from perfect, we're a product of that world.

 

We all suffer and we're all judged, every day, on what we do in our lives.

 

I'm saying this gently. Turn this around. You're belittling the suffering of everyone else because you're putting sexual suffering on a pedestal.

 

Everyone has their own cross to bear. Every person's cross is heavy to them. Be kind, for everyone is fighting a great battle.

 

Suffering can be a gift. When my kids hit a rough patch and I'll tell them to "Give it up to God." That's not me being trite and telling them to 'suck it up', that's me telling them to offer it to Christ, who suffered for all. It's perfecting us. It's making us saints. How we respond helps us to holiness.

 

You can't get out of this life pain free. The question is what you are going to do with it.

 

This is a false dichotomy. There are people born every day with tragic birth defects. God did not create them that way, but He'll give them the strength to turn their defects into something beautiful-he writes straight with crooked lines. I've taken care of many people whose lives cannot contain physical intimacy. They find other ways to show it, and their marriages are so far more intimate than my own.

 

Again, ALL of us desire things we can't have. Why is sexual desire being put up as THE desire of all?

 

I completely agree.

[FairyMom]

I'm an agnostic and former Christian, with Christian/earthy leanings. It is your type of thinking that put me on that path. I gave up trying to align what *I* believe with anyone's interpretation of a book.

 

Me too.

[marbel]

I'm an agnostic and former Christian, with Christian/earthy leanings. It is your type of thinking that put me on that path. I gave up trying to align what *I* believe with anyone's interpretation of a book.

 

How did you come to believe what you do? What is the basis of your beliefs? What do you mean by "Christian/earthy leanings?"

 

(That is not meant to be snarky, if it sounds that way. Sincere question!)

[justamouse]

We had a guest priest for Mass tonight. He was severely facially disfigured. The kind of disfigured that you knew got a lot of teasing and name calling as a child. Some would call him grotesque. I can't imagine the pain of his life.

 

He kept his head low, during the service. He didn't look up a lot, apart from the consecration, but let me tell you, his homily was profound, and one of the best homilies-sermons if you will-I'd heard in my life. Full of love, compassion, empathy, that I'm sure he learned through his life.

 

He was beautiful. He was amazing, gloriously, beautiful. What an offering his life must be, and what a gift he'd received in return.

 

Even saying that, I don't think I'd want to suffer as he did for the gift he has. I don't know if I'd be able to bear it.

[Karis]

Interesting...

 

 

How do those of you who hold this view reconcile or interpret Romans 1:18-32?

[Lovedtodeath]

I gave up trying to align what *I* believe with anyone's interpretation of a book.

I completely agree!

[mom4him]

I think that when you dig deep into this, you will find that the most nuanced, Biblical views are the homosexuality itself is not a sin, but that acting on it is. And this is hard to accept. I wish that this was not the Biblical position, but it is, so I accept it, but reluctantly, and not failing in love for my fellow humans who struggle with this. Some of the most loving relationships I have observed are gay ones. I will not pretend that this is not so.

 

I don't think that expressing extreme repugnance about this issue, as some Christians do, is right or Christian. This is not the 'worst sin' nor the 'unforgivable one'. By the same token, though, I don't think that liberal churches do people any favors when they pretend that it is not a sin at all--that is a spiritually dangerous stance to take, given the Biblical injunctions against this behavior. To paper this over, to pretend that this behavior is not sinful, is to leave people without the call to repentance that they need. That is not right. Not to identify this as wrong is dangerous to those who are thus tempted, because it leaves out what God says about it.

:iagree:

[mom4him]

I think one can still struggle with pornography but not view it. One can still struggle with alcoholism and not drink. I'm not sure how much of a choice is involved there either. I think today we tend to gloss over sin and have no understanding of how deep it goes. It's quite offensive to most people and I get that. But that is also what makes the Gospel so incredibly amazing.

 

As far as the theory of Paul being gay, I'd really like to know any proof of that besides an author's wishful thinking. :confused:

 

:iagree: again!:001_smile:

[PinkInTheBlue]

Interesting...

 

 

How do those of you who hold this view reconcile or interpret Romans 1:18-32?

 

I don't believe the Bible is the word of God. I believe history proves its a book made by men for their personal reasons. :) It took a long time to admit to myself that's what I always felt during my years in the church including being the preacher's wife.

[Lovedtodeath]

Suffering can be a gift. When my kids hit a rough patch and I'll tell them to "Give it up to God." That's not me being trite and telling them to 'suck it up', that's me telling them to offer it to Christ, who suffered for all. It's perfecting us. It's making us saints. How we respond helps us to holiness.

 

You can't get out of this life pain free. The question is what you are going to do with it.

:iagree:Suffering causes me to rely more on God

 

and when I do His Spirit gives exquisite peace.

[Runningmom80]

Well, first off, we all suffer. And we can chose how to live so it's all up to us. God didn't *make* them homosexual. WE live in a world that is far from perfect, we're a product of that world.

 

We all suffer and we're all judged, every day, on what we do in our lives.

 

 

 

*That* is unconscious. You didn't will it, there's a difference. In the same way that if you are ignorant of sin, then it is not. Though you can't feign ignorance for a get out of jail free card. ;)

 

 

 

 

I'm saying this gently. Turn this around. You're belittling the suffering of everyone else because you're putting sexual suffering on a pedestal.

 

Everyone has their own cross to bear. Every person's cross is heavy to them. Be kind, for everyone is fighting a great battle.

 

Suffering can be a gift. When my kids hit a rough patch and I'll tell them to "Give it up to God." That's not me being trite and telling them to 'suck it up', that's me telling them to offer it to Christ, who suffered for all. It's perfecting us. It's making us saints. How we respond helps us to holiness.

 

You can't get out of this life pain free. The question is what you are going to do with it.

 

I think never being able to be who you truly are is a different kind of suffering than most.