TranquilMind Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I disagree, obviously, but let's jus pretend there was incontrovertible proof that gay people are BORN that way. What would you say then? It will never be found. Even the experts honestly admit it is likely a mixture of factors, environmental and otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 (edited) And there are multitudes more scholars that believe that Paul's problem was an eye problem, as he indicates elsewhere that he is writing with veyr large letters and thanks the people that he felt they loved him enough that they would have plucked out their own eyes and given them to him. Galatians 6:11 See with what large letters I am writing to you with my own hand Galatians 4:13-15 13As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you. 14Even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself. 15What has happened to all your joy? I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me. 16Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? I wasn't arguing that I agree. I was answering the question. Have a good Sunday. Edited July 22, 2012 by Joanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elfgivas Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 :iagree: I believe homosexuality is not something a person is born with. I believe it is a response--sometimes subconscious--to environmental stimulus, but a choice nonetheless. Just as a person might struggle with pornography addiction, drug addiction, or alcoholism, he might also struggle with homosexuality. To embrace any of these sins as a lifestyle is wrong. I know that this is not a popular opinion, and it's certainly not politically correct, but I believe it is biblical. i think, like most science, its not a matter of belief, its a matter of what we discover about how the world works. current research indicates a link between prenatal hormone level and sexual orientation. http://www.springerlink.com/content/u7m0m15u734x7h46/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/256836 + Dörner et al. 1983, Money et al. 1984, Ehrhardt et al. 1985 to take that into the realm of belief, if one believes God knows us in the womb, and creates us as we are, then this would mean that God created homosexuals that way on purpose... and for a purpose.... fwiw, ann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommy5 Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality.. 1 Corinthians 6:9 There is plenty written about those who practice homosexuality in the Bible (both Old and New Testament). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elfgivas Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 @ op... the united church of canada put together several resources back in the 80s when they were discerning God's will around the ordination of homosexuals. the first thing we worked on was discerning the "nature and authority of scripture". this was a fabulous study that really looked at what we know about the bible and how we know it. we all learned a whole lot that is usually only studied in theological colleges. i will keep trying to find a link to the actual study guide. here is a link to a guide that came out afterwards. http://www.welcomingresources.org/education.xml'>http://www.welcomingresources.org/education.xml once we had come to a (mostly) common understanding about the nature and authority of scripture, we were able to look at it with new eyes and hearts around a variety of issues, including the ordination of homosexuals. here is a link to a list of resources currently available. http://www.welcomingresources.org/education.xml hth, ann ps. for those who don't know, the united church of canada is the largest denomination in canada, and was formed by the presbyterian, methodist and congregational churches coming together to form one denomination. this happened as the west was opened, and each town built one church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraidycat Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 It's not just "we all sin so don't judge". Or "love the sinner hate the sin." it's simply that i dont think it is a sin. Thoughts? :iagree::iagree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted July 22, 2012 Author Share Posted July 22, 2012 Not readings, but I posted this video link on the other thread:http://www.advocate.com/op-ed/2012/05/01/opinion-do-not-give-christian-gays A gay conservative Christian Harvard student took two years off college to deeply study biblical teachings on homosexuality. Also, the movie "For the Bible Tells Me So" (available on Netflix) has many Christian leaders explaining their views on homosexuality and their interpretations of the relevant biblical passages. Thank you! I have that movie in my queue, but haven't watched it yet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 (edited) Fornication is a sin but I do not believe married homosexuals, in a committed relationship are sinning. Edited July 22, 2012 by Sis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted July 22, 2012 Author Share Posted July 22, 2012 Fornication is a sin but I do not believe married homosexuals, in a committed relationship are sinning. Interesting. I hadn't thought of just the "sex outside of a marriage" being the sin. I too agree that a committed relationship is critical, and that sex outside of that is a sin. I think love is the key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIch elle Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I am Episcopalian and do not believe that homosexually is a sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jilly Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I am Episcopalian and do not believe that homosexually is a sin. Fellow Episcopalian here and :iagree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 The tags are rude. If you don't have something nice to say don't tag it. The mods can tell who is tagging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 (edited) Not readings, but I posted this video link on the other thread:http://www.advocate.com/op-ed/2012/05/01/opinion-do-not-give-christian-gays A gay conservative Christian Harvard student took two years off college to deeply study biblical teachings on homosexuality. Also, the movie "For the Bible Tells Me So" (available on Netflix) has many Christian leaders explaining their views on homosexuality and their interpretations of the relevant biblical passages. Thanks Frances, I will watch that. There are people I have known since grade school who are gay. They were always like that. I believe they are born that way. I don't believe God would restrict a whole group of people from ever knowing love. I believe that God knows what he is doing. I think they should be free from the sin of fornication, same as any of us who are married. Edited July 22, 2012 by Sis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6packofun Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 So you would agree that people born desiring those of the same sex just have a difficult cross to bear in that they will have to spend their lives denying themselves sexual and emotional satisfaction while the rest of the people who struggle with sins ranging from lying to anger to pride are all free to enjoy relationships which provide sexual and emotional satisfaction? In a word, yes. :) Does God say that expressing oneself sexually is a *right*? There are countless scenarios where single people do not find a spouse and yet they still choose to remain celibate. And this has nothing to do with "emotional satisfaction" because it can come regardless of sexual activity. To what circumstance does Matthew 16:24 NOT apply? Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. It's not up to me to require someone to take up this cross because I can simply point to the Bible. Sorry, it's IN there. Because of the high value that our society places upon sex and self-expression as it's own god, IMO, it is that much harder for Christian gays and lesbians to follow this path. But MANY are. Many have read God's Word and come to the conclusion that they may always feel that attraction and temptation but that purity is for them as well, just as it is for everyone else, and they take up that tremendously difficult cross to follow Christ with their WHOLE lives. I think this is a good article, however the title sucks. http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/05/09/how-to-win-the-public-on-homosexuality/ I don't believe in "winning the public" on homosexuality; I'm concerned that every person I meet--and myself first and foremost--believe what God says to be true and makes that their new reality as they walk with Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I hesitate to participate... I'm a fairly new Christian (3.5 years now). I've always believed consenting adults should be legally allowed to marry and enjoy the same rights, and that the government should stay out of what religious bodies decide. Now, as a Christian, I do have a conflict in what *I* feel is moral or not and what it appears to me that the Bible says is or is not on this issue. I am thankful that it is not a personal issue for me, and I'm not in church leadership, so I count it as not my concern, just like any other behavior of other people is not my concern. I do believe that the vast majority of homosexuals are born that way. I don't think that in and of itself is the proof that it's okay in a Christian context. There are many predispositions that people are born with that we decide must be changed or worked on. For me personally, the overarching message of Jesus was love, not judgment. As I said, I'm glad I'm not in a position to have to decide if it's Biblically a sin or not. But, if it is, I don't see anywhere in the Bible that says its more of a sin than any other sin mentioned that most everyone does. I don't judge others' sins, it's not my job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 In a word, yes. :) Does God say that expressing oneself sexually is a *right*? There are countless scenarios where single people do not find a spouse and yet they still choose to remain celibate. And this has nothing to do with "emotional satisfaction" because it can come regardless of sexual activity. To what circumstance does Matthew 16:24 NOT apply? Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. It's not up to me to require someone to take up this cross because I can simply point to the Bible. Sorry, it's IN there. Because of the high value that our society places upon sex and self-expression as it's own god, IMO, it is that much harder for Christian gays and lesbians to follow this path. But MANY are. Many have read God's Word and come to the conclusion that they may always feel that attraction and temptation but that purity is for them as well, just as it is for everyone else, and they take up that tremendously difficult cross to follow Christ with their WHOLE lives. I don't think we should place stumbling blocks in front of them to prevent them being free from that burden if they have the will, the opportunity, and the commitment. "To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I do. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion." (1 Corinthians 7:8-9 RSV) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBM Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Even the experts honestly admit it is likely a mixture of factors, environmental and otherwise. A friend of mine who is a gay affirmative therapist (GAT) and is gay himself believes this. He thinks there is a strong psychological component that might physically alter the brain during childhood making it more feminine. A small study of donated brains from deceased gay men does show that their brains are similar to women's in at least two key ways. What causes that or whether it can be altered is not known. Some do try psychotherapy to curb themselves and/or diminish their desires. I have two friends who did this. One was the GAT, who cut down on anonymous encounters, and the other considers himself heterosexual now and has been married to a woman for 15 years and is a father to two. Both went to Harvard and are not total dummies. So, who knows. Anyway, whether nature or nurture is the cause, they are deserving of love and compassion. Please don't hate them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly1730 Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality.. 1 Corinthians 6:9 There is plenty written about those who practice homosexuality in the Bible (both Old and New Testament). Thank you for this. I read this whole thread hoping that someone actually used scripture to answer Halcyon's question. We can all state what we do and do not believe about homosexuality, what Paul might or might not have meant or even what God might or might not have intended but, speaking as a bible believing Christian, we cannot pick and chose which scripture we approve of and dismiss those which we cannot explain. These are hard sayings, Paul says that:), but if we do not believe that the scriptures are the truth, the inerrant Word of God than I'm not sure we can call ourselves Christ Followers. This is, of course, not applicable to non-believers. I really don't like controversy and typically I would stay far away from a thread like this but it seemed like the thread was moving away from the question of homosexuality being a sin toward whether or not we should have the bible as a standard of truth. As Christians, if we don't take God's Word as truth than what standard or guidelines are we going by? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Anyway, whether nature or nurture is the cause, they are deserving of love and compassion. Please don't hate them. Agree with that, totally. The misinformation extolled as incontrovertible fact just should be corrected, that's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 (edited) Keep your law out of my gospel! (do a google search on this) Practically everything we do is a sin. Using what is a sin as a list of things not to do doesn't work. I know that everything in this world is fallen, so I ask God to bless my food before I eat. Killing someone who is about to harm your family is a sin, it is not God's perfect plan. Divorce is a sin, it is not God's perfect plan. Does that mean that you should avoid killing and divorce no matter what? NO! Sometimes not killing and not divorcing would be worse... but all is short of God's perfect plan! I will not teach my children that God is happy if they don't steal or lie or commit immorality. I will teach my children that God is happy if they are covered with the righteousness of Christ. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.-- Romans 3:21-23 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.-- 2 Corinthians 5:21 Edited July 22, 2012 by Lovedtodeath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Anyway, whether nature or nurture is the cause, they are deserving of love and compassion. Please don't hate them.:iagree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Thank you for this. I read this whole thread hoping that someone actually used scripture to answer Halcyon's question. We can all state what we do and do not believe about homosexuality, what Paul might or might not have meant or even what God might or might not have intended but, speaking as a bible believing Christian, we cannot pick and chose which scripture we approve of and dismiss those which we cannot explain. These are hard sayings, Paul says that:), but if we do not believe that the scriptures are the truth, the inerrant Word of God than I'm not sure we can call ourselves Christ Followers. This is, of course, not applicable to non-believers. That's the whole point though. Scripture must not mean what it says, when we are specifically told not to do this or that (particularly with reference to relationships), if this or that is what we want to do. First world modern Christianity problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Dup. Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 That's the whole point though. Scripture must not mean what it says, when we are specifically told not to do this or that (particularly with reference to relationships), if this or that is what we want to do. First world modern Christianity problem. I used to feel this way. Now I wonder what concern it should be of mine? We are so concerned with sin as Christians that I wonder if we have totally missed the point. Is it up to us to convict other Christians? I do not know for sure but I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBM Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 The misinformation extolled as incontrovertible fact just should be corrected, that's all. Oh, yeah! I didn't mean to direct my comments toward you or anyone in particular in this thread. I am texting two people on my phone and trying to type here. Probably not a good idea. :-P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I used to feel this way. Now I wonder what concern it should be of mine? We are so concerned with sin as Christians that I wonder if we have totally missed the point. Is it up to us to convict other Christians? I do not know for sure but I don't think so. :iagree: that was exactly what I was getting at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Lovedtodeath: Practically everything we do is a sin. I don't think this is true. 1 Corinthians 10:23 All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify. God won't strike us dead when we do scripturally-proscribed things, and by golly, I sure have tested Him on that, believe me. But, we bring issues and problems into our own lives that never had to be there when we do. Lawful, but but certainly not profitable or edifying. He's just trying to protect us, the same way we are trying to protect our children when we make them hold our hands instead of run off. Running isn't a sin, but it certainly could cause problems in the wrong place. I will not teach my children that God is happy if they don't steal or lie or commit immorality. I will teach my children that God is happy if they are covered with the righteousness of Christ. However, I agree here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Further, it is the Holy Spirit's job to convict others of their sin. If a homosexual accepts Christ I will rejoice! If a homosexual claims to be my brother or sister I will believe them. I will trust God to take care of any sin in their life. That's His job. Not mine. 2 Corinthians 3:18; Galatians 3:3 ETA: Oh yay, I hadn't read much in the thread. I see others saying this! :001_wub: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise in Florida Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I spent a long time researching, praying, and thinking about this issue. I went through a period of time in the space you seem to be. I don't have authors/answers for you ~ but I can say it has been a long, lonely journey. My thoughts exactly. Joanne, I am still on the journey and sometimes feel like I start back at step one over and over. OP, No I do not think it is a sin. But I have no great expert advice detailing why. Thank you for the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WiseOwlKnits Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 It's not just "we all sin so don't judge". Or "love the sinner hate the sin." it's simply that i dont think it is a sin. Thoughts? :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: I feel the same way. My God doesn't condemn people simply based on who He made them to be. And yes, I get that it's "controversial" to believe that God made people gay, rather than them sinning by choosing to be gay. I don't believe that one either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I used to feel this way. Now I wonder what concern it should be of mine? We are so concerned with sin as Christians that I wonder if we have totally missed the point. Is it up to us to convict other Christians? I do not know for sure but I don't think so. No, it isn't up to us. Indeed, we cannot even do it at all. Any parent knows that. You can yell at your kids and try to correct them until you are blue in the face, but unless the kid feels inside that he needs to correct something, you are totally wasting your time. Ask me how I know. The Holy Spirit convicts, not us. Sometimes, though, a person is used (usually without his knowledge), or a book, or a tv program, or even a sunset or something. I guess I don't view debates like this as part of that process. I see this as merely many individuals with highly disparate opinions simply sharing them and examining their parameters. No minds are changed for the better on forums, I am convinced, on such matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 (edited) Thank you for this. I read this whole thread hoping that someone actually used scripture to answer Halcyon's question. We can all state what we do and do not believe about homosexuality, what Paul might or might not have meant or even what God might or might not have intended but, speaking as a bible believing Christian, we cannot pick and chose which scripture we approve of and dismiss those which we cannot explain. These are hard sayings, Paul says that:), but if we do not believe that the scriptures are the truth, the inerrant Word of God than I'm not sure we can call ourselves Christ Followers. This is, of course, not applicable to non-believers. I really don't like controversy and typically I would stay far away from a thread like this but it seemed like the thread was moving away from the question of homosexuality being a sin toward whether or not we should have the bible as a standard of truth. As Christians, if we don't take God's Word as truth than what standard or guidelines are we going by? There is extensive information regarding homosexuality in among the Ancient Greeks and Romans, much of it was with slaves or prostitutes. This would be in addition to being married to a woman. Some would keep a male concubine before their marriage to a woman. Soldiers, who were forbidden to marry, utilized prostitutes of either sex. Roman law did not recognize gay marriage. Many of the laws in the Bible were to set its followers apart from other pagan faiths and practices, such as the restrictions on pork. I don't know that the Bible is specifically referring to committed relationships, since that is specifically NOT what was going on in Rome. I do think there is room for questioning what is meant by that, compassion for our fellow man, and knowledge that God knows more than we do. "To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I do. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion." (1 Corinthians 7:8-9 RSV) If God didn't want people to be "aflame with passion" why then would he leave so many in the dust? I don't think he would. That's what I believe anyways, I am sure not everyone does. Edited July 22, 2012 by Sis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 The Holy Spirit convicts, not us. Sometimes, though, a person is used (usually without his knowledge), or a book, or a tv program, or even ... something said on a forum discussion. ;) I am living proof! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted July 22, 2012 Author Share Posted July 22, 2012 No, it isn't up to us. Indeed, we cannot even do it at all. Any parent knows that. You can yell at your kids and try to correct them until you are blue in the face, but unless the kid feels inside that he needs to correct something, you are totally wasting your time. Ask me how I know. The Holy Spirit convicts, not us. Sometimes, though, a person is used (usually without his knowledge), or a book, or a tv program, or even a sunset or something. I guess I don't view debates like this as part of that process. I see this as merely many individuals with highly disparate opinions simply sharing them and examining their parameters. No minds are changed for the better on forums, I am convinced, on such matters. I don't want my mind changed, to be honest. What i wanted was to hear from some Christians who believe as I do: what they enjoyed reading, speakers they heard who helped them parse their belief, any illumination they could shed on how they approached the Bible/church/religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly1730 Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I used to feel this way. Now I wonder what concern it should be of mine? We are so concerned with sin as Christians that I wonder if we have totally missed the point. Is it up to us to convict other Christians? I do not know for sure but I don't think so. No, it's the Holy Spirit's job to do the convicting not ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Because not every Christian believes in the Bible in the same way, with the same perspective, that it is intended or developed in the same way you do. This is the post modern school of subjectivity and relativism that runs by the rule do as you will and harm none. Only in their pride, they really have no idea who they're harming and only seem to learn through hindsight. I'd rather have the foresight to know I don't know any better and not go there. Us humans aren't really the most ethical or pure driven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I don't want my mind changed, to be honest. What i wanted was to hear from some Christians who believe as I do: what they enjoyed reading, speakers they heard who helped them parse their belief, any illumination they could shed on how they approached the Bible/church/religion.I don't really know if homosexuality is a sin or not. Since I am not homosexual, it is really none of my business. I quoted you because I feel this is the best answer I can give specifically in reply to your OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise in Florida Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Me too, although I describe myself as clinging to the far liberal end of Christianity, so I may not count. ;) I recognize I might be wrong about this. I've already gone through one major faith upheaval in my life, so it would be silly if I were black-and-white about my current beliefs. And yet, if I am wrong, the side of love and acceptance and focusing on my own issues instead of other people's seems like the right side to err on.[/QUOTE] :iagree: I find that I am relearning, rediscovering my faith on a continuing basis. I believe in God and in the saving sacrifice of Jesus. Sometimes that is all I start with as I rebuild. I do not believe Homosexuality (or the expression of it in a committed relationship) is a sin. I do not believe the Bible is literal but I do believe it is the path to knowing God. I try to err on the side of mercy and grace since those are the rocks I am clinging to. :001_smile: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 This thread is making me so happy! :grouphug: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nestof3 Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 So would mas@tion be okay, because I cannot believe all those committed to celibacy are not relying on it as a form of release. What about those org&sms that occur while sleeping? What would be the church's stance on that? In a word, yes. :) Does God say that expressing oneself sexually is a *right*? There are countless scenarios where single people do not find a spouse and yet they still choose to remain celibate. And this has nothing to do with "emotional satisfaction" because it can come regardless of sexual activity. To what circumstance does Matthew 16:24 NOT apply? Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. It's not up to me to require someone to take up this cross because I can simply point to the Bible. Sorry, it's IN there. Because of the high value that our society places upon sex and self-expression as it's own god, IMO, it is that much harder for Christian gays and lesbians to follow this path. But MANY are. Many have read God's Word and come to the conclusion that they may always feel that attraction and temptation but that purity is for them as well, just as it is for everyone else, and they take up that tremendously difficult cross to follow Christ with their WHOLE lives. I think this is a good article, however the title sucks. http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/05/09/how-to-win-the-public-on-homosexuality/ I don't believe in "winning the public" on homosexuality; I'm concerned that every person I meet--and myself first and foremost--believe what God says to be true and makes that their new reality as they walk with Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cindy in FL. Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I believe it is a sin because that is what the Bible clearly teaches. There are, of course, countless other sins as well. We are also told that Christians are not to practice sin. Cindy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: I feel the same way. My God doesn't condemn people simply based on who He made them to be. And yes, I get that it's "controversial" to believe that God made people gay, rather than them sinning by choosing to be gay. I don't believe that one either. That's the whole issue, though. Does God "make someone to be" something and then condemn what He has made? I don't think so. People do what they want to do and then justify it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Here is what I will not compromise on: If you are a homosexual you need Jesus. If you do not have a Bible you need Jesus. If you are not a homosexual you need Jesus. If you have a Bible you need Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I don't want my mind changed, to be honest. What i wanted was to hear from some Christians who believe as I do: what they enjoyed reading, speakers they heard who helped them parse their belief, any illumination they could shed on how they approached the Bible/church/religion. So you did not want to hear from the rest of us? Make that clearer next time and we won't enter in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted July 22, 2012 Author Share Posted July 22, 2012 So you did not want to hear from the rest of us? Make that clearer next time and we won't enter in. I thought my OP was clear. My apologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 This is the post modern school of subjectivity and relativism that runs by the rule do as you will and harm none. Only in their pride, they really have no idea who they're harming and only seem to learn through hindsight. I'd rather have the foresight to know I don't know any better and not go there. Us humans aren't really the most ethical or pure driven. That's the wiccan rede: "An it harm none, do what thou wilt;" Yeah, I'd rather avoid problem and grief than have to extricate myself. Humans, myself included, are slow learners, though. In all different kinds of areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker Martin Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I think that overemphasis on personal fulfillment is part of our cultural moment. We're totally unaccustomed to the idea that we'd have to deny ourselves something, especially if we really really want it and are really really convinced that it will make us happy. "If something doesn't hurt anyone, what's the big deal? I need this to be happy." But the Gospel message is that God alone is sufficient for fulfillment and the purpose of life is not to feed our worldly desires. Do I know gay people? Yes, lots. Several of my best friends have been gay. Do I think that acting on homosexual temptations is sinful? Yes. I don't think that conclusion is escapable without some extraordinary wishful thinking. Am I going to denounce people in gay relationships or treat them differently? No, no moreso than I would any person, myself included. Homosexual sins are not some special class of sins, worse than all the others. Every person in this world is a sinner. God, forgive us and have mercy on us all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted July 22, 2012 Author Share Posted July 22, 2012 I do not believe Homosexuality (or the expression of it in a committed relationship) is a sin. I do not believe the Bible is literal but I do believe it is the path to knowing God. I try to err on the side of mercy and grace since those are the rocks I am clinging to. :001_smile: :iagree: This is me too. I just haven't found much reading or literature which espouses this particular perspective and was hoping someone could suggest more to me. I have read a fair number of "grace-oriented" books and really have enjoyed them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trish Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 One of these threads needs to be titled, The Well-Trained Libido vs "Fifty Shades of Nay." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I thought my OP was clear. My apologies. My apologies for chiming in. I'll bow out now. But it does look as if it has taken on a life of its own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I think that overemphasis on personal fulfillment is part of our cultural moment. We're totally unaccustomed to the idea that we'd have to deny ourselves something, especially if we really really want it and are really really convinced that it will make us happy. "If something doesn't hurt anyone, what's the big deal? I need this to be happy." But the Gospel message is that God alone is sufficient for fulfillment and the purpose of life is not to feed our worldly desires. Do I know gay people? Yes, lots. Several of my best friends have been gay. Do I think that acting on homosexual temptations is sinful? Yes. I don't think that conclusion is escapable without some extraordinary wishful thinking. Am I going to denounce people in gay relationships or treat them differently? No, no moreso than I would any person, myself included. Homosexual sins are not some special class of sins, worse than all the others. Every person in this world is a sinner. God, forgive us and have mercy on us all. Well-said. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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