Labradoodle Dilemma

[redsnapper]

We're getting a labroodle! (lab/poodle mix) The multigeneration kind, that's supposed to be the best for allergies.

 

Our dilemma is we contacted two breeders to join their guardian home programs. Meaning we would take one of their breeding animals as sort of a "legal guardian" until she's had 4 litters, then the dog officially becomes ours. It costs less than a quarter of the price, plus we get to be a part of the breeding process (FUN for this homeschool family!). We expected to go on waiting lists. Surprise! Both breeders need someone now (within the next few weeks at any rate) and we're first on both lists. Now, how to choose?

 

Breeder A:

- lives 20 mins away

- our families clicked very well

- they really like us

- program runs well, breeder in business for 3 years?

- offer to keep the dog for free when we go on vacations

- home is in the direction we generally head for vacations, so it's "on the way"

- like to have doggy playdates & doodle romps (big playdate for previous litters)

- pup will come to us with 3 weeks "head start" puppy training

- breeder will pay for additional training class

- will let us learn from her about dog breeding

- CON: the puppy she wants for us is a new pup she's getting from an AMAZING breeder/trainer in FL, who looks awesome, but we can't meet the pup ahead of time. Though we can always say no once we meet the pup, if we don't like her. Plus, the FL breeder posts tons of pictures and videos (esp. during puppy training) so we can see the puppy all along the journey.

 

Breeder B:

- lives 50 mins away

- very nice lady who runs a great program, breeder in business 12 years. She is who mentored Breeder A.

- price to get the dog is $200 less than Breeder A

- has two puppies on hand she wants to home, which we got to meet. Wonderful Sweet puppies! We like one very very much.

- CON: As I said, the lady is nice, but we're just business partners and you can tell it will remain at that distance. (which is okay, but it's fun to become friends with people you work with; but her business is so large she currently has over 30 guardian homes and can't be chummy with everybody)

- CON: we'd be fully responsible for most all puppy training costs

- Pro: but we got to meet the puppies to decide which we like best.

 

So, considering all this, we fully believe we really can't go wrong with the dogs. We do love one from Brdr B, but I don't see working with her as much of a positive experience as with Brdr A (though it's only 4 years out of 15+, and both look doable). And though Brdr B is $200 less initially, Brdr A is paying for her pup to come puppy trained and for a whole class that we'd do with the pup ourselves (may be worth it's weight in gold!)

 

Grrr... Help me think this through?

-Melissa

[lovinmomma]

Breeder A. There you go. I solved your dilemma. :tongue_smilie: lol

 

No, you're different pros and cons really sound like Breeder A would be the best choice. I used to breed german shepherds and I would go with A. :D

[Dory]

Go with the breeder that is closer. If there are any problems with the litter, it will be nice to have a breeder that is close enough to help out.

[ktgrok]

Breeder A. Breeder B has too many dogs. I don't like the smell of that.

[rgrin]

Breeder A. Breeder B has too many dogs. I don't like the smell of that.

 

:iagree:My thoughts exactly!

[SonshineLearner]

I'd go with Breeder A, as a free person for travel is worth a ton. I'd have that part in writing.... (and is that for the life of the dog??)

I'd think about if you are ok with her opinions... I mean, she'll be in your lives... it's kinda "her dog" for what... at least 4 years?? She may be opinionated about things... Think that part through.

 

Fun!! :)

[hana]

Another vote for Breeder A for the same reasons as everyone else.

 

And I'm sure you'll love the doodle you get--they're great dogs!

[OLG]

Another vote for breeder A. Just sounds like it will be more collaborative and the training is a huge plus! What fun to be getting a puppy - you will fall in love with any of them, I bet.

[Rose in BC]

Breeder A. Breeder B has too many dogs. I don't like the smell of that.

 

:iagree:

[eloquacious]

A vote for Breeder A. And then, do tell: are there allergy issues? And will you report back on how things go? We dearly want a dog, but both my older son and I are allergic.

[Tranquility7]

Breeder A, hands down.

 

And btw, don't overestimate meeting the puppy ahead of time. Puppies are often sold/promised quite early, and you honestly can't tell that much about them at that point (especially from just a quick visit - you do know more if you are whelping the litter yourself). We just got a pup, but we had to pick her out at 2 wks, and we honestly had no idea what her personality would ultimately be. If we'd wanted to wait to pick later, there wouldn't have been any pups left.

 

Also, my mom has shown and bred dogs for many, many years, including co-owning dogs that go on the show circuit with the other owner, but stay at my mom's house usually, or even maybe just stay at my mom's house when having and raising puppies. If you initially get a pup and as she grows you determine that her personality is not a good fit for your family, I would think it would not be a big deal to keep one of her puppies and sell her (or give her back to her breeder). Stuff like that frequently gets negotiated in these kinds of situations, in my experience. You might even mention it now to Breeder A, just so she knows you are a little concerned about not getting to pick out your own pup.

[goldberry]

Wow, 4 litters? How many litters do breeding dogs usually have?

[lovinmomma]

Breeder A, hands down.

 

And btw, don't overestimate meeting the puppy ahead of time. Puppies are often sold/promised quite early, and you honestly can't tell that much about them at that point (especially from just a quick visit - you do know more if you are whelping the litter yourself). We just got a pup, but we had to pick her out at 2 wks, and we honestly had no idea what her personality would ultimately be. If we'd wanted to wait to pick later, there wouldn't have been any pups left.

 

Also, my mom has shown and bred dogs for many, many years, including co-owning dogs that go on the show circuit with the other owner, but stay at my mom's house usually, or even maybe just stay at my mom's house when having and raising puppies. If you initially get a pup and as she grows you determine that her personality is not a good fit for your family, I would think it would not be a big deal to keep one of her puppies and sell her (or give her back to her breeder). Stuff like that frequently gets negotiated in these kinds of situations, in my experience. You might even mention it now to Breeder A, just so she knows you are a little concerned about not getting to pick out your own pup.

 

Agreed. Personality is certainly not easy to pick out at 2 weeks-ha! I used to show dogs, too, and we usually did personality tests at several stages. Also, at that age their temperament can change due to circumstances very quickly. Such as...being scared by an aggressive move by another dog in the home, etc.

[kitten18]

A :001_smile:

[lovinmomma]

Just a nonsense comment, but you can't tell what a dogs structure will look like at 2 week to even know if the dog is breed/show quality. :D

[WistfulRidge]

Definitely breeder A. Not only do they sound like the better breeder, but you want to have a good relationship with your breeder - especially in this type of co-own situation.

 

Wow, 4 litters? How many litters do breeding dogs usually have?

 

Assuming we are talking about a good, ethical breeder... it will vary pending a variety of things (the b*tch's health, mothering ability, breed, temperament, etc). I'd say anywhere from 1 - 6 is normal, with 6 being on the higher end of normal. For an excellent quality b*tch 3-4 litters sounds about right. It gives you the ability to try pairing her with different studs to see what gives you the best of the best quality, and potentially gives you room to repeat that breeding.

 

When you are breeding a b*tch the general rule of thumb is to only breed once a year, or only two out of any three heats. Generally breeding on back to back heats (which come roughly every 6 months in most breeds) should be avoided. In general you also don't want to breed until after 2 years of age - both to give appropriate time for the b*tch to mature and also because many of the health tests can't be performed (at least accurately) until around them. In some of the slower maturing (and sadly, shorter lived breeds) you often don't breed until 3 or 4 years of age - in which case you usually end up with a much lower average litter per b*tch.

Edited July 12, 2012 by theAmbitiousHousewife

[lovinmomma]

Definitely breeder A. Not only do they sound like the better breeder, but you want to have a good relationship with your breeder - especially in this type of co-own situation.

 

 

 

Assuming we are talking about a good, ethical breeder... it will vary pending a variety of things (the b*tch's health, mothering ability, breed, temperament, etc). I'd say anywhere from 1 - 6 is normal, with 6 being on the high end of normal.

 

When you are breeding a b*tch the general rule of thumb is to only breed once a year, or only two out of any three heats. Generally breeding on back to back heats (which come roughly every 6 months in most breeds) should be avoided. In general you also don't want to breed until after 2 years of age - both to give appropriate time for the b*tch to mature and also because many of the health tests can't be performed (at least accurately) until around them. In some of the slower maturing (and sadly, shorter lived breeds) you often don't breed until 3 or 4 years of age - in which case you usually end up with a much lower average litter per b*tch.

 

I would also add that the size of the breed plays a big role in determining this as well.

[WistfulRidge]

I would also add that the size of the breed plays a big role in determining this as well.

:iagree:

 

While it is not true 100% of the time I tend to equate slower growing with the larger breeds (my heart breed, the Tibetan Mastiff, and Great Danes both come to mind).

 

Additionally, I imagine that breeds that routinely require c-sections (bulldogs) probably don't have very many litters per b*ch.

[Mimm]

A! :)

[EducationX2]

I agree with everyone that says breeder A. In this type of situation, I would want to be on friendly terms with someone, and not so much a purely business situation.

Also, the geographical distance is great also. Should something come up, those extra 30 miles could make a difference.

[Laura Corin]

I can't help with the breeder dilemma but we have just done a similar programme. Be aware that if the puppy is a girl, you are going to deal with her being in season twice a year for years. That means keeping her 'safe' from other dogs and dealing with discharge. There's also the back and forth to get her bred and then for her to have the puppies. We love our dog, but it was a pain. We are much happier now she is spayed and ours.

 

FWIW, our contract was for three litters or age 5.

 

Laura

[catz]

If you had to pay to board your dog when you went on vacation, you'd rack up $200 in no time flat! I'd go with a on that basis alone!

[Jaz]

A :)

[astrid]

Honestly? Neither. There are so many contingencies that can come up with these sorts of arrangements--which by the way, I've never heard of referred to as "guardian" arrangements. Co-ownership is a more common term. Some of my puppies go to homes with co-ownership agreements but that is at MY request, so they WILL NOT be bred. As soon as they are spayed or neutered I remove my name from the registration.

 

Breeder A: Who is responsible for health testing this *****? Financially, etc. What if she turns out not to be breedable (or does this breeder even consider dogs "unbreedable?" or is everything bred?) If health testing is not a priority for breeding, I wouldn't be involved, and I'd really not think highly of anyone who is involved in breeding dogs without extensive health testing.

 

Who is responsible for prenatal care? Or is that a priority? When does the ***** go to the breeders prior to whelping, or are you expected to whelp and puppy raise? That's a huge responsibility and can be very expensive, not to mention heart-wrenching.

 

Will you have any say in where the puppies are placed? (or is that not a priority? By which I mean, does this breeder sell puppies over the internet?)

 

Breeder B-- yeah--- she's a puppy mill, plain and simple. There is no way that anyone with over 30 breeding dogs could be considered anything else. "High Volume Breeder" is the term, and I am actually filled with ridiculous amounts of rage at the very thought.

 

I'd be very, very careful entering into any sort of agreement with any breeder. IMHO, you're going to be used. Plain and simple. People who breed like this are most concerned with the bottom line, and that's the sad truth.

 

Astrid (admittedly cranky after being emailed several times this week by a notorious person known to be working for a puppy millers trying to get a pup out of me and about twenty other breeders I know. When I smelled a rat and refused (we breeders talk and share our concerns) they got all verbally abusive and really ticked me off.)

[SonshineLearner]

...I've never heard of referred to as "guardian" arrangements. Co-ownership is a more common term. Some of my puppies go to homes with co-ownership agreements but that is at MY request, so they WILL NOT be bred. As soon as they are spayed or neutered I remove my name from the registration.

 

I have heard the term "guardian" more than once over here. Maybe it's a West Coast term?

 

I looked into doing the guardian arrangement. I was also wanting a Labradoodle. I found a place in the same town, and the people were nice enough. The also had dogs returned that you could adopt.

 

Hmmm... the reasons I didn't do it. The fee if they say... got hit by a car was around $2500? They wanted multiple litters of puppies as long as they could be bred. ( I think ours was 3 litters?) They gave the choice of having the mom and pups stay with you... or having the mom live at their house during that time.

 

The puppies were quite expensive... Over $2000. I looked at hip problems...etc... and decided that purposely breeding two large dogs may not be smart.

 

I then started looking at Wheaten Terriers. Same great "low shed" (called "no shed") I could purchase from a person who showed their dogs and had a very low number of litters. They also had you write part of the cost straight to the company that tests Wheatens... The finished price was $1800 or less.

 

BTW, labradoodles don't shed if they take after the poodle side... just a bit of info I found out. I actually ended up thinking the Aussiedoodles were quite cute!!

[datgh]

I don't think I could do a guardian relationship. You get so attached to your pet but because of the agreement you have to do what the breeder wants and not what you may feel is best for the dog that you love. We have friends who have this kind of arrangement. While they where excited their dog was going to have puppies, the dog had to stay with the breeder from when the pups where born until they where weened. The kids missed the dog so much not to mention how the dog must have felt being bounced back and forth. (I can tell the fear in my dogs eyes when she is afraid she is going to be left somewhere strange.) When their dog finally came back to the family, she had lost a lot of weight and hadn't been well taken care of in their opinion. Apparently the breeders spouse needed surgery so she didn't have much time to care for the dogs as she should have been. They are not looking forward to round two. The whole process also involved a lot of running around on the families part.

 

I know I wouldn't want someone else dictating the care of my dog. As another person posted, it can get to be all about the bottom line. Just my two cents as a dog lover.

[astrid]

It's really only a deal for the "breeder." What if the breeder insists you feed the dog a food that is priced beyond your budget? What if the vet the breeder insists you use is far away/expensive/not one you feel comfortable with? SO may things to consider.

 

astrid

[mommaduck]

see below.

Edited July 13, 2012 by mommaduck

[mommaduck]

Honestly? Neither. There are so many contingencies that can come up with these sorts of arrangements--which by the way, I've never heard of referred to as "guardian" arrangements. Co-ownership is a more common term. Some of my puppies go to homes with co-ownership agreements but that is at MY request, so they WILL NOT be bred. As soon as they are spayed or neutered I remove my name from the registration.

 

Breeder A: Who is responsible for health testing this *****? Financially, etc. What if she turns out not to be breedable (or does this breeder even consider dogs "unbreedable?" or is everything bred?) If health testing is not a priority for breeding, I wouldn't be involved, and I'd really not think highly of anyone who is involved in breeding dogs without extensive health testing.

 

Who is responsible for prenatal care? Or is that a priority? When does the ***** go to the breeders prior to whelping, or are you expected to whelp and puppy raise? That's a huge responsibility and can be very expensive, not to mention heart-wrenching.

 

Will you have any say in where the puppies are placed? (or is that not a priority? By which I mean, does this breeder sell puppies over the internet?)

 

Breeder B-- yeah--- she's a puppy mill, plain and simple. There is no way that anyone with over 30 breeding dogs could be considered anything else. "High Volume Breeder" is the term, and I am actually filled with ridiculous amounts of rage at the very thought.

 

I'd be very, very careful entering into any sort of agreement with any breeder. IMHO, you're going to be used. Plain and simple. People who breed like this are most concerned with the bottom line, and that's the sad truth.

 

Astrid (admittedly cranky after being emailed several times this week by a notorious person known to be working for a puppy millers trying to get a pup out of me and about twenty other breeders I know. When I smelled a rat and refused (we breeders talk and share our concerns) they got all verbally abusive and really ticked me off.)

Read this after I responded. You're right. The breeders I know don't farm out their dogs to ANYONE...not. at. all. They are very picky about breeding them and their care. This almost sounds like a way around appearing as a "puppy mill" (and believe me, Lancaster County has WAAAAAYY too many of them).

[kesmom]

I don't know anything about breeding, but I'm posting to insist on a puppy picture. :D

[*Jen*]

Honestly? Neither. There are so many contingencies that can come up with these sorts of arrangements--which by the way, I've never heard of referred to as "guardian" arrangements. Co-ownership is a more common term. Some of my puppies go to homes with co-ownership agreements but that is at MY request, so they WILL NOT be bred. As soon as they are spayed or neutered I remove my name from the registration.

 

Breeder A: Who is responsible for health testing this *****? Financially, etc. What if she turns out not to be breedable (or does this breeder even consider dogs "unbreedable?" or is everything bred?) If health testing is not a priority for breeding, I wouldn't be involved, and I'd really not think highly of anyone who is involved in breeding dogs without extensive health testing.

 

Who is responsible for prenatal care? Or is that a priority? When does the ***** go to the breeders prior to whelping, or are you expected to whelp and puppy raise? That's a huge responsibility and can be very expensive, not to mention heart-wrenching.

 

Will you have any say in where the puppies are placed? (or is that not a priority? By which I mean, does this breeder sell puppies over the internet?)

 

Breeder B-- yeah--- she's a puppy mill, plain and simple. There is no way that anyone with over 30 breeding dogs could be considered anything else. "High Volume Breeder" is the term, and I am actually filled with ridiculous amounts of rage at the very thought.

 

I'd be very, very careful entering into any sort of agreement with any breeder. IMHO, you're going to be used. Plain and simple. People who breed like this are most concerned with the bottom line, and that's the sad truth.

 

Astrid (admittedly cranky after being emailed several times this week by a notorious person known to be working for a puppy millers trying to get a pup out of me and about twenty other breeders I know. When I smelled a rat and refused (we breeders talk and share our concerns) they got all verbally abusive and really ticked me off.)

 

 

 

:iagree: Thank you for posting this! I have been trying to think of how to say exactly what you did but it never came out as nice as your post.

 

My family has been involved in raising and showing dogs for almost 20 years. In that time there has only been 2 litters that my mom bred (and her first litter produced two top breed winning dogs!) I think most of these "breeders" are just upscale puppymills that farm out the dogs so they aren't classified as puppymills because they are not listed as the breeders of the resulting litters.

[redsnapper]

Wow, 4 litters? How many litters do breeding dogs usually have?

 

Both breeders have the female checked by a vet and watch them very closely for how they bounce back after a litter. If they are healthy, they'll breed again next heat. The vets say that's a natural thing for dogs so go ahead as long as the dog can handle it. If not, wait a heat in between. Both ladies were very concerned about the females health as the dog is an investment and a living creature. I felt safe that they were well looking after their dogs.

[Laura Corin]

Hmmm... the reasons I didn't do it. The fee if they say... got hit by a car was around $2500? They wanted multiple litters of puppies as long as they could be bred. ( I think ours was 3 litters?) They gave the choice of having the mom and pups stay with you... or having the mom live at their house during that time.

 

 

It was in our contract that we were not liable if the dog was killed or injured in our care. She went to the breeder to be bred, then back to us while pregnant, then back to the breeder to have the pups and stay until they were weaned. All vet costs connected to breeding were the breeder's responsibility, as was the cost of spaying at the end of the contract. We also got paid for looking after the dog, but the same breeder doesn't pay any more.

 

Laura

[redsnapper]

Yes, thanks Laura...

 

Ladies, these are not puppy mills by my definition at all. Isn't a puppy mill a place with tons of animals crammed in, breeding on trip of breeding to push out as many money making puppies as possible, without regard to genetically and inferring.

 

These breeders pay very close attention to avoid inbreeding. The guardian homes allow the dogs to live in family homes and not be kennel dogs. This allows the breeder to safely use multiple dogs for breeding while allowing the dogs a happy life with a family.

 

And the breeder pays for all vet costs associated with breeding and testing etc. We only pay the usual vet stuff like shots, check ups, flea and tick, etc. Just like we would for any puppy.

[astrid]

Read this after I responded. You're right. The breeders I know don't farm out their dogs to ANYONE...not. at. all. They are very picky about breeding them and their care. This almost sounds like a way around appearing as a "puppy mill" (and believe me, Lancaster County has WAAAAAYY too many of them).

 

Yes. The USDA is cracking down on "high volume breeders" and this is a way they are getting around the inspections. These two are millers, and that's the plain ugly truth. I don't care how you slice it, there's no way someone with thirty breeding females could be considered anything BUT high-volumne.

 

With so many dogs in shelters, (including labradoodles!) I just don't understand why anyone would want to be a party to this.

 

astrid

[fairfarmhand]

Breeder A. Breeder B has too many dogs. I don't like the smell of that.

:iagree:

[astrid]

Yes, thanks Laura...

 

Ladies, these are not puppy mills by my definition at all. Isn't a puppy mill a place with tons of animals crammed in, breeding on trip of breeding to push out as many money making puppies as possible, without regard to genetically and inferring.

 

These breeders pay very close attention to avoid inbreeding. The guardian homes allow the dogs to live in family homes and not be kennel dogs. This allows the breeder to safely use multiple dogs for breeding while allowing the dogs a happy life with a family.

 

And the breeder pays for all vet costs associated with breeding and testing etc. We only pay the usual vet stuff like shots, check ups, flea and tick, etc. Just like we would for any puppy.

 

Puppy millers or "high volume breeders" can take many forms. In a previous post, I mentioned that the USDA is trying to track them, and farming out breeding stock to live in other locations is a way around this. Just the fact that they breed the ***** every heat cycle is a HUGE HUGE HUGE red flag to me. It should NOT be done. Gestating, whelping and rearing a litter is a HUGE physical toll on a *****. Keeping dogs continually pregnant, nursing or rebuilding their strength is not healthy.

 

Do they sell puppies over the internet? Do they meet and do home visits with every puppy buyer? Is each breeding dog registered in the OFA database, with health testing done on each one? ARe the puppies raised in her home, socialized individually, evaluated regularly for personality and temperament and exposed to a wide variety of engaging stimuli such as variable surfaces, other animals, people of all ages, etc?

 

 

Regarding the bolded above-- I"m assuming you mean, "breeding on top of breeding." That IS breeding every heat cycle! You said your post below that she plans to do that. Responsible breeders do not! She IS pushing out as many puppies as possible to make a buck, and arrangements like this enable her to continue. What are her costs? You provide the food and pay the regular vet bills, and do all the training, etc. Her goal is to maximize profit, pure and simple.

 

Having 30 breeding *****es, I don't care WHERE they're located, is a miller.

 

astrid

Edited July 13, 2012 by astrid

[bzymom]

Puppy millers or "high volume breeders" can take many forms. In a previous post, I mentioned that the USDA is trying to track them, and farming out breeding stock to live in other locations is a way around this. Just the fact that they breed the ***** every heat cycle is a HUGE HUGE HUGE red flag to me. It should NOT be done. Gestating, whelping and rearing a litter is a HUGE physical toll on a *****. Keeping dogs continually pregnant, nursing or rebuilding their strength is not healthy.

 

Do they sell puppies over the internet? Do they meet and do home visits with every puppy buyer? Is each breeding dog registered in the OFA database, with health testing done on each one? ARe the puppies raised in her home, socialized individually, evaluated regularly for personality and temperament and exposed to a wide variety of engaging stimuli such as variable surfaces, other animals, people of all ages, etc?

 

 

Regarding the bolded above-- I"m assuming you mean, "breeding on top of breeding." That IS breeding every heat cycle! You said your post below that she plans to do that. Responsible breeders do not! She IS pushing out as many puppies as possible to make a buck, and arrangements like this enable her to continue. What are her costs? You provide the food and pay the regular vet bills, and do all the training, etc. Her goal is to maximize profit, pure and simple.

 

Having 30 breeding *****es, I don't care WHERE they're located, is a miller.

 

astrid

:iagree:

 

I passed by a labradoodle breeder because she had 4 litters from different mamas in the course of a year. 30?? She can dress it up any way she wants, it is a mill. Just because she doesn't have stacks of puppies in cages in her field doesn't change the fact that you cannot take the kind of care and attention required to properly breed with that many dogs. Caring breeders give so much time and energy to their dogs, and know the limits of reasonable breeding.

[astrid]

:iagree:

 

I passed by a labradoodle breeder because she had 4 litters from different mamas in the course of a year. 30?? She can dress it up any way she wants, it is a mill. Just because she doesn't have stacks of puppies in cages in her field doesn't change the fact that you cannot take the kind of care and attention required to properly breed with that many dogs. Caring breeders give so much time and energy to their dogs, and know the limits of reasonable breeding.

 

YES. Thank you.

 

astrid (I guess I'll never learn that the WTM board automatically changes the word b1tch to *****. It's such a part of our everyday vocabulary that I don't think twice about it!)

[SonshineLearner]

I will say that though I decided it wasn't what I wanted to support, it's not the same as a puppy store to me... or the person who hoses off the dogs in their kennels.

The person I know who agreed to their dog being a "guardian" dog loved it immensely.... stayed right in their home like a beloved pet... So that part, the caring of the animal is different.

I would also hope (check into) how they keep up with the genetics issue. I would actually ask for a chat with the vet, at least... or at least the receptionist.

[astrid]

I will say that though I decided it wasn't what I wanted to support, it's not the same as a puppy store to me... or the person who hoses off the dogs in their kennels.

The person I know who agreed to their dog being a "guardian" dog loved it immensely.... stayed right in their home like a beloved pet... So that part, the caring of the animal is different.

I would also hope (check into) how they keep up with the genetics issue. I would actually ask for a chat with the vet, at least... or at least the receptionist.

 

Puppy stores get their stock from puppy millers and giant brokers such as the Hunte Corporation. I"m not going to link it because I dont' want to increase traffic to their site. If you look it up, don't be fooled by the slick website and convincing copy. They are a broker and they get their stock from, in large part, from those people who hose of their cages (if the poor animals are lucky!) in the backyard. Where do the millers get their dogs? One place is from auctions. Yes, like cattle auctions, but with dogs. Another place is by hiring people to call breeders who advertise and sell over the internet and buy puppies via paypal. These middlemen are getting savvy-- just last week I was contacted by someone who found my email address on our breed club's website (i'm the Chair of the Show Committee) and inquired about puppies for sale. The email raised my suspicions so I got on our club's breeder email list and asked around. Sure enough, several other breeder friends of mine who DO have kennel websites received variations of the same email, a couple of them with names changed. We saw sanitized versions evolve-- for instance, the first couple of inquiries stated the dog would be kept outside. The breeders must have responded that they wouldn't sell them a pup because our dogs are not outside dogs. The middlemen apparently wised up because in later versions of their email, that statement was removed.

 

Placing a puppy in a home should take much thought, consideration, dialogue, investigation, and a healthy dose of faith. Shipping a puppy via air freight to anyone with a paypal account or a valid credit card, often with little more than a cursory email conversation is not responsible. I don't care how you slice it. Owning more breeding dogs than you can care for in your house, and farming them out to live with others is not responsible.

 

I will go so far as to say when our very own Ree, the now famous Pioneer Woman, posted on her website a couple of years or so ago that she was shopping late at night and bought a Basset Hound puppy online with just a swipe of her credit card, then forgot she bought it until he was shipped to her door I was incredibly disgusted and disappointed in her. She bought from a puppy mill, and to have "forgotten" that you purchased a living creature late one night online is ridiculous.

 

astrid (as you can see, this is topic about which I'm passionate!)

[astrid]

:iagree: Thank you for posting this! I have been trying to think of how to say exactly what you did but it never came out as nice as your post.

 

My family has been involved in raising and showing dogs for almost 20 years. In that time there has only been 2 litters that my mom bred (and her first litter produced two top breed winning dogs!) I think most of these "breeders" are just upscale puppymills that farm out the dogs so they aren't classified as puppymills because they are not listed as the breeders of the resulting litters.

 

YES. They're looking to maximize profits by not having to provide any care for their breeding stock. Bottom line drives it all. Sad.

 

astrid

[Laura Corin]

Yes. The USDA is cracking down on "high volume breeders" and this is a way they are getting around the inspections.

 

The breeder who owned our dog wants to keep all her dogs in the house as family pets. As the house is not big enough for the dogs she now breeds, she puts the extras out into families. This allows the dogs to have a family life that will continue after they finish breeding. FWIW, she has a total of fourteen dogs, male and female, including those out with other families.

 

Laura

Edited July 13, 2012 by Laura Corin

[Scuff]

The breeder who owned our dog wants to keep all her dogs in the house as family pets. As the house is not big enough for the dogs she now breeds, she puts the extras out into families. This allows the dogs to have a family life that will continue after they finish breeding. FWIW, she has a total of fourteen dogs, male and female, including those out with other families.

 

Laura

 

Yeah, our breeder was the same. The dogs she did have spent a day a weeek in the house.

[kroe1]

Sounds like you are becoming part of the puppy mill to me. I would not go with any breeder that required someone to come up with 4 litters. That is not a respectable breeder. Also labradoodle is nothing more than a mixed breed. Breeding them should be no one's priority.

:)

[redsnapper]

Astrid, et al,

 

Thank you for you posts. I appreciate your watching out for innocent animals against people who would abuse/neglect them. You have made me research more on what a puppy mill actually is and to consider these breeders against that definition. It makes me a wiser "shopper"... =). Otherwise I might be too naive and not look into the practices of a breeder. So again, thank you for reminding us. =)

 

That being said, let's leave the puppy mill debate for another forum please. It's not going to be solved right here, and I'd rather that be on a separate thread so that only those interested in discussing the topic need to be involved. Sound good?

*************************

To everyone who responded,

 

After reading all these responses, and after discussing with my dh, we agree that Breeder B has too big of an operation for us to be comfortable with. Along side all the other pros to Brdr A, we are choosing that route. She only has a few breeding dogs, we've seen her home where she does everything, met the dogs in her home, seen how all her operation is "out in the open" that anyone can see (that she does nothing in secret shows trustworthiness and that she has nothing to hide), we've discussed the contract, etc. and we feel very comfortable that she is doing everything possible to ensure the health, happiness and well being of her dogs.

 

I'll try to remember about posting a picture for those interested next month when we get her. =)

-Melissa

[astrid]

The breeder who owned our dog wants to keep all her dogs in the house as family pets. As the house is not big enough for the dogs she now breeds, she puts the extras out into families. This allows the dogs to have a family life that will continue after they finish breeding. FWIW, she has a total of fourteen dogs, male and female, including those out with other families.

 

Laura

 

 

.

Edited July 13, 2012 by astrid

[ktgrok]

Yes. The USDA is cracking down on "high volume breeders" and this is a way they are getting around the inspections. These two are millers, and that's the plain ugly truth. I don't care how you slice it, there's no way someone with thirty breeding females could be considered anything BUT high-volumne.

 

With so many dogs in shelters, (including labradoodles!) I just don't understand why anyone would want to be a party to this.

 

astrid

 

Agreed! There is more to it than just avoiding "inbreeding". There is no way that THAT many dogs end up being of breeding quality. It just doesn't work that way.

[In the Rain]

When we looked in to Labradoodles years ago, I saw guardian programs. I never equated it with puppy mills, although I probably didn't see any breeders with 30 dogs.

 

Did you get a puppy? Do you have cute puppy pics?

[redsnapper]

We will get our puppy in 13 days. We went with the closer breeder who has a MUCH smaller program. Maybe 3 active breeding females. She swapped breeding dogs with another breeder to bring in new bloodlines. That's where our pup is coming from. She is staying an extra 3 weeks for in-home puppy training, paid for by our breeder, before she comes to us. Our breeder also is paying for a puppy training class for us with the pup when she has all her shots.

 

We feel really good about the place where she's coming from. We see lots of pictures, posed and candids. Videos of the litter on adventures, and of trainings, in confined rooms and outside in the open. You get a good sense for the location, how clean and well kept it is, how clean inside their house is, you get to see that the pups are happy, healthy, bold, no fear or neglected low confidence at all! We saw their health check at 8wks with their local vet, too. The lady doing the puppy training is amazing! I wish she could train me how to do so well... :-).

 

FYI, we really did research the dogs at our local shelters and for years. There was almost never an allergy friendly dog and when there was the dog could not be with small children or cats. We even met purebreds from allergy friendly breeds and didn't care for them. Basically we're lab and retriever people. But too many allergies in our family. So this is the route we chose, doing our best to avoid unsavory characters and huge operations. And we continue to support our local shelter, including raising money for their walk-a-thon in September as a family. We got our guinea pigs from there, too. :-)