The Business of Being Born... are they for real?

[Xuzi]

 

The whole thing is a mess. OB residents come out of residency having never once seen a natural birth. Same for nursing students coming out of nursing school. When I had a med-free hospital birth 7 yrs ago, I had a seasoned nurse who'd probably been in the business 20-25 yrs and she said, "I haven't done a birth like that in years!".

 

I had a c/s followed by 2 unmedicated VBACs, and I heard the same thing from the nurses who attended me during my two natural births, except that one of them, in her 40's, went so far as to say she'd *never* seen an unmedicated birth before. :001_huh:

[Coffeetime]

That's one of the myriad of excuses our local hospital (which does have a NICU) gives for it's VBAC bans. They don't have an in-house anesthesiologist who is dedicated to JUST the OB floor.

 

Perhaps I'm reading you wrong, forgive me if I am, but I wouldn't call that an excuse, more like a completely intelligent and valid REASON for not hosting VBACs.

 

But, then again, less than two weeks ago I was watching my sister in law have a severe uterine rupture while attempting a VBAC. Had her doctor and an anesthesiologist not been on the floor we would have lost both her and the baby. The baby was completely expelled from her uterus into her abdominal cavity. As it was, baby had to be resuscitated at birth and was flown to a level III NICU. (She's actually coming home tomorrow- a miracle considering she was without oxygen for nearly 15 minutes.) So, yeah. I guess the memory of that is a little fresh in my mind as I read all of these responses....

[ktgrok]

Perhaps I'm reading you wrong, forgive me if I am, but I wouldn't call that an excuse, more like a completely intelligent and valid REASON for not hosting VBACs.

 

But, then again, less than two weeks ago I was watching my sister in law have a severe uterine rupture while attempting a VBAC. Had her doctor and an anesthesiologist not been on the floor we would have lost both her and the baby. The baby was completely expelled from her uterus into her abdominal cavity. As it was, baby had to be resuscitated at birth and was flown to a level III NICU. (She's actually coming home tomorrow- a miracle considering she was without oxygen for nearly 15 minutes.) So, yeah. I guess the memory of that is a little fresh in my mind as I read all of these responses....

 

The issue is that if they can't handle an emergency c-section for a rupture, that also means they can't handle an emergency c-section for cord prolapse, placental abruption, etc etc....which can happen in any mom. So either they CAN do emergency c sections for moms or they can't....why the section is needed, or if the woman had a previous surgery, really has nothing to do with it.

 

Hugs to your sister in law, that had to be so scary for everyone. I have a friend that ruptured, but it wasn't an emergency, and there were no adverse outcomes, thankfully. I am curious, any insight into why she ruptured so badly, (pitocin or other meds) or just bad luck?

[mykdsmomy]

Perhaps I'm reading you wrong, forgive me if I am, but I wouldn't call that an excuse, more like a completely intelligent and valid REASON for not hosting VBACs.

 

But, then again, less than two weeks ago I was watching my sister in law have a severe uterine rupture while attempting a VBAC. Had her doctor and an anesthesiologist not been on the floor we would have lost both her and the baby. The baby was completely expelled from her uterus into her abdominal cavity. As it was, baby had to be resuscitated at birth and was flown to a level III NICU. (She's actually coming home tomorrow- a miracle considering she was without oxygen for nearly 15 minutes.) So, yeah. I guess the memory of that is a little fresh in my mind as I read all of these responses....

 

Oh my goodness, I'm so glad your sil and baby are ok!!!!!! How very scary for all of you :(

[JoLuRu]

mykidsmomy - your SIL is exactly the reason most women in the US choose a hospital birth, in case the worst case scenario is the one that occurs. It's incredibly fortunate that she had the appropriate team available to give her the necessary intervention, and I'm so glad that she and the baby survived and hope they'll both recover well.

[bkpan]

I thank God for choices!

 

My first birth was a pretty horrific hospital birth. My second birth was a pretty horrific birth center birth, though I did enjoy the pregnancy more. Then a last-minute, necessary c-section with my breech twins - and it was the easiest recovery I had yet.

 

My fourth birth was my favorite. Birth center, water birth and it was really lovely. My fifth birth was a scheduled c-section because I was 43yo and scared.

 

I am so thankful for all of the choices I had. That is the most important. I am thankful for the hospitals, first-rate prenatal care for this "old" mama, and for the precious (and very painful!) natural births I had.

 

There really is no single BEST way to give birth. A healthy mom and baby is what matters. Just as there is not a single BEST way to educate all children.

 

Kim

[Momof3littles]

Perhaps I'm reading you wrong, forgive me if I am, but I wouldn't call that an excuse, more like a completely intelligent and valid REASON for not hosting VBACs.

 

But, then again, less than two weeks ago I was watching my sister in law have a severe uterine rupture while attempting a VBAC. Had her doctor and an anesthesiologist not been on the floor we would have lost both her and the baby. The baby was completely expelled from her uterus into her abdominal cavity. As it was, baby had to be resuscitated at birth and was flown to a level III NICU. (She's actually coming home tomorrow- a miracle considering she was without oxygen for nearly 15 minutes.) So, yeah. I guess the memory of that is a little fresh in my mind as I read all of these responses....

Well, the NIH's report on vbac in the US suggests that 24/7 anesthesiology availability should not be an obstacle to vbac. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean there will not be women who would have benefited from that availability. However, there are also women and babies who have complications from being forced into a repeat c/s with no option to vbac. There are tragedies on both sides, and it is very scary and real when it is someone you know.

[ocelotmom]

The whole thing is a mess. OB residents come out of residency having never once seen a natural birth. Same for nursing students coming out of nursing school.

The OB residency bothers me much more, as a residency program lasts years. L&D rotation in nursing school tends to be very short - a few weeks at most unless you get a preceptorship in L&D, and you don't get a chance to see much of anything. I saw a whole two births during school (and yes, both were epidural).

[misidawnrn]

I'm afraid to ask. How quickly do they give the epidurals now? I haven't had a baby in over a decade so I have no idea, but always remember that my midwife said that by the time you needed it, you were usually past all the really hard stuff in a normal, vaginal delivery.

 

We give epidurals as soon as a patient wants one. Usually they get there at 6am and pit started, water broke at 7am, and by 10am they are getting their epidural. Usually, especially 1st time moms, they are only 2cm by then. Then at 5PM...yep, we bring them back for a C/S.

 

I am not anti C/S by any means. They save lives when they are needed but they also increase the risk of a placenta adhering to that spot, placenta acreata or percreata which is a life threatening condition, uterine rupture with subsequent pregnancies, again, life threatening, etc.

[ktgrok]

Paid by whom, the ACOG?

lol, no, advertisers, etc. She has multiple blogs, or did last I checked. The more controversy she causes the more readers/money.

 

 

My understanding is that the recently released Colorado numbers are not good, and that Johnson and Daviss has some sketchiness built into the comparison groups, that recent research on the Netherlands is not pro-home birth, etc.

 

I was just searching pubmed recently and found several in the Netherlands...all that I looked at showed excellent outcomes for homebirth.

 

 

It really fell into my lap. My OB is excellent. He knew that I wasn't done having children and had wanted a VBAC, and right after #2 was born (I was disappointed) he let me know that he'd support me doing a VBA2C provided everything looked clear. Then he drove in to the hospital off shift to handle the birth. He handles a lot of large families though, so he doesnt assume that the third baby is your last one, so why worry. That said, I wouldn't be comfortable just showing up and refusing surgery.

 

Glad to hear there are still doctors like that. So much is regional.

[BinahYeteirah]

My understanding is that the recently released Colorado numbers are not good, and that Johnson and Daviss has some sketchiness built into the comparison groups, that recent research on the Netherlands is not pro-home birth, etc.

 

Where are you getting this information? Everything I found during a quick Google search regarding the latest Dutch home birth numbers indicate that home birth is safe:

 

http://www.bjog.org/details/news/182410/New_figures_from_the_Netherlands_on_the_safety_of_home_births_.html

 

The only negative interpretations I could find of this study in my quick and superficial search all came from Amy Tuteur's blog.

 

Again, I don't have time to do lots of research on this, but all the negative information I could find about the Colorado numbers was also found at Amy Tuteur's blog.

 

Hmmm...

 

Edited to say that it looks like ktgrok beat me to these observations.

Edited July 11, 2012 by BinahYeteirah

[Dealea86]

It speeds up delivery of the placenta....it is normal practice to inject the woman in the thigh with pitocin as soon as the baby is out, IF she somehow managed to avoid pit during labor....although that is pretty rare.

 

If I'm not mistaken, it's also given to stop hemorrhaging. My sister's crunchy homebirth midwives have all carried pitocin and use it (and she knows this because she's an ideal candidate for pitocin - she bleeds a LOT after labor).

 

I can't remember if I was given pit or not. If I was it was through the IV (I was GBS positive, had to have abx), not a shot.

 

My birth was a beautiful, nearly perfect hospital birth. I was with a CNM practice with some of the best midwives in the state, had a very experienced doula, and at a hospital with a 20% c/s rate (not ideal, but way better than most in the country). The only thing that could have made my birth better was if I hadn't had to get out of the birth pool when my water broke. It was hospital policy that if there was meconium in the fluid, you couldn't have a water birth. :tongue_smilie:

 

Oh, and I tore pretty badly. That was awful. But it was mostly my fault, as DD went from like +3 station to fully born in one push. ;)

[VeganCupcake]

I am an L&D nurse. When someone walks in with a "birthplan" they are snickered at by the nurses...I am not kidding!

 

My SIL is a nurse and worked on the mother/baby floor of a local hospital for a while. She said when they switched shifts and discussed patients, they referred to women who had birthed unmedicated as "twig and berry" women and snickered at them.

 

On the other hand, there is a bit of hope. I have a neighbor who teaches nursing at a local university and she has invited me to her women's health issues class for the last three semesters now to talk about my home births and why I chose them.

[NASDAQ]

So any article quoting her is discredited because she makes money off of blogging? That seems strange to me, but ymmv.

 

Dutch homebirth, etc:

 

http://www.bmj.com/content/341/bmj.c5639.full

 

"Infants of pregnant women at low risk whose labour started in primary care under the supervision of a midwife in the Netherlands had a higher risk of delivery related perinatal death and the same risk of admission to the NICU compared with infants of pregnant women at high risk whose labour started in secondary care under the supervision of an obstetrician."

 

Independent midwives:

 

http://www.bmj.com/content/338/bmj.b2060

 

"Healthcare policy tries to direct patient choice towards clinically appropriate and practicable options; nevertheless, pregnant women are free to make decisions about birth preferences, including place of delivery and staff in attendance. While clinical outcomes across a range of variables were significantly better for women accessing an independent midwife, the significantly higher perinatal mortality rates for high risk cases in this group indicate an urgent need for a review of these cases. The significantly higher prematurity and admission rates to intensive care in the NHS cohort also indicate an urgent need for review."

 

The Colorado part I read about in the Daily Beast.

[ktgrok]

If I'm not mistaken, it's also given to stop hemorrhaging. My sister's crunchy homebirth midwives have all carried pitocin and use it (and she knows this because she's an ideal candidate for pitocin - she bleeds a LOT after labor).

 

)

 

Yes, it can be life saving when used for that purpose. But given that very few women actually hemmorage it is silly to give it to EVERY woman and, if nothing else, makes the after birth pains way worse. My homebirth midwife certainly carries it, and uses it if mom is bleeding more than usual or there is a reason to think she will. But she doesn't give it to EVERY woman.

[Sara in AZ]

Yes, it can be life saving when used for that purpose. But given that very few women actually hemmorage it is silly to give it to EVERY woman and, if nothing else, makes the after birth pains way worse. My homebirth midwife certainly carries it, and uses it if mom is bleeding more than usual or there is a reason to think she will. But she doesn't give it to EVERY woman.

 

It saved me from my scary bleeding after my first birth.

[ktgrok]

So any article quoting her is discredited because she makes money off of blogging? That seems strange to me, but ymmv.

Not because she makes money off of blogging. Because she makes money off of blogging about homebirth...her entire focus is on attacking homebirth. That is what she does.

Dutch homebirth, etc:

 

http://www.bmj.com/content/341/bmj.c5639.full

 

"Infants of pregnant women at low risk whose labour started in primary care under the supervision of a midwife in the Netherlands had a higher risk of delivery related perinatal death and the same risk of admission to the NICU compared with infants of pregnant women at high risk whose labour started in secondary care under the supervision of an obstetrician."

 

I'll have to read it, but at first glance it only looks at one hospital...given that outcomes of home birth transfers are HIGHLY dependent on how those transfers are handled (how well the midwife and the doctor collaborate) it is hard to draw conclusions from a study that only looks at one hospital. I'll read more though. This study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22015871) is MUCH larger, more than 10 times larger, looks at the country as a whole, and finds that, "Intrapartum and neonatal death at 0-7 days was observed in 0.15% of planned home compared with 0.18% in planned hospital births (crude relative risk 0.80, 95% confidence interval [CI] 0.71-0.91)". It goes on to say that homebirth is safe, but certain subgroups may be at higher risk of complication. Well yeah..screening is really really important. Intrapartum and neonatal death at 0-7 days was observed in 0.15% of planned home compared with 0.18% in planned hospital births (crude relative risk 0.80, 95% confidence interval [CI] 0.71-0.91)

 

Independent midwives:

 

http://www.bmj.com/content/338/bmj.b2060

 

"Healthcare policy tries to direct patient choice towards clinically appropriate and practicable options; nevertheless, pregnant women are free to make decisions about birth preferences, including place of delivery and staff in attendance. While clinical outcomes across a range of variables were significantly better for women accessing an independent midwife, the significantly higher perinatal mortality rates for high risk cases in this group indicate an urgent need for a review of these cases. The significantly higher prematurity and admission rates to intensive care in the NHS cohort also indicate an urgent need for review."

 

Well yes, high risk women do better in the hospital. Duh. Earlier in that study it says that once you control for risk, and just compare low risk to low risk there is no statistical difference between the independent midwife group and the NHS group. "Exclusion of “high risk” cases from both cohorts showed a non-significant difference (0.5% (5) v 0.3% (18); 2.73, 0.87 to 8.55); the “low risk” IMA perinatal mortality rate is comparable with other studies of low risk births."

 

The Colorado part I read about in the Daily Beast.

 

I have no idea how things are handled in Colorado..i don't even know what kind of midwives they have there. It is really sad that there isn't a national standard for this.

Edited July 11, 2012 by ktgrok

[thefragile7393]

I don't think all moms who have had a c-section would agree. The movie is awesome and amazing because it mimics EXACTLY what I saw when I worked at one of the local hospitals here. There are very very very few OB's in this city I would trust due to what I saw. No, it isn't always "well you and baby are ok so it should be ok." It isn't always like that. Not in the least. If you can't fathom what that feels like, then it's best to keep your opinions to yourself. If you can't imagine what that feels like, consider yourself lucky.

[PeacefulChaos]

Edited my original post to include my reply.

[BinahYeteirah]

Dutch homebirth, etc:

 

http://www.bmj.com/content/341/bmj.c5639.full

 

"Infants of pregnant women at low risk whose labour started in primary care under the supervision of a midwife in the Netherlands had a higher risk of delivery related perinatal death and the same risk of admission to the NICU compared with infants of pregnant women at high risk whose labour started in secondary care under the supervision of an obstetrician."

 

This study does not directly compare home birth with hospital birth. It compares women in labor in "primary care" (low-risk women supervised by midwives) and women in labor in "secondary care" (high-risk women supervised by obstetricians). Among the "primary care" group of women, only 22% of them gave birth at home, iirc; the majority of even the "primary care" group had planned hospital births. The study draws the conclusion that there is a problem with the way risk is handled in the Dutch system (by dividing women into these two groups), but does not make any specific recommendations or observations regarding home birth.

 

Independent midwives:

 

http://www.bmj.com/content/338/bmj.b2060

 

"Healthcare policy tries to direct patient choice towards clinically appropriate and practicable options; nevertheless, pregnant women are free to make decisions about birth preferences, including place of delivery and staff in attendance. While clinical outcomes across a range of variables were significantly better for women accessing an independent midwife, the significantly higher perinatal mortality rates for high risk cases in this group indicate an urgent need for a review of these cases. The significantly higher prematurity and admission rates to intensive care in the NHS cohort also indicate an urgent need for review."

 

In this study, the IMA (Independent Midwives Association, comprised of about 87% planned, 66% actual, home births) group appears to be a higher risk group of women than the NHS group of women. The IMA group had higher rates of twins, existing medical conditions, and previous obstetric complications. This seems, to me, to largely explain the higher perinatal mortality rates. Other outcomes were better for the IMA group when compared to the NHS group.

[Galatea]

My SIL is a nurse and worked on the mother/baby floor of a local hospital for a while. She said when they switched shifts and discussed patients, they referred to women who had birthed unmedicated as "twig and berry" women and snickered at them.

 

On the other hand, there is a bit of hope. I have a neighbor who teaches nursing at a local university and she has invited me to her women's health issues class for the last three semesters now to talk about my home births and why I chose them.

 

I think women laugh and say things like this because it probably makes them feel better about their own choices to avoid pain.

 

Personally, I had a pretty awful experience giving birth to my daughter in the hospital. And I went to a hospital with an wonderful maternity wing, it has an excellent reputation, the doctor's office I used is very popular with an excellent reputation. And though they handled many aspects of the birth well, they also handled many things very, very badly.

 

I think most problems are caused by a combination of hospital routines and doctors and nurses who just want to go home. These big hospitals just handle too many women and too many childbirths and it becomes routine to them, where they just want things done instead of trying to help.

[3peasinWa]

I wish hospitals/OB's would look at the statistics of homebirth vs hospital birth. It's astounding. The perinatal death rate is higher in hospital births and homebirths have much lower rates of medical intervention and cesareans. To me, you'd think they could look at those numbers & think "hey, maybe we're doing something wrong here"

[Aelwydd]

OP, I thought the movie was too simplistic, overly sentimental, and very biased.

 

That doesn't mean it did not make valid criticisms of the American obstetrics industry. I could share a lot worse, and more ****ing, information about it than the movie did.

 

The problem is that the BOBB makes the same cardinal mistake obstetrics does--it presumes to know what is best for mom, even more so than she does herself. And in this case, it happens to be preaching the gospel of home birth, with an attending midwife.

 

Well, I can tell you that just like there are iatrogenic-happy *******s working in hospitals, there are sloppy, poorly trained, and idiotic midwives working at home. And there are groups of "natural, child birth" folks that, frankly, piss me off with their sanctimonious B.S.

 

In case it matters, I gave birth in a freestanding birth center, with a CNM and an RN attending, after laboring in the jacuzzi. I did not have have so much as an I.V. or a heplock placed. I had no pain medications administered, although the midwife did spray some lidocaine on my perineum before my son crowned. I'm sure the more hard core would not count my L&D as "natural" or "med-free" because of that.

 

I really don't care. I prefer more scientifically accurate terms like "low-intervention vaginal birth" to "natural" anyway. I have been known to tell at least one relative of mine, who was snottily talking about her natural birth to a cousin who had a c-section, that unless she gave birth in a field or a cave, with no a/c, no additives in her food or drink, no electricity, without a midwife carrying such equipment as an oxygen tank and other supplies--that, actually, her birth was quite technologically dependent.

 

Here's my final opinion: I'm sick of the paternalism of the obstetric system, and of the NCBers who claim what is "natural" and how women were designed for this or that.

 

I don't want an OB telling me I must submit to this procedure or that, because it's procedure, and I don't want a NCB advocate telling me that if I choose to have an elective section, that it's "wrong" or "unsafe" to make such a choice.

 

I believe that all women should have access to information about procedures, statistics, history, etc. of whatever model of birth they are choosing. I believe they should be free from being coerced, manipulated, or pressured because of their decision. I also believe that they have a right to seek the least traumatizing birth experience possible, without fear of judgment and statements of "Oh, the most important thing is a healthy baby," as if her bodily integrity, her pain, her emotions are on par with a brood mare's.

 

Anything less is just more patronizing of women. Put simply, the movie did not respect women, because it did not trust them to give them the full picture. Instead, it demonized the baddies (the obstetrics industry and hospitals) and it white washed home birth midwifery.

[dansamy]

And you would be in the about 10 percent or so of women that NEEDS a c-section. The problem is that in my area 40 percent of women are having c-sections. Do you see how that is a huge problem?

 

I agree that it's a huge problem. I regularly work post-partum, where I care for mothers who had a "primary c/s for failure to progress @ 1745". Translation: Doc has plans and he's not coming back to the hospital to deliver this baby. Cut it out, get paid, go home. Virtually none of these women actually need a c/s. They need to stop trying to induce a baby that's too early or a cervix that's too high/thick/closed. They need to labor and let their bodies take the time they need to actually do the work. It's work I wish I'd had an opportunity to do, but that wasn't the fate that I received. My fate was to be in the 10% of truly, absolutely life-saving for mother and baby c/s. I have no guilt about needing emergency life-saving surgery. I have a ton of mom guilt for not being well enough to carry to term.

[Love_to_Read]

I don't buy into doctors inducing early because 'the baby is too big' (especially since, the last I heard, they can't actually TELL how big a baby is - not to mention how would they know whether or not the woman could deliver it naturally?)

 

Just a quick comment...still reading through the thread...but this...

 

hahahah I lived this. UGH.

 

My OB scheduled an extra u/s in the third tri to "check the baby's size," and wanted to section me because "the baby's too big." I was told that at her rate of growth, I might be looking at an 11lb. baby if we went to full 40wk term, and she might get stuck, and so forth, so "even though I rarely schedule c/s for my patients, we should section this one." It sounded so dire.

 

Yeah. I never checked her c/s rates to back up that statement about me being a rare exception, but I can tell you that my dd was NOT 11lb. She was in fact a pound lighter than any of her siblings (who weren't 11lb, either!), most of whom were born with less than 10min of pushing, and no tearing on any of them. But the OB wanted to section me a few days after 37wks without a trial of labor because dd was too big and I was too small.:glare: No, they cannot accurately tell how big, nor what a woman is capable of, but my OB sure acted confident in her prediction and recommendation. I wasn't asked, either, simply told at my 8 or 9mo appt that it was going to be a necessity for our safety.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Love_to_Read

[Scuff]

My first 3 births were fine. They were all hospitals and not perfect, but with excellent nurses and ok.

 

With the first I had a much wanted epidural. I was exhausted and don't regret getting it. It did result in me pushing for 3 hours and needing to be coached (with dh & a nurse holding my legs) because I couldn't feel anything. I also had weird pain in my back for about a year afterwards. So I was determined not to have another.

 

#2, I did scream. I was fine, laboring along nicely, but at a 9+ for a bit. The nurse suggested rolling onto my side. I immediately felt the need to push. I was not prepared for the intensity of that and started screaming. My room filled with people. The nurse did help me get it under control, though, telling me to put the energy into pushing instead of screaming. She was born in under 3 minutes, 4 hours at the hospital. (And I did have to watch the triage Dr. She did make comments about giving me pitocin)

 

#3 was easy through labor. Contractions 15 minutes apart. We relaxed, played cards, while I occasionally endured a contraction. Got checked and was at a 10, but didn't need to push. I had the on call Dr for this one and he told me to push anyway. I ended up pushing for 10 minutes, but it was also quick and over with once my body gave the urge. SHe could also have been a 3 minutes or less. When I stood up to go to the bathroom, my contractions were right on top of each other. I'm certain that if they'd just let me stand up, I would have felt that urge and been done. Instead, I wasted 7 minutes of energy pushing when my body wasn't ready. Overall ,it was fine, though.

 

My fourth was horrible. Absolutely horrible. I comfort myself by saying at least me and baby are fine. And we are. Medically, everything was fine. But the birth was made horrible by a hospital staff that interfered too much. I had labored 23 hours total. But the contractions never came closer than 10 minutes and everything was quite bearable. At 2:30-3 AM, I decided to go to the hospital to get checked and was at an 8. Obviously, baby was coming soon. I was strep +, so the triage nurses wanted to do the IV. They insisted that it would save the baby from more tests. Well, no. In order for her to not get the strep tests, I had to have the antibiotics in me for over an hour. They pushed the IV so fast that my entire arm HURT, almost worse than the contractions. It ached, felt like lead, and I couldn't move it. I was then taken to my L&D room, where the nurse wouldn't let me even sit because she wanted me on the monitors. I needed to sit or stand to get comfortable from the contractions, but if I adjusted my bed, she'd lower it back down and make me lay. (all other births, I had nurses who would put me on it for a few minutes and then let me do what I wanted) Then the Dr. came. Same OB as before, but this time he must've been in a hurry to go back to bed. He wanted me to push, even though I wasn't fully dilated. He had me pushing, while he stuch his hand up me to manually stretch out my cervix. (while still laying to flat and with an arm that wants to fall off.) It was pure hell. (ever had someone stick their hand up you during transition?) It was all happening so fast and I couldn't get my mind around what was happening. It was just like #3, being told to push when I wasn't ready, but much, much worse. The Dr even made a snotty comment about me not being cooperative and "I guess we'll just have to wait until you decide you're going to do it." (Well, I was trying. I'm a very compliant patient. My body wasn't ready yet, and yes, you're an OB, it's your **** job to wait for me to push!) By the time I got my thoughts together and insisted he stop, I had a moment of peace before the urge did come and she shot out. (dh reached out to catch her because he thought the dr was goign to drop her) He delivered the placenta, congratulated us and was gone in less than a minute. And I was so exhausted from that last 45 minutes of labor that I couldn't even enjoy my baby. I just wanted to lay there and didn't care that they took her away for test/clean up/weighing/ect. This was my baby I longed for for 4 long years. But now that she was here, I didn't even have the strength to want to hold her.

 

So, yeah, it sometimes takes awhile to heal emotionally from birth, even with a health outcome. I trusted my OB and he violated that trust. Not many people do I allow to see me "dpwn there" and not many people do I trust with my care during such a vulnerable time. So, I'm going with a midwife this time. I've come to the conclusion that I can't possibly know all the different ways they can make my life miserable, and during the middle of labor, I shouldn't have to. If I were high risk, or if a problem had been found, I would go to the hospital and hire a doula. But I'm not. So, I look forward to a birth on my own terms without someone ordering me to work against my body. And even though it had been over a year, when I was researching my options this pregnancy, I had serious anxiety at the thought of giving birth at a hospital again. Sometimes a medically healthy outcome isn't good enough.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Scuff

[Veritaserum]

OP, I thought the movie was too simplistic, overly sentimental, and very biased.

 

That doesn't mean it did not make valid criticisms of the American obstetrics industry. I could share a lot worse, and more ****ing, information about it than the movie did.

 

The problem is that the BOBB makes the same cardinal mistake obstetrics does--it presumes to know what is best for mom, even more so than she does herself. And in this case, it happens to be preaching the gospel of home birth, with an attending midwife.

 

Well, I can tell you that just like there are iatrogenic-happy *******s working in hospitals, there are sloppy, poorly trained, and idiotic midwives working at home. And there are groups of "natural, child birth" folks that, frankly, piss me off with their sanctimonious B.S.

 

In case it matters, I gave birth in a freestanding birth center, with a CNM and an RN attending, after laboring in the jacuzzi. I did not have have so much as an I.V. or a heplock placed. I had no pain medications administered, although the midwife did spray some lidocaine on my perineum before my son crowned. I'm sure the more hard core would not count my L&D as "natural" or "med-free" because of that.

 

I really don't care. I prefer more scientifically accurate terms like "low-intervention vaginal birth" to "natural" anyway. I have been known to tell at least one relative of mine, who was snottily talking about her natural birth to a cousin who had a c-section, that unless she gave birth in a field or a cave, with no a/c, no additives in her food or drink, no electricity, without a midwife carrying such equipment as an oxygen tank and other supplies--that, actually, her birth was quite technologically dependent.

 

Here's my final opinion: I'm sick of the paternalism of the obstetric system, and of the NCBers who claim what is "natural" and how women were designed for this or that.

 

I don't want an OB telling me I must submit to this procedure or that, because it's procedure, and I don't want a NCB advocate telling me that if I choose to have an elective section, that it's "wrong" or "unsafe" to make such a choice.

 

I believe that all women should have access to information about procedures, statistics, history, etc. of whatever model of birth they are choosing. I believe they should be free from being coerced, manipulated, or pressured because of their decision. I also believe that they have a right to seek the least traumatizing birth experience possible, without fear of judgment and statements of "Oh, the most important thing is a healthy baby," as if her bodily integrity, her pain, her emotions are on par with a brood mare's.

 

Anything less is just more patronizing of women. Put simply, the movie did not respect women, because it did not trust them to give them the full picture. Instead, it demonized the baddies (the obstetrics industry and hospitals) and it white washed home birth midwifery.

 

Have I told you lately that I love you? :iagree:

 

I am angry with both extremes: the OBs and hospitals that treat every woman and baby as high risk as well as the midwives and natural birth advocates that treat every woman and baby as a "variation of normal" and good candidate for home birth. Gloria Lemay and others like her scare the #%^* out of me.

 

Give women unbiased facts. Support their educated choice.

[ktgrok]

So, yeah, it sometimes takes awhile to heal emotionally from birth, even with a health outcome. I trusted my OB and he violated that trust. Not many people do I allow to see me "dpwn there" and not many people do I trust with my care during such a vulnerable time. So, I'm going with a midwife this time. I've come to the conclusion that I can't possibly know all the different ways they can make my life miserable, and during the middle of labor, I shouldn't have to. If I were high risk, or if a problem had been found, I would go to the hospital and hire a doula. But I'm not. So, I look forward to a birth on my own terms without someone ordering me to work against my body. And even though it had been over a year, when I was researching my options this pregnancy, I had serious anxiety at the thought of giving birth at a hospital again. Sometimes a medically healthy outcome isn't good enough.

 

This is very very true. When people are touching your most private parts with no respect it is VERY violating.

[stripe]

If I'm not mistaken, it's also given to stop hemorrhaging. My sister's crunchy homebirth midwives have all carried pitocin and use it (and she knows this because she's an ideal candidate for pitocin - she bleeds a LOT after labor).

Yep, I discussed the issue with my midwife before the (hospital) birth. Based on my history, and after consultation with her (and the other midwife who was there at the birth), I decided it would be the vastly preferable alternative, so I guess you could say I requested the shot.

 

I think it's important not to go too far in the "birth is natural and perfect" direction. There are a lot of women around the world with all manner of problems (including death at or following childhood) -- my husband has several cousins who died this way. That being said, the "management" of childbirth is totally weird. I wonder how much of it is discomfort with unpredictability and messiness? I also think some women are led to believe that a c-section is easy and that it is easier to recover from than a vaginal birth, for example by citing statistics about incontinence or whatever. This is unfortunate, as there are plenty of risks and complications associated with a c-section. The wife of an acquaintance of my husband is just recovering from her apparently medically recommended/necessary c-section which involved her losing the ability to walk or something.

[La Texican]

My SIL is a nurse and worked on the mother/baby floor of a local hospital for a while. She said when they switched shifts and discussed patients, they referred to women who had birthed unmedicated as "twig and berry" women and snickered at them.

 

On the other hand, there is a bit of hope. I have a neighbor who teaches nursing at a local university and she has invited me to her women's health issues class for the last three semesters now to talk about my home births and why I chose them.

 

I read the thread all the way to the second to the last page before I had to ROFL and repeat what I just heard. "twig and berries", as in (naked with "twig and berries" flying.) google + urban dictionary.

 

They called a Woman In Labor a man?

I've heard women called men before, usually over work.

But while giving birth, for being considered too tough?

Ha, ha, they called a woman in the middle of giving birth a "man".

Ha, ha, you have to take it as a compliment, really.

[bkpan]

OP, I thought the movie was too simplistic, overly sentimental, and very biased.

 

That doesn't mean it did not make valid criticisms of the American obstetrics industry. I could share a lot worse, and more ****ing, information about it than the movie did.

 

The problem is that the BOBB makes the same cardinal mistake obstetrics does--it presumes to know what is best for mom, even more so than she does herself. And in this case, it happens to be preaching the gospel of home birth, with an attending midwife.

 

Well, I can tell you that just like there are iatrogenic-happy *******s working in hospitals, there are sloppy, poorly trained, and idiotic midwives working at home. And there are groups of "natural, child birth" folks that, frankly, piss me off with their sanctimonious B.S.

 

In case it matters, I gave birth in a freestanding birth center, with a CNM and an RN attending, after laboring in the jacuzzi. I did not have have so much as an I.V. or a heplock placed. I had no pain medications administered, although the midwife did spray some lidocaine on my perineum before my son crowned. I'm sure the more hard core would not count my L&D as "natural" or "med-free" because of that.

 

I really don't care. I prefer more scientifically accurate terms like "low-intervention vaginal birth" to "natural" anyway. I have been known to tell at least one relative of mine, who was snottily talking about her natural birth to a cousin who had a c-section, that unless she gave birth in a field or a cave, with no a/c, no additives in her food or drink, no electricity, without a midwife carrying such equipment as an oxygen tank and other supplies--that, actually, her birth was quite technologically dependent.

 

Here's my final opinion: I'm sick of the paternalism of the obstetric system, and of the NCBers who claim what is "natural" and how women were designed for this or that.

 

I don't want an OB telling me I must submit to this procedure or that, because it's procedure, and I don't want a NCB advocate telling me that if I choose to have an elective section, that it's "wrong" or "unsafe" to make such a choice.

 

I believe that all women should have access to information about procedures, statistics, history, etc. of whatever model of birth they are choosing. I believe they should be free from being coerced, manipulated, or pressured because of their decision. I also believe that they have a right to seek the least traumatizing birth experience possible, without fear of judgment and statements of "Oh, the most important thing is a healthy baby," as if her bodily integrity, her pain, her emotions are on par with a brood mare's.

 

Anything less is just more patronizing of women. Put simply, the movie did not respect women, because it did not trust them to give them the full picture. Instead, it demonized the baddies (the obstetrics industry and hospitals) and it white washed home birth midwifery.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

As I posted earlier I had hospital and birth center births. C-sections and VBACS. There is NO right method for every mom or even every birth.

 

I had a great friend who lost her last baby when the midwife made a mistake during her home birth. That midwife, out of fear, actually snuck into where the family had videotaped the birth and erased the incriminating part of where she screwed up.

 

True respect for women means giving them as much unbiased info as possible and trusting them to make the best choice for them. THEN offering 100% support in THAT choice.

[Aelwydd]

Have I told you lately that I love you? :iagree:

 

I am angry with both extremes: the OBs and hospitals that treat every woman and baby as high risk as well as the midwives and natural birth advocates that treat every woman and baby as a "variation of normal" and good candidate for home birth. Gloria Lemay and others like her scare the #%^* out of me.

 

Give women unbiased facts. Support their educated choice.

 

 

The feeling's mutual, sistah. :)

 

 

And amen!

[ktgrok]

Yep, I discussed the issue with my midwife before the (hospital) birth. Based on my history, and after consultation with her (and the other midwife who was there at the birth), I decided it would be the vastly preferable alternative, so I guess you could say I requested the shot.

 

Informed consent is a wonderful thing!!!!

 

I think it's important not to go too far in the "birth is natural and perfect" direction. There are a lot of women around the world with all manner of problems (including death at or following childhood) -- my husband has several cousins who died this way. That being said, the "management" of childbirth is totally weird. I wonder how much of it is discomfort with unpredictability and messiness?

 

Agreed. I'm a crunchy granola kind of girl, but "natural" doesn't mean safe. Hemlock is natural. So is arsenic. I am for evidence based care, not natural, not medicalized. Evidence based. And that is something that is sorely lacking in the USA. I also agree, having worked in various medical fields, that they are NOT comfortable with the unpredictability of birth. They would rather a few more risks, but ones they can control/predict, than less risks but less control and predictability. Devil you know and all that.

[mommy5]

I've given birth in 3 different hospitals ... the norm (around here) is to push pitocin on the mother (even when not needed ... when contracting and dilating on their own). To push pain meds -- even when the mom says she doesn't want them. To tell the mom that there is no way they could push out an 8 or 9 pound baby without pain meds (even if it is their 2nd or 3rd, etc.) If the mom choses to give birth without meds to act like they are crazy. That seems to be typical... After watching that movie I realized that the more interventions you allow the more interventions happen ... one things leads to more things. With my last 2 I was very clear that I didn't want pit or an epi and thankfully I didn't have either ... but women need to know what they are capable of and to have the support of a doula or really great nurses that support that choice. They also need a doctor that isn't going to come in and break their water and put them on pit just because they can. I was told with one birth to not push because the doctors were going to change shifts in 50 min. WHAT??? I said I couldn't not push and did push that baby out in about 3 min. My best births were with practioners who allowed me to decide what I wanted to do (within reason) ... positions, pushing, tub, water breaking, pain meds ... they observed what was happening but didn't step in to change anything (with my last they asked me to tell them when I wanted to be checked ... IF I wanted to be checked, etc.) The best labor (for me) was when I was active the whole time ... even into transition ... we weren't sure how far along I was so when they finally checked they realized I had already gotten to 10 and baby was coming down ... there was no time for stirrups ... no time for any interventions.

[Coffeetime]

OP, I thought the movie was too simplistic, overly sentimental, and very biased.

 

That doesn't mean it did not make valid criticisms of the American obstetrics industry. I could share a lot worse, and more ****ing, information about it than the movie did.

 

The problem is that the BOBB makes the same cardinal mistake obstetrics does--it presumes to know what is best for mom, even more so than she does herself. And in this case, it happens to be preaching the gospel of home birth, with an attending midwife.

 

Well, I can tell you that just like there are iatrogenic-happy *******s working in hospitals, there are sloppy, poorly trained, and idiotic midwives working at home. And there are groups of "natural, child birth" folks that, frankly, piss me off with their sanctimonious B.S.

 

In case it matters, I gave birth in a freestanding birth center, with a CNM and an RN attending, after laboring in the jacuzzi. I did not have have so much as an I.V. or a heplock placed. I had no pain medications administered, although the midwife did spray some lidocaine on my perineum before my son crowned. I'm sure the more hard core would not count my L&D as "natural" or "med-free" because of that.

 

I really don't care. I prefer more scientifically accurate terms like "low-intervention vaginal birth" to "natural" anyway. I have been known to tell at least one relative of mine, who was snottily talking about her natural birth to a cousin who had a c-section, that unless she gave birth in a field or a cave, with no a/c, no additives in her food or drink, no electricity, without a midwife carrying such equipment as an oxygen tank and other supplies--that, actually, her birth was quite technologically dependent.

 

Here's my final opinion: I'm sick of the paternalism of the obstetric system, and of the NCBers who claim what is "natural" and how women were designed for this or that.

 

I don't want an OB telling me I must submit to this procedure or that, because it's procedure, and I don't want a NCB advocate telling me that if I choose to have an elective section, that it's "wrong" or "unsafe" to make such a choice.

 

I believe that all women should have access to information about procedures, statistics, history, etc. of whatever model of birth they are choosing. I believe they should be free from being coerced, manipulated, or pressured because of their decision. I also believe that they have a right to seek the least traumatizing birth experience possible, without fear of judgment and statements of "Oh, the most important thing is a healthy baby," as if her bodily integrity, her pain, her emotions are on par with a brood mare's.

 

Anything less is just more patronizing of women. Put simply, the movie did not respect women, because it did not trust them to give them the full picture. Instead, it demonized the baddies (the obstetrics industry and hospitals) and it white washed home birth midwifery.

:iagree::iagree: This, every word of it.

 

(Except that I gave birth 5 times at a wonderful hospital, where absolutely nothing was ever pushed on me that I didn't ask for or want, and where I was respected.)

[Coffeetime]

I wish hospitals/OB's would look at the statistics of homebirth vs hospital birth. It's astounding. The perinatal death rate is higher in hospital births and homebirths have much lower rates of medical intervention and cesareans. To me, you'd think they could look at those numbers & think "hey, maybe we're doing something wrong here"

 

That may be true, but consider the fact that midwives won't deliver anyone at home who is considered "high risk"- the hospitals get those deliveries by default... kind of skews the statistics.

[ktgrok]

That may be true, but consider the fact that midwives won't deliver anyone at home who is considered "high risk"- the hospitals get those deliveries by default... kind of skews the statistics.

 

Actually, the studies control for this, and compare low risk to low risk.

[BinahYeteirah]

That may be true, but consider the fact that midwives won't deliver anyone at home who is considered "high risk"- the hospitals get those deliveries by default... kind of skews the statistics.

 

A well-designed study compares low-risk women in the hospital with low-risk women at home.

 

Actually, earlier in this thread, we briefly discussed a study in which a group that had mostly home births was actually a higher risk group than the mostly hospital birth group to which they were compared.

[Hannah C.]

The Business of Being Born is clearly biased against hospital births, but it is also an accurate picture of the way some hospitals can be. I think the most important thing for individual women to do is talk to other women in their area and find out what the hospitals are like there. Hospitals and doctors can vary WIDELY, as this thread has shown.

 

I live in the DFW metroplex. I am positive that my chances of a C-section would have been extremely high if I had been in a hospital instead of a birth center. I was induced (at the birth center, with cytotec) and I pushed for 2.5 hours. I think in a hospital, with monitoring, limited movement, no tub, pitocin, probably an epidural, I wouldn't have fared so well in labor. I don't know if they would have let me push for 2.5 hours, and they probably wouldn't have been so accommodating regarding positioning (I gave birth on a birth stool).

 

There are ABSOLUTELY necessary C-sections, and necessary interventions. It's up to every woman to judge her own births, and the rest of us really should keep our mouths shut about births that have passed. I think it's good to mention alternatives before births occur. But, as others have said, a 30%+ C-section rate is not a good thing.

 

As for the doctors who do anything to a laboring woman without consent (vaginal checks, manually stretching the cervix, episiotomies...), push C-sections and interventions, and are generally bullies - they are a******s who should no longer practice medicine, IMO.

[duckabell]

I have read every post in this thread as I am giving birth again in a few months with a doctor I haven't met yet, but my sister-in-law highly recommends (moving to a new city in a couple of weeks) and I hope to avoid needless interventions. I do think that natural births are possible in a hospital given the right caretaker and situation. My second was born without an epidural and little intervention and I'm hoping to do so with my next one. However, I also saw the cascade of interventions that happened with my first who was induced and almost led to a c-section. Basically the doctor told me if I pushed hard enough and he used the vacuum we could get the baby out without a c-section, which is what happened.

 

So while I never see myself having a home birth or even birth at a birthing center that wasn't connected to a hospital, I do believe that both midwives and doctors need to be honest and respectful of the birthing process and the mothers. I'm glad there are choices for birthing, but I do wish hospitals were less intervention-happy.

[3peasinWa]

Actually, the studies control for this, and compare low risk to low risk.

 

Thank you , yes. These are studies of low risk to low risk.

 

Birth, Vol 6 2009

Canadian Medical Ass Journal 2009

British Med Journal 2005

American Journ of Obstetrics & Gynecology 2003

 

Just in case someone wants to look them up for themselves.

[StaceyinLA]

Perhaps I'm reading you wrong, forgive me if I am, but I wouldn't call that an excuse, more like a completely intelligent and valid REASON for not hosting VBACs.

 

But, then again, less than two weeks ago I was watching my sister in law have a severe uterine rupture while attempting a VBAC. Had her doctor and an anesthesiologist not been on the floor we would have lost both her and the baby. The baby was completely expelled from her uterus into her abdominal cavity. As it was, baby had to be resuscitated at birth and was flown to a level III NICU. (She's actually coming home tomorrow- a miracle considering she was without oxygen for nearly 15 minutes.) So, yeah. I guess the memory of that is a little fresh in my mind as I read all of these responses....

 

this is awful, and praise God they are okay!

 

However, a uterus can rupture in a woman who has never had a c-section as well. My first midwife told me the only rupture she had ever seen was in a first-time mom. She had an epidural and nurses were pushing on her uterus externally to help get the baby out and ruptured her uterus. Just awful!

[Forget-Me-Not]

Perhaps I'm reading you wrong, forgive me if I am, but I wouldn't call that an excuse, more like a completely intelligent and valid REASON for not hosting VBACs.

 

But, then again, less than two weeks ago I was watching my sister in law have a severe uterine rupture while attempting a VBAC. Had her doctor and an anesthesiologist not been on the floor we would have lost both her and the baby. The baby was completely expelled from her uterus into her abdominal cavity. As it was, baby had to be resuscitated at birth and was flown to a level III NICU. (She's actually coming home tomorrow- a miracle considering she was without oxygen for nearly 15 minutes.) So, yeah. I guess the memory of that is a little fresh in my mind as I read all of these responses....

 

:grouphug: That must have been terrifying. I'm glad they both came through okay.

 

The issue is that if they can't handle an emergency c-section for a rupture, that also means they can't handle an emergency c-section for cord prolapse, placental abruption, etc etc....which can happen in any mom. So either they CAN do emergency c sections for moms or they can't....why the section is needed, or if the woman had a previous surgery, really has nothing to do with it.

 

Right, ktgrok worded it better than I managed to. Even perfectly health first-timers (or multiparas!) have major emergencies with birth that have nothing to do with prior births. My hospital has an in-house anesthesiologist all the time, but they don't have one dedicated to *just* the OB floor (and we're not talking a huge hospital here). And when I walked in at 5:30 a.m. on morning, hemorrhaging with a major placental abruption, they gave me an emergent c-section under general anesthesia, no problem.

 

I just brought up the anesthesiology thing because someone else mentioned staffing issues. But, if you want to know, the REAL reason I think they don't like to do VBAC in this area? Because the doctor has to stay on the floor for his/her laboring patient. They can't stay at their clinic seeing regular patients and rush in to catch the baby atthelastpossiblesecond like they do at other vaginal births. So, for some, it's mere inconvenience. But, for others, it's a real financial issue, because they literally can't afford to NOT be seeing patients every second of the working day that they possibly can. Why? Insurance reimbursement sucks.

 

Like I said, the whole thing is a mess.

Edited July 11, 2012 by LemonPie

[Slartibartfast]

It speeds up delivery of the placenta....it is normal practice to inject the woman in the thigh with pitocin as soon as the baby is out, IF she somehow managed to avoid pit during labor....although that is pretty rare.

 

Breastfeeding immediately after the birth also speeds up delivery of the placenta.

[NASDAQ]

Gloria Lemay _should_ scare people. She's a murderess, excused from her crime (criminal negligence causing the death of a child) only on the rather technical detail that the babies who died due to her appalling mis-care did so prior to fully exciting the birth canal and were not yet full persons under Canadian law -- true legally perhaps, but cold comfort to mothers who would have had live children but for Lemay's arrogance and disregard.

 

NB that these are criminal cases, not medical malpractice cases.

 

http://canlii.ca/en/ca/scc/doc/1991/1991canlii85/1991canlii85.html

 

Any source that cites Lemay is either ignorant or contemptuous of women's and infants' health.

 

Lemay has been taken to court by the BC College of Midwives several times for calling herself a midwife and acting as a midwife when she is not legally entitled to do so.

[ktgrok]

Gloria Lemay _should_ scare people. She's a murderess, excused from her crime (criminal negligence causing the death of a child) only on the rather technical detail that the babies who died due to her appalling mis-care did so prior to fully exciting the birth canal and were not yet full persons under Canadian law -- true legally perhaps, but cold comfort to mothers who would have had live children but for Lemay's arrogance and disregard.

 

NB that these are criminal cases, not medical malpractice cases.

 

http://canlii.ca/en/ca/scc/doc/1991/1991canlii85/1991canlii85.html

 

Any source that cites Lemay is either ignorant or contemptuous of women's and infants' health.

 

Lemay has been taken to court by the BC College of Midwives several times for calling herself a midwife and acting as a midwife when she is not legally entitled to do so.

 

Not to start more controversy, but can you link me to what happened here? IN the states this isn't a case that I've heard of. Obviously babies do die sometimes, I'd be interested in seeing what happened (if only to know what the hell not to do myself). the court case you linked doesn't seem to discuss the circumstances. (and yes, I'm very very glad that midwives where I am are trained and licensed, and, as importantly, have a good collaborative arrangement with the hospitals for transfer purposed. Just this week two women in my mom's group transferred for c-sections actually...one for non reassuring heart tones and one because she was dilating and waters were bulging but there was no head coming down..midwife was worried about possible cord prolapse if the waters broke....sure enough upon surgery they found that the cord was presenting ahead of the baby).

[LittleIzumi]

Not to start more controversy, but can you link me to what happened here? IN the states this isn't a case that I've heard of. Obviously babies do die sometimes, I'd be interested in seeing what happened (if only to know what the hell not to do myself). the court case you linked doesn't seem to discuss the circumstances. (and yes, I'm very very glad that midwives where I am are trained and licensed, and, as importantly, have a good collaborative arrangement with the hospitals for transfer purposed. Just this week two women in my mom's group transferred for c-sections actually...one for non reassuring heart tones and one because she was dilating and waters were bulging but there was no head coming down..midwife was worried about possible cord prolapse if the waters broke....sure enough upon surgery they found that the cord was presenting ahead of the baby).

 

There's some info in the link. She was not licensed/no formal training, baby's head emerged and then ctxs stopped, they were unable to get them started again, called emergency services after twenty minutes, and the baby was delivered within two minutes of EMS arriving using "a basic delivery technique" (I assume the implication is that if she was trained she would have known it) and could not be resuscitated.

[ktgrok]

There's some info in the link. She was not licensed/no formal training, baby's head emerged and then ctxs stopped, they were unable to get them started again, called emergency services after twenty minutes, and the baby was delivered within two minutes of EMS arriving using "a basic delivery technique" (I assume the implication is that if she was trained she would have known it) and could not be resuscitated.

 

thanks...scary. And you know, that is why I said earlier that when hiring a homebirth midwife one thing that is really important to find out is their transfer protocols and relationship with local doctors/hospitals. Becasue Lemay was practicing illegally (which I do NOT agree with and think is dumb dumb dumb on her part), I have to think it effects when and if she transfers, with sometimes disasterous consequences.

 

One of the main reasons I use the midwife I do is that she is respected by the local hospital and doctors, so if she calls and says jump they say how high. No hesitation, they trust her judgement.

 

what you describe is terrifying

[LittleIzumi]

thanks...scary. And you know, that is why I said earlier that when hiring a homebirth midwife one thing that is really important to find out is their transfer protocols and relationship with local doctors/hospitals. Becasue Lemay was practicing illegally (which I do NOT agree with and think is dumb dumb dumb on her part), I have to think it effects when and if she transfers, with sometimes disasterous consequences.

 

One of the main reasons I use the midwife I do is that she is respected by the local hospital and doctors, so if she calls and says jump they say how high. No hesitation, they trust her judgement.

 

what you describe is terrifying

 

I am trying to fathom some reason to wait t w e n t y m i n u t e s in this situation, esp without medical equipment herself (I assume, as an unlicensed/noncertified midwife). I can't.

[Coffeetime]

Actually, the studies control for this, and compare low risk to low risk.

 

Thank you for setting me straight. I wasn't aware of that. :001_smile:

 

I think I am just so sick of the rhetoric surrounding childbirth. I had an unmedicated, non-intervention birth. It was the *worst* experience of my life. I came away from it literally traumatized. There are large portions of it that I don't even remember.

 

For my last 4 deliveries, according the the NCB people, I have done basically everything "wrong". (Elective inductions at 39 weeks, epidurals, pit...) But I did what *I* was comfortable with, instead of trying to live up to other's expectations. I weighed risks, options and made the decisions I made because they were what was best for me and my family. And I came away with amazing, wonderful birth experiences and healthy, happy babies. (I do happen to have an amazing doctor, however. ;) )

 

It seems like people (and forgive me for saying so, but IME particularly those who are into natural child birth and home birth) get so... religious about their birth choice. Like they're always proselytizing everyone around them. And honestly, it tends to make those of us who have made different choices (researched, intelligently made choices) feel like we're... less than. I don't run around shouting from the rooftops that my choice was superior to home birth. It was for *me*, but maybe it's not for *you*.

The most recent example of this was when a friend posted on FB about her upcoming induction (she was very post-dates, and was quite comfortable with her doctor inducing). She received so many "Don't let them induce you!" "Pitocin is of the devil!" "The baby will come when it's ready stop trying to rush it!" type comments I felt terrible for her.

 

I just wish women would respect each other and their individual choices more. Ya know?

 

(Thank you so much everyone for your kind words re my SIL. It was horrifying, but she's doing so great and so is the baby. She's our little miracle baby! :001_smile: We're very thankful she was where she was. )