Biblical justification for cessationism? (cc)

[tntgoodwin]

Could somebody explain to me the biblical reasons for cessationism? Most of the arguments I have heard for it are experiential or otherwise extra-biblically based.

I expect everyone in here to remain respectful of people who share a different point-of-view than your own. :001_smile:

[Ellie]

Um...I don't know what "cessationism" even is...:001_huh:

[ChristyB in TN]

I have no idea about the Biblical justification for it but Wikipedia has some nice explanations. I'm not religious but my family history has a lot of colorful stories of snake handling and hot coals being passed around to prove faith. My grandparents were mountain people who believed strongly in many of these things and it is such a beautiful memory for me. I loved them and their beliefs. Looks like there are different meaning of the word, too. I am referring to the spiritual gifts, speaking in tongues, etc. The other definitions just go over my head completely. Neat subject!:D

Edited May 29, 2012 by Mad Charity

[tntgoodwin]

Sorry!

 

It's the point of view that certain spiritual gifts have "ceased." Usually referring to the miraculous sign gifts, such as prophecy, tongues, healing, etc.

[ma23peas]

Um...I don't know what "cessationism" even is...:001_huh:

 

Me either! Best guess, ceasing a physical relationship bc it is not purely for procreating? If that is the case, more scripture supports the opposite.

[ma23peas]

Sorry!

 

It's the point of view that certain spiritual gifts have "ceased." Usually referring to the miraculous sign gifts, such as prophecy, tongues, healing, etc.

 

Ah! Like your explanation much better! Ha! No, I still believe they exist. Especially healing and prophecy! But tongues I have never come across but not enough evidence to say they do not exist and nowhere oes scripture state that..that I have studied.

[milovany]

That's one of those myriad of things that if you look solely at the Bible, you can justify both approaches (that the gifts have ceased, and that they have not). People can post Scriptures saying they prove one thing, others can post Scriptures proving the opposite approach. I've seen it done. So I'm not much help, but just want to share in your eventual frustration LOL.

Edited May 29, 2012 by milovaný

[Liz CA]

Well, in our own family, we are somewhat divided on this point. I have a SIL who says she speaks in tongues and for a while, many years ago, unfortunately made everyone feel they should do the same. I personally feel if it was something helpful, we would all be able to avail ourselves of it not just a few select people. I don't know what she does, what it feels like to her or if it is real (to her it is) or not quite.

I have never felt the urge to do so nor do I think I could. It could be that it is like talents...all of us have different talents. Perhaps some do speak in tongues, while others have the gift of comforting, others are prayer warriors, etc.

As I get older, I don't see these things as all or nothing anymore. God is not limited by anything, therefore a lot of things are possible. :D

[LillyMama]

Could somebody explain to me the biblical reasons for cessationism? Most of the arguments I have heard for it are experiential or otherwise extra-biblically based.

I expect everyone in here to remain respectful of people who share a different point-of-view than your own. :001_smile:

 

I cannot give you the Biblical reasons off the top of my head, but I went to a church that found a nice balance in how they taught this. Basically, their take was that the gifts don't necessarily cease but how they manifest in current culture are different from what we read in the Bible. Their definition of prophecy made it so it's my husband's primary gift- not necessarily talking of the future, but speaking the truth boldly. The speaking in tongues things kind of morphed in what they called Creative Communication- music, art, writing, drama, etc- that took new mediums to give voice to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. They provided Scripture for each of these things in the notebooks they provided when I took the class. I'll see if I can dig them up. But maybe not today. ;)

[Slartibartfast]

I don't believe they have ceased.

[Carol in Cal.]

Even Paul says, "Not all speak in tongues, do they?". In the actual Bible.

 

So even if one believes that the modern phenomenon called 'speaking in tongues' is the same as that mentioned in the Bible, (which I do not), the idea that everyone should do it is clearly taught against, without any doubt at all.

[Carol in Cal.]

And, BTW, I am not going to engage in any debates about the modern phenomenon.

[brett_ashley]

The biblical support is found in I Corinthians 13.

 

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, I gain nothing.

 

4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

 

8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

 

13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

[Liz CA]

Even Paul says, "Not all speak in tongues, do they?". In the actual Bible.

 

So even if one believes that the modern phenomenon called 'speaking in tongues' is the same as that mentioned in the Bible, (which I do not), the idea that everyone should do it is clearly taught against, without any doubt at all.

 

Carol, can you give me a scripture? Thank you for posting. This seems to support my thoughts and feelings on it. I have read a lot of passages on the subject but cannot remember this statement by Paul.

[Carol in Cal.]

I Cor. 12:30--Here it is with a bit of context. If you go back further in the chapter, there is a very long section on spiritual gifts. Then in I Cor. 13 God talks about the transcendent importance of love.

 

27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28 And God has [r] appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of [t]miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts.

[Slartibartfast]

The biblical support is found in I Corinthians 13.

 

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, I gain nothing.

 

4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

 

8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

 

13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

 

I don't believe that is evidence.

 

Has "the perfect" come? Have we achieve completeness? Have we known God "face-to-face?" Only one person has been known to have seen through a perfect lens, Moses.

 

He's the only one to know the face of God. The rest of us still see "through a glass darkly." We are still children.

 

Why would gifts cease within the church when demons are still active on earth?

Edited May 29, 2012 by Sis

[brett_ashley]

I don't believe that is evidence.

 

I agree that is it weak from an evidentiary standpoint, the historical evidence is much more telling. The private prayer language that characterize tongues today does not much resemble tongues in Acts.

[Liz CA]

I Cor. 12:30--Here it is with a bit of context. If you go back further in the chapter, there is a very long section on spiritual gifts. Then in I Cor. 13 God talks about the transcendent importance of love.

 

27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28 And God has [r] appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of [t]miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts.

 

Thank you!

[Georgiana Daniels]

:bigear:

 

I've also heard the 1 Corinthians 13 passage used to justify, but I don't think the perfect has come. Our pastor explained that some believe the Bible is "the perfect" that is referenced, but that seems too vague to me.

 

Very interested in what others have to say!

[Heather in Neverland]

This link sums up my thoughts on the issue: http://www.gotquestions.org/cessationism.html

[Slartibartfast]

I agree that is it weak from an evidentiary standpoint, the historical evidence is much more telling. The private prayer language that characterize tongues today does not much resemble tongues in Acts.

 

There are multiple purposes for tongues, only one being prayer language.

 

It is weak evidence indeed in light of I Corinthians 14, which is directly contrary to your point.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Sis

[TravelingChris]

I think tongues is mistranslated = obviously what it meant in the Pentecoast was languages. In at least one language, the word for tongue and language is the same. I don't know any ancient languages so have no idea if it is the same in them.

 

I am with Heather in NC that it has passed. HOwever, that belief of mine is not one of the main ones, like was discussed in a recent thread.

[Ellie]

Even Paul says, "Not all speak in tongues, do they?". In the actual Bible.

 

But he's talking about two different things in that section of 1 Corinthians: the *ministry* of speaking in tongues (12:27ff, which lists the ministries appointed in the church), and the *gifts* in general given to all believers (12:4-11).

 

Someone who has the *ministry* of speaking in tongues is the one you can count on to give a message in tongues during a prayer service of some kind, which would be followed by an interpretation, either by the person who gave the message or by someone else.

 

Not all believers have the *ministry* of speaking in tongues. All believers can speak in tongues as part of their own prayer, and sometimes God gives the gift of speaking in tongues on a one-time basis. This is true of healing (someone can have the ministry of healing, and someone can have a one-time gift of healing for a specific circumstance) and the other gifts.

 

So, no, not all have the *ministry* of tongues, healing, etc., but all can have the gifts as needed.

 

IOW, speaking in tongues is not "clearly" taught against.

 

Of course, if you aren't a member of a group which believes that the gifts are operative at all today, then you won't agree with this at all. You'll believe that the "perfect" is the Bible, and that since we have the Bible, we don't need the gifts. I believe that the "perfect" is Jesus, and since He has not returned, you bet we still need the gifts and they have definitely not ceased. :-)

[brett_ashley]

There are multiple purposes for tongues, only one being prayer language.

 

Where is the biblical support for tongues used as a prayer language?

[Lisa in SC]

I Cor. 12:30--Here it is with a bit of context. If you go back further in the chapter, there is a very long section on spiritual gifts. Then in I Cor. 13 God talks about the transcendent importance of love.

 

27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28 And God has [r] appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of [t]miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts.

 

 

Forgive me if I am being contentious; that isn't my intention. Regarding what I bolded above, if someone is speaking in tongues, shouldn't someone else be present who can interpret, or shouldn't everyone present simply understand? Otherwise, what is the point? If no one can understand, it doesn't seem useful to me.

 

ETA: After reading posts prior to mine, I see where 1 Corinthians 14 specifically discusses the gift of tongues for an individual speaking to God. However, I'm still of the mind that this would be a private gift. Not something for public use, if that makes sense. Also, at lease pp indicated that all believers have this gift. I don't. Does this make me a non-believer in some eyes? Corinthians 14 seems to indicate that some have this gift, but I did not see a reference that *all* believers have this ability/gift. I have lots of questions, it seems. :)

 

I can't help but think of Acts 2:1-8 (and even more, if you want to read on). The apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit and did speak in tongues. However, in verses 5-6, we read, "5Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language."

 

I have no idea whether the apostles were truly speaking in each language, or if they were speaking in an "angel's" language that therefore enabled the crowd to understand. Either way, it seems to me that there was a definite purpose to it. If a person speaks in tongues, but those present do not understand, then I don't know what the purpose of the tongues could be.

 

I'm absolutely not implying that I have some great understanding of the subject. These are just musings and questions I've had for a while. My apologies if I've ruffled any feathers; that was most certainly not my goal.

 

ETA: After reading posts prior to mine, I see where 1 Corinthians 14 specifically discusses the gift of tongues for an individual speaking to God. However, I'm still of the mind that this would be a private gift. Not something for public use, if that makes sense. Also, at least one pp indicated that all believers have this gift. I don't. Does this make me a non-believer in some eyes? Corinthians 14 seems to indicate that some have this gift, but I did not see a reference that *all* believers have this ability/gift. I have lots of questions, it seems. :)

Edited May 29, 2012 by sclisa

[Slartibartfast]

Where is the biblical support for tongues used as a prayer language?

 

I Corinthians 14 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[c] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

 

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+12%3A4-11&version=NIV

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2012&version=NIV

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:15-20&version=NIV

Edited May 29, 2012 by Sis

[Carol in Cal.]

 

 

 

IOW, speaking in tongues is not "clearly" taught against.

 

 

Again, not arguing whether the modern phenomenon is what the Bible referred to, but just to the referenced point, what I think is clear is that not all are to speak in tongues. Not every Christian.

 

It's disturbing to see speaking in tongues considered the test of true Christianity or something that every Christian should do, and that is what I was talking about. I did not say that speaking in tongues is 'clearly' taught against, but rather that the idea that every Christian should do it is 'clearly' taught against.

[Slartibartfast]

 

ETA: After reading posts prior to mine, I see where 1 Corinthians 14 specifically discusses the gift of tongues for an individual speaking to God. However, I'm still of the mind that this would be a private gift. Not something for public use, if that makes sense. Also, at lease pp indicated that all believers have this gift. I don't. Does this make me a non-believer in some eyes? Corinthians 14 seems to indicate that some have this gift, but I did not see a reference that *all* believers have this ability/gift. I have lots of questions, it seems. :)

 

 

 

I don't believe there is a reference that everyone does have it, in I Corinthians 12 Paul says quite clearly that people have different spiritual gifts.

 

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+12&version=NIV

Edited May 29, 2012 by Sis

[Lisa in SC]

I don't believe there is a reference that everyone does have it, in I Corinthians 12 Paul says quite clearly that people have different spiritual gifts.

 

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+12&version=NIV

 

 

This was the passage to which I had referred prior to my edit (not as a quote, but as reading before formulating my question). Thanks for clarifying. :001_smile:

[Cindy in FL.]

Heather,

 

Thanks for this link. This pretty mych sums up my thoughts as well.

 

Cindy

 

This link sums up my thoughts on the issue: http://www.gotquestions.org/cessationism.html

[tntgoodwin]

The biblical support is found in I Corinthians 13.

 

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, I gain nothing.

 

4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

 

8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

 

13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

 

 

Thanks! Is this the only verse used to support this argument? It does appear weak at best, as some have already mentioned in this thread.

[tntgoodwin]

This link sums up my thoughts on the issue: http://www.gotquestions.org/cessationism.html

 

Interesting, thanks for the link!

 

It seems to be implying that these gifts were limited to the Apostles...is that a correct observation?

[TranquilMind]

Could somebody explain to me the biblical reasons for cessationism? Most of the arguments I have heard for it are experiential or otherwise extra-biblically based.

I expect everyone in here to remain respectful of people who share a different point-of-view than your own. :001_smile:

 

Why cessationists believe that the sign gifts have ceased:

 

1. Experience

2. What they were taught (like me, growing up Baptist)

3. First Corinthians 13:

1If I speak in the tonguesa of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,b but have not love, I gain nothing.

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

 

Cessationists focus on Verse 10, assuming this means that when the Bible, the perfect, comes, the imperfect, which they assume are sign gifts, disappear. They ignore verse 12, which indicates that "then (when the perfect comes), we shall see face to face" but now we see dimly.

 

If the Bible were the "perfect", then we'd clearly already be seeing face to face. We don't, because the perfect - which I believe is the return of Jesus, when the church age closes - has not come yet, hence, we still "see through a glass darkly" (the RSV version that I remember).

[TranquilMind]

Even Paul says, "Not all speak in tongues, do they?". In the actual Bible.

 

So even if one believes that the modern phenomenon called 'speaking in tongues' is the same as that mentioned in the Bible, (which I do not), the idea that everyone should do it is clearly taught against, without any doubt at all.

 

But he also says, "I speak in tongues more than you all" on his own time, clearly delineating the two uses of tongues. "But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue" (1 Cor 14:19) and that we are not to forbid the speaking in tongues, referring to the public gift of delivering a message to the church which needs to be translated.

 

1 Cor 14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. 16If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understande say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? 17You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.

18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

 

Edited May 29, 2012 by TranquilMind

[Slartibartfast]

Interesting, thanks for the link!

 

It seems to be implying that these gifts were limited to the Apostles...is that a correct observation?

 

Corinthians specifically discusses spiritual gifts within the church, unless every member was an Apostle I don't see how that argument can be made.

[Slartibartfast]

 

If the Bible were the "perfect", then we'd clearly already be seeing face to face. We don't, because the perfect - which I believe is the return of Jesus, when the church age closes - has not come yet, hence, we still "see through a glass darkly" (the RSV version that I remember).

 

I agree.

[Juniper]

my very brief thoughts: no matter what the Bible says on this issue, even if you could prove these gifts were DONE, God is in the buisness of bringing the dead to life. It is fine for them to have died out, and it is fine for God to bring them back to life. His perogative not mine.

 

Now, I will says this is one of the reasons I cannot believe in sola scriptura. It subtly attempts to box God within the words of the Bible. :D

[AuntieM]

Tony, regarding tongues, you might want to break out your concordance and Greek dictionary and do a good word study on "glossa."

 

I agree with Heather. However, I do believe God can do whatever He wants to do, whenever He chooses to do it. :D

 

Specifically regarding tongues, I think one thing Paul emphasizes is whether or not the use of tongues is edifying to the body. How does anyone benefit from something no one can understand? How does an individual bless his fellow believers with a "private" prayer language? I ask these questions rhetorically, just to offer you food for thought.

 

I personally think of my push-the-limit kids when I read Paul's response to the Corinthians, as he lays out the "procedures" for the speaking/interpretation of tongues in the church. Think about it - your kids want to do such-n-such. You don't think it's the best idea, but they are determined! So you say, "Okay... if you can line up this and that and the other thing (purposefully making it clear, safe and challenging to comply), then you can do it." I get the idea that Paul is going with their desire but laying out circumstances that he feels they may not be able to meet, kwim? And if they can't get all the must-haves to line up, perhaps they will shift their focus away from tongues as a spectacular gift. OF COURSE THIS IS JUST MY OPINION! But I can't help but read this from a parent/shepherd perspective.

[Bluegoat]

I also think the verses referenced were pretty weak.

 

That being said, it doesn't mean that any or all of the things commonly purported to be spiritual gifts actually are - I don't think the glossolalia commonly practiced today by Christians and others is in fact what was described in Scripture.

[mytwomonkeys]

i still believe in miracles. absolutely.

[Slartibartfast]

That being said, it doesn't mean that any or all of the things commonly purported to be spiritual gifts actually are - I don't think the glossolalia commonly practiced today by Christians and others is in fact what was described in Scripture.

 

I guess it depends on the church and individuals. There are cautious in regard to it but I am not sure they are heeded to the degree that some may be comfortable with.

 

My parents were at church one day and a woman spoke in tongues. The pastor made a comment in regard to certain people only showing up to church every six months and how they ALWAYS have a message for the congregation. :lol:

 

If someone speaks in tongues during church the congregation expects an interpretation, if that doesn't happen they don't like it.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Sis

[LittleIzumi]

I still believe the gifts of God are present on the Earth and are given where they are needed. :) I don't believe that everyone has every gift--I certain don't have the gift of tongues, but I know several people who would qualify!

[Bluegoat]

I guess it depends on the church and individuals. There are cautious in regard to it but I am not sure they are heeded to the degree that some may be comfortable with.

 

My parents were at church one day and a woman spoke in tongues. The pastor made a comment in regard to certain people only showing up to church every six months and how they ALWAYS have a message for the congregation. :lol:

 

If someone speaks in tongues during church the congregation expects an interpretation, if that doesn't happen they don't like it.

 

I understand what you are saying, but that isn't quite what I meant. I am not saying I think that it is done when it shouldn't be. I mean that I do not think that what is commonly called speaking in tongues today - a sort of stream of words in an unrecognizable "language", is what is talked about in Scripture at all. I think it is a totally different thing which has nothing to do with spiritual gifts.

[Slartibartfast]

I understand what you are saying, but that isn't quite what I meant. I am not saying I think that it is done when it shouldn't be. I mean that I do not think that what is commonly called speaking in tongues today - a sort of stream of words in an unrecognizable "language", is what is talked about in Scripture at all. I think it is a totally different thing which has nothing to do with spiritual gifts.

 

I quoted this passage above

 

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

 

Which I think entails that interpreting is a separate spiritual gift. When I have heard tongues (that accompanied interpretation, which is the only times I tend to count) it didn't sound like gibberish, it had cadence. I myself have never spoken in tongues.

[momofkhm]

Ah! Like your explanation much better! Ha! No, I still believe they exist. Especially healing and prophecy! But tongues I have never come across but not enough evidence to say they do not exist and nowhere oes scripture state that..that I have studied.

 

Tongues - I have heard it. We have a team in the back during communion to pray for people. There has been once or twice that I've gone back for prayer ad the guy praying prayed in tongues. The first time it was really weird. "What is he saying and why can't I understand him?" The second time, I knew what was going on and it wasn't weird at all.

 

The rest of the gifts - yep, I believe they all exist. Each believer has a spiritual gift. Sometimes more than one but I don't think anyone has them all.

[Chris in VA]

So does cessationism include gifts like healing, along with the tongues idea?

I absolutely believe there are those with that gift. I've seen it and experienced it.

But I do think God uses it pretty selectively, largely for the same reason Jesus used it selectively. I think people would be so focused on the WOW factor of it that they would worship the person instead of God. It's just human nature.

JMO.

[happyhomemaker25]

My pastor has a paper on this that I think you would find interesting. I just emailed and asked him for it. When he sends it I will pass it on.

[Bluegoat]

I quoted this passage above

 

Which I think entails that interpreting is a separate spiritual gift. When I have heard tongues (that accompanied interpretation, which is the only times I tend to count) it didn't sound like gibberish, it had cadence. I myself have never spoken in tongues.

 

Yes, what people call speaking in tongues has a cadence - that has nothing to do with whether or not it is gibberish. It happens, interestingly enough, in religions besides Christianity, cadence and all.

[tntgoodwin]

My pastor has a paper on this that I think you would find interesting. I just emailed and asked him for it. When he sends it I will pass it on.

 

Thanks! What point of view is he coming from?

[Celia]

I don't believe that the holy spirit gifts are around today, and the Biblical justification for that goes far beyond 1Cor.13. A person needs to look at how the Holy Spirit is given throughout Scripture. I'll type something up after supper :)