What do you think of Bob Jones University?

[Audrey]

I was actually refering to Tibbie gleefully tossing a lit match into an otherwise useful discussion.

 

 

Huh? I'm sorry. I must have missed the puff of smoke.

 

;)

[Audrey]

Read that post again. She said your views were ironic. She did not say your views were accurate. Public universities can and do "discriminate" against low-quality educational institutions. It has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with academics. As others have said many times, there are plenty of religious colleges that are not automatically dismissed due to such a discriminator.

 

 

Bingo. And, unaccredited institutions will get it the worst. Really. It is such a complete joke to apply to a grad program with a "degree" from an unaccredited institution. BJU apps were on par with apps from grads of BillyJack's Backyard College. Jokes. All of them.

 

ETA: FTR, at the time I reviewed dept. apps, BJU was still unaccredited.

[TXMary2]

Let me try to be clearer here. No, there is no time. Let me try to sum up.

 

I believe that the original poster whose DH summarily dismissed applicants from BJU wasn't doing it from religious prejudice, but because of the academic reputation of the institution. This reputation mainly stems from the kerfluffle around inter-racial dating. Now, I have no idea what the academic qualities of BJU really are, but as I try to teach my kids, reputations are delicate things to cultivate, and once destroyed, take a long time to repair.

 

I pointed out that BJU clearly won't accept applicants from all kinds of religious faiths, including most Christian denominations. As danestress correctly commented, this is perfectly legal, and I don't have a problem with it.

 

Nonetheless, if you do believe (as I don't) that the med school applicants at the unnamed university were rejected for religious reason, it is completely hypocritical to complain that this unnamed university is illegally discriminating against all Christians, and to have this discrimination cause your blood to boil. If you believe that BJU can legally accept only certain kinds of Baptists, you shouldn't have any problem allowing some other school to only allow non-Baptists. (Again, I don't believe that's actually what's happening, but just for the sake of the argument.) That's just consistent.

 

 

Sigh. You can spin it any way you want, but the reality is they view BJU as academically inferior because they have the audacity to insert God into matters of science. Therefore they are discriminating on grounds of religion. Clearly, they think Christians aren't as bright as those who are smart enough to reject God and/or Creationism. Unless of course you are a christian who accepts evolution.

[TXMary2]

http://usscouts.org/advance/boyscout/bsoath.asp

 

I know that many non-believers are indifferent to oaths like this, but some of us decline to pay lip service, either out of respect for those with sincere religious beliefs, out of a sense of honesty, or because one wishes to point out that religion is out of place in a given situation (in my life, I've declined such oaths for all of those reasons).

 

I didn't feel like being a test case for the local group by having kiddo leave out the God in the oath. He didn't want to include it, and I didn't want to make a stink. So, kiddo didn't join.

 

Can boys advance that far without ever reciting the oath? I was under the impression it was one of the first steps! I did ask, obliquely, in an email to the troop, but never got a reply.

 

 

He was a believer when he joined the Scouts. He has put years of hard work in to becoming an Eagle and he wants to complete it. He has no problem saying the oath because he doesn't believe when he uses the word "God" that he is professing allegiance or worshipping, because to him "God" is non existent. If he were asked outright in a board of review he would tell the truth and accept if he was turned down for Eagle. He has said it would make him sad and angry, but he understands the Scouts have their rules.

 

Personally, I think his atheism is a phase he is going through, at least I hope so. I'd like to think that deep down he still believes in something, but he says he doesn't.

[Haiku]

No, they think they are academically inferior because they are UNACCREDITED!!

 

Tara

Sigh. You can spin it any way you want, but the reality is they view BJU as academically inferior because they have the audacity to insert God into matters of science. Therefore they are discriminating on grounds of religion.

 

Again, I don't think this is true, but so what if the unnamed University is discriminating based on religion? It wouldn't be illegal, and BJU does the exact same thing. BJU believes that non-Baptist Christians aren't smart enough to understand the True Word of God, therefore they too discriminate on the basis of religion. Neither position is illegal or worth blood-boiling over. Believing that one of these is OK, but the other isn't, is just a logical contradiction.

Edited April 8, 2012 by GGardner

[Lady Florida.]

Well, that's interesting. My athiest son hasn't been kicked out of his troop and is in fact a Life Scout moving on to Eagle this year. His Scoutmaster and his friends all know his feelings, but he doesn't act confrontational or hostile when the troop closes with prayer or recites the oath. I am not saying that is what your son did, but if my son was being hostile or complaining about it in any way I would expect someone to say he was free to go elsewhere!

 

My son was not kicked out of Boy Scouts. He was a Cub Scout, and we were unaware of the rule against atheists at the time. No one in the Pack knew we were atheists, because in my area it's just easier not to advertise your lack of belief in a deity. When ds was a Webelos 1, we started looking more closely at the Boy Scouts rules. There is a Duty to God requirement, which I understand a number of atheists go through the motions to complete. My ds didn't want to pretend he's something that he isn't, so he chose not to cross over.

 

From the website Margaret in CO linked: (italics in the last sentence is mine)

 

Policies ● Youth and Adult Volunteers

Boy Scouts of America believes that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. Accordingly, youth members and adult volunteer leaders of Boy Scouts of America obligate themselves to do their duty to God and be reverent as embodied in the Scout Oath and the Scout Law. Leaders also must subscribe to the Declaration of Religious Principle. Because of its views concerning the duty to God, Boy Scouts of America believes that an atheist or agnostic is not an appropriate role model of the Scout Oath and Law for adolescent boys. Because of Scouting’s methods and beliefs, Scouting does not accept atheists and agnostics as members or adult volunteer leaders.

 

Sorry for pulling this off topic. I just wanted to point out that private organizations can and do legally discriminate.

Edited April 8, 2012 by floridamom
fixed spelling

[TXMary2]

No, they think they are academically inferior because they are UNACCREDITED!!

 

Tara

 

No, Tara, this is what she said:

 

DH is on a committee to review medical students applications. He's an atheist but many of his coworkers are Catholic, Baptist, whatever.

 

EVERYONE looked at the BJU on this person's application and laughed. No one even bothered opening it. It went into the discard pile.

 

I'm sure BJU has graduated more than one intelligent person in its history. But I am more sure that a degree from BJU was more of a hindrance in professional circles.

 

No mention about it being because they were unaccredited. Clearly, just the name BJU invoked laughter and it "went to the discard pile." She implied anyone going to BJU must be stupid.

[TXMary2]

Again, I don't think this is true, but so what if the unnamed University is discriminating based on religion? It wouldn't be illegal, and BJU does the exact same thing. BJU believes that non-Baptist Christians aren't smart enough to understand the True Word of God, therefore they too discriminate on the basis of religion. Neither position is illegal or worth blood-boiling over. Believing that one of these is OK, but the other isn't, is just a logical contradiction.

 

Don't subscribe words to me that I didn't utter. I never said anything about what BJU does or doesn't do, I am talking about what another poster's husband and co-workers did. I don't believe "two wrongs make a right." I do know BJU is a private school and they can discriminate. If the other poster's husband was at a public university, he committed discrimination based on religion. My blood is not boiling, it was another poster that said that. I don't care about it specifically, but I do find double standards and hypocrisy around here pretty annoying. I have no interest in BJU, my children won't attend BJU, so none of this personally matters to me.

[TXMary2]

My son was not kicked out of Boy Scouts. He was a Cub Scout, and we were unaware of the rule against atheists at the time. No one in the Pack knew we were atheists, because in my area it's just easier not to advertise your lack of belief in a deity. When ds was a Webelos 1, we started looking more closely at the Boy Scouts rules. There is a Duty to God requirement, which I understand a number of atheists go through the motions to complete. My ds didn't want to pretend he's something that he isn't, so he chose not to cross over.

 

From the website Margaret in CO linked: (italics in the last sentence is mine)

 

Policies ● Youth and Adult Volunteers

Boy Scouts of America believes that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. Accordingly, youth members and adult volunteer leaders of Boy Scouts of America obligate themselves to do their duty to God and be reverent as embodied in the Scout Oath and the Scout Law. Leaders also must subscribe to the Declaration of Religious Principle. Because of its views concerning the duty to God, Boy Scouts of America believes that an atheist or agnostic is not an appropriate role model of the Scout Oath and Law for adolescent boys. Because of Scouting’s methods and beliefs, Scouting does not accept atheists and agnostics as members or adult volunteer leaders.

 

Sorry for pulling this off topic. I just wanted to point out that private organizations can and do legally discriminate.

 

I understand that private organizations have this right. Unless I missed it, I didn't see that the poster whose husband committed discrimination against a student, was part of a private institution. If he was, fine, discriminate away, but if it was a public university then what happened should be unacceptable.

[Mrs Mungo]

Sigh. You can spin it any way you want, but the reality is they view BJU as academically inferior because they have the audacity to insert God into matters of science. Therefore they are discriminating on grounds of religion. Clearly, they think Christians aren't as bright as those who are smart enough to reject God and/or Creationism. Unless of course you are a christian who accepts evolution.

 

That is BS, you honestly don't know what you're talking about. In the past BJU *chose* not to become accredited. Why? They didn't want the influence of outside agencies on their ideas. Okay, fine. But, that puts you in with the unaccredited diploma mill schools. Other schools often *will not* accept credits from schools without regional accreditation. That means that you can't do two years and transfer your credits to Clemson, the way that you *could* if you attended Oklahoma Baptist University and wanted to transfer to the University of Oklahoma.

 

The same is true if you wanted to attend certain graduate schools. The same would be true if you were applying for a job that required a degree from a regionally accredited school. It has *no freaking thing* to do with their religious beliefs. None. Zero. Zilch. Even Liberty University and Oral Roberts University have regional accreditation. I know in the past (because I'm from Oklahoma and know people who went there) that ORU had non-science-credit seminars on creationism. BJU isn't generally ranked on college lists because of its lack of regional accreditation. It is a *serious* problem, even when you don't consider the derision of top-level university programs.

[Kathryn]

That is BS, you honestly don't know what you're talking about. In the past BJU *chose* not to become accredited. Why? They didn't want the influence of outside agencies on their ideas. Okay, fine. But, that puts you in with the unaccredited diploma mill schools. Other schools often *will not* accept credits from schools without regional accreditation. That means that you can't do two years and transfer your credits to Clemson, the way that you *could* if you attended Oklahoma Baptist University and wanted to transfer to the University of Oklahoma.

 

The same is true if you wanted to attend certain graduate schools. The same would be true if you were applying for a job that required a degree from a regionally accredited school. It has *no freaking thing* to do with their religious beliefs. None. Zero. Zilch. Even Liberty University and Oral Roberts University have regional accreditation. I know in the past (because I'm from Oklahoma and know people who went there) that ORU had non-science-credit seminars on creationism. BJU isn't generally ranked on college lists because of its lack of regional accreditation. It is a *serious* problem, even when you don't consider the derision of top-level university programs.

 

Exactly. The argument that this is some atheist plot against Christians is ridiculous.

[Mrs Mungo]

No, Tara, this is what she said:

 

DH is on a committee to review medical students applications. He's an atheist but many of his coworkers are Catholic, Baptist, whatever.

 

EVERYONE looked at the BJU on this person's application and laughed. No one even bothered opening it. It went into the discard pile.

 

I'm sure BJU has graduated more than one intelligent person in its history. But I am more sure that a degree from BJU was more of a hindrance in professional circles.

 

No mention about it being because they were unaccredited. Clearly, just the name BJU invoked laughter and it "went to the discard pile." She implied anyone going to BJU must be stupid.

 

Don't subscribe words to me that I didn't utter. I never said anything about what BJU does or doesn't do, I am talking about what another poster's husband and co-workers did. I don't believe "two wrongs make a right." I do know BJU is a private school and they can discriminate. If the other poster's husband was at a public university, he committed discrimination based on religion. My blood is not boiling, it was another poster that said that. I don't care about it specifically, but I do find double standards and hypocrisy around here pretty annoying. I have no interest in BJU, my children won't attend BJU, so none of this personally matters to me.

 

I understand that private organizations have this right. Unless I missed it, I didn't see that the poster whose husband committed discrimination against a student, was part of a private institution. If he was, fine, discriminate away, but if it was a public university then what happened should be unacceptable.

 

Where in the heck does it say in that post:

 

1. That they laughed due to the religious beliefs held by BJU

 

OR

 

2. That is was a public university?

 

Neither of these are stated. You are making assumptions *on both counts*. It is *perfectly* acceptable to toss away an application from a student who attended an unaccredited university because it is considered substandard! She even said that many of her dh's co-workers *are* religious!

Edited April 8, 2012 by Mrs Mungo

[Oak Knoll Mom]

BJU believes that non-Baptist Christians aren't smart enough to understand the True Word of God, therefore they too discriminate on the basis of religion.

 

Bob Jones isn't a Baptist school. In fact, Bob Jones, Sr. was a Methodist. When I was in high school, the Jones' were members of a Bible church.

[ssavings]

That is BS, you honestly don't know what you're talking about. In the past BJU *chose* not to become accredited. Why? They didn't want the influence of outside agencies on their ideas. Okay, fine. But, that puts you in with the unaccredited diploma mill schools. Other schools often *will not* accept credits from schools without regional accreditation. That means that you can't do two years and transfer your credits to Clemson, the way that you *could* if you attended Oklahoma Baptist University and wanted to transfer to the University of Oklahoma.

 

The same is true if you wanted to attend certain graduate schools. The same would be true if you were applying for a job that required a degree from a regionally accredited school. It has *no freaking thing* to do with their religious beliefs. None. Zero. Zilch. Even Liberty University and Oral Roberts University have regional accreditation. I know in the past (because I'm from Oklahoma and know people who went there) that ORU had non-science-credit seminars on creationism. BJU isn't generally ranked on college lists because of its lack of regional accreditation. It is a *serious* problem, even when you don't consider the derision of top-level university programs.

 

:iagree:

 

Yes. Exactly. Even the government department my dad works for cannot, by policy, hire a graduate of an unaccredited school. What the religious beliefs of the school are don't matter. The lack of regional accreditation is an absolute bar to being hired in this specific department. I am sure the same applies for many other jobs, grad schools, etc.

[Oak Knoll Mom]

That means that you can't do two years and transfer your credits to Clemson, the way that you *could* if you attended Oklahoma Baptist University and wanted to transfer to the University of Oklahoma.

 

Clemson accepts BJU transfer students. (At least they did in the 90s when I was a Clemson student and several friends from high school started out at BJU and transferred to Clemson.)

[Danestress]

Clemson accepts BJU transfer students. (At least they did in the 90s when I was a Clemson student and several friends from high school started out at BJU and transferred to Clemson.)

 

whether they accept the student as a transfer is different from whether they will give credit for every course. Not saying whether they do or not - just pointing out the difference.

[Mrs Mungo]

Clemson accepts BJU transfer students. (At least they did in the 90s when I was a Clemson student and several friends from high school started out at BJU and transferred to Clemson.)

 

To clarify: the problems with a lack of accreditation became severely magnified around 2005-ish when diploma-mills became such a problem. That is when lists of accredited universities started to be published. That is when non-accredited universities were left out of college rankings. I don't know if Clemson still accepts BJU credits; my point was that many schools don't, and I was giving random examples.

[Mrs Mungo]

whether they accept the student as a transfer is different from whether they will give credit for every course. Not saying whether they do or not - just pointing out the difference.

 

This is true too. My dh attended a private college for his first 2 years of college and not all of his credits transferred (eta: he received elective credit, but not say, credit for a lab science). He had to re-do several classes when he transferred.

Edited April 8, 2012 by Mrs Mungo

[Danestress]

Good grief. Why do I care, lol? But I looked it up and Clemson actually has a date base you can access on which classes it will give credit for from various other schools. You can see it here http://virtual.clemson.edu/groups/tcel/SC1.HTM#003421

 

It does give credit for some BJU classes. Others are counted as "elective" when you transfer, and others are not given any credit. I'm sure this is true of other colleges and not just BJU, but I think it's really normal for students transferring from one college to another to have to check out how much credit they will take with them.

[Halftime Hope]

I am a christian, but this is what I was concerned about. I would love to find a christian college that had a good reputation with not only christians but with the secular world as well. I had no idea BJU had/has so many issues. Thanks everyone!

 

Ya know, Michelle, that is such a hard question. I'm not sure you can have a Christian school that doesn't get fun poked at it.

 

Wheaton has a great academic reputation, and heaven knows that the motto "for Christ and His kingdom" is borne out by the sheer number of grads serving in ministry fields full-time, bi-vocationally, and simply as people with a servant's heart, but I still heard all kinds of anti-Wheaton-student snark when I worked as an undergrad at the local hospital near there. I didn't let it bother me, nor did I think it was personal. I really think that a certain percentage of people are wired to see what looks like target, and they are complusive about taking a shot; some other people just have to rub the shiny spot on a bronze statue. ;)

 

Locally, I hear the same kind of snark about SMU and Baylor. Both are decent Christian schools, although quite different from one another.

 

I would really have loved for one of my kids to go to Messiah College in PA. It, too, is a great school, with a great reputation for a wholistic view of personhood...quite the opposite of some Christian schools in which one must overcome x, y, or z to be given a fair shake.

[deacongirl]

Ya know, Michelle, that is such a hard question. I'm not sure you can have a Christian school that doesn't get fun poked at it.

 

Wheaton has a great academic reputation, and heaven knows that the motto "for Christ and His kingdom" is borne out by the sheer number of grads serving in ministry fields full-time, bi-vocationally, and simply as people with a servant's heart, but I still heard all kinds of anti-Wheaton-student snark when I worked as an undergrad at the local hospital near there. I didn't let it bother me, nor did I think it was personal. I really think that a certain percentage of people are wired to see what looks like target, and they are complusive about taking a shot; some other people just have to rub the shiny spot on a bronze statue. ;)

 

Locally, I hear the same kind of snark about SMU and Baylor. Both are decent Christian schools, although quite different from one another.

 

I would really have loved for one of my kids to go to Messiah College in PA. It, too, is a great school, with a great reputation for a wholistic view of personhood...quite the opposite of some Christian schools in which one must overcome x, y, or z to be given a fair shake.

 

SMU and Baylor have excellent academic reputations nationally. BJU does not.

[kalanamak]

Ya know, Michelle, that is such a hard question. I'm not sure you can have a Christian school that doesn't get fun poked at it.

 

 

 

I must run in different circles. Pacific Lutheran is highly regarded around here. Where I grew up there were many Christian schools, and I don't remember one comment. Seattle U was advertising on the radio today and proclaiming its Jesuit tradition.

 

Everywhere I've lived people have sent their kids to the Catholic HS for a better education. *The* ultra ritz school near me has a chapel and a chaplain, and they have church for all the students. Non-believer children go there and sit through church.

 

What these schools have in common are academics. I don't know the schools you folks are bantering about, but if their focus is religion and not academics, I could see this drawing the knit brow here and there.

 

Now then, if a local school had the kids door to dooring to "share", I might be reduced to an unpleasant thought about them (I dislike getting these visits). But as far as "making fun of", etc, the world I inhabit is full of people too busy to comment. We are more frustrated by people whose communication skills are lacking. They get a comment, but it is about them, not the school they went to.(E.g. "Can you believe X's emails? They are incoherent. What was that abbreviation he used? Can you believe he actually has a master's degree?")

[Haiku]

I think this whole discussion about BJU being discriminated against because they are religious is made moot by these two quotes from Notre Dame's website:

 

Notre Dame is one of the few universities to regularly rank in the top 25 in the U.S. News & World Report survey of America's best colleges.

 

and

 

It [the school] is dedicated to religious belief no less than scientific knowledge. It has always stood for values in a world of facts.

 

If your school is not accredited, academia will not take it seriously, and neither will many employers. End of story.

 

Tara

[creekland]

Public universities can and do "discriminate" against low-quality educational institutions. It has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with academics. As others have said many times, there are plenty of religious colleges that are not automatically dismissed due to such a discriminator.

 

When it comes to med school, public med schools are MORE likely just to use the MCAT and GPA as major factors. Undergrad institution name is very negligible. The reason? To avoid the potential for discrimination. Private med schools can be more flexible about which schools they prefer.

 

Just saying what's come out of some of my recent med school research - from admissions. ;)

 

I still suspect non regionally accredited colleges would have more issues for reasons already stated.

[Halftime Hope]

I must run in different circles. Pacific Lutheran is highly regarded around here. Where I grew up there were many Christian schools, and I don't remember one comment. Seattle U was advertising on the radio today and proclaiming its Jesuit tradition.

 

Everywhere I've lived people have sent their kids to the Catholic HS for a better education. *The* ultra ritz school near me has a chapel and a chaplain, and they have church for all the students. Non-believer children go there and sit through church.

 

What these schools have in common are academics. I don't know the schools you folks are bantering about, but if their focus is religion and not academics, I could see this drawing the knit brow here and there. I agree, but the three schools I mentioned are well-regarded in academic circles.

 

Now then, if a local school had the kids door to dooring to "share", I might be reduced to an unpleasant thought about them (I dislike getting these visits). But as far as "making fun of", etc, the world I inhabit is full of people too busy to comment. We are more frustrated by people whose communication skills are lacking. They get a comment, but it is about them, not the school they went to.(E.g. "Can you believe X's emails? They are incoherent. What was that abbreviation he used? Can you believe he actually has a master's degree?")

 

Kalanamak, Wheaton (IL) is an academically rigorous, accredited school. Baylor and SMU are no slouches either. The comments I've heard about Baylor and SMU have been on local media, and SMU's ties to their denomination are pretty loose and mostly historical rather than close in practice. So it surprised me to hear several comments in the same vein, as I don't consider SMU to be known for its religious life, more for its southern affluent party life, if not for its academics.

 

I would grant you that hearing comments on TV and radio may be a "consider the source" thing--people who are being paid to yap, and often to yap controversially.

[kalanamak]

 

I would grant you that hearing comments on TV and radio may be a "consider the source" thing--people who are being paid to yap, and often to yap controversially.

 

Ah. I don't watch TV. I listen to classical radio. Yes, I think such places YAP to make controversy and news. I loathe "talk radio". Loud braying meant to make people feel outraged and then vindicated.

 

I' was talking about the general populous. I work with a couple thousand people, and move from place to place there, so every day I come into contact with a *wide* variety of people. The private and religious schools in my area are the places people "hope their kids get to go to", whether the speakers are religious or not.

[Halftime Hope]

SMU and Baylor have excellent academic reputations nationally. BJU does not.

 

I agree with your point. Mine was that even with their academic standing, people still poke fun at Baylor and SMU, and even though I didn't say it, it has been very public, not just person to person comments. (My point wasn't about BJU.)

 

Poking fun doesn't really bother me, I'm just saying it can go with the territory. And I know that non-religious schools get their share of razzing for many reasons as well; I'm not making some kind of a "martyr" obeservation.

[stripe]

Ya know, Michelle, that is such a hard question. I'm not sure you can have a Christian school that doesn't get fun poked at it.

 

 

I know dozens of Christian schools that are not made fun of, at least not be because they are religious. I am a graduate of a Catholic college. There was zero religion in science including classes taught by priests and nuns. There was zero indoctrination of the Catholic viewpoint, although there was an articulation of it; one was allowed to discuss it and disagree with it without academic retribution. There were many Catholic students, as well as members of other religious groups. There was no hatred advanced toward non-Catholics. There was a great emphasis on serving God and other people. All in all, a very healthy attitude towards religion and academic inquiry, not plugging one's ears to avoid being offended, which I think is what can trouble some people about some religious institutions.

[Halftime Hope]

Ah. I don't watch TV. I listen to classical radio. Yes, I think such places YAP to make controversy and news. I loathe "talk radio". Loud braying meant to make people feel outraged and then vindicated.

 

I' was talking about the general populous. I work with a couple thousand people, and move from place to place there, so every day I come into contact with a *wide* variety of people. The private and religious schools in my area are the places people "hope their kids get to go to", whether the speakers are religious or not.

 

About TV, me either, anymore--I'm a books-on-CD listener in the kitchen and car. I had to hunt up the clicker to watch our local coverage when we had tornados close by last week! However, I logged many hours of late night news while I had nurslings, when I was in "absorption mode" having just moved here.

 

 

 

Must go back to studying...

[Halftime Hope]

I know dozens of Christian schools that are not made fun of, at least not because they are religious. I am a graduate of a Catholic college. There was zero religion in science including classes taught by priests and nuns. There was zero indoctrination of the Catholic viewpoint, although there was an articulation of it; one was allowed to discuss it and disagree with it without academic retribution. There were many Catholic students, as well as members of other religious groups. There was no hatred advanced toward non-Catholics. There was a great emphasis on serving God and other people. All in all, a very healthy attitude towards religion and academic inquiry, not plugging one's ears to avoid being offended, which I think is what can trouble some people about some religious institutions.

 

I generalized my experience to apply broadly. As are you.

 

The three academically reputable schools I mentioned have had people poke fun (in two cases on the airwaves, so very publicly) at them not because of their academic reputation but because they were schools with religious ties. It's not of much consequence, because their academic reputation isn't dependent on comedic commentary.

 

I think it could be fairly said that all three that I mentioned have "healthy attitude towards religion and academic inquiry." (Clearly BJU does not have that same openess, so I'm not even discussing them, nor was I in my original post.)

 

You may be surprised to find that about Baylor, but I do have multiple first-hand reports that it isn't closed to broad inquiry, contrary to what some would think given the denominational ties. (That was important to us as Baylor would have been a natural for dd: she had to do due diligence on the issue of women in ministry; if she pursues chaplaincy, she will be ordained.)

 

I'm comfortable standing on my original thought, that when someone is looking for a laugh, they know where to find one, whether it is warranted or not.

[Marylou]

I would really have loved for one of my kids to go to Messiah College in PA. It, too, is a great school, with a great reputation for a wholistic view of personhood...quite the opposite of some Christian schools in which one must overcome x, y, or z to be given a fair shake.

 

Peter Enns' alma mater :001_smile: .

Edited April 10, 2012 by dmmosher

[stripe]

I'm comfortable standing on my original thought, that when someone is looking for a laugh, they know where to find one, whether it is warranted or not.

I hardly think religious schools are the only ones getting laughs. How about party schools?

 

The issue I think people have with religious schools (perhaps the ones garnering all the laughs?) are that some of them appear to try to stifle thought and hide the fact that not everyone agrees with them, or brand them as sinful/awful/utterly misguided. It is just sort of laughable to some people that this passes for deep thought.

Edited April 10, 2012 by stripe

[jenni33]

I am a christian, but this is what I was concerned about. I would love to find a christian college that had a good reputation with not only christians but with the secular world as well. I had no idea BJU had/has so many issues. Thanks everyone!

 

Try looking into these schools:

Kentucky Christian University

Cincinnati Christian University

Lincoln Christian University

Ozark Christian College

Spring Arbor University

Liberty University

Wheaton College

Grove City College

 

That should be a good start!

[wapiti]

I know dozens of Christian schools that are not made fun of, at least not be because they are religious. I am a graduate of a Catholic college. There was zero religion in science including classes taught by priests and nuns. There was zero indoctrination of the Catholic viewpoint, although there was an articulation of it; one was allowed to discuss it and disagree with it without academic retribution. There were many Catholic students, as well as members of other religious groups. There was no hatred advanced toward non-Catholics. There was a great emphasis on serving God and other people. All in all, a very healthy attitude towards religion and academic inquiry, not plugging one's ears to avoid being offended, which I think is what can trouble some people about some religious institutions.

 

Same experience here. I attended a Catholic university that also happens to be a selective school. No one makes fun of the religiosity of the school, and the school is well-respected, a positive addition to one's resume.

 

This begs the question, when one is looking for a "Christian" school, what does that mean to you (the general "you", or the OP)? What, specifically, about the school culture is what would attract you? What about both religious and academic debate - would you seek more or less of those? Are Catholic schools not an option for religious reasons (there are a number that are well-regarded)? (These questions are for you to ask yourself personally)

[stripe]

I am a christian, but this is what I was concerned about. I would love to find a christian college that had a good reputation with not only christians but with the secular world as well.

 

Loyola Marymount, Azusa Pacific, Gonzaga, and Notre Dame (all Catholic?) seem more reputable to me than colleges that refuse to allow federal financial aid because of opposition to Title IX or those the American Association of University Professors has cited as having a lack of academic freedom, but I suspect to the affected institutions, this is a badge of pride.

[pfamilygal]

It is a bastion of hate and ignorance.

[Jennifer3141]

I know dozens of Christian schools that are not made fun of, at least not be because they are religious. I am a graduate of a Catholic college. There was zero religion in science including classes taught by priests and nuns. There was zero indoctrination of the Catholic viewpoint, although there was an articulation of it; one was allowed to discuss it and disagree with it without academic retribution. There were many Catholic students, as well as members of other religious groups. There was no hatred advanced toward non-Catholics. There was a great emphasis on serving God and other people. All in all, a very healthy attitude towards religion and academic inquiry, not plugging one's ears to avoid being offended, which I think is what can trouble some people about some religious institutions.

:iagree: This. I actually went to a Christian college - Hope College way back when I was Catholic. Hope has a very academic reputation and although many of my professors were active in their faiths, that wasn't emphasized except for the classes about comparitive religions. Several professors actually helped me on my way to a comfortable atheism.

 

You can get an excellent education at many Christian/Catholic institutions in America. But you cannot get that kind of education at an academic institution that eschews real science and/or promotes hatred and bigotry.

 

If you want to believe the earth is 100 years old and knights battled dinosaurs and that black people are dirty and shouldn't mate with white people go for it. But then you have narrowed your worldview enough that other people with broader world viewpoints WILL judge you and your education.

 

You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

[Sneezyone]

Loyola Marymount, Azusa Pacific, Gonzaga, and Notre Dame (all Catholic?) seem more reputable to me than colleges that refuse to allow federal financial aid because of opposition to Title IX or those the American Association of University Professors has cited as having a lack of academic freedom, but I suspect to the affected institutions, this is a badge of pride.

 

Awesome suggestions. My cousin is a Gonzaga alum and managed to maintain his conservative worldview while receiving a top notch education. :lol: Growing up in SoCal I also considered Loyola Marymount and Azusa Pacific. Lovely campuses! Georgetown in DC is also well-respected.

[Halftime Hope]

It is just sort of laughable to some people that this passes for deep thought.

 

Honestly trying to understand, not trying to argue with you.

 

Did anything I say equate the two (stifling = deep thought)? or are certain schools making that claim? (If so, I'd like to see that.)

 

or maybe you are saying that they should be aspiring to deep thought but in reality spend more time on stifling anything outside narrow parameters and are, therefore, laughable because they are missing their calling?

 

I'm interested in understanding what you mean, and then I'll probably call this a day.

[ocelotmom]

Our son is attending BJU for nursing. Out of all the South Carolina nursing programs, Christian schools, state schools, tech schools, etc., BJU's pass rate on their graduate nursing exams is 100%. No other SC school has that distinction. That's why he picked BJU. Their graduates have the best reputation in the state.

 

While I can't argue for or against BJU's nursing program... a 100% NCLEX pass rate is a good indicator, but by no means a hard and fast indicator of program quality. 100% pass rate most often means that students who aren't virtually guaranteed to pass don't graduate the program. Which certainly isn't a bad thing, but doesn't show the whole picture. A program could be questionable quality with rigorous testing out of proportion to the teaching and a high attrition rate. It could do a lot of teaching to the test without an equally strong clinical component.

 

Also, considering that nursing programs are generally pretty small, a pass rate in the 90%+ range often means that 1 person didn't pass.

 

(A pass rate below 90% would make me a bit hesitant about the program, though.)

[AvasMom]

While I can't argue for or against BJU's nursing program... a 100% NCLEX pass rate is a good indicator, but by no means a hard and fast indicator of program quality. 100% pass rate most often means that students who aren't virtually guaranteed to pass don't graduate the program. Which certainly isn't a bad thing, but doesn't show the whole picture. A program could be questionable quality with rigorous testing out of proportion to the teaching and a high attrition rate. It could do a lot of teaching to the test without an equally strong clinical component.

 

Also, considering that nursing programs are generally pretty small, a pass rate in the 90%+ range often means that 1 person didn't pass.

 

(A pass rate below 90% would make me a bit hesitant about the program, though.)

 

That and the fact that NCLEX prep is entirely different from prep for actual nursing practice. Most homeschoolers aren't fans of teaching to the test so it surprises me that it would be a factor in the college search.

[pfamilygal]

That and the fact that NCLEX prep is entirely different from prep for actual nursing practice. Most homeschoolers aren't fans of teaching to the test so it surprises me that it would be a factor in the college search.

 

 

But a program that doesn't prep students for the NCLEX will not prepare them to be nurses either, as they cannot practice without passing.

[AvasMom]

But a program that doesn't prep students for the NCLEX will not prepare them to be nurses either, as they cannot practice without passing.

 

Of course ;) but I'm saying looking just or even primarily at pass rates doesn't give you the best picture. A license doesn't do you much good if it ends up suspended because you weren't taught good nursing practice. Like a pp said, I would look for a high pass rate but also look at where their grads are hired and the reputation of the school in general.

 

Now I'm going to look up my alma mater's pass rate and see if I need to come back and edit my post or not. Lol! :tongue_smilie: J/K!!!

[Butter]

While I can't argue for or against BJU's nursing program... a 100% NCLEX pass rate is a good indicator, but by no means a hard and fast indicator of program quality. 100% pass rate most often means that students who aren't virtually guaranteed to pass don't graduate the program. Which certainly isn't a bad thing, but doesn't show the whole picture. A program could be questionable quality with rigorous testing out of proportion to the teaching and a high attrition rate. It could do a lot of teaching to the test without an equally strong clinical component.

 

That's a good point. The program I graduated from had a 100% pass rate (except for the class that graduated the year before I entered the clinical phase - one student failed the NCLEX the first time she took it... ironically her year's valedictorian). However, in order to stay in the program we needed to maintain a C average which meant 75% or higher on the nursing program's grading scale. Many students dropped out. Many more were kicked out. We started with 80 students. At graduation there were 29 of us. We all passed the NCLEX the first try and the school could continue boasting of their 100% pass rate. But that doesn't tell the whole story of the 51 students we "lost."

 

FWIW, my program was very honest that they'd do a lot of teaching to the test (the NCLEX). The thing is, you don't see everything in clinicals that you'll see on the NCLEX. It was strong for clinicals, too, though. We did 16-24 hours a week for 38 weeks over two years prior to graduating. It's highly rated overall and placement into good jobs is common (including to hospitals in DC like Childrens and Washington Hospital Center). I annoyed them because I never intended to actually work as a nurse. I just got my degree and license to pass the time before having kids (yeah, I'm weird).

Edited April 10, 2012 by Butter

[DawnM]

APU has Free Methodist roots although they now associate with evangelical Protestantism without the strong Free Methodist affiliation. It is not Catholic.

 

However, that doesn't mean any of them are not academic, but I thought I would point out that the other two are Catholic but APU isn't. One of my grad degrees is from APU.

 

Dawn

 

Loyola Marymount, Azusa Pacific, Gonzaga, and Notre Dame (all Catholic?) seem more reputable to me than colleges that refuse to allow federal financial aid because of opposition to Title IX or those the American Association of University Professors has cited as having a lack of academic freedom, but I suspect to the affected institutions, this is a badge of pride.