Am I being irresponsible??

[katilac]

We walked away from a lot of money and opportunity to live near my family, so I'm very biased in that direction. dh's family is all over the place, so we didn't have to consider that aspect, and he knew when he married me that we were going to wind up "back home." Edited to add that all of our moves were in the U.S.

 

For me, visiting did not cut it. I wanted my kids to grow up near family, and we are lucky enough to have lots of extended family as well. I wanted the particular sense of place (we live near New Orleans), and I wanted day-to-day interactions with family. I wanted them to sleep at Grandma's house and make a fuss over every new baby.

 

I know people say "oh, just visit back and forth, etc" but that wasn't enough for me. Most times, I think it works with those who are already close, but not for the new generation. My dh's family moved far away, and they (his parents) stayed very close with everyone, but my dh never had strong ties to his aunts, uncles, or cousins. They weren't an integral part of his life; they were the people he saw when visiting grandma. He doesn't have any desire to visit there now that he's grown, b/c he really doesn't know these people, kwim? And some people are fine with that, but it isn't what I wanted.

 

Only you can run the numbers and see if the budget will actually work. The good thing is that you have family there, so they can give you a very realistic idea. If this job doesn't work out, is there a chance of another? If he does take this job, might it lead to something further?

 

Now, we made the move before kids. How do your kids feel about it? How old are they?

[dangermom]

Especially worried about the cost of a house- the hidden costs that sneak up on you.

 

:grouphug::grouphug:

 

Here's an example of those costs. We've had a very tight budget for the past few years, as I mentioned, so things have piled up a bit:

 

half the back fence needs replacing ($1000)

master bathroom needs new floor, will soon need new counter/cabinet

kids' bathroom toilet clogs way too often, probably needs some help

everything needs painting

the carpet is 15 years old and looks awful (it's light colored)

the wood floor has some worrying spots

kitchen sink needs replacing

after the big storm last fall, most of our neighbors are replacing their roofs out of necessity. I'm scared to think about it :svengo:

 

I cannot afford to do anything about any of this. Don't forget the car problems--I don't plan to have AC in my car this summer.

 

Don't underestimate how much it costs to live here and to own a home.

[TammyinTN]

I would stay put and visit family several times a year. Taking a 75% pay cut would definitely be the deciding factor for me.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Oh my goodness. I just got home to see that I have six pages of responses. I am definitely feeling the Hive Love!

 

I've read through all of them and I SO APPRECIATE the honest and perspective. I will let you all know what we end up deciding.

[sheryl]

Looking for honest advice.

 

I hate to post so much personal info, but I am needing some perspective. I may delete later.

 

We live in Switzerland (I am American, husband is Swiss) and have 3 kids. Homeschooling is legal in our "state". We have a nice life, I am happy here, but we have zero family. We see my family about three times a year- incredibly open, supportive, wonderful people. They live in California. We will never be able to afford a house here, so we'll always be apartment dwellers.

 

My husband and I started looking for an opportunity to move to California. A year ago, he got his green card, and we've been plugging away at job hunting since then.

 

He has an opportunity now to go interview for a job that previously he said would be fine, but he now is saying is risky because of the salary.

 

If we were to move, we would go from doing pretty much whatever we want, when we want to being on a strict budget. But we would be much closer to family (aka free babysitters and lots of affection for the kids) and we'd be able to own a house with a yard and a garden (my dream).

 

I don't understand this...explain. "doing whatever and when"????????

Strict budget....??? You mentioned you can not afford a home in Sw...that would also make for a tight budget, right? Do people there have a hard time financially when owning a home?

 

We would take a pay cut of literally 75%. We would make more in Switzerland on welfare if he were to lose his current job than he would make in CA working full time.

 

Perhaps it depends on the line of work your dh is in. I can't imagine there are not good and not so good jobs in both countries.

 

US higher education is incredibly expensive. Swiss higher education is practically free.

 

When he told me he wanted to reconsider the move, after a year of me allowing myself to "hope" to be close to my family again, I just broke down. I love it here, but I had not realized how much I miss my family, my culture, my country.

 

12 hours later, I feel more at peace with things, but still can't even really think about it without crying.

 

I'm trying to figure out if this was all totally unreasonable of me. Is being close to family worth such a drastic financial change? Is being able to have our own house worth losing a lot of economic freedom that we currently have?

 

Is it better for the kids to be closer to the only family they have, to live in their own space, and to have a culture that at least has heard of homeschooling, or is it better to have free university and universal health care?

 

I am just so upset about all this, and that this all got dumped 3 days before he's supposed to fly out for an interview.

 

Thoughts?

 

I'd ask CA people.....while it's true CA as a whole is expensive, there must be pockets of less expensive cities in which to reside. Perhaps it's saving your money now and putting a larger down pay't on a house in CA. Also, have you considered a neigboring state that would be less expensive and still within a day's drive? That is manageable...we've been doing this for 30 years. Also, both parties can meet half way and share the distance even though you'd probably get a hotel room for at least one night - short visit.

 

Education from top notch colleges are expensive and will be off of our list. However, our dd may attend a little community college or whatnot. We'll definately need to seek out grants, scholarships, etc. My nephew just earned his masters on-line, so that may be a possibility.

 

Universal health care is a can of worms that I'm not going to touch! :D

 

It does sound like a very real opportunity, but it may require more creative planning. Probe, ask questions of each other and other people. Is your dh set in his profession or is there flexibility with type of work. That may dictate where you would move within the US. Certain questions need to be answered and reanswered from every angle to determine if this will work or not.

 

I feel for you. I was always and still am 9 hours away from closest extended family. I thought I had it difficult....you are much further away. I see it 2 ways. Your "home" is your dh and dc, but also you have a desire to be closer to extended family. If they are loving and supportive, I can't see any reason why it would be negative to move.

 

Keep us posted.

[mumto2]

I already responded once but I was reading the thread. We live in the UK and are just finishing our annual 2 month US trip. This one has cost a fortune. Petrol and food. We can't believe how much its costing. Everything seems more expensive than before. Your budget could be way off! We have cut our driving way back and are still spending more than UK-usually its equal. I really miss my fuel efficient car. A lot can be said for a manual transmission!

:grouphug:

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

OP here, wanted to clarify a few things:

 

My brother and his wife and three kids live on the salary in question- that's how I know it's "do-able" with budgeting. (the job comes with health insurance. It's in the case of a job loss that health ins becomes an nissue)

 

A house in Switzerland which meets requirements for disatence to amenities, etc, can cost well over 1 million dollars. In addition, Swiss house loans require down payments of 25%.

 

When I say we could move to the US and be on a strict budget but also own a house, it is because we have savings that would allow for either a cash buy of an average priced house, or a large downpayment to make for reasonable monthly payments, leaving a cash emergency fund. So while month to month things would be tight, a broken water heater would not require maxing out a credit card.

 

I'm not trying to sway the tide in my direction, I realize this isn't a vote, LOL. Just wanted to clarify!

[FaithManor]

Would it be possible for you and your children to spend summers or an extended vacation during the winter, such as January and February with family and then homeschool for June and July in Switzerland to make up for it? The children could make some fantastic memories with grandparents if you could plan to be there for a long time. I know it can be hard to be away from hubby for two months, but it might be the best of both worlds.

 

California is having some very rocky economic times. If I were you, I wouldn't leave Switzerland if your situation there is solid.

 

Faith

[Harriet Vane]

Would it be possible for you and your children to spend summers or an extended vacation during the winter, such as January and February with family and then homeschool for June and July in Switzerland to make up for it? The children could make some fantastic memories with grandparents if you could plan to be there for a long time. I know it can be hard to be away from hubby for two months, but it might be the best of both worlds.

 

California is having some very rocky economic times. If I were you, I wouldn't leave Switzerland if your situation there is solid.

 

Faith

:iagree:

[2squared]

We left the military to move near dh's family. That choice came with a significant paycut, although not 75%. If I could make the choice again, I wouldn't choose the paycut. It has been very, very difficult on our marriage and my overall happiness. That might sound shallow, but now I can't afford to pay for things which made my life easier and more interesting. Visiting museums or musicals? Nope. Not any more. Taking vacations? Nope. Not any more. Buying convenience foods when life gets hectic? Nope. Not any more.

 

Now I worry about every.little.expense. It is exhausting. Issues which we used to cash flow and not think about are now mountains that we struggle to climb. Seeing our savings dwindle is frightening.

[sewingmama]

We see my family about three times a year

 

I think you are very lucky to have this. DH's family is in Canada and mine is in the US. In the past 10 years we have seen his parents once (when my DD was born) and mine 3x (when each of my kids was born). I would give anything to see them 3x per year :D

 

I understand about wanting to own a house - we can never afford to buy in Australia either -houses are not quite a million dollars but they are not affordable for the average wage earner either. So DH wants to move back to Canada where he "thinks" we can afford a house. I agree with PP that your home country will never be the same after living away for so many years - I check the prices in Canada all the time -whilst they are somewhat cheaper then here I can tell DH has romanticised a lot of it.

 

I also can't stand the cold or snow - last time I lived in Canada I got SAD - Aussies are not meant to live in dark houses for long periods of time - we get so much sunshine here I don't think our Vit D makers even work themselves anymore :D

 

I agree with PP that although it may seem great to live around family all the time once the novelty has worn off it might not turn out to be what you thought it would. DH and I lived in Korea for a year and then when we moved back to Canada his family basically ignored us after the initial reunion.

 

DH keeps saying it will be great to have all the babysitting -but the truth is -his parents are old and in poor health -they could not cope with our young, active and not always obedient kids. Even my mum who works in a daycare and is much younger (50's active and healthy) has trouble handling them. His siblings are scattered - his brother has little family contact - one sister is single and childless and has her own life and doesn't really know what to do with kids and the other is single with 9yo and is busy with school and a job. None of them can find the time to help care for DH's grandparents who are both still alive but in need of a lot of assistance so when will these people babysit for us? (and would I even want them to - but that's another story based on children with allergies and grandparents who say "Oh but a little won't hurt them -grandparents are supposed to spoil their grandkids :glare:) and then there is the tension family can create in a marriage - (DH always takes their side and if they go running to him complaining about me placing restrictions on the kids or something we end up fighting).

 

Just things to consider anyhow.

Edited March 20, 2012 by sewingmama

[katilac]

OP here, wanted to clarify a few things:

 

My brother and his wife and three kids live on the salary in question- that's how I know it's "do-able" with budgeting. (the job comes with health insurance. It's in the case of a job loss that health ins becomes an nissue)

 

A house in Switzerland which meets requirements for disatence to amenities, etc, can cost well over 1 million dollars. In addition, Swiss house loans require down payments of 25%.

 

When I say we could move to the US and be on a strict budget but also own a house, it is because we have savings that would allow for either a cash buy of an average priced house, or a large downpayment to make for reasonable monthly payments, leaving a cash emergency fund. So while month to month things would be tight, a broken water heater would not require maxing out a credit card.

 

I'm not trying to sway the tide in my direction, I realize this isn't a vote, LOL. Just wanted to clarify!

 

As you can tell from my prior post, I'm not completely about the practical anyway, but having savings certainly makes a move and pay cut more do-able. If possible, I'd try not to buy a house right away, but rent somewhere cheap while you and dh get your feet under you (figure out what area you want to live, if he is likely to stay at that job, etc). I don't guess you're lucky enough to have parents with a really, really big house? :D

[Laura Corin]

We lived in Asia for many years. Husband is American and I'm English. There is nowhere that is home to both of us. Each of us has one living parent.

 

We moved to Scotland because it was the right job, location, lifestyle, future for the whole family. Relative proximity (seven hour train ride) to my mother is good, but it wasn't the main reason. In your shoes, I would use some of the Swiss income to take long trips to be near family in the US: you have that flexibility if you are home educating.

 

Laura

[Aelwydd]

That's a tough place to be in, and one I've experienced myself. While I haven't lived in a different country from the rest of my family, I've lived in NC alone, while my mom's family, and my mom, dad and siblings lived 2000 miles away in CA. Then, I ended up following them out there for a time so I could be close to relatives. Later on, I lived in PA for several years, before we moved here to Texas.

 

So, my dh and I have both lived in several regions of the US, both close and far away from family. Part of the reason for why we're in TX is so my ds could get to know my side of the family before we move out of the US permanently. There are many times when I long to go back to NC or VA, two places I spent a lot of time while growing up, because it feels like "home" to me. But the thing is, when I go back, it's never the same. And some day, when I come back here to visit, it'll be different, too. My moves have taught me that being home sick is inevitable, but the best way to cope is to focus on the positives of where I am, and to remember the reasons I moved away from "home" to begin with.

 

I think that if you end up moving to CA, you may find that it is very different, due to the ravages of the recession. The effects of the economy have not run their full course yet. Education, fuel, housing, health care, food--these are all very likely to continue ratcheting up to compensate for the state's very messy finances.

 

My dh and I have spent years planning and researching different places where we want to settle. Someone else made the excellent point of choosing where you want to retire. If you see yourself being able to retire comfortably in CA, with reasonable expectation of health care and a good pension or retirement fund, then that's a huge plus. If you don't, I would seriously reconsider a move there.

 

Also, if you buy a house, remember that if you change your mind, it may prove difficult to sell your home, especially if the market continues to be sluggish for years down the road. You may end up taking a loss on it.

 

If you are wanting to own something, just to build up equity, you might consider purchasing a condo in CA that you can lease out when you're not there, but still have somewhere to visit.

[catz]

Oh boy, that is SO tough. CA is about as spendy as it gets. I almost moved there several times but when I started doing the math about the parts of CA I would have liked to live it would have a drastic change in how we live our lives.

 

I don't have any brilliant advice, but I'd give yourself a couple of weeks to mull it over. If you're still absolutely heart broken, go from there. I was going to ask you if any other area in the states appeals to you, but seeing family 3X isn't possible for many people in the lower 48. It's hard to beat that.

[Brilliant]

I think that if you end up moving to CA, you may find that it is very different, due to the ravages of the recession. The effects of the economy have not run their full course yet. Education, fuel, housing, health care, food--these are all very likely to continue ratcheting up to compensate for the state's very messy finances.

 

 

I agree. Taxes are ever-increasing, yet higher education in CA is turning into a train-wreck (and don't even get me started on the billions we are about to start spending on a train no one will ride).

 

I'm in CA, and I wouldn't recommend anybody move here now. Unless they want to buy my house which is for sale. :D

[eternalknot]

I don't know that you're being irresponsible, but I think you're trying to make a life-changing decision while emotions are running high. I say this as someone who understands your desire to live near family (because I understand that visiting isn't the same as the day-to-day) so much so that I moved my children nearer to my family and now have a 4+/hour one-way commute to my job in another state. THe commute isn't ideal, but it's worth it to me; I share that just so you know that I truly do understand your feelings about family.

 

Is there a way to put this plan on hold for a spell? Not to write off the idea completely, but to maybe take it off of the table so you two can plan without this specific opportunity looming over your heads. Maybe you can come up with a compromise that's acceptable to you both -- terms, as it were. That you're willing to stay put until a job that's no more than a 50% paycut comes along; or that he's willing to consider a move for a job that's no more than a 50% paycut. Outline terms and conditions upon which you can each feel comfortable discussing a major relocation such as that. In the meanwhile, take advantage of your visits to the States. Even extend them ... test yourself. Spend six months of the year renting near your family to see if residing back here is/isn't what you were expecting it to be.

 

Sure it'll be hard to be apart, but I think it'd be less awful than uprooting everyone and learning it the hard way. Either way, I think it would give you a more accurate outlook on the pros/cons of each situation. Maybe stay a year, and do three visits to Switzerland. Go TDY, see if it's what you remembered and imagined it to be.

 

(((hugs))) It's so hard. I do understand. I've BTDT. I chose my family but finances weren't an issue. That adds extra pressure, doesn't it?

[treestarfae]

OP here, wanted to clarify a few things:

 

My brother and his wife and three kids live on the salary in question- that's how I know it's "do-able" with budgeting. (the job comes with health insurance. It's in the case of a job loss that health ins becomes an nissue)

 

A house in Switzerland which meets requirements for disatence to amenities, etc, can cost well over 1 million dollars. In addition, Swiss house loans require down payments of 25%.

 

When I say we could move to the US and be on a strict budget but also own a house, it is because we have savings that would allow for either a cash buy of an average priced house, or a large downpayment to make for reasonable monthly payments, leaving a cash emergency fund. So while month to month things would be tight, a broken water heater would not require maxing out a credit card.

 

I'm not trying to sway the tide in my direction, I realize this isn't a vote, LOL. Just wanted to clarify!

This doesn't sound that bad. If the switch doesn't emasculate your husband or truly upset him then I would. If you end up staying you should get out more and not isolate yourself. At least live in an area that has activities then visit the US for longer streches.

[Deb in NZ]

Moving close to family doesn't mean you will see more of them. We spent the first 5 years of our marriage as ex-pats. Just before ds#2 was born we moved to NZ so that our dc could live near one side of the family & feel that they belonged in at least one of our cultures. Some of our goals have been met, but others have not. Most of dh's family lived within a 30 minute drive of where we bought our house. the only family we saw regularly was dh's dad as he lived next door. We saw dh's mum every couple of weeks for about 10 minutes when she stopped in on her way to town. Dh's sister & brother we only saw at Christmas, even though they had dc of similar age & they lived in the samw town as us. We spent more quality time with dh's family when we would visit from overseas than we have in the past 14 years living here. Dh's family is close, but it isn't part of their family culture to live in each others' pockets. I know it would have been the same if we had moved to the States instead of NZ. To see family regularly we would have had to live almost next door to them.

 

Some hidden costs of moving that you may not have taken into consideration are the cost of vehicles. If you are living in a modern urban area in Europe, do you need a car to get around? In Calif. you would most likely need 2 cars to live the lifestyle you envision. The costs would include the cost to buy the cars, insurance, registration, warrent of fitness (or similar), fuel, maintainance, carseats for the kids, drivers licences for you & your dh, parking, tires, & possibly more hidden costs.

 

Before you think of moving & taking a 75% pay cut, try to live on that amount where you are. You may find that the reality doesn't live up to what you envision. If you currently see you family 3 times a year, you are really lucky. I have only been back to the States six times in the past 22 years & my parents have only visited us twice. Dh's family never visited us when we lived in the Pacific, but his mother, sister & her family went on holiday to the island where we lived for 3 years the year after we moved to NZ. :001_huh:

 

Is there an American Women's Association in your area? When we lived in Fiji I belonged to the AWA & it was a good support for when I was missing 'home.' There is AWA here in NZ, but it is over 3 hours away, so not practical for me to belong. I do find that many of my friends locally are expat women who have married NZers.

 

Remember your dh is living in his home country, so your dc are Swiss, too. Moving would take them out of one of their home cultures as well. Weigh up what you could possibly gain with the move vs. what you would definitely lose. If we were to consider moving to the States, I would need to see that we would be in a position of big financial gain & that the move would not cost us anything. The economic situation in the States is too scary to consider anything less. Bi-cultural marriages are tough enough without adding in financial stress.

 

JMHO,

[Scuff]

Money isn't everything. It is important and needed to live. But not everything. If you can live on what you make here, you are making a lifestyle choice, not a neccessity choice. Looking back on your life, 30 years from now, which will you wish you had done? Is it more important to you to be close to family, or to have the finantial benefits of Switzerland? What about the other cultural factors? These are things only you can answer.

[goldberry]

When we moved to rural Colorado 6 years ago, DH had a job lined up with acceptable pay and healthcare. He was laid off after 8 months. We are self-employed now and haven't had healthcare coverage that actually pays anything since then.

 

We were determined to make it in Colorado, so we have stuck it out. But it's been hard.

 

The economy is incredibly difficult and unstable right now. You should be prepared for the possibility of unemployment and how that would affect your family. A move is a choice you can't undo very easily.

[Colleen]

Honestly, Monica, it just doesn't sound like this is the right move at the right time. I think you need a much more secure situation awaiting you before you go in for such a significant change. I think in your shoes (and I very well might have been, had we not moved back to the States from Switzerland), I'd consider spending a couple of months over here each year. You have the resources to make that happen. I do understand how difficult it is, choosing between two countries, two cultures.

 

Don't do it. Don't trade Switzerland for the US. In fact, don't trade Switzerland for almost ANY country in the world.

:DTell that to my Swiss husband who wanted to come over here! Crazy, eh?!

 

Just a few notes: we were paying SFr 700/mo. for our Swiss health insurance (for a family of four); when we returned to CA it was $25/mo. (has since increased).

 

P.S. for non-Swiss readers about Swiss healthcare -- yes it's universal, but it ain't cheap....Very old-fashioned system.

 

Wow! I would never describe the Swiss healthcare system as old-fashioned. Far from it. It's one of the most forward-thinking healthcare systems in the world, imo. I agree that it isn't "cheap" (many people mistakenly think it's socialized medicine), but healthcare costs in the U.S. are exorbitant ~ particularly for those of us who are self-employed.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Thank you to everyone for the replies.

 

As someone said, it is very difficult to measure tangibles (salary) against intangibles (family), and the unknowns (future for CA economy, future for European economy) are impossible to calculate.

 

Argh! We are just pulling our hair out over here. The job opportunity is great- interesting job for my husband, we have an "in" with the boss, making it the best chance we'll have in a long time.

 

If everything went well, we could make it in the US, albeit with a big lifestyle change. If something went wrong (job loss) we're better off here, though we could hold it together in CA probably long enough for another job opportunity.

 

*sigh*

 

I told DH last night that I had come to peace with the two options, and that the decision was entirely his to make, as it would be him sacrificing and him bearing the financial burden in either place. His plane ticket to fly out for the interview leaves tomorrow, so he's got another 12 hours or so to decide something...

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Re: Swiss health care- The system is universal in that everyone here is required to obtain insurance for themselves, and the government will pay the bill or part of it for those unable to afford it. However, the insurance companies are still private, and we can choose between HMOs and PPOs like in the US. Some are more expensive than others for various reasons. There's a lot of choice. Employees contribute zero to the insurance costs, it all is paid out of pocket. We pay about 1k per month for our family of 5. We don't have the cheapest one out there, but it is a very good one. Salaries are higher to compensate, and health care costs are significantly lower than in the US. ER wait times are very low and it's easy to see our doctors. Our pediatrician is a ten minute walk from here, and sometimes if the phone is busy all morning but I need to get one of the kids in I will just show up and he'll see us between other patients. Not too shabby! Even things like tylenol and lotion are covered under insurance, as long as they are perscribed by a doctor. Just on a funny side note- birth control is not covered.

 

The US has looked at Swiss health care as a possible model for them, but no real progress has been made on that point, obviously!

[Colleen]

I told DH last night that I had come to peace with the two options, and that the decision was entirely his to make, as it would be him sacrificing and him bearing the financial burden in either place. His plane ticket to fly out for the interview leaves tomorrow, so he's got another 12 hours or so to decide something...

 

I'm sure either way things will work out fine, but in the moment, it's so hard to stand at the "Y" in the road. A few people asked and perhaps you answered, but does your husband not have any family there?

 

The US has looked at Swiss health care as a possible model for them, but no real progress has been made on that point, obviously!

Yes, obviously. I have no hope for any real change here, ever. I much prefer the Swiss approach ~ but then, I'm half German myself (though I only lived there as a very young child) and many systems in Europe are preferable to me.

 

As an aside, are you on Canton Vaud?

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Yes, just outside Lausanne.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Well, I just found an email in my inbox from the flight company confirming the flight cancellation, so I guess that decision got made.

 

Sh.t

 

This sucks.

[Deb in NZ]

:grouphug:

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Sort of strange, but I've realized that I do probably see my family *enough*, though I would really prefer to be able to pop over for lunch on a random day rather than have tp plan out visits and 24 hour travel.

 

I'm actually just as upset at losing my dream of my own place. I've always wanted a house and yard and garden.

 

Not gonna happen.

[Laura in CA]

Well, I just found an email in my inbox from the flight company confirming the flight cancellation, so I guess that decision got made.

 

Sh.t

 

This sucks.

 

I'm so sorry ...

 

 

Wow! I would never describe the Swiss healthcare system as old-fashioned. Far from it. It's one of the most forward-thinking healthcare systems in the world, imo.

 

I'm also sorry to have brought up this side issue ... just sounded like some folks might think universal meant 'free.' If you read my whole post, by 'old-fashioned' I am referring to the (medically dangerous) arrogance of the specialists that we had to deal with. OTOH, I will always remember with great affection our wonderful village GP who made house calls (and led nature walks) -- 'old-fashioned' in the best sense.

 

ETA: Decided I'd better further explain my 'old-fashioned' claim ... other (good) old-fashioned things: staying a *week* in the hospital after a routine delivery, with great lactation support; women of child-bearing age not being allowed to work night shifts (Americans would be like "huh?"); other (bad) old-fashioned things: people with terminal cancer not being informed (the last I heard of this in the U.S. was in the 1970s); doctors taking it personally when you mention getting a second opinion (this is routine, and often even encouraged, in the U.S.); doctors not explaining things thoroughly (a friend of mine about to get cataract surgery asked her doctor a question and he merely replied, "That depends." That's all he said. She was laughing as she told me this ... as if it was typical of the (courtly but man-of-few-words) older Swiss doctor). I dealt with two subspecialties -- certain kind of pediatric subspecialist and certain kind of retinologist -- and the pediatric one was, and I'm being generous here, medically negligent. Our hands were tied because the only other subspecialist our side of the Röstigraben was a crony of his. That was a truly terrifying time, and I had to step way out of my comfort zone to advocate for the right treatment for my son.

 

I'm not saying there are not arrogant and stupid U.S. doctors; just that there is more choice here and, in general, more dialogue with the patients. Perhaps this is a function of Switzerland being a small country -- and perhaps I'm spoiled being in CA in a metro area with a population greater than that of the entire country of Switzerland, with correspondingly greater numbers of subspecialists. And my Swiss obstetricians were wonderful (of course there is more choice here, as I didn't need a subspecialist).

 

Perhaps these negative aspects have all changed ... it has been a decade or so since we left Switzerland. :)

 

The US has looked at Swiss health care as a possible model for them, but no real progress has been made on that point, obviously!

 

I was planning to come back and clarify that if I had my way, the U.S. would adopt the Swiss health-care system -- imo a great balance of universal and private. We've had many discussions about this with visiting Swiss friends.

 

Back to the OP -- Monica, I really sympathize. We had many friends who were Swiss-U.S. couples. (It was almost always an American woman married to a Swiss man.) It's so hard ... :grouphug:

Edited March 22, 2012 by Laura in CA

[garddwr]

Sort of strange, but I've realized that I do probably see my family *enough*, though I would really prefer to be able to pop over for lunch on a random day rather than have tp plan out visits and 24 hour travel.

 

I'm actually just as upset at losing my dream of my own place. I've always wanted a house and yard and garden.

 

Not gonna happen.

 

:grouphug::grouphug:

There are always trade-offs aren't there? We recently acquired a house and yard, after moving from California (too expensive for us!) but now we have long cold winters to deal with. We never have been near family, and I understand completely wishing you could pop over for lunch or have someone take your kids for an afternoon.

 

On the other hand, Switzerland is such a lovely central location from which to visit all of Europe...I'm more than a bit jealous of that aspect!

 

--Sarah

[Colleen]

Yes, just outside Lausanne.

 

We have family there.:) I am still curious as to your husband's family. Aren't any of them living in CH?

 

Well, I just found an email in my inbox from the flight company confirming the flight cancellation, so I guess that decision got made.

 

But at least it's made. The indecision can be maddening.

 

Sort of strange, but I've realized that I do probably see my family *enough*, though I would really prefer to be able to pop over for lunch on a random day rather than have tp plan out visits and 24 hour travel.

 

I'm actually just as upset at losing my dream of my own place. I've always wanted a house and yard and garden.

 

I hear you about the ease of visiting family who are close by. We live in a town filled with extended families, but we have no one here. I've always been so envious of people who can just swing by their parents' house for a short time and so on. And that's how it would be if we lived in Switzerland. But when we visit there, it just isn't the same.

 

Ah, well. The grass is always greener ~ and that's true of home ownership, too, of course. There's a lot to be said for not having the ongoing burdens associated with a house and yard.

 

Best to you, Monica.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Hi Colleen,

 

Sorry I meant to fill in that little puzzle piece- DHs family is extremely smal. He is estranged from his father, his mom is not in a condition to help at all with the kids (mental), and his brother, who is wonderful, lives about an hour away and we see him about once a month or so. He enjoys the kids but is not a "kid person" so to speak.

 

Sigh. I'll get over it, I always do.

[treestarfae]

Try to meet other moms and a gardening group. See if there's a community garden or a farmer willing to rent you a plot to garden. Grow as many things in containers as you can.

[elinnea]

That's hard. We've lived in dh's country and currently live in mine. I have had all the same feelings that you've described. I am happy that we moved back to the U.S. but there are a lot of things I miss about dh's country too and I do ask myself whether we made the right decision sometimes.

 

I think that once you have lived in another country that it's hard to ever feel at home anywhere again. At least that has been my experience.

[garddwr]

That's hard. We've lived in dh's country and currently live in mine. I have had all the same feelings that you've described. I am happy that we moved back to the U.S. but there are a lot of things I miss about dh's country too and I do ask myself whether we made the right decision sometimes.

 

I think that once you have lived in another country that it's hard to ever feel at home anywhere again. At least that has been my experience.

 

:iagree:

I have spent about half my life living as an expat. The sense of not belonging can be even stronger when you return "home" than when you are living away.

[Deb in NZ]

:iagree:

I have spent about half my life living as an expat. The sense of not belonging can be even stronger when you return "home" than when you are living away.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Guest submarines]

:iagree:

I have spent about half my life living as an expat. The sense of not belonging can be even stronger when you return "home" than when you are living away.

 

How true.

[asta]

You can't go 'home' again.

 

Despite what you may think from afar, everyone back there has moved along according to 'American' norms. And despite what you may think about yourself from where you sit, you have not 'kept up' with those same cultural norms.

 

Fish out of water and all that.

 

Yeah, it's great to "see the family" on visits. But until we decide to plop ourselves down on a piece of land and re-establish ourselves (and our identities) as full-on Americans-who-no-longer-move-about... nope - not going there.

 

Even kid isn't going to an American uni. He can't stand the atmosphere.

 

 

a

[asta]

Do you have the (well this is what the locals here call them) "crazy chicken people" or the "crazy garden people" plots there?

 

You know, the 2 acres where a huge number of people each have a tiny plot with an overly stylized wooden garden shed (that they somehow almost live in in good weather) and a meticulously tended garden?

 

There are some more "down-scale" versions here as well... they would be a good garden substitute.

 

Also, you never know what you might find lurking in your canton - I found a building from 1885 that had a huge tiered garden behind it - but only for my flat. The other flats had their own bennies (a garage, a big balcony, etc.). You can't see it from the front - I lucked upon it. It was in disrepair, so the landlord wasn't advertising it, but I've been working on it.

 

Things will work out.

 

 

a

[Ester Maria]

I have spent about half my life living as an expat. The sense of not belonging can be even stronger when you return "home" than when you are living away.

I wonder if this has something to do with how old you were when you first left. I think people who had a more or less stable upbringing in one place, went through most or the entirety of their education there and found their spouse there, and THEN left - in their mid to late twenties, already with children and all - may still have that sense of belonging because the ties are simply too strong NOT to definitely belong to a certain place... so even if past that point they lived abroad, I think it s a very different situation than somebody who grew up internationally between several countries and never really had an opportunity to have that stability as a child and in the youth periods critical for identity formation / starting your own family / etc.

 

I agree, though, that extended stays abroad definitely form you in a way to acquire a perspective which you would not have acquired had you lived only home - and that it is very difficult to forgo of that and "block" it, so it does affect you. But I still think it is possible to feel at home when you are home for some people.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Thanks to all.

 

I realize there is no "going home again".

 

To tell the truth, I don't particularly care for pop culture in either location. I sort of felt being a home owner would allow me to embrace my hermit-ish-ness. :001_smile: It's hard to "dou your own thing" when you step outside your front door and have to greet and be greeted by the entire neighborhood of apartment dwellers.

 

Yes, we do have community gardens. I've been on the waiting list for a plot for three years now, and probably have another 2-3 years to go. They are in pretty high demand. However, it would be hard to have a garden here and visit family with regularity for the whole middle part of the year... who would take over my garden? lol.

 

I know I'll get over this, but it was a major blow.

[asta]

Thanks to all.

 

I realize there is no "going home again".

 

To tell the truth, I don't particularly care for pop culture in either location. I sort of felt being a home owner would allow me to embrace my hermit-ish-ness. :001_smile: It's hard to "do your own thing" when you step outside your front door and have to greet and be greeted by the entire neighborhood of apartment dwellers.

 

Yes, we do have community gardens. I've been on the waiting list for a plot for three years now, and probably have another 2-3 years to go. They are in pretty high demand. However, it would be hard to have a garden here and visit family with regularity for the whole middle part of the year... who would take over my garden? lol.

 

I know I'll get over this, but it was a major blow.

 

Sorry to hear this.

 

I think the reason I lucked out was because my building is (strangely) nestled in amongst similar old houses that have been taken over by businesses (doctors, architects, etc.), so I'm not constantly running into "neighbors" - rather, a random assortment of people who don't necessarily want to talk! (Woo hoo!)

 

 

a

[garddwr]

I wonder if this has something to do with how old you were when you first left. I think people who had a more or less stable upbringing in one place, went through most or the entirety of their education there and found their spouse there, and THEN left - in their mid to late twenties, already with children and all - may still have that sense of belonging because the ties are simply too strong NOT to definitely belong to a certain place... so even if past that point they lived abroad, I think it s a very different situation than somebody who grew up internationally between several countries and never really had an opportunity to have that stability as a child and in the youth periods critical for identity formation / starting your own family / etc.

 

I agree, though, that extended stays abroad definitely form you in a way to acquire a perspective which you would not have acquired had you lived only home - and that it is very difficult to forgo of that and "block" it, so it does affect you. But I still think it is possible to feel at home when you are home for some people.

 

I think the sense of not belonging is certainly stronger for those who were overseas for many of their formative years. I was 9 years old when we first moved overseas, and definitely felt like a foreign student when I came back to the US for college (and people kept asking me where I was from because apparently I had developed some kind of odd accent along the way). I have younger siblings who were born overseas and I know the sense of being foreigners in the US was even stronger for them. I'll have to ask my parents what their experience has been with coming home--they returned to the US last year (though to a state and region they have never lived in before) after nearly 25 years overseas.

 

--Sarah

[Scuff]

One thing i don't understand, you said that swiss homes at 1mil+, but that you could afford a Cali home. Aren't Cali homes pretty $$, too? Perhaps if you lived frugally, as you would have to in CA, you can continue to save and get a swiss home? Perhaps not as fast, but is it doable?

[snickelfritz]

One thing i don't understand, you said that swiss homes at 1mil+, but that you could afford a Cali home. Aren't Cali homes pretty $$, too? Perhaps if you lived frugally, as you would have to in CA, you can continue to save and get a swiss home? Perhaps not as fast, but is it doable?

 

Not all areas of California are the huge, huge, bucks and I don't remember if she gave an idea of the location. We have family that lives in a non-beach, non-ritz, farming-surrounded city in California. We actually call it a twin of our city, because it so similar to ours. There ARE very expensive homes. And their real estate IS more expensive than our mid-western town (though we didn't have the large-scale boom and bust in prices.) But, their ranch-style, 3 bedroom and an office, with almost an acre, pool, and barn in the suburbs of their city is not even close to million dollar level pricing.

 

Monica--sorry it's not working out the way you hoped.

Edited March 22, 2012 by snickelfritz

[ereks mom]

I think we do tend to romanticize our "home". I understand wanting to be closer to family, but you all might become a little resentful that your lifestyle is so restricted by finances.

 

:iagree:

 

And :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

The regoing we would have moved to has homes in the 200-300k range in good neighborhoods.

 

But alas!

 

Still sad, but feeling better with every minute. Major advantage of being an optimist. :001_smile:

[garddwr]

The regoing we would have moved to has homes in the 200-300k range in good neighborhoods.

 

But alas!

 

Still sad, but feeling better with every minute. Major advantage of being an optimist. :001_smile:

 

Glad to hear it. Sometimes we have to take a little time out to mourn over a lost dream, even though we know there are plenty of open doors ahead of us.

[Mom-ninja.]

Honest advice.

 

Don't do it. Don't trade Switzerland for the US. In fact, don't trade Switzerland for almost ANY country in the world.

 

 

I completely 100,000% agree!

 

I would never ever leave Switzerland if I lived there. If my DH could get a job there we would move there immediately.