I need a quick bit of info regarding the Pearls' book

[StaceyinLA]

We had our Mom's Night meeting here tonight. One of the leaders brought a NGJ catalog, and there was some discussion of the TTUAC book. Several of the moms have read the book. These are moms I have known for YEARS, none of whom practice the spanking methods of the Pearls.

 

However, when I brought up that they specifically recommend certain types of implements to spank with, 2 of the moms shot it down like it wasn't true. I didn't speak up because I didn't know where the reference came from.

 

I don't want these books to be put in the newsletter as encouraging for families. There are too many questionable things that less discerning people might not be able to weed out.

 

Can someone PLEASE let me know where the information about using certain implements to spank with comes from, and any information regarding spanking infants (book or website). If book, please give me the page # and quotes if you can. If website, please link me to where. I wouldn't ask anyone to do all my dirty work except that I don't have the book, and I don't know where to look on the site. I need this information as quickly as possible so I can pass it on to this leader before it winds up offered as good reading to unsuspecting young moms.

 

Thanks!

[Alenee]

I don't own the book but want to keep this on the first page. There are enough people here that despise it though so I'm sure you'll get your answers. Bless you for being pro-active. :grouphug:

[Shamzanne]

I no longer have the book ( I was given a copy when my daughter was born, and I was horrified by it), but I know it talks about whipping your baby with a small switch of some sort on the back of the legs by the time they are crawling. This is to train him or her where it is not OK to crawl. Training children was likened to training a horse.

That's all I remember specifically.

[Perogi]

There are quite a few articles on discipline on their website. Here is one that recommends using a switch on a 7 month old baby to train it to lay down and go to sleep when placed in the crib:

http://nogreaterjoy.org/articles/spanking-a-7-month-old/?topic_slug=babies-the-rod

This one specifically mentions the plumber's supply line as an effective tool:

http://nogreaterjoy.org/articles/in-defense-of-biblical-chastisement-part-2/?topic_slug=toddlers-the-rod

Edited March 7, 2012 by Perogi

[Lang Syne Boardie]

http://whynottrainachild.com/ <------ Resource site created by someone I know. You may have to dig around to find what you need, but it's all there somewhere.

 

On the right sidebar is a link to a FB page where you could ask, too, and somebody will probably answer promptly. There's even a twitter page.

 

Thanks for speaking up. :grouphug:

[Catwoman]

Just giving this another bump so you'll be able to get all of the info you need! (I don't have the book, so I can't help you.)

[Lang Syne Boardie]

There are quite a few articles on discipline on their website. Here is one that recommends using a switch on a 7 month old baby to train it to lay down and go to sleep when placed in the crib:

http://nogreaterjoy.org/articles/spanking-a-7-month-old/?topic_slug=babies-the-rod

This one specifically mentions the plumner's supply line as an effective tool:

http://nogreaterjoy.org/articles/in-defense-of-biblical-chastisement-part-2/?topic_slug=toddlers-the-rod

 

:crying:

[Melissa in Australia]

bump

[CupOCoffee]

DISCLAIMER: I do not in any way shape or form support the ideas taught by the Pearls--whether in the book, website, FB page or private consultation. But I need to ask this question:

 

Has ANYONE been able to produce book pages where this specific question is answered (like ever, not just right now)? I wonder if there might be a bit of truth to what these women claimed, that it is NOT in the book. Yeah, a technicality to be sure....

 

I *know* there are those on this site who do like this book (they may be afraid to come forward though), who could actually search the book. It would be interesting to know whether it really says that in the book (type of instruments) or whether that kind of information is only on their website, and other locations. My point: perhaps some who may be fond of this method are only using the book, and therefore CAN claim that said information is NOT in there...just a thought.

 

I learned this very important lesson years ago while debating/debunking the Ezzo materials: you better know the material inside out and upside down before you ever try to argue about it to someone who has fallen hook line and sinker for it.

 

(please re-read my disclaimer before responding)

 

~coffee~

[Mrs Mungo]

People here have posted direct quotes form the book *many* times. I don't own the book, so I cannot provide page numbers (if they are even the same from edition to edition). But, I have some articles that go through chapter by chapter and provide direct quotes from the book. I'm going to list the first one, post and then edit to add some more.

 

http://www.quicksilverqueen.com/2011/to-train-up-a-child-introduction/

 

http://www.positivelyfeminine.org/02/to-train-up-a-child/ this one gives page numbers

 

http://theologica.ning.com/profiles/blogs/to-train-up-a-child-an gives page numbers, but also reference other Pearl materials

Edited March 7, 2012 by Mrs Mungo

[kitten18]

There are quite a few articles on discipline on their website. Here is one that recommends using a switch on a 7 month old baby to train it to lay down and go to sleep when placed in the crib:

http://nogreaterjoy.org/articles/spanking-a-7-month-old/?topic_slug=babies-the-rod

This one specifically mentions the plumber's supply line as an effective tool:

http://nogreaterjoy.org/articles/in-defense-of-biblical-chastisement-part-2/?topic_slug=toddlers-the-rod

:( Unbelievable.

[bagel270]

http://www.quicksilverqueen.com/ttuacbook.html

Here you go.

There's some in chapter 1, and Chapter 9 was very scary.

Edited March 7, 2012 by bagel270
forgot some

[justasque]

[From here, comments are also quotes from that page and not mine. Bolding mine. These quotes can be verified by looking at the full text of the book, as posted on this web page.]

 

----------------------------------------------------------------

 

The Pearls recommend switching infants only a few months old on their bare skin. They describe switching their own 4 month old daughter (p.9).

 

At four months she was too unknowing to be punished for disobedience. But for her own good, we attempted to train her not to climb the stairs by coordinating the voice command of “No” with little spats on the bare legs. The switch was a twelve-inch long, one-eighth-inch diameter sprig from a willow tree.

 

On p.60 they recommend switching babies who cannot sleep and are crying, and to never allow them “to get up.”

 

But what of the grouch who would rather complain than sleep? Get tough. Be firm with him. Never put him down and then allow him to get up. If, after putting him down, you remember he just woke up, do not reward his complaining by allowing him to get up.For the sake of consistency in training, you must follow through. He may not be able to sleep, but he can be trained to lie there quietly. He will very quickly come to know that any time he is laid down there is no alternative but to stay put. To get up is to be on the firing line and get switched back down.

 

On p.79 they recommend whipping a 7 month old for screaming.

 

A seven-month-old boy had, upon failing to get his way, stiffened clenched his fists, bared his toothless gums and called down ****ation on the whole place. At a time like that, the angry expression on a baby’s face can resemble that of one instigating a riot. The young mother, wanting to do the right thing, stood there in helpless consternation, apologetically shrugged her shoulders and said, “What can I do?” My incredulous nine-year-old whipped back, “Switch him.” The mother responded, “I can’t, he’s too little.” With the wisdom of a veteran who had been on the little end of the switch, my daughter answered, “If he is old enough to pitch a fit, he is old enough to be spanked.”

 

On p.65 co-author Debi Pearl whips the bare leg of a 15 month old she is babysitting, 10 separate times, for not playing with something she tells him to play with.

 

After about ten acts of stubborn defiance, followed by ten switchings, he surrendered his will to one higher than himself. In rolling the wheel, he did what every accountable human being must do–he humbled himself before the “highest” and admitted that his interests are not paramount. After one begrudged roll, my wife turned to other chores.

 

On p.47 they give details of what to use for a spanking instrument.

 

Any spanking, to effectively reinforce instruction, must cause pain, but the most pain is on the surface of bare skin where the nerves are located. A surface sting will cause sufficient pain, with no injury or bruising. Select your instrument according to the child’s size. For the under one year old, a little, ten- to twelve-inch long, willowy branch (striped of any knots that might break the skin) about one-eighth inch diameter is sufficient. Sometimes alternatives have to be sought. A one-foot ruler, or its equivalent in a paddle, is a sufficient alternative. For the larger child, a belt or larger tree branch is effective.

 

The Pearls recommend pulling a nursing infant’s hair (p.7)

 

One particularly painful experience of nursing mothers is the biting baby. My wife did not waste time finding a cure. When the baby bit, she pulled hair (an alternative has to be sought for baldheaded babies).

 

----------------------------------------------------------------

 

[There are more quotes on the web site linked above.]

Edited March 7, 2012 by askPauline
Added link to the book itself.

[mamajudy]

Page 47, in chapter 6, says to select your instrument according to the child's size. Willowy branches, one foot rulers or their equivalent, and belts or larger tree branches are mentioned. There may be other places where specific tools are suggested, but I don't have the time to read the whole book right now.

AskPauline, it looks like you beat me to it!

Edited March 7, 2012 by mamajudy

[Mrs Mungo]

DISCLAIMER: I do not in any way shape or form support the ideas taught by the Pearls--whether in the book, website, FB page or private consultation. But I need to ask this question:

 

Has ANYONE been able to produce book pages where this specific question is answered (like ever, not just right now)? I wonder if there might be a bit of truth to what these women claimed, that it is NOT in the book. Yeah, a technicality to be sure....

 

I *know* there are those on this site who do like this book (they may be afraid to come forward though), who could actually search the book. It would be interesting to know whether it really says that in the book (type of instruments) or whether that kind of information is only on their website, and other locations. My point: perhaps some who may be fond of this method are only using the book, and therefore CAN claim that said information is NOT in there...just a thought.

 

I learned this very important lesson years ago while debating/debunking the Ezzo materials: you better know the material inside out and upside down before you ever try to argue about it to someone who has fallen hook line and sinker for it.

 

(please re-read my disclaimer before responding)

 

~coffee~

 

I have to say, I find this post downright insulting. We're not that stupid, and this has been discussed many times here.

[justasque]

I have to say, I find this post downright insulting. We're not that stupid, and this has been discussed many times here.

 

Yeah, but it never hurts to be sure of your facts, and if the PP wasn't here for the previous discussions, then they are wise to double-check. WE are not stupid - in this forum claims with no basis in fact are quickly shot down - but it is not uncommon for basic facts to be lost or misrepresented in many OTHER public discussion arenas.

[Mrs Mungo]

Yeah, but it never hurts to be sure of your facts, and if the PP wasn't here for the previous discussions, then they are wise to double-check.

 

That is why we have a search function. To ask if anyone has EVER been able to back up these claims (which are hardly out there given the vast amounts of information provided by the Pearls, themselves), that is insulting, imo.

 

WE are not stupid - in this forum claims with no basis in fact are quickly shot down - but it is not uncommon for basic facts to be lost or misrepresented in many OTHER public discussion arenas.

 

I guess it just shows that its wise to know your audience. Maybe I'm reading a tone into it that wasn't intended. I'm tired this morning. :confused:

[mlbuchina]

I had never even heard of the Pearls until I saw the original thread. The things I am reading in this thread makes me so glad of it.

 

Obviously, I have never read the book, so I can't answer your question, but I wanted to offer an alternative to it. If you can't get them to not suggest it, perhaps offering another, opposing maybe?, view along with it would help give a better balance.

 

The Discipline Book by Dr. Sears. He doesn't say that you shouldn't spank your dc, but he suggests lots of alternatives to use before going that route.

[mytwomonkeys]

i was given the book when my daughter was small. i read it and definitely thought it was abusive! i don't own it any longer, but i specifically remember it talking about training a baby to obey. for example, if you do not want the baby to go near the stairs - you would spank the baby with a wooden spoon. then eventually you could just lay that wooden spoon on the first step and the baby would know not to climb the stairs.

 

i'm sorry. but that's just mean.

[WistfulRidge]

Wow, this makes me want to throw up.

:iagree:

[Lovedtodeath]

That is why we have a search function. To ask if anyone has EVER been able to back up these claims (which are hardly out there given the vast amounts of information provided by the Pearls, themselves), that is insulting, imo.

That is when I reply, "Oh so sorry, I cannot provide an original or a photocopy. I already burned the books."

[CupOCoffee]

Thank you all who answered my specific question...

 

Mrs Mungo I am sorry you felt insulted by my asking it, there was no tone intended...

 

Yes, the stuff makes me want to throw up as well...

 

~coffee~ <---- bean dip flavored at the moment

[amey311]

FWIW, you may be able to find the book at your local library (or request it via ILL) then you could see the words in print yourself.

 

<<< does not train up her children

[TravelingChris]

Can I make a suggestion for alternative material? Look up Reb Bradley and his writings. He used to be much more hard line (not in the way of the Pearls but still very strict) and he has changed his ways because of the experiences he has had with his kids. He writes and speaks very convincingly about how to cherish a loving relationship with your children and how that is more important than strict rules.

 

I really, really want everyone to know that I did know Reb Bradley when he was more strict and it was never in the way of the Pearls. In fact, I know personally that he counseled people in ways that are truly Christian and contrary to the way the Pearl's interpret things.

[Alenee]

Again, I don't own the book and never read it, however, you can watch videos of the authors explaining their methods, right down to the exact type of instruments (weapons) they suggest. And of course, they'll tell you, "it's in the book," to promote it. :glare:

[sassenach]

Stacey, in regard to putting the book in the newsletter, you should point out the growing legal issues that surround that book and suggest that the board or whoever runs your homeschool group might not want to risk finding themselves at the wrong end of a legal suit should anything bad come of recommending it.

[Mrs Mungo]

Mrs Mungo I am sorry you felt insulted by my asking it, there was no tone intended...

 

Sorry, feeling touchy this morning, apparently. No hard feelings? :grouphug:

[clarkacademy]

We had our Mom's Night meeting here tonight. One of the leaders brought a NGJ catalog, and there was some discussion of the TTUAC book. Several of the moms have read the book. These are moms I have known for YEARS, none of whom practice the spanking methods of the Pearls.

 

However, when I brought up that they specifically recommend certain types of implements to spank with, 2 of the moms shot it down like it wasn't true. I didn't speak up because I didn't know where the reference came from.

 

I don't want these books to be put in the newsletter as encouraging for families. There are too many questionable things that less discerning people might not be able to weed out.

 

Can someone PLEASE let me know where the information about using certain implements to spank with comes from, and any information regarding spanking infants (book or website). If book, please give me the page # and quotes if you can. If website, please link me to where. I wouldn't ask anyone to do all my dirty work except that I don't have the book, and I don't know where to look on the site. I need this information as quickly as possible so I can pass it on to this leader before it winds up offered as good reading to unsuspecting young moms.

 

Thanks!

 

He even talks about this in interviews he has done, if they read the book and all I don't see how they can act as if it is not true.

[CupOCoffee]

Sorry, feeling touchy this morning, apparently. No hard feelings? :grouphug:

 

None whatsoever. :grouphug:

 

~coffee~

[Lovedtodeath]

Stacey, in regard to putting the book in the newsletter, you should point out the growing legal issues that surround that book and suggest that the board or whoever runs your homeschool group might not want to risk finding themselves at the wrong end of a legal suit should anything bad come of recommending it.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[justasque]

Stacey, in regard to putting the book in the newsletter, you should point out the growing legal issues that surround that book and suggest that the board or whoever runs your homeschool group might not want to risk finding themselves at the wrong end of a legal suit should anything bad come of recommending it.

 

I would also mention that the methods described are particularly unsuitable when used with children who have special emotional, physical, or intellectual needs, and yet these are the kids who often present the most parenting challenges. Often their needs aren't diagnosed until the child is much older (3 or 4 years), so the parent may not realize why the child is behaving the way they are. Parents in these situations can get very frustrated that their kid is not responding the way the books say they "should", leading the parent to be ashamed that they are a bad parent, and to escalate the discipline. Adding Biblical issues into the mix can put additional pressure onto a parent who really has the best of intentions to be a good parent and raise up a good child. A method that uses escalation as the primary tool, as TTUAC does, can box the parent into a corner, with no tools to use or advice as to how to proceed when this kind of harsh discipline isn't working.

 

IMHO, *ANY* wise parenting book should address the possibility that the methods they advocate may not work as intended given the diversity of children's learning styles, innate personality traits, and possible special needs. A book that doesn't take this into account should be looked at with a very critical eye.

 

If the group isn't receptive, another approach would be to have a little column of members discussing their most favorite and least favorite parenting books, with the "why" in their own words. "Teach the controversy!" :D

[momto2Cs]

Stacey, in regard to putting the book in the newsletter, you should point out the growing legal issues that surround that book and suggest that the board or whoever runs your homeschool group might not want to risk finding themselves at the wrong end of a legal suit should anything bad come of recommending it.

 

:iagree: Good idea to bring it up this way. However, if they won't back down, then...

 

I wanted to offer an alternative to it. If you can't get them to not suggest it, perhaps offering another, opposing maybe?, view along with it would help give a better balance.

 

The Discipline Book by Dr. Sears. He doesn't say that you shouldn't spank your dc, but he suggests lots of alternatives to use before going that route.

 

The Sears book would be a great counterpoint to the Pearls. A completely different tone.

 

I feel vaguely ill now. :ack2: Why aren't the Pearls in prison, or their books banned, or something?

[Nakia]

That "training not to touch" crap makes me especially sick. Why, oh why, would you set up "training sessions" that are meant to make your child "fail" just so you can spank him/her? So sad! Teaching not to touch can be done anytime, anywhere, in everyday life, without spanking (and I am not totally against spanking). You don't need to set up sessions. We're talking about babies and children, not dog training school. Heck, people (including me) treat their dogs better. It's just so sad. :crying:

[Lovedtodeath]

His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.-- 2 Peter 3:16

[Pretty in Pink]

It's been a few years and I no longer possess a copy of the book; however, I seem to recall that the book suggested beginning each day by gently spanking your infant with the rod to get them accustomed to seeing and being hit with the rod so that they wouldn't flinch, draw back, cry, or fear the rod when you used it for real discipline.

 

Perhaps I'm thinking of their website...

[pfamilygal]

His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.-- 2 Peter 3:16

 

I'm confused. Are you comparing Pearl's writings to Scripture?

 

He may believe he is inspired by God, but any teaching that says you should set your baby up for training sessions with shiny objects and then hit them when they touch them does NOT reflect the character of Jesus Christ.

[Lovedtodeath]

I'm confused. Are you comparing Pearl's writings to Scripture?

 

He may believe he is inspired by God, but any teaching that says you should set your baby up for training sessions with shiny objects and then hit them when they touch them does NOT reflect the character of Jesus Christ.

No I am saying that they are the ignorant and unstable people that distort scripture, and doing it by quoting a scripture that warns us of such an occurrence.

I'm confused. Are you comparing Pearl's writings to Scripture?

Whew! How awful! I am sorry I wasn't more clear.

 

does NOT reflect the character of Jesus Christ.

AMEN! If you want to guard against these types of teachings, then cling to Jesus and let Him teach you!

[Remudamom]

Training children was likened to training a horse.

No, no, and no. I despise the Pearls and not only would I not train a child OR a horse with their methods, I wouldn't train a pile of poop in the yard with them.

[StaceyinLA]

she is the leader of our group, and a friend. The other is actually a closer friend, and I will talk with her about it in the next day or two.

 

In doing some reading last night, I think what struck me, and really sickened me, is that he says (and I won't quote because these aren't exact words) that if you don't follow his methods, you "aren't fit to be parents." That part I remember. Despicable!

 

I feel like I was able to convince the leader today that this book need not be recommended as appropriate parenting material. Indeed she had come across some things that she was having issue with, so that was good.

[Perogi]

That is great!

[Mommy22alyns]

[From here, comments are also quotes from that page and not mine. Bolding mine. These quotes can be verified by looking at the full text of the book, as posted on this web page.]

 

----------------------------------------------------------------

 

The Pearls recommend switching infants only a few months old on their bare skin. They describe switching their own 4 month old daughter (p.9).

 

At four months she was too unknowing to be punished for disobedience. But for her own good, we attempted to train her not to climb the stairs by coordinating the voice command of “No†with little spats on the bare legs. The switch was a twelve-inch long, one-eighth-inch diameter sprig from a willow tree.

 

On p.60 they recommend switching babies who cannot sleep and are crying, and to never allow them “to get up.â€

 

But what of the grouch who would rather complain than sleep? Get tough. Be firm with him. Never put him down and then allow him to get up. If, after putting him down, you remember he just woke up, do not reward his complaining by allowing him to get up.For the sake of consistency in training, you must follow through. He may not be able to sleep, but he can be trained to lie there quietly. He will very quickly come to know that any time he is laid down there is no alternative but to stay put. To get up is to be on the firing line and get switched back down.

 

On p.79 they recommend whipping a 7 month old for screaming.

 

A seven-month-old boy had, upon failing to get his way, stiffened clenched his fists, bared his toothless gums and called down ****ation on the whole place. At a time like that, the angry expression on a baby’s face can resemble that of one instigating a riot. The young mother, wanting to do the right thing, stood there in helpless consternation, apologetically shrugged her shoulders and said, “What can I do?†My incredulous nine-year-old whipped back, “Switch him.†The mother responded, “I can’t, he’s too little.†With the wisdom of a veteran who had been on the little end of the switch, my daughter answered, “If he is old enough to pitch a fit, he is old enough to be spanked.â€

 

On p.65 co-author Debi Pearl whips the bare leg of a 15 month old she is babysitting, 10 separate times, for not playing with something she tells him to play with.

 

After about ten acts of stubborn defiance, followed by ten switchings, he surrendered his will to one higher than himself. In rolling the wheel, he did what every accountable human being must do–he humbled himself before the “highest†and admitted that his interests are not paramount. After one begrudged roll, my wife turned to other chores.

 

On p.47 they give details of what to use for a spanking instrument.

 

Any spanking, to effectively reinforce instruction, must cause pain, but the most pain is on the surface of bare skin where the nerves are located. A surface sting will cause sufficient pain, with no injury or bruising. Select your instrument according to the child’s size. For the under one year old, a little, ten- to twelve-inch long, willowy branch (striped of any knots that might break the skin) about one-eighth inch diameter is sufficient. Sometimes alternatives have to be sought. A one-foot ruler, or its equivalent in a paddle, is a sufficient alternative. For the larger child, a belt or larger tree branch is effective.

 

The Pearls recommend pulling a nursing infant’s hair (p.7)

 

One particularly painful experience of nursing mothers is the biting baby. My wife did not waste time finding a cure. When the baby bit, she pulled hair (an alternative has to be sought for baldheaded babies).

 

----------------------------------------------------------------

 

[There are more quotes on the web site linked above.]

 

This part absolutely makes me sick. It's all unspeakably horrible, but a RULER??? For a little kid??? Has anyone ever hit THEM with a ruler??

 

Just... :sad: