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Pregnant, not married professionals . . .


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Currently I know 3 elementary school teachers who are pregnant and not married.

 

Last year I knew 1 elementary teacher and 1 assistant principal. Both of those got married shortly (a month or two) before the babies were born.

 

I admit. I'm traditional. I don't see it as my job to judge or change other people, but I'm pretty conservative in my views.

 

I think I'm surprised by these situations because 1) they're not young people who got "trapped" by immature decisions and 2) they set an example for those they teach every day.

 

Would these situations affect your feelings if your child was in the class? (I know, many of us homeschool because we want to be the shapers of our dc's values.)

 

I can't talk to anyone locally about my feelings. I don't mean these teachers any disrespect. I'm just trying to sort out my own reactions since it seems the world is changing faster than I expected.

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I don't usually discuss the morality of these issues with people because it opens a can of worms. I will say though that I don't think it would bother me that these women are teaching little ones because usually marriage isn't something kids think of. By this I mean, I don't think little kids would notice that Miss Somone isn't wearing a wedding ring.

Something to think about.

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I wouldn't like it one bit. I don't want that type of example for my kids. I doubt I'd say anything to the women, but I'd sure talk to my kids about it.

 

I don't think they would allow that in the small town ps here. I don't know what they would do about it, but I can't see it happening.

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Would these situations affect your feelings if your child was in the class?
I expect professional behavior from teachers while they are in the classroom. I would have no issues with their teaching my children unless they are poor teachers.
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I expect professional behavior from teachers while they are in the classroom. I would have no issues with their teaching my children unless they are poor teachers.

 

:iagree:

 

If my kids brought up the issue of the women not being married, I would share my views with them, but otherwise I wouldn't.

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I think this reflects our changing times. 20 years ago when I was working on an adolescent ward in a pediatric hospital, one of the unmarried nurses was asked to quit as it was a bad role model for the patients. I can't see this happening now. My two youngest, 12 yo son and 15 yo daughter would have picked up on the fact that that person was pregnant and unmarried and would have commented on it to me, even when they were younger. It would have probably sailed over my oldest ds's head.

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When I was in second grade (parochial school) one of the second grade teachers was let go because she was pregnant and not married. I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that her being fired brought her "unmarried and pregnant" status to light MUCH MORE than had she continued working and just not discussed the issue with her class. We didn't know she wasn't married, and none of us second graders thought anything of it - until she was fired, and our parents had to start explaining why. I still remember it well, so obviously it made an impression on me, lol.

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I would not have brought it up but I know that kids would pick up on the fact that they were not married but having a baby. They have said something about that fact with a great uncle who is living with his girlfriend and they are not married. It is difficult to remember but I think everyone is entitled to their own choices and they may differ from your family values and choices. But, I have have heard from many of you on this panel---I try to not judge others as I don't want someone doing likewise with my valueschoices etc.

We live in an age where we think everyone is entitled to our opinions.

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I would be fine with it, but I know many who aren't. I work in childcare and my choices of how to have my family have resulted in others chosing not to leave their children in my care, despite the fact I am an excellent caregiver. See while I am legally still married I have been separated for 7.5 years but have chosen to have 2 more children on my own as a single parent. Many people do not agree with that choice, I have lost friendships over it etc. I also had my first two out of wedlock and got married to their dad when they were almost 1 and almost 2. I would not judge a woman for being pregnant and not married because it's not my business. From the sounds of it 2 were in commited relationships and the pregnancy just sped things up a bit. You don't know if they are in loving commited relationships, you don't know if the pregnancy was caused by rape(I have been pg and m/c due to a date rape situation at an older teen), you don't know if their chose to use a donor as I did for my youngest two. Other than knowing they are pregnant and unmarried you know nothing of the situation and really should not be judging them for it.

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I wouldn't like it one bit. I don't want that type of example for my kids. I doubt I'd say anything to the women, but I'd sure talk to my kids about it.

 

I don't think they would allow that in the small town ps here. I don't know what they would do about it, but I can't see it happening.

 

I actually don't think there is anything the school could do. It's illegal to fire a teacher for being pregnant, regardless of her marital status. I'm not sure about reassigning, but I doubt that would fly.

 

I wouldn't love having my child in that situation. But honestly, I would not say much to anyone. There isn't much the school can do, and it wouldn't feel right to me to talk about it with other parents - I would just feel gossipy. And I guess I would be happy for her too - I always feel happy about people having babies, even in tough circumstances.

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Well, it's kind-of tough. Let's say we all agree that being pregnant & unmarried is immoral (although we obviously don't). So we fire the teachers in question.

 

What about the fathers of those babies?

 

Ultimately, I think it's human nature to want to bring other people around to OUR point of view. While I *completely* understand the isssue of role modeling, I tend to think that a nonjudgemental kind of acceptance is more likely to win a convert than firing someone. I'm probably wrong, though, as I never have met anyone who thinks like me, & it doesn't seem like I ever change anyone's mind, either. ;):glare::lol:

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I think kids are much more aware of these things than we give them credit for. That being said, our favorite baby-sitter ever got pregnant when she was 19. She had just graduated from HS that spring and was planning on college. The girls had a lot of questions about how she could have a baby if she wasn't married and we talked a lot about how God really wants a baby to have a mommy and daddy when they are born, but sometimes people decide to do it differently. This girl is still our favorite baby-sitter, and she and her son spend a lot of time with my kids. I *hope* that what they will learn in the long run is that even if something happens and they ever were to end up in that situation, while it wouldn't be the best thing, it wouldn't be the end of the world either. The babysitter is pretty open about that this wasn't the plan she had, but she couldn't imagine life without her son either.

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I'll never forget the sour looks on some of the nurses, and how blatantly rude the woman taking our marriage application (with a 2 year old in tow) (she was sugary, just sugary, to everyone else in line) was. I was in my mid-40's.

 

It was a financial decision. We married when it was right for us financially. Since I earned much more, had a house, some savings, etc, and he had been a hand to mouth laborer raising two kids with a SAHM all those years, I had something to lose, and he didn't. The thought of being a divorced and financially bilked single mother was more scary to me than being a single mother with money. I have had several patients marry in middle age and end up in a puddle in my office (if not a short stay in a hospital for hysterical grief) when they found out their dream man drained their account and fled.

 

After having a divorce from a really responsible, admired, smart, loveable guy, I said to a close friend of both of us "If this man let me down, any man can let me down". She told me our split had rattled lots of feathers, as in middle aged women looking at their husbands and wondering if they'd be left next.

 

A loved child that can be provided for is the goal. I applaud two parents, but that is not 100% riskless...divorce is rampant, and two people can be bad parents as well. I waited literally decades to have a child with a man I thought would make a decent father. But I didn't have a decade to hang out and see if my guess was right. I did what I thought was right for my child, and thank goodness I didn't lose a job or get shunned for it or I would have be hopping mad.

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I'm not as conservative as many on this board.

 

I've been in a 14 year "paper marriage". There was very little in that "marriage" that was of God's design for families.

 

I've been a single mom. We were more family at that point than the 10 years prior. "Broken" my patootie. We were broken while I was married to the man.

 

Now I'm married and happily partnered. THIS, what I have now, is I believe God's design for families.

 

While I think a middle aged professional has a greater chance to mother well as a single than a younger, less established woman, I don't think it's God's design. I would not want that modeled or presented as an attractive option for my children - especially from people in leadership/mentoring/teaching roles.

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I think kids are much more aware of these things than we give them credit for. That being said, our favorite baby-sitter ever got pregnant when she was 19. She had just graduated from HS that spring and was planning on college. The girls had a lot of questions about how she could have a baby if she wasn't married and we talked a lot about how God really wants a baby to have a mommy and daddy when they are born, but sometimes people decide to do it differently. This girl is still our favorite baby-sitter, and she and her son spend a lot of time with my kids. I *hope* that what they will learn in the long run is that even if something happens and they ever were to end up in that situation, while it wouldn't be the best thing, it wouldn't be the end of the world either. The babysitter is pretty open about that this wasn't the plan she had, but she couldn't imagine life without her son either.

 

:iagree: Well said!

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I think it's sad that sleeping around is so commonplace now. Moreover, I think it's sad that something I never saw when I was growing up is so rampant now (unwed married teachers). I thought I read somewhere that 50 % of children born are from unmarried women. I would assume that most abortions are performed on unmarried women as well, so that would lead me to believe that more children are conceived from unmarried situations than married.

 

It would affect how I felt about the teacher, but I wouldn't necessarily refuse to let her teach my children. It's a hard thing to really think through because I don't want any teacher teaching my children on a daily basis in that environment.

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I think it's sad that sleeping around is so commonplace now. Moreover, I think it's sad that something I never saw when I was growing up is so rampant now (unwed married teachers). I thought I read somewhere that 50 % of children born are from unmarried women. I would assume that most abortions are performed on unmarried women as well, so that would lead me to believe that more children are conceived from unmarried situations than married.

 

It would affect how I felt about the teacher, but I wouldn't necessarily refuse to let her teach my children. It's a hard thing to really think through because I don't want any teacher teaching my children on a daily basis in that environment.

 

Hmmm, but just because someone is pregnant sans marriage doesn't mean she's sleeping around. I know that the perception is if someone has sex outside marriage, she is promiscuous, but that's not always so. Or at least, that's not my definition of promiscuous, though I can't speak for everyone here. (I also know that it is more perception for women than for men.) In my high school, if it was known a girl had sex with her boyfriend and only her boyfriend and later ended up marrying him, she was considered by most a girl of loose morals who "slept around."

 

It's quite possible these women are in monogamous relationships, even life-long relationships, but are not married at present. (This isn't meant to be a value judgment on these relationships or the situation, but just throwing this out.)

 

You are absolutely correct about the abortion rates.

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When I say sleeping around, I mean having sex outside of marriage.

 

Ok, thanks for defining. When I say sleeping around, I mean having sex with multiple partners with a further connotation of indiscriminate, casual sexual activity. I think this is more of a "worldly" definition, true, but I also think this is a more widely accepted understanding of the term.

 

Your definition is more of what was accepted by the boys in my high school. If she'll do it with her boyfriend, it followed that she would do it with everyone. Therefore, they said, that girl "slept around."

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Mind you I am traditional in values all the way, but when I was in scientific research and program management for 15 years before we had children, there was always 1-2 babies born a year in my circles to moms who were not married. After my firstborn arrived, I became an adjunct professor at a state community college, and it's the same there -- 1-2 babies a year in my professional circle born to an unmarried professional woman. It's become so much a part of society at large, sadly I can't imagine that a higher standard for K-12 education would even been considered.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't like it a bit, but that's not at all uncommon outside the protected world of homeschoolers.

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Don't get me wrong, I don't like it a bit, but that's not at all uncommon outside the protected world of homeschoolers.

 

That's assuming quite a bit about home schoolers. Even on our board, one of our dear board mates is pregnant and unmarried. Others have living arrangements that include children and no marriage, though usually either because marriage isn't allowed by the government (they are a same-sex couple) or they do not choose to go this route for their lives.

 

And while it honestly would not be my first choice for circumstances in bringing a kid into the world for quite a few reasons, I'm thrilled for the pregnant one -- mainly because SHE and her partner are thrilled.

 

(And Gail, I'm not trying to put you on the spot, but trying to put this in perspective.)

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When I say sleeping around, I mean having sex outside of marriage.

 

Well, maybe it is all a matter of semantics, but I think these are not the same thing. (ETA: I appreciate that you clarified what you mean by those words, but I quoted you anyway because I wanted to point out how I define them, not to pick on you.)

 

My dh and I have been together for 16 years and married for 11. Our children are 14 and 11 (12 in a couple months). Obviously our dc were born before we were married. We were (and still are :001_smile:) in a loving, committed, monogamous relationship. I would not say that I was "sleeping around". To me sleeping around is when someone sleeps with whoever they feel like with no commitment/relationship whatsoever.

 

It is hard to say, but it is possible we might still not be married if the circumstances surrounding our getting married had been different.

 

Anyway, I am not big on girls getting pg and not being in a secure, loving relationship. I also don't think marriage automatically equals a secure, loving relationship. Just because someone is pg and not married does not mean they are not in a committed relationship. A piece of paper does not make a situation secure.

 

So no the situation the op described would not bother me. If my dc brought it up we would talk about it. We are just starting to get into the relationship discussions at home. I am encouraging my dc to look at their sexuality as a gift and to not give it away lightly. I don't want to see my dd raising a child on her own or my ds to go through seeing his child every other weekend and having to support a family that he is no longer a part of.

 

I basically agree with a previous poster who said that we don't necessarily know the situations these women are in. I guess my question is why does being married make the situation ok? What if they were in an abusive marriage? Is it still ok because at least they are married? Does that make it better than a couple who are not married with children, but are committed to and love each other?

 

Being married is not the be all, end all and there are people who are in wonderful relationships without it.

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to be truthful it wouldn't really bother me. if my child brought it up to me i would reaffirm my feelings that God intended children to be conceived in marriage, but that his teacher has made a wonderful decision that honors God in choosing to continue her pregnancy.

 

i would be very upset if i knew a teacher were fired for conceiving a child out of wedlock!

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My great grandfather was a teacher his whole life in various one room school houses in my area. When he was teaching in the 1920's and later, it was actually grounds for firing for him to call on a girl during the week. He was only allow to "visit" a girl during the proper time of the week, which I think was over the weekend. If you were a woman and found to be visiting a man during the week or :eek:with child, this was grounds for termination.

 

You also had to be in order financially (no debt, savings in the bank) and under no circumstances were you allowed to be in any situation considered to be improper legally or morally. Mishandling of these were grounds for termination.

 

My great aunt (his daughter) found this in an article in her attic and shared it with me. Boy times have changed.......

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I don't usually discuss the morality of these issues with people because it opens a can of worms. I will say though that I don't think it would bother me that these women are teaching little ones because usually marriage isn't something kids think of. By this I mean, I don't think little kids would notice that Miss Somone isn't wearing a wedding ring.

Something to think about.

 

The few times that children of friends of ours have been in the situation, the kids are very aware that Miss Smith is not married. One class even had a little shower of sorts because the teacher didn't have a spouse. How the individual families address this is their own concern. But kids, especially elementary age, today do know about their teachers and whether they're married or not, have other kids, etc. The teachers seem to be more open than they were when we were kids.

 

On a side note, one of the high school teachers in our area was dismissed recently for running an escort service. She'd been running it for years and started teaching more recently. Hmmm, guess that background check wasn't very thorough.

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The other situations I'd be more sympathetic to, but the ones who made the choice to pregnant and not married, yeah, I'd have trouble with that.
So you'd rather they'd had abortions? It seems to be hypocritical to say that they should bear their children, but that they should lose their jobs for doing so.
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I think the assumption that the women in question are "sleeping around" is a pretty big assumption.

 

It wouldn't bother me unless the teacher was discussing it with her elementary-aged class. I would bet most of the kids wouldn't notice whether or not she was married.

 

It's a public school and religious morals shouldn't come into play.

 

I'm also a bit surprised that so many "pro-life"/anti-welfare people would be so judgmental about a woman's decision to keep her baby and her job.

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I'm also a bit surprised that so many "pro-life"/anti-welfare people would be so judgmental about a woman's decision to keep her baby and her job.

 

Before it became so financially lucrative in the late 40's/early 50's to push the adoption option, Catholic charities had systems in place to train unwed mothers to become nurses or teacher (the "professions" open to women of the day) and keep their babies.

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My dh and I were living together when dd happened. It wasn't unplanned - we both wanted children and had discussed it at length. I knew I would be a SAHM. We did want to be married before dd was actually born, but we also wanted our anniversary to be July 4th. It is. Dd's birthday is July 12th:)

I never wanted a big church wedding, or a wedding of any kind, really. We got married in front of dh's parents fireplace by his favorite minister growing up. It was the most wonderful day I could ever imagine, whereas the typical wedding seems like a horrific experience to me.

 

I know 3 single-by-choice mothers. There is no father, all 3 have children conceived by a donor. They were so wrapped up in careers and never found the right person before the biological clock went off. I also know several same-sex couples who used donor eggs or sperm. I know some single moms whose former husbands/boyfriends are deadbeat dads. My dh's bio dad was a deadbeat dad. He now has a wonderful stepfather who is the greatest dad ever. I came from a very very traditional family on both sides. I am really glad my dd gets to have friends from all kinds of families and can witness what a powerful thing love really is.

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I'm really really not trying to stir up controversy, I am just genuinely curious.

 

I'm also not trying to stereotype, but I'm guessing that those who advocate traditional family structures are also generally against abortion -- correct? But professional women can have an abortion and no one ever knows about it. The ones who make the choice to have the child, should they be "punished" by being fired or even just criticized (or having kids moved to other classes or whatever) for that choice? If these women are in any way treated as if they have done something wrong, what effect will that have on women who are deciding whether or not to have an abortion?

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Originally Posted by Ellie

The other situations I'd be more sympathetic to, but the ones who made the choice to pregnant and not married, yeah, I'd have trouble with that.

So you'd rather they'd had abortions? It seems to be hypocritical to say that they should bear their children, but that they should lose their jobs for doing so.

 

?? It seems to me that Ellie is against the deliberate, planned pregnancy of unmarried professionals. More accurately, I suspect, Ellie is in favor of happily, functionally married people having children.

 

That has nothing to do with her "rather they had abortions". :confused:

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?? It seems to me that Ellie is against the deliberate, planned pregnancy of unmarried professionals.
And who is going to ask the unmarried professional whether or not the pregnancy was planned? Whose job is that?
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I personally don't see what it has to do with anyone else what the lady does outside of the class room. So what is she is not married and is pregnant, how does that affect her ability to teach?

 

Yes there are many people who have children with out being married and don't to a very good job at it; there are also people who are married and do a very bad job at raising their children.

 

My own mother has an 18 year old daughter and has lived with the father for the past 19 years and not once have they married. They have a very strong relationship, but they see no reason to be married. My sister has a loving home with two parents that love her very much. How has her parents not being married affected her? It has not.

 

I my self have been with my partner for 9 years and our son is 8. I use my husbands last name and say we are married, just so that I don't have people questioning me. We may marry one day, but it is not on the top of our list of things to do. It has in no way affected our son. He has two parents that love him very much and both parents are home each night.

 

So, back to the original point of the topic, how does the unmarried pregnant teacher affect your child? It doesn't. Just let the lady alone and stop judging people who don't live the way that you do. Times are different and so are people.

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?? It seems to me that Ellie is against the deliberate, planned pregnancy of unmarried professionals. More accurately, I suspect, Ellie is in favor of happily, functionally married people having children.

 

That has nothing to do with her "rather they had abortions". :confused:

 

But how do we know these pregnancies were planned? There's nothing in the OP that indicates these women planned the pregnancy.

 

I can sit here and say shouldn't all day long, but the reality of a biological imperative is that if a person allows a situation where sexual activity could happen, then it passes from the realm of "possible" to "probable."

 

Or perhaps I just have a higher sex drive than other people. But I know that when I put myself in the way of possibility, probable is what is the most likely outcome.

 

And if we're not firing teachers or pulling our kids out of their classrooms for living or having sexual relations with their boyfriend/fiance, then we have no place firing them when what happens when you live or have sex with your boyfriend/fiance comes to fruition, so to speak. I've had two unplanned pregnancies in the context of marriage, both while actively using BC. So, it's not just as simple *in the original post* as "she decided to get pregnant on purpose and only later got around to getting married."

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And who is going to ask the unmarried professional whether or not the pregnancy was planned? Whose job is that?

 

*shrug* Not me. I was just pointing out that the response to Ellie's post was not logical.

 

I've learned to never make assumptions based on the presence or lack of a piece of paper.

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I've had two unplanned pregnancies in the context of marriage, both while actively using BC. So, it's not just as simple *in the original post* as "she decided to get pregnant on purpose and only later got around to getting married."

 

Yep. My eldest daughter was conceived while I was on Depo-Provera. My doctor was *shocked*.

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So you'd rather they'd had abortions? It seems to be hypocritical to say that they should bear their children, but that they should lose their jobs for doing so.

 

 

Hmm. I don't think I said that.

 

They could have gotten married first. Or gotten married as soon as they realized there was a baby on the way.

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Hmm. I don't think I said that.

 

They could have gotten married first. Or gotten married as soon as they realized there was a baby on the way.

I know you didn't say that... but I'm wondering what you'd have them do. The could get married of course -- assuming marriage is something they want, and they have a willing partner. If not, what then?
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Adam and Eve were not married either.

If you have a problem with it - you can discuss it with your kids, but not everyone believes in being formally married. Not everyone even wants the man in the picture. They have a right to their opinion and lifestyle choice.

 

If the teacher does her job, loves the kids, the kids love her......that's what I feel is important.

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I would be fine with it, but I know many who aren't. I work in childcare and my choices of how to have my family have resulted in others chosing not to leave their children in my care, despite the fact I am an excellent caregiver. See while I am legally still married I have been separated for 7.5 years but have chosen to have 2 more children on my own as a single parent. Many people do not agree with that choice, I have lost friendships over it etc. I also had my first two out of wedlock and got married to their dad when they were almost 1 and almost 2. I would not judge a woman for being pregnant and not married because it's not my business. From the sounds of it 2 were in commited relationships and the pregnancy just sped things up a bit. You don't know if they are in loving commited relationships, you don't know if the pregnancy was caused by rape(I have been pg and m/c due to a date rape situation at an older teen), you don't know if their chose to use a donor as I did for my youngest two. Other than knowing they are pregnant and unmarried you know nothing of the situation and really should not be judging them for it.

 

Good point. I have met 2 women who were virgins, got raped, kept the babies.

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That's assuming quite a bit about home schoolers. Even on our board, one of our dear board mates is pregnant and unmarried. Others have living arrangements that include children and no marriage, though usually either because marriage isn't allowed by the government (they are a same-sex couple) or they do not choose to go this route for their lives.

 

And while it honestly would not be my first choice for circumstances in bringing a kid into the world for quite a few reasons, I'm thrilled for the pregnant one -- mainly because SHE and her partner are thrilled.

 

(And Gail, I'm not trying to put you on the spot, but trying to put this in perspective.)

 

So Gail is not married and pregnant also?

Me too. PLANNED (gasp!) all the way!

I homeshool. I am a registered nurse. I am pregnant. I will not get married.

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So Gail is not married and pregnant also?

Me too. PLANNED (gasp!) all the way!

I homeshool. I am a registered nurse. I am pregnant. I will not get married.

 

No, Gail is married and not pregnant. I was referring to you, of course. But I didn't want Gail to think I was trying to pick apart her post or put her on the spot or that I even was requesting a response from her. I was just commenting that those of us who homeschool aren't an insulated group where such goings on :D are unheard of.

 

ETA: Oh, and Karen, to clarify: GVA = Gail in VA

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Would these situations affect your feelings if your child was in the class?

 

Yes, iI don't want that kind of example for my child. And don't for one minute think that the kids in these teachers' classes don't notice! I taught in a public elementary school for several years and I can tell you that even the kindergartners pick up on those kinds of things.

 

If your child were in the class and you decided to talk to him/her about the "error of the teacher's ways", but decide NOT to say anything to the teacher -- well, your child is going to say it for you, either to the teacher or to other kids who will say it to the teacher. :) When I was teaching in PS, I heard all kinds of interesting stories from my students -- stories that their parents would be horrified to know I had heard. ;)

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Hmm. I don't think I said that.

 

They could have gotten married first. Or gotten married as soon as they realized there was a baby on the way.

 

The last thing we need is people getting married who should NOT get married - if anything, that sets up a MORE "unhealthy" environment for the child-to-be than being raised by a single parent. As much as it may bother you, lots of people do not belong together, even though they might be having sex.

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