I need help re: extreme sibling jealousy.

[smilesonly]

nt

Edited November 19, 2011 by smilesonly

[abbeyej]

I'm so sorry... I really have no good advice (though I think making a counseling appointment right away for your dd, and perhaps later for your ds / whole family as well is a good idea), but I'm so very sorry. This just sounds so painful all around.

[sagira]

Just :grouphug: I think you are right about seeking counseling here. Perhaps for the whole family. A good counselor would be able to also give you strategies on what to do to lessen this sort of behavior at the same time as working on dd's and ds' behaviors and tangling out their emotions.

[Ottakee]

I know what you mean, we have that here with youngest dd although she is the brightest, highest functioning of all of my kids (all have special needs but she is tops in everything). She though is still very jealous.

 

Is there any way you could involve dd in something other than sports? It sounds like you are really trying, just that you have a difficult teen.

 

Hard to know when you go from the caring/encouraging/uplifting mode to flat out discpline for this attitude stuff.

[deacongirl]

Hmmmm...I am wondering because they are 2e if perfectionism is an issue for your daughter. You say she is well-rounded but hasn't really zeroed in on anything to shine at. If perfectionism is an issue maybe she is giving up on things because she can't deal with not being really good right away. I think kids don't feel worthy by getting attention and praise (see Alfie Kohn) but by setting and achieving goals and seeing the progress they are making through hard work. Perhaps she has an interest that is totally seperate from sports that she could pursue. Playing an instrument has been wonderful for my dd at reducing the bad kind of perfectionism. Maybe she is interested in painting, or theatre, or debate, or....? Something off the athletic field seems like it might make sense. And...volunteering can certainly help put things in perspective--maybe requiring her to volunteer in some area of interest would be helpful.

 

I would strongly encourage you to find a therapist familiar with the gifted who gets gifted kids. See Hoagies for ideas. Also this:

http://davincilearning.wordpress.com/2010/08/20/clues-on-finding-a-therapist-for-a-gifted-client/

 

I would read her post and her dissertation (linked to in the post) and print out the dissertation and bring it to the therapist. I would also check out this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Emotional-Intensity-Gifted-Students-Explosive/dp/1593634900

 

And this:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/creative-synthesis/201107/diagnosis-normal-bright-conflicted-and-out-sync

 

This is excellent and has some very specific suggestions:

http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10554.aspx

 

http://www.sengifted.org/articles_counseling/Webb_ExistentialDepressionInGiftedIndividuals.shtml

And probably you've read this but isn't the book Siblings without Rivalry supposed to be great?

 

This sounds like a tough situation. I think the right counselor could be helpful! Good luck!

[Starr]

This sounds like it would take family counseling to sort out. We all play into each other's feelings. But I would start with some basic respect rules. The voices, verbal and physical fighting, all have to stop. Just like we treat others. If it meant no activities for anyone for a while I would stop the disrespect for others. :grouphug:

[Kim in Appalachia]

Your dd needs to understand that no matter how angry or jealous she is, she may not take it out on her brother. She has to respect people, even those she see as better than her.

 

If you go to a counselor your dd may listen to him/her, more than she listens to you or your dh. Sometimes an outside voice is heard, KWIM?

[Joker]

I agree with others to try to steer her towards non-sports activities. Also, do you think she became physical because your son has been getting aggressive. You stated that when she takes digs at him he goes into a furious rage and has become more aggressive in his responses to her. What does that mean? My brothers and sisters and I could be downright nasty to one another but we weren't physically hurtful to one another. We're all really close now and became that way around our high school years.

[elfgivas]

:grouphug:

 

how tough.

 

i am thinking a multi pronged approach is likely needed.

 

1) each night, either you or dh spend 15 minutes alone time with dd, her choice of activities. the next night, its the other one. at the same time, the other parent has alone time with ds.

 

2) have a family rule: no put downs. at all. come up with consequences that are logical for using them.

 

3) i talk about it a lot, because it is so fabulous: Peaceful Parents, Peaceful Kids by Naomi Drew. it can transform families. she gives step by step things to do each day, and at the end of a month it is simply amazing.

 

4) zero tolerance on physical hurting.

 

what a hard thing; two very special kids having trouble ....

 

:grouphug:

ann

[gardenmom5]

(snip)

dd's jealously and emotional abuse is now fully understood and felt by ds. she makes constant digs at him. and speaks to him in a fake voice that will send him into a furious rage. she highly resents him. he's started responding to her in increasing aggressive ways, but yesterday *she* took his arm and twisted it so badly she left welts and her hand print on his arm. he made a comment to her that did not warrant-at all-the type of physical reaction she showed.

 

-just an fyi-both dc look up to my dh. he went to college on full ride academic and sports scholarships. he is a retired pro athlete, and remains competitive as his work schedule allows. however, he NEVER pushes our kids and NEVER makes a bigger deal than a normal parent reaction. his pride in our dc are far from anything performance related. he is both dc's biggest fan of whatever they do. he adores them and makes that very clear to both of them. so do i. everyday all day.

 

i didn't sleep last night as i am so upset by the deep hurts dd feels and the sadness and anger i have at her for leaving emotional and, now, physical marks on ds. my feelings are so conflicting and complicated. i talked with dd for over 2 hrs yesterday, explaining (again) how we value character-how they treat themselves and others.

 

i am open to suggestions.

 

tia-

she's older, and he's 10? how old is she? how hormonal is she? You've been bending over backwards to help her "feel better" about not being athletic. some kids are and some kids aren't.

 

while I'd help her find her talents in a non-athletic venue, this is now way past sibling rivalry and has entered into physical and mental abuse. she needs consequences to her actions. serious consequences. I'm sure her behavior isn't making her happy either.

 

I would be talking to my ped and asking for referral for a pscyhologist to help her deal with her anger and resentment. I would be letting her know in no uncertain terms that is going to end. she's out of all sports until she can act like a human being - and give very specific criteria of what that means.

 

I would suggest as part of helping her - her dad needs to really show interest and excitment for things she does well that aren't atheltic. (iow: the message that she doesn't have to be a competitive athlete to be loved.) It may also be, since she's not as atheltic, she feels she's disappointing him and won't get his approval. I'm not saying he's not sending that message already, but she's not hearing it.

 

eta: adolescent girls really value their father's opinion.

Edited November 15, 2011 by gardenmom5

[justamouse]

:grouphug:

I doubt there is anything your Dh could do to make her feel better, and it probably isn't anything he didn't or did do. It's just her.

 

It sounds like her heart is just really angry at her brother. And yes, I'd be just as upset as you are. Jealousy is a horrible thing.

 

I would tell her in no uncertain terms that she is not allowed to touch him in anger. A hug, certainly, but not anger. But physical harm to a person is Not Allowed AT ALL. That is your line. Your house is a safe place for all who live there-that includes him even though she may not like him right now.

 

No speaking disrespectfully to anyone-that includes him, too. He's feeding (and to her, justifying) her anger if he does, so he just may have to be the bigger person while she gets herself under control.

 

Absolutely counseling.

 

She has gifts, too. She doesn't need to compete with him. Can you help her find them?

[Trish]

I am very sorry to hear you're dealing with this. :grouphug::grouphug: Most of us who have more than one child have dealt with a variation, and it sounds like things are at a tough spot. Without reading others' responses I will say this:

 

Emotional abuse (however you're defining that in your household) -- maybe the taunting/fake voice/disrespectful attitude on the part of your daughter -- should NOT be tolerated. (I'll get back to that in a moment)

 

Physical reaction (on EITHER of their parts) -- ditto.

 

These things should incur automatic punishments. Personally i wouldn't let it rise to the level where it then devolves into a physical contest. I'd nip it in the bud at Dig #1 and go from there.

 

You can't control how your daughter feels about the situation, (and I appreciate that your efforts to change her outlook are falling on deaf ears), but you CAN control her external responses. If she needs to spend a LOT more time in her room, so be it. The goal is "Interact politely and respectfully. If you can't do that, then you're not fit for company just yet." Maybe encourage her to write you a letter outlining her feelings -- that may allow her to vent, and assure her you "hear her."

 

Is he doing anything to provoke her? That should be stopped too. (He is not responsible for others praising him)

 

You say she has assets of her own, is strikingly beautiful (which most people are not). Maybe BOTH your children need to visit a children's hospital, or meet some kids who have cerebral palsy or other things that make life difficult, and try to gain some perspective on how REALLY good they have it. Maybe a drive through a ghetto. An understanding that many children in this world are STARVING and DO NOT HAVE CLEAN WATER.

 

Side note: I am wondering also why this seems to be a constant issue? We play sports here too, but it isn't the only thing going on. How is it that the adulation for your son is ominpresent? If other adults are constantly harping on his wonderfulness, tell THEM to back off, you don't want this constantly emphasized.

 

Anyway, these are my initial thoughts. Your daughter will meet other people in college who are super talented in lots of ways. Time to start appreciating yourself for your own special gifts now. Even if they're not record-setting. The best saints aren't superstars, they're people who do what they do for the glory of God in hidden ways. Sorry for the religious tangent but that just popped into my head.

 

Good luck!

[Impish]

Sounds like this has been an attention getter for her, the discontent about her brother's talents result in her getting time and attention from her parents.

[SailorMom]

:grouphug:

 

I think you've already done the perfect thing by getting a counseling appointment....

 

It sounds to me like you've tried the "we all have our strengths" talks and they aren't cutting it. Perhaps hearing it from the outside, and having someone on the outside point out what she is doing to her brother, will be what she needs....

 

I think volunteer work (if she isn't already), lots of exercise, and a tough school schedule can help - simply by makig her tired and busy. Volunteer work will (well - might) also teach her that happiness is found in many different ways - most have nothing to do with our own abilities.

[elfgivas]

i asked dds ages 11 and 13 independently, and they both said the same thing in addition to what i had already said:

 

music.

 

they both suggested she become involved in learning an instrument and/or singing in a choir. when i asked why, they both said " because music makes you feel better" and "it would give her something that he doesn't do and that lets her perform in front of people and get praised".

 

they both also mentioned how when i praise them, they think i'm just being a good mom, whereas when their dad does it they think he really means it. frustrating as anything, but i think its the opposite gender thing in preteen/teen girls.....

 

and both really emphasized the zero tolerance on saying anything any way that is not kind or respectful.

 

hearing it from them was a good thing..... it means they really are learning some of this stuff!

 

:grouphug:

ann

 

ps. if they do watch television, i would go "no tv" at all for a while. the change in attitudes is amazing....

[LibraryLover]

You've gotten some good advice, so I'll try to be quick and give more of a pep talk.

 

Keep telling yourself, and your children, that each person has their own gifts to share with world and each other. Everyone has something they can contribute. Some people are good athletes, some are musicians, some paint, some have excellent memories and help keep a family from being late to everything (seriously, this is a gift!!), some write, some sing, some tell good stories and jokes and make people feel good, some people have amazing upper body strength and you know who to call when you have to move the sofa, some are animal whisperers, and some help and care for others (emotionally and physically). *Everyone* has something to contribute. Find that unique part of an individual and nurture it.

 

People who lash out are in pain. It's not right to cause others pain, but inner pain is usually the basis of anger. Some people see the cup half empty, just as a personality type. These folks need more. You didn't cause her to have certain natural tendancies and it's not easy to turn it around/improve it. But it can happen.

Edited November 15, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Lolly]

I'm going to respond differently. Just to give you something to think about. Look through the eyes of your dd. You just may be seeing things incorrectly. (I could be totally off base.) I was in what my mother would have described as the same position as your dd. (Only without the extreme age difference. My little brother and I were 18 mths apart.) I was a good athlete and student. Very. My brother was an excellent athlete and student. Very. Okay, we may have both been excellent. Little brother's sports were more public than mine. You should have heard my father go on about him. He could do no wrong. He was proud of me. I knew that. But, he was constantly bragging on my brother. My brother knew how to annoy. He was good at it. My parents never seemed to see the things he did to me. He did ask for everything I gave him. At around the age of your dd, I almost broke his ankle. I didn't mean to, but I was stopping one of his attacks on me and took him down with a kick to the legs. They, of course, did not believe that he had done anything. He had. Funny thing, he left me alone after that day. I must also let you know that he and I were the best of friends our whole lives. The relationship was just very intense and got physically violent at times...I was the close-in-age-brother he didn't have... For the most part, my parents stayed out of our fights. If they hadn't, things would have been far worse. My father, he still brags on my brother constantly. It is...quite annoying even at my age. He and I are still close.

 

So, I would look at how equal the praise and talk goes at your home. Do you and your dh tend to praise, talk about, discuss events for your son more than your dd? Does your son do things purposely to get under her skin and make her lash out at him? Truly try to look with unbiased eyes, not expecting certain results. You very well may be shocked. What to do? I would work on my relationship with dd. Make sure to have plenty of one on one time with her. Do special girl things frequently. I think my relationship with my mother kept me sane.:D

Edited November 15, 2011 by Lolly

[annandatje]

I'm going to respond differently. Just to give you something to think about. Look through the eyes of your dd. You just may be seeing things incorrectly. (I could be totally off base.) I was in what my mother would have described as the same position as your dd. (Only without the extreme age difference. My little brother and I were 18 mths apart.) I was a good athlete and student. Very. My brother was an excellent athlete and student. Very. Okay, we may have both been excellent. Little brothers sports were more public than mine. You should have heard my father go on about him. He could do no wrong. He was proud of me. I knew that. But, he was constantly bragging on my brother. My brother knew how to annoy. He was good at it. My parents never seemed to see the things he did to me. He did ask for everything I gave him. At around the age of your dd, I almost broke his ankle. I didn't mean to, but I was stopping one of his attacks on me and took him down with a kick to the legs. They, of course, did not believe that he had done anything. He had. Funny thing, he left me alone after that day. I must also let you know that he and I were the best of friends our whole lives. The relationship was just very intense and got physically violent at times...I was the close-in-age-brother he didn't have... For the most part, my parents stayed out of our fights. If they hadn't, things would have been far worse. My father, he still brags on my brother constantly. It is...quite annoying even at my age. He and I are still close.

 

So, I would look at how equal the praise and talk goes at your home. Do you and your dh tend to praise, talk about, discuss events for your son more than your dd? Does your son do things purposely to get under her skin and make her lash out at him? Truly try to look with unbiased eyes, not expecting certain results. You very well may be shocked. What to do? I would work on my relationship with dd. Make sure to have plenty of one on one time with her. Do special girl things frequently. I think my relationship with my mother kept me sane.:D

 

Thank you for your post. It has given me insight into a certain sibling situation and better ideas for dealing with it.

[OrganicAnn]

Getting some objective third party (counseling) may be beneficial. My mom claims that she doesn't favor anyone of her kids, but oh my is she wrong - totally blind to the fact she does. It used to make my sister jealous.

 

You might also find activities where both your DS and Dd are not good at (preferably non sports) and then do those things together as a bonding experience.

[deacongirl]

:grouphug:

 

 

Make sure you're praising the hard work and the results NOT praising the natural talent. That tends to make kids lash out because they know they didn't earn it. "Wow, you really nailed that piece. That had a really hard run in it. You couldn't do that shift a week ago!" Not, "You're so talented. Your music is such a gift." "Your hill runs and strides made the difference in your mile results today. Congrats!" Not, "You're such a natural runner. You really left everyone else in the dust."

 

Well said. :iagree:

[justamouse]

:grouphug:

 

Mostly just encouragement. We had a similar situation though w/o the physical feud. Dd#2 is gifted at just whatever she does (kayaking, swimming, horses, academics, music). And then dd#3 came along (they are 5.5 years apart). The one and only time they ran together was one day at the ranch. Dd#3 blew the older one out of the water. Dd#2 went to her oldest sis and apologized, "I'm sorry. I never understood what I'd done to you. Please forgive me." Actually, the three girls DID run the Bolder Boulder together a few years later. And had a blast.

 

Dd#3 does not find the academics a walk in the park as her next older sis did, but she DOES know how to work! Dd#2 didn't figure it out until jr year at the Naval Academy. It was humbling for her to realize that she was no longer special--they're all gifted there! But dd #3 has been humbled by her little bro. He's not an athlete, but a reader. She's worked so hard and then he has a higher ACT score as a freshman...

 

So, all that rambling is to say, there will always be smarter/faster/quicker/stronger people than you in the world. Even if you win the gold medal in the Olympics, chances are you'll not win it again... Your dd has got to come to grips with that. In our house, we do NOT allow baiting of siblings and we do NOT allow retaliation.

 

Make sure you're praising the hard work and the results NOT praising the natural talent. That tends to make kids lash out because they know they didn't earn it. "Wow, you really nailed that piece. That had a really hard run in it. You couldn't do that shift a week ago!" Not, "You're so talented. Your music is such a gift." "Your hill runs and strides made the difference in your mile results today. Congrats!" Not, "You're such a natural runner. You really left everyone else in the dust."

 

So true! It was hard for me to learn to praise the hard work-the effort, but I agree, it's so needed.

[smilesonly]

nt:grouphug:

Edited November 19, 2011 by smilesonly

[Katy]

Thoughts: her social skills might be the cause of the jealousy. She's interested in being popular, athletic kids are more popular, and the thing that makes her stand out is that her dad was a pro athlete NOT his smarts, but she doesn't have outstanding ability the way her brother clearly does. Or maybe she DOES have the ability, she just isn't working at the one activity with as much focus as her brother.

 

Secondly: the selfishness/self interest thing concerns me a little bit because of its inherent lack of morality more than anything else. if you're a religious family I would bring a LOT of scripture about this into play. she's being extremely selfish, entitled, and is NOT being loving at all, and there are many bible verses about that type of thinking that might at least make her feel an urge to change. even the passages about sibling rivalry and how they have changed the world (this sort of envy is arguably the root cause of the religious wars we've been involved in for years, for example).

 

if your family is not religious, but open to spirituality, perhaps introduce the concept that everything in life has a purpose and figure out what the purpose of her going through this struggle must be. She needs to learn something from it, and apart from understanding the motivations behind her jealousy, that's going to be difficult for anyone but her to decipher.

 

If you're not open to spiritual routes to solving this at all, then I would make sure the therapist is a COGNITIVE therapist. Cognative therapy is more focused on correcting wrong thoughts and therefore behavior than it is in endlessly analyzing all the ways you have been wronged, so you end up more empowered to take control of your behavior and less feeling like a victim. Since she's been wallowing in the victim role a bit, that seems like the best route.

[gardenmom5]

(snip)

-my mom plays favorites-she always has. she plays favorites with her grand children. i have intentionally sought counseling to be sure i am not becoming my mom-especially in the area of mothering.

(snip)

 

upon the advice of a wtmer, dh and i are getting counseling first, then dd and finally ds. she has been bullied by both adults and other girls, so i am heading down tomorrow to a free clinic for advice on stopping the bullying cycle.

 

(snip).

 

what's her relationship with her grandmother like? what's your son's relationship with her like?

remember, all (good) moms second guess themselves. it is probably one of our worst faults, always wondering what we should have done "better". cut yourself some slack. you may not know how to "fix" this yet, but you are in there trying.

 

the fact your dd has been bullied, is a whole new facet. is there any current bullying going on? she would probably greatly benefit from counseling for that. as a pp said, therapy focused on changing her thought/behavior patterns instead of "woes" would be very beneficial. it's actually constructive.

Edited November 18, 2011 by gardenmom5

[ChandlerMom]

I hope the counseling is helpful for dd. I wouldn't worry about it being you or dh's "fault" -- some kids are just wired to be more sensitive or see life thru certain glasses. Taking the initiative to get some outside help is great.

 

My parents were of the "let the kids work it out" mentality (though otherwise very involved parents) and although nothing as bad as you are seeing happened, it definitely is something I chose to do differently as a parent. The way I see it, both of your children deserve to feel safe and valued in your home. NO ONE has a right to harm or devalue your child -- even their sibling. Especially their sibling. I've made it abundantly clear to my kids at an early age that I will NEVER let ANYONE hurt them, including each other. Absolute ZERO tolerance. For me this is a "your life as you know it will crash to a halt if you harm your sibling" thing. That only works if you can say it, mean it, and follow through.

 

Maybe remind them that they are siblings but also your children. By that I mean, "He is my son. How dare you hurt my child? I would never let someone come into our home and hurt you like that, because you are my daughter. So why would it be ok for YOU to harm my child?" Sometimes they forget that. Similarly, sometimes they forget "dad" is also your husband.

 

I agree with a pp that it sounds like your dd has learned her bad behavior gets attention as does playing the "I'm not special enough" victim. You cannot reward abuse behavior by trying to "balance out" the accolades. The reality is your ds is better at sports than your dd. She needs to learn to deal with that. Maybe even find it in herself to be proud of him. Trying to make everyone equally gifted doesn't work because it just isn't true. Life's just not fair that way.

 

Do you praise results or effort? Praising achievement is a no-no as talent is something the kids cannot control, but praising effort and persistence is. We also make a big point about how we can't always control how we FEEL and feelings are never good or bad, but we certainly ARE responsible for how we act on those feelings.

 

You will also probably need to up your supervision. That may mean your kids cannot be left alone together for a while. At all. Would you let an abusive stranger doing the same things as your dd be left alone with your ds? Why os the fact they are related make a difference? Start with every interaction being in sight, then earshot, until they earn your trust back.

 

If dd is 15yo, it may also be a good time to really talk about what kind of person she wants to be. What is a good person? A kind person? Maybe journaling about her feelings would help? Maybe discussing each day what things she did that she was proud of and what things she wants to do better. She may already feel great shame about her actions and needs productive ways to handle that. Modeling your own anger management can help -- speak your internal dialog. Ask her to brainstorm about what she can do to calm down.

 

There are probably lots of little tweaks to your family dynamics that the counsellor can suggest. Kudos to you for taking this seriously.

 

ETA: rereading your last post... sounds like you are making positive changes. If dd was bullied, it could be she identifies strength with the bullies (rather be a bully than a victim). My friend's mother grew up watching her dad beat her mom and identified more with the dad and thought her mom was "weak". She could never criticize the abuser's actions (and no shocker later abused my friend as a child).

 

I would watch out on going too 180 on the "zero tolerance" -- no social life for a year may be unrealistic. You also need to make sure your goals are attainable by extreme supervision -- you need to catch them before it escalates to teach them how to back it down. The abuse and anymosity are habits now and will take time and focus to break.

 

Again, good luck!!!

Edited November 18, 2011 by ChandlerMom