While Teachers Take Pay Cuts

[Slartibartfast]

Makes you wonder who is really interested in student performance and how to best help them achieve success.

 

It is concerning, as kalanamak stated, there is a revolving door of failure after failure effecting many districts.

 

I don't buy that all teachers are horrible, I went to a good school district, I know what that looks like.

 

But why can some districts not succeed no matter how much they throw at the issue? Kansas City, MO and Detroit are two examples. KCMO has no accreditation come January, that is a serious issue.

 

It is difficult to blame teachers when 1/3 of the schools were closed and many lost their jobs. It hasn't helped.

 

What isn't working?

 

Can it really be the teachers or the bureaucratic nonsense that they have to deal with everyday? I know people who had some interest in getting an educational license only to be appalled at the ridiculousness teachers are subjected to and decided it wasn't worth it. Districts are constantly experimenting with method and curriculum just as we are, obviously they are doing it with a much larger budget than ours.

 

How much say do the teachers really have in the classroom? These two districts in particular, have struggled for years...I don't really believe it must be "the teachers"

 

I find the finger pointing to be a bit tiresome when I have seen that go on in that district as long as I can remember, who has real solutions?

 

If you walked into one of those districts as superintendent today what would you do differently?

Edited September 29, 2011 by Sis

[kitten18]

No it is not.

 

 

Soldiers police their own, they maintain standards, they kick out those who do not perform. Teachers do none of the above, I wish they did, I would hold them in far higher esteem if they did but they absolutely refuse. There is no comparison between servicemen and teachers on the level described.

They are at the bottom, they cannot change things from the bottom up.

 

YOU. DO. NOT. GET. IT!!!

 

It starts at the TOP. The president, the secretary of education (all of his underlings), the state secretaries of education (all their underlings), state-level educational philosophy people, school superintendents (and all the assistant superintendents).

The teachers do. not. have. control.

 

:001_rolleyes:

[kitten18]

When I was a teen, my mom would often say to me, "You always have to have the last word." I grew out of that. Some people don't. Just sayin'.

 

 

You're right, I should just leave it alone.

[seraphina]

Open house for my ds (13) was a few weeks ago, he is an 8th grader. He is in a new program at the school, the program just started so we were very interested in what methods were going to be used and how the classes were going so far. There are 29 kids in his program, it is a class that combines technology. Four sets of parents showed up to open house. Our oldest ds (15) is in high school, in all advanced classes, there was not a spare seat in most of his classrooms. Nearly all the parents showed up. Through the years I have gone to many open houses, in the elementary years a good majority of parents show up. I have noticed parental involvement goes down through the years except in the gifted program. I have to wonder if many of these kids do so well because of the parental involvement, yes they are brilliant kids but the majority of them have more involvement than kids in regular classrooms. The biggest factor in a child's academic success is parental involvement. Trust me kids who drop out of school have amazing teachers but since their parents don't care, why should the kids?

[Slartibartfast]

No it is not.

 

 

Soldiers police their own, they maintain standards, they kick out those who do not perform. Teachers do none of the above, I wish they did, I would hold them in far higher esteem if they did but they absolutely refuse. There is no comparison between servicemen and teachers on the level described.

 

KCMO had massive teacher lay offs.

[Nakia]

You're right, I should just leave it alone.

 

Listen, I only know because I've tried again and again, and you just cannot win. It only served to make me want to bang my head on a wall. You and I know you are absolutely right. That's all that matters, right? :lol:

[kitten18]

Listen, I only know because I've tried again and again, and you just cannot win. It only served to make me want to bang my head on a wall. You and I know you are absolutely right. That's all that matters, right? :lol:

Yes, Thank You. :lol::lol::lol:

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, I wanted to tell you. We get Men's Journal and Alex was on the cover of the last issue.:tongue_smilie:

Edited September 29, 2011 by kitten18

[leeannpal]

Yes, Thank You. :lol::lol::lol:

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, I wanted to tell you. We get Men's Journal and Alex was on the cover of the last issue.:tongue_smilie:

 

Yes, thank you for standing up for all the teachers that do actually give a darn:)

[Nakia]

Yes, Thank You. :lol::lol::lol:

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, I wanted to tell you. We get Men's Journal and Alex was on the cover of the last issue.:tongue_smilie:

 

 

Yep, seen it, read it, drooled...

[kalanamak]

If it makes anyone feel better, my dh (an administrator) is taking a pay cut and benefits cut, and the teachers didn't take it.

 

I am reminded of the Tolstoy line about all happy school districts are alike, and every unhappy school district is unhappy in its own way.

 

Supers near me make 4+ times what I do, and you cannot tell me they have as much training as I did, nor that they are more clever. Given how long they stay, I think they are all good snow-jobbers.

[pqr]

They are at the bottom, they cannot change things from the bottom up.

 

YOU. DO. NOT. GET. IT!!!

 

It starts at the TOP. The president, the secretary of education (all of his underlings), the state secretaries of education (all their underlings), state-level educational philosophy people, school superintendents (and all the assistant superintendents).

The teachers do. not. have. control.

 

:001_rolleyes:

 

 

That is a cop out and I suspect you know it.......but I will let you have the last word where you explain how a profession that refuses to maintain or even ask for standards; a profession that fails to perform the duties for which its members receive pay; a profession that refuses to see under-performers fired; that demands more and more money yet produces worse and worse results; that has had a part in making the US ps system a laughing stock around the globe is really a pure as driven snow and has no means to actually help ensure that children in this country receive a good education. I leave it to you but I doubt I will find any excuses too convincing.

 

Wishing you the best.

[kitten18]

That is a cop out and I suspect you know it.......but I will let you have the last word where you explain how a profession that refuses to maintain or even ask for standards; a profession that fails to perform the duties for which its members receive pay; a profession that refuses to see under-performers fired; that demands more and more money yet produces worse and worse results; that has had a part in making the US ps system a laughing stock around the globe is really a pure as driven snow and has no means to actually help ensure that children in this country receive a good education. I leave it to you but I doubt I will find any excuses too convincing.

 

Wishing you the best.

You are talking about the NEA, ps teachers and the NEA are not the same thing.

[8circles]

OP, to say its outrageous is an understatement. I really can't comprehend how those things happen.

 

I'm not sure how to say what I want to say or if it will come across properly.

 

I'm not anti-teacher. One of my best friends is a teacher, my SIL is a teacher, my mom was a teacher, & my favorite aunt was a teacher. Just to name a few. They are lovely people & wonderful teachers.

 

If I were a teacher I would absolutely be fed-up with some of the seemingly anti-teacher comments. I totally get how you guys feel, I think.

 

I understand that there are some wonderful, caring, talented, hard-working teachers out there. I understand that some school districts make the job of the teacher virtually impossible. I understand that it isn't fair to broad-brush all districts as failing teachers. However. I also don't think it is fair to broad-brush all districts as overwhelmingly good teachers crippled by the admin. I don't think either one is true & arguing which is more prevalent is kind-of pointless. I think there are enough of each kind to make both sides of this argument somewhat right. My personal experience happens to be with not-good teachers under irresponsible admin. Teachers in my district are paid very well. Very. Yet I wouldn't trust them to actually teach my children anything of any worth. I didn't set out to HS from the get-go - I would love for my kids to go to PS. I might actually get something done around the house. LOL!

[goldberry]

No it is not.

 

 

Soldiers police their own, they maintain standards, they kick out those who do not perform. Teachers do none of the above, I wish they did, I would hold them in far higher esteem if they did but they absolutely refuse. There is no comparison between servicemen and teachers on the level described.

 

The soldiers in the field work under the standards and with the tools given them by those higher up the chain. That is who the teacher is equivalent to in this scenario. Is that the problem, are you equating the teacher with the general? Because that's not where they fit in the system. They don't get to set the standards. They don't get to pick the tools. They don't get to kick each other out for heavens sake. THAT AUTHORITY IS NOT THEIRS. AND WHAT AUTHORITY THEY DID HAVE HAS BEEN TAKEN AWAY FROM THEM.

 

There is, in fact, a very accurate comparision when trying to hold an entire group responsible for something that is not in their power to change or control.

 

Folks, sorry for what this turned into. I was interested in pointing out the disparity in how teachers are treated as compared to how those higher up and WITH EVEN MORE AUTHORITY AND CONTROL are not held accountable. Apparently this point was missed, or more accurately, intentionally overlooked because it clearly did not fit a preconceived prejudice.

 

So...moving on!

[ColoNative]

I was a teacher several years ago - and there are some wonderfully talented teachers and there are those who should never set foot in a classroom. Many teachers in my district were tenured, so no one could touch them - they had the attitude they could do whatever they wanted. They didn't care about teaching the kids, didn't care about teaching - were just glad they collected a paycheck and didn't have to do much for it. That is one aspect of what unions have done for education. Yes, they have done some good things, but also created some monsters.

 

I think parents are also largely to blame for the lack of education. In my classroom, I had about 1/3 of the parents who couldn't even read - didn't want to read, and asked me to meet after school to help their students read their homework, etc. And I had 30 students! I guess if I had all the time in the world, I could do this. And testing did matter in my school - bonuses were awarded to teachers for good testing scores. You can guess I never got much in the way of bonuses. I couldn't make up for the lack of support from home, no matter how much I worked with all 30 kids.....so, it's not as easy to place blame as it sounds....I worked WAY over 40 hours a week, met with students, parents, etc. to help them in any way I could. And I burned out. I now homeschool my children and I will NEVER go back to teaching! It's not worth it - it's like a losing battle on all fronts....

 

The system is broken and a school full of excellent teachers is not going to fix the problem.....

 

Melody

[Slartibartfast]

The soldiers in the field work under the standards and with the tools given them by those higher up the chain. That is who the teacher is equivalent to in this scenario. Is that the problem, are you equating the teacher with the general? Because that's not where they fit in the system. They don't get to set the standards. They don't get to pick the tools. They don't get to kick each other out for heavens sake. THAT AUTHORITY IS NOT THEIRS. AND WHAT AUTHORITY THEY DID HAVE HAS BEEN TAKEN AWAY FROM THEM.

 

There is, in fact, a very accurate comparision when trying to hold an entire group responsible for something that is not in their power to change or control.

 

Folks, sorry for what this turned into. I was interested in pointing out the disparity in how teachers are treated as compared to how those higher up and WITH EVEN MORE AUTHORITY AND CONTROL are not held accountable. Apparently this point was missed, or more accurately, intentionally overlooked because it clearly did not fit a preconceived prejudice.

 

So...moving on!

 

Also not to mention, we were discussing inner-city schools. I don't think anyone who knows what they were talking about would just finger-point at the teachers in those districts.

 

It is over-simplifying a complex situation. I don't think it would be fair to blame the parents either.

 

We are all in a place of privilege. We are educating our children ourselves, what do we know about the struggles people face working 3 or 3 jobs while trying to make sure their kids not in a gang or worry about them getting shot.

 

No, I don't think teachers are "the problem" in those districts. I think Mr. Covington needs to get over himself, pull his head out and think of the children for a change.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Sis

[Rosie_0801]

That is a cop out and I suspect you know it.......but I will let you have the last word where you explain how a profession that refuses to maintain or even ask for standards; a profession that fails to perform the duties for which its members receive pay; a profession that refuses to see under-performers fired; that demands more and more money yet produces worse and worse results; that has had a part in making the US ps system a laughing stock around the globe is really a pure as driven snow and has no means to actually help ensure that children in this country receive a good education. I leave it to you but I doubt I will find any excuses too convincing..

 

You haven't provided a full solution either. Firing crappy teachers doesn't populate schools with great teachers. Now I don't understand your school districts and exactly what your administrators are meant to be doing, but looking at our own system I think step one would be to allow education students to flunk out. There shouldn't be any shame in a beginning teacher being a beginner, because no one can graduate from college with ten years of experience, but you shouldn't be able to get your teaching license if you flunk classes. If I were a teacher, I wouldn't be in any hurry to get poor teachers fired either. Who would they be replaced with?

 

But ultimately I think it comes back to parents because the children are theirs. Anyone who has ever had children knows that a parent does not have complete control over their children, but a parent can make choices. A parent can choose to complain to the school so whoever does the hiring learns to avoid applicants who say things like "I believe students should be challenged." A parent can choose to learn about education so they know the difference between a good and bad one. A parent can choose to stick with the devil they know or can choose to take an alternative path. The best school is not necessarily the one with the newest carpet...

 

Rosie

[FO4UR]

Re the OP: Not surprised, even though it's unbelievable!

 

 

 

That is a cop out and I suspect you know it.......but I will let you have the last word where you explain how a profession that refuses to maintain or even ask for standards; a profession that fails to perform the duties for which its members receive pay; a profession that refuses to see under-performers fired; that demands more and more money yet produces worse and worse results; that has had a part in making the US ps system a laughing stock around the globe is really a pure as driven snow and has no means to actually help ensure that children in this country receive a good education. I leave it to you but I doubt I will find any excuses too convincing.

 

Wishing you the best.

 

 

Completely anecdotal:

 

I've met many PS teachers who are knowledgeable, talented, driven, experienced, skilled, AWESOME teachers! When I tell them I HS, they nod their head and share with me how great that is for my dc...and how terribly their hands are tied in teaching their own classrooms.

 

How many professions require so much education/training, and then are so incredibly micro-managed that the professional teacher can be in a position where she *sees* a problem, *knows* how to fix it, but does not have the *power* to enact that change...in her own classroom??? If I were in a job like that, I'd quit...and freelance....oh, wait...:001_huh::auto::tongue_smilie:

 

 

Generally speaking, the people who have the most intimate contact with the actual children should have the most power to say what goes on in their education. As the PS system stands today, they have the least...if any at all...

 

ETA: I mean that parents and teachers know the kids best. They should hold the power, if not individually at least collectively. This needs to happen at a local level.

 

 

The OP of this thread gives a good hint at what needs-a-changing.

Edited September 29, 2011 by 3blessingmom

[justamouse]

Re the OP: Not surprised, even though it's unbelievable!

 

Completely anecdotal:

 

I've met many PS teachers who are knowledgeable, talented, driven, experienced, skilled, AWESOME teachers! When I tell them I HS, they nod their head and share with me how great that is for my dc...and how terribly their hands are tied in teaching their own classrooms.

How many professions require so much education/training, and then are so incredibly micro-managed that the professional teacher can be in a position where she *sees* a problem, *knows* how to fix it, but does not have the *power* to enact that change...in her own classroom??? If I were in a job like that, I'd quit...and freelance....oh, wait...:001_huh::auto::tongue_smilie:

 

 

Generally speaking, the people who have the most intimate contact with the actual children should have the most power to say what goes on in their education. As the PS system stands today, they have the least...if any at all...

 

The OP of this thread gives a good hint at what needs-a-changing.

That is NOT the case here, where Christie is toe to toe with the teacher's union in Jersey.

 

They HATE me. I get comments from all but very few teachers that I know well, and personally.

 

They see me as taking away from them, and they tell me, to my face. They hate the parochial schools, they hate the charter schools.

 

Now, my Dd is in an awesome school and I like *most* of her teachers, but some of them just should NOT be there. Matter of fact, Dd's one teacher, who is I would say almost a friend (to her), will tell her, don't take that class, he does NO teaching. And, not no teaching as in he lectures and makes them figure it out, meaning, kids bring in food, he gives them As and the WHOLE SCHOOL knows it and does nothing because he's got tenure. Worse, he's a geometry teacher.

 

So, there's no, "All teachers are wonderful and it's the administration."

Edited September 29, 2011 by justamouse

[3andme]

Here's an interesting article related to the original topic of the superintendent's pay. This pattern of poor performers being terminated, receiving large severance packages, and then being rehired by a different district for higher pay is fairly common.

 

We had a similar problem here in Seattle where the superintendent was recently fired and yet became one of 2 finalists for the top job in the troubled Newark NJ district and is now in contention for a job in Florida. Of course, I've seen the same thing happen several times in the corporate world but at least it's not at taxpayer's expense. Really makes you wonder about the efficacy of the hiring process.

[Aubrey]

I am certain that she is tired of it, I also have no doubt that she is a good teacher (there are many) but that changes not the fact that teachers are paid to provide an education and are failing in that. This is the 800 lb gorilla in the room.

 

I make absolutely no apologies for attacking a profession that is demonstrably failing in its duty.

 

We hs for a myriad of reasons, one of which is that many of the teachers that I know (not all, perhaps not even the majority, but certainly many) have no business in the classroom and frankly are not competent to educate. They may have all the diplomas in the world but a 5 min conversation was all it took to demonstrate, to me, that I did not want them teaching my children.

 

Let me hear the outrage from teachers about the failure of the profession to maintain standards!

 

I have told this story once before, I have a report card from a teacher with spelling mistakes on it! She had NO business in the classroom yet had been teaching for years.

 

I feel the same way about bankers, but they get better pay & less judgement from the rest of society. So I think if teachers were smart, they'd go into banking. Or politics--plenty of judgement, but fat paychecks & no oversight.

[Aubrey]

They are at the bottom, they cannot change things from the bottom up.

 

YOU. DO. NOT. GET. IT!!!

 

It starts at the TOP. The president, the secretary of education (all of his underlings), the state secretaries of education (all their underlings), state-level educational philosophy people, school superintendents (and all the assistant superintendents).

The teachers do. not. have. control.

 

:001_rolleyes:

 

Come on! Teachers have as much control as soldiers! Haven't you ever seen a guy in battle turn to the guy next to him & say, "Dude. You're a terrible shot. Go home!"

 

I think teachers, too, should be walking out of their classrooms, abandoning their students and their planning periods to police other teachers. They can walk into another teacher's classroom, take a look around, & say, "Dude. Nobody understands the junk you're saying about Algebra, & frankly, nobody cares. That means you're a FAILURE. Go home!"

[Aubrey]

So, there's no, "All teachers are wonderful and it's the administration."

 

Oh, gosh. Nobody said THAT! *Any* oversimplification of the problem--from admin to teachers to parents is unproductive.

 

If it were up to me, I'd scrap the whole thing. Parents would suddenly HAVE to parent. It might even help improve the economy if 50% of the workforce suddenly had to stay home w/ their kids.

[cdrumm4448]

In the past three years, my husband and I have had several teacher conferences at our local high school. Seven out of the eight teachers thanked us profusely for making the effort to come in and talk with them. They noted that parents seldom did this anymore.

 

I take issue with this. In our public school district conferences are entirely voluntary. No one seems to really care if parents show up or not. If you do show up, you get your 5-7 minutes. The teachers around here claim they want to hear from parents, but when my SIL repeatedly emails her kids' teachers for information or updates on assignments or tests (the teachers request email as their preferred method of communication), they don't respond. Ever. And the grades still aren't posted online in a timely manner.

 

You can't expect parental involvement, then ignore those that do make requests of a teacher's time. At least, that's the way it is around here.

[kalanamak]

Just out of curiosity, when did p-t conferences for reg. ed. in HIGH SCHOOL become expected? Back in the late Jurassic, my parents weren't deemed 'bad parents' because they didn't schedule a p-t conference on Conference Night in jr or sr high school...there was no Conference Night.

 

Ours stopped at the end of 6th grade, when you no longer went to a local school, but the single, big Jr High down town. I believe someone would have met with my folks if they asked, but there was no need. I don't know that for us there was even a need in grade school. But that was in the dark ages.

 

I went back to the school in 2002 to peek, and was shocked by the noise, chaos, and amount of junk in each classroom. The under-the-building play area we used in the rain was completely filled in with admin offices. This must have sextupled the square feet of admin.

 

I asked a friend of mine who went there about this, and she, sotto voce, told me "you will be shocked when your child gets to school". It was just one red flag that forced me onto the exit of homeschooling.

[seraphina]

It's difficult to get a conference slot for my ps kids. I have already signed up for my elementary kids, they had sign-ups the night before school started at meet the teacher night. Middle school is done and since my son is special needs I have already been to open house and had a meeting with all my son's teachers, conferences are next month. They actually take two days off for conferences. The teachers are there from morning until night on those days. The high school conferences are hard to schedule. There are not enough slots and they fill up immediately. Most teachers though find time to meet with every parent. My son is a straight A student but I feel that I should still go and meet his teachers. It shows my son I support him and that I care and honestly I love hearing how good he is doing.

 

The point is that not enough parents take time to attend conferences or open house or even check and see how their kids are doing in school. So many schools now have grade online so you can check your students progress. Email has made being involved all that much easier. I hear people say they don't have the time or they don't think it's that important but call me crazy I think there is nothing more important than our kids.

[8circles]

Oh, gosh. Nobody said THAT! *Any* oversimplification of the problem--from admin to teachers to parents is unproductive.

I think part of the problem is that lots of people *do say that.

 

If it were up to me, I'd scrap the whole thing. Parents would suddenly HAVE to parent. It might even help improve the economy if 50% of the workforce suddenly had to stay home w/ their kids.

 

I totally agree with the bold.

[DawnM]

:iagree:

 

It is quite dismaying to see so many bash teachers over and over again.

 

Teachers' hands are tied in many ways. I worked in public education for 16.5 years. I loved the kids, I hated the regulations and the constant change in curriculum and methods. Every year was some new big thing we had to implement and out went the old books and in came the new.

 

Dawn

 

I was a teacher several years ago - and there are some wonderfully talented teachers and there are those who should never set foot in a classroom. Many teachers in my district were tenured, so no one could touch them - they had the attitude they could do whatever they wanted. They didn't care about teaching the kids, didn't care about teaching - were just glad they collected a paycheck and didn't have to do much for it. That is one aspect of what unions have done for education. Yes, they have done some good things, but also created some monsters.

 

I think parents are also largely to blame for the lack of education. In my classroom, I had about 1/3 of the parents who couldn't even read - didn't want to read, and asked me to meet after school to help their students read their homework, etc. And I had 30 students! I guess if I had all the time in the world, I could do this. And testing did matter in my school - bonuses were awarded to teachers for good testing scores. You can guess I never got much in the way of bonuses. I couldn't make up for the lack of support from home, no matter how much I worked with all 30 kids.....so, it's not as easy to place blame as it sounds....I worked WAY over 40 hours a week, met with students, parents, etc. to help them in any way I could. And I burned out. I now homeschool my children and I will NEVER go back to teaching! It's not worth it - it's like a losing battle on all fronts....

 

The system is broken and a school full of excellent teachers is not going to fix the problem.....

 

Melody

[southernm]

Back to the original question: Detroit is so desperate they will try anything. Of course, In MY opinion, the city council needs an overhaul as well. Anyone that watches the Detroit news on a daily basis can see just how bad it is there. The entire city is at odds and it will take a great effort to bring it back. The corruption is unbelievable. They are still charging and convicting people from the Kilpatrick mess. I'm sure, with their current image and track record, it is difficult to get anyone to take on the school system.

[DawnM]

I would never say that ALL of any particular group is wonderful. There are bad doctors and bad lawyers and bad teachers/professors. That is life.

 

As a school counselor I would never bash a teacher in front of a parent or a student and I find it distasteful and unprofessional that this teacher did.

 

However, I would steer a student into a challenging teacher's class for sure. You can build one person up without tearing down the other.

 

Dawn

 

 

 

That is NOT the case here, where Christie is toe to toe with the teacher's union in Jersey.

 

They HATE me. I get comments from all but very few teachers that I know well, and personally.

 

They see me as taking away from them, and they tell me, to my face. They hate the parochial schools, they hate the charter schools.

 

Now, my Dd is in an awesome school and I like *most* of her teachers, but some of them just should NOT be there. Matter of fact, Dd's one teacher, who is I would say almost a friend (to her), will tell her, don't take that class, he does NO teaching. And, not no teaching as in he lectures and makes them figure it out, meaning, kids bring in food, he gives them As and the WHOLE SCHOOL knows it and does nothing because he's got tenure. Worse, he's a geometry teacher.

 

So, there's no, "All teachers are wonderful and it's the administration."

[DawnM]

Have you met some of these parents? Are you sure that is what you want to do? :lol:

 

Oh, gosh. Nobody said THAT! *Any* oversimplification of the problem--from admin to teachers to parents is unproductive.

 

If it were up to me, I'd scrap the whole thing. Parents would suddenly HAVE to parent. It might even help improve the economy if 50% of the workforce suddenly had to stay home w/ their kids.

[8circles]

I would never say that ALL of any particular group is wonderful. There are bad doctors and bad lawyers and bad teachers/professors. That is life.

 

As a school counselor I would never bash a teacher in front of a parent or a student and I find it distasteful and unprofessional that this teacher did.

 

However, I would steer a student into a challenging teacher's class for sure. You can build one person up without tearing down the other.

 

Dawn

 

I think part of the problem is that you read the example given by mouse & call it "teacher bashing" & tearing a person down. I would call it being honest about the situation that teacher creates in his classroom. Its a shame that it happens anyway but to advocate it being a secret is a little baffling.

 

That is NOT the case here, where Christie is toe to toe with the teacher's union in Jersey.

 

They HATE me. I get comments from all but very few teachers that I know well, and personally.

 

They see me as taking away from them, and they tell me, to my face. They hate the parochial schools, they hate the charter schools.

 

Now, my Dd is in an awesome school and I like *most* of her teachers, but some of them just should NOT be there. Matter of fact, Dd's one teacher, who is I would say almost a friend (to her), will tell her, don't take that class, he does NO teaching. And, not no teaching as in he lectures and makes them figure it out, meaning, kids bring in food, he gives them As and the WHOLE SCHOOL knows it and does nothing because he's got tenure. Worse, he's a geometry teacher.

 

So, there's no, "All teachers are wonderful and it's the administration."

[angela in ohio]

Have you met some of these parents? Are you sure that is what you want to do? :lol:

 

Yep. For many students, school is their only chance to be safe, fed, and cared about. I may not use the public schools, and I think they need to be radically reformed, but I would not suggest getting rid of them. Sending them home would not change their parents.

[DawnM]

No, didn't say it would be a secret. If "EVERYONE KNOWS IT" I wouldn't have to say a word other than to suggest a different class/teacher.

 

I would just make sure said student didn't end up in his class. But the problem (as a school counselor making the schedules) is that SOMEONE has to end up there.

 

Dawn

 

PS: Adding in that I would actually get in trouble for saying to a parent what that teacher did. So, maybe I am taking that angle as well.

 

I think part of the problem is that you read the example given by mouse & call it "teacher bashing" & tearing a person down. I would call it being honest about the situation that teacher creates in his classroom. Its a shame that it happens anyway but to advocate it being a secret is a little baffling.

[8circles]

Yep. For many students, school is their only chance to be safe, fed, and cared about. I may not use the public schools, and I think they need to be radically reformed, but I would not suggest getting rid of them. Sending them home would not change their parents.

 

I think that comment was made tongue-in-cheek. I agreed with it but that's how I took it.

[angela in ohio]

The "you can't say anything negative about any teacher or you are just a teacher-basher" thing is part of the problem. Until we (and the NEA) can all admit that there are bad teachers, we aren't going to get anywhere. Public perception is *worse* because of it, too, so it isn't doing the teaching profession the favor many would think.

 

Hmmm... reminds me of homeschoolers. :D

[Heather in Neverland]

1. The single most important factor in the success of a child's education is parents/home life/family attitude regarding the importance of education.

 

2. Teacher prep programs are pathetic.

 

3. Entrance requirements for teacher prep programs are even more pathetic. All you need is a pencil.

 

4. Teacher tenure should be abolished. All it does is protect lazy teachers.

 

5. Good teachers should be paid and paid well. Bad teachers should be fired.

 

And even with all that... There will still be much failure until all parents step up and stop leaving the entire burden of education on the schools... Until all parents value education for their children as much as they do watching Real Housewives of New Jersey.

 

As far as Detroit is concerned, that system is irrevocably broken. I worked there. I know. They can hire the best of the best superintendent and it still won't get any better.

[angela in ohio]

I think that comment was made tongue-in-cheek. I agreed with it but that's how I took it.

 

I didn't take it that way. It is a common comment I hear from homeschoolers.

[8circles]

I didn't take it that way. It is a common comment I hear from homeschoolers.

 

I've heard it from homeschoolers & non-homeschoolers but not often. I still don't think her comment was serious - she was a teacher.

 

Anyway, we're both just guessing. :tongue_smilie:

[angela in ohio]

Heather's list is accurate. I would only add "and socioeconomic status" to number one.

[Impish]

I have a friend that's a teacher in elementary, and a cousin who teaches in high school, along with her dh.

 

Honestly, I think the biggest problem in ps is that teachers aren't expected to just teach anymore, they're also expected to parent.

 

So many kids aren't getting what they need at home, one way or the other. Behavioural problems abound. It makes it next to impossible to actually teach anything when you have kids that are so incredibly disruptive to the class that disciplining them takes up the majority of time and attention of the class. Add in admin that doesn't support the teachers by helping out on these discipline issues (ie suspension) and its a recipe for disaster.

 

What really kills me is when I hear parents complaining that they can't wait for holidays to be over so they can send their kid to school b/c the parent can't handle them ft, but they expect a teacher to manage their child better, in a room with 30 or so other kids!

 

Maybe if kids showed up ready to learn...fed, rested, behaving appropriately, teachers would stand a chance at being able to educate. In today's situation, though, its nuts.

[angela in ohio]

Add in admin that doesn't support the teachers by helping out on these discipline issues (ie suspension) and its a recipe for disaster.

 

It's common for teachers to blame something like this on the administration not caring, but the fact is that there are laws about how long you can suspend a student and which kiddos can be suspended. It is not the administration turning their backs, their hands are often tied by threats of lawsuits, laws, etc.

 

The fact is that the teacher colleges teach the method of the moment, and the one right now is mainstreaming. Add to that the laws for students of special education students, and you end up with students in the regular ed classrooms who are disruptive. That's not going to change anytime soon, though. So teachers are going to have to come up with discipline policies and skills to handle it.

[DawnM]

Yes, it was meant somewhat tongue in cheek and somewhat serious.

 

It isn't because I am a homeschooler, it is more because I worked in the deep inner-city.

 

Now, if we are talking about my current local high school down the street, then yes, parents need to actually parent more.

 

Dawn

 

I've heard it from homeschoolers & non-homeschoolers but not often. I still don't think her comment was serious - she was a teacher.

 

Anyway, we're both just guessing. :tongue_smilie:

[Tammyla]

Same deal here...two times in a row. The city consensus now is to hope this one completes his contract, so we don't have to pay another one to do nothing.

 

:iagree: I am spitting angry about all the waste in our local city. Super is hired. Super is a rude boor. Super quits rather than gets fired and gets a severance package. Repeat every 1-2 years.

There is something wrong with the job (impossible), the people who hire them, the slick willies who are willing to do the job, or the populace who call them unworkable. Perhaps unworkable could just mean not a patsy to special interests. Who knows what it is in each case, but it is a recurring theme: expensive, rotating "failures".

[Impish]

It's common for teachers to blame something like this on the administration not caring, but the fact is that there are laws about how long you can suspend a student and which kiddos can be suspended. It is not the administration turning their backs, their hands are often tied by threats of lawsuits, laws, etc.

 

The fact is that the teacher colleges teach the method of the moment, and the one right now is mainstreaming. Add to that the laws for students of special education students, and you end up with students in the regular ed classrooms who are disruptive. That's not going to change anytime soon, though. So teachers are going to have to come up with discipline policies and skills to handle it.

Situation I know of, the child was throwing a desk in the classroom, hitting the teacher and other students, cursing, yelling, etc.

 

Principal refused to suspend, and even told the teacher not to send the student to the office anymore b/c he wasn't going to do anything.

 

And this kid wasn't special ed. He was a bully whose mom (a teacher herself) blamed everyone else for his behaviour.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

momsquared is a teacher and is no doubt tired and annoyed of others not doing her job making make broad generalizations about it. Just as we are annoyed when those not homeschooling make broad generalizations about THAT. Maybe you should consider that making broad generalizations about a hugely complicated and overdetermined problem is not the way to go.

 

Is this a new board rule? Because if it is, I should be able to breeze through the new board in just a few minutes a day?

 

Generalizations, oversimplification and robust expression of opinion have been no stranger to the general board for the last several years. Did I miss some radical change?

 

Of course education is something that everyone has an opinion about. Because we all have first hand experience, as a student, and sometimes as a parent. Certainly as a taxpayer.

 

If it's ok to point out that some homeschoolers need to up their game and make sure they are educating their kids well (as several threads in the last few months have pointed out), then why is it off limits to say that the system of education in the US is broken and there is plenty of "blame" to go around (petty bureauracies, superintendents who aren't worth their pay, unions that prioritize the union over individual teachers and students, teachers who are just collecting a paycheck, students who don't give a darn about their education, families who don't give a darn about their kids, neighborhoods that are falling apart at the seams, etc).

 

I'm not a fan of the results of NCLB. But I also try to keep in mind that it was a bipartisan attempt to fix a system that was already failing to educate a lot of students.

 

I have a master's in education, but no classroom teaching experience. Some of the situations in which teachers are trying to educate are miserable. Many of the families want a school to achieve what they are unwilling to put forth effort for. On the other hand, there are plenty of teachers (my fellow students in the masters program) who aren't the cream of the crop and who occasionally stunned me with their lack of reading and writing ability and lack of intellectual curiosity.

 

Every business has high achievers and low achievers. But somehow it is beyond the pale to say that there are teachers who don't represent value beyond that of a babysitter. I don't get that. In the military (my employer for 17 years) there was rigorous annual evaluations (twice a year for newer/junior ranks) and exams and/or boards to determine if you would move up in rank (and pay). In some ranks and specialties, failure to be selected for promotion meant automatic dismissal. Yet in some school districts, a principal cannot observe a classroom teacher without advance permission from the teacher.

 

Do I think that teachers are single handedly ruining a generation of cherubic pupils? Of course not. But I do think that there are teachers who aren't doing a particular service to their students either.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

1. The single most important factor in the success of a child's education is parents/home life/family attitude regarding the importance of education.

 

2. Teacher prep programs are pathetic.

 

3. Entrance requirements for teacher prep programs are even more pathetic. All you need is a pencil.

 

4. Teacher tenure should be abolished. All it does is protect lazy teachers.

 

5. Good teachers should be paid and paid well. Bad teachers should be fired.

 

And even with all that... There will still be much failure until all parents step up and stop leaving the entire burden of education on the schools... Until all parents value education for their children as much as they do watching Real Housewives of New Jersey.

 

As far as Detroit is concerned, that system is irrevocably broken. I worked there. I know. They can hire the best of the best superintendent and it still won't get any better.

 

:iagree:

Yes. But it has become unacceptable to say that a family situation prevents a student from learning. All animals are equal.

[4everHis]

1. The single most important factor in the success of a child's education is parents/home life/family attitude regarding the importance of education.

 

2. Teacher prep programs are pathetic.

 

3. Entrance requirements for teacher prep programs are even more pathetic. All you need is a pencil.

 

4. Teacher tenure should be abolished. All it does is protect lazy teachers.

 

5. Good teachers should be paid and paid well. Bad teachers should be fired.

 

And even with all that... There will still be much failure until all parents step up and stop leaving the entire burden of education on the schools... Until all parents value education for their children as much as they do watching Real Housewives of New Jersey.

 

As far as Detroit is concerned, that system is irrevocably broken. I worked there. I know. They can hire the best of the best superintendent and it still won't get any better.

 

Agreeing with all your points but, as to the bold, seriously, what could be done? Even something radical? I agree with a PP that the state of the schools is just a reflection of the state of previous mayors and city councils, but how do you scrap a school system?

[justamouse]

Oh, gosh. Nobody said THAT! *Any* oversimplification of the problem--from admin to teachers to parents is unproductive.

 

If it were up to me, I'd scrap the whole thing. Parents would suddenly HAVE to parent. It might even help improve the economy if 50% of the workforce suddenly had to stay home w/ their kids.

 

It might be an oversimplification, but I hear it often enough. There is NO teaching-homeschooling or public, that is beyond honest criticism. We are doing a grave disservice to our children if we think otherwise.

 

And, that 50%--it's a Luddite concept nowadays, but I can't say I disagree with you. I've thought it often.

 

Unfortunately, I think we have a generation of parents who have no idea HOW to parent. It seems to be a skill that's been lost. And, I hold myself just as accountable, I've spent the last 21 years learning how to parent, as in the basics.

 

 

I would never say that ALL of any particular group is wonderful. There are bad doctors and bad lawyers and bad teachers/professors. That is life.

 

As a school counselor I would never bash a teacher in front of a parent or a student and I find it distasteful and unprofessional that this teacher did.

 

However, I would steer a student into a challenging teacher's class for sure. You can build one person up without tearing down the other.

 

Dawn

 

None of what the one teacher said was bashing. :confused: She honestly told my Dd that she would learn nothing. I'm from Jersey,

 

No, didn't say it would be a secret. If "EVERYONE KNOWS IT" I wouldn't have to say a word other than to suggest a different class/teacher.

 

I would just make sure said student didn't end up in his class. But the problem (as a school counselor making the schedules) is that SOMEONE has to end up there.

 

Dawn

 

PS: Adding in that I would actually get in trouble for saying to a parent what that teacher did. So, maybe I am taking that angle as well.

 

Like I said, there seems to be no one in the school that doesn't know this. It's the gorilla in the room.

Edited September 29, 2011 by justamouse

[DawnM]

I saw the news last night. They mentioned the numbers of teachers who have been laid off nationwide. It was staggering. I can't remember the exact number as I was distracted while listening, but it was high.

 

My guess is that 100% of them were last hired, first fired and not the bad teachers.

 

The problem with "just fire the bad teachers" though is the definition of a a bad teacher. It can't all be tied to test scores. There has to be a better evaluative measure.

 

 

Dawn