Question about Muslims, hijab, and women who don't cover

[twoforjoy]

I'm particularly interested, obviously, in responses from Muslims. But if anybody else knows, that's good, too. ;)

 

I was in Best Buy yesterday, and there was a Muslim family there shopping in the same aisle. The women all wore hijab. One of the older men in the family was looking at me in kind of a weird way. Maybe I just looked funny or something, but I started to wonder if maybe he thought I was being immodest because I don't cover my head. I dress pretty conservatively, and yesterday I had on jeans and a sweater, so I doubt it had anything to do with what I was wearing. (Although, it's also quite possible that he was looking at my baby, who was in a sling, or my zipper was down, or something else.)

 

So it got me wondering if, in general, Muslims who cover (or, if male, who come from backgrounds/cultures where the women cover) think that non-Muslim women who don't are being immodest. I know there have been a number of threads here which seem to indicate that a lot of Christians who practice a certain style of "modest" dress believe that women who dress differently are being immodest/inappropriate. Is a head covering, for Muslims, primarily a matter of modesty or one of devotion, or both, or something else? Are non-Muslims who don't cover their heads seen as immodest or inappropriate? Do Muslim men feel like they are being assaulted by floozies if they go out and most women have their hair showing, as I've heard some Christian men describe it (well, not exactly like that, but that seems to be the point)?

 

I hope that doesn't sound facetious, because while I'm being a bit silly, it is a genuine question. I live in an area with a large Muslim population and I have a lot of Muslims students, and it never really occurred to me before that I might somehow be offending them because I don't cover my head (not that I'd start doing it, any more than I'd start wearing long dresses everyday so as not to offend somebody who thinks women shouldn't wear pants). So I'm curious about whether that is something that Muslims feel, or whether it just doesn't bother them if non-Muslims dress differently.

[tntgoodwin]

Not sure about Muslims, but I have an Orthodox Jewish co-worker, and he has similar concepts of modesty. He has said he does not expect non-Jews to conform to his standards of modesty. It may be the same for Muslims.

[Little Nyssa]

:bigear:

[Roadrunner]

I am not Muslim, but have friends and relative who are muslim and I have done some travel. I think the best answer is there is no such thing as "muslims think this or that". They are way too diverse. I think if somebody in the western dress magically appears in the mountanous areas (which tend to be the most traditional) of certain countries, you may cause a scandal :lol:. I would be really surprised that any (O.K., never speak for 100%, keep forgeting this rule) muslim who lives in the U.S. would think much of it (you were dressed, right :lol:). I have travelled to north Africa, and let me tell you, I have seen girls on motorcyles with bellies hanging out. Let's just say, I wouldn't allow my daughters, if I had any, to dress like it. I have also seen women with head scarves and tight jeans with stomach showing and a cigarette (I have a picture of such a girl, but this particular one doesn't have a cigarette. I was actually snapping the pic of my kid and she ended up there by accident). Basically, I think a lot depends on which country they come from and yes, the culture is very different from one country to another (I don't know much about the Gulf states, which tend to be widely hated among other muslim counties for their prudeness and exporting of bad image as well as other behaviors I wouldn't want to name). It also depends on family and how religious they are. I think the short answer is no, but long answer is there is always a strange person. :)

[WishboneDawn]

One of the older men in the family was looking at me in kind of a weird way.

 

See...I would have just thought that I had a booger or something. :D

[KungFuPanda]

I don't think you'll get a definitive answer. They're people and they are all different. It's like asking what all Christian men think about XYZ.

[twoforjoy]

See...I would have just thought that I had a booger or something. :D

 

I'm pretty sure my nose was clean and my zipper was up. But, it's definitely a possibility that I just looked funny. ;)

[annandatje]

Maybe he was just enjoying looking at you because he found you attractive.

[Rivka]

It's funny that you ask this question, because I've been wondering about a similar thing. We're moving into a neighborhood where more than half the families on the street are very conservative Orthodox Jews. We've met some of our new neighbors briefly on the street, and they're as nice and friendly as can be, but our standards of dress are so different that I do kind of wonder if they're thinking "what a floozie!"

 

I typically wear jeans or bermuda shorts or khakis and a shirt - nothing revealing or risque. But of course they're in long skirts and have their elbows covered at all times, and actually I haven't yet seen anyone but very young children wearing bright colors.

 

I wouldn't change how I dress any more than you would start covering, but I do wonder if we're going to make people uncomfortable.

[Rhonda in TX]

I was at the movie theater once and saw two moms with their kids. They were obviously together. One mom was dressed in typical western dress (jeans, etc.). The other was in a hijab. Only her eyes were visible. They all appeared to be Middle Eastern. I figure if those two families would associate with each other, there must be some sort of leeway regarding other people and their beliefs. I am by no means an expert, though.

[UmMusa]

Good question! I wear a head scarf and long abaya (dress type thing) and no, I don't think twice (most of the time) of what others are wearing. I have Muslim friends who swim on the beach in front of others, some who wear typical mom/urban clothes, some who cover their faces, and some who dress as I do. To generalize, I will say that we don't hold others to our choice and faith if they are not. I'm sure some Muslims would or might tsk tsk if a fellow Muslim is walking around in shorts and a tank or something, but the conviction to cover is personal. No one makes another one do it (not in my world). Practicing your faith is personal, so no, I don't think of the general public as 'floozies'!

 

Since you asked, though, I will say that I find myself inwardly shaking my head when I see those short shorts on girls/teens. The really scantily dressed people make me feel like it's not right, but I think that could be said for most conservative minded folks. A lady dressed in pants and a shirt would not offend me and would certainly not warrant a second glance from my husband (hopefully)!

[oldskool]

I am not Muslim, but have friends and relative who are muslim and I have done some travel. I think the best answer is there is no such thing as "muslims think this or that". They are way too diverse.

 

I agree with this. There are Muslims from waaay to many places and backgrounds to come up with any generalization. There are many, many Muslims who don't cover and you just would never know that they are Muslim by simply looking at them.

 

I am a Muslim and cannot really imagine looking at someone and thinking that because they are not covering their head they are being immodest. Now sometimes I may feel the need to look away when I see a woman with their cleavage hanging out (which seems to be a trend), but I would never stare at a person more. Not covering a head, wearing shorts, t-shirts, etc? Would not phase me because that is how the majority here dresses. I think this would be true for most of the Muslims I know including my husband. The only thing that I can think of is that maybe the man hadn't been here very long/just visiting and he is still getting used to seeing women "uncovered". I guess it would be like us going to a conservative Muslim majority country and seeing women fully covered or to a nude beach in Europe and seeing people really uncovered. We tend to naturally look at things that are unfamiliar to us and may not realize at the time that we are staring or making someone else feel self-conscious.

 

Actually, I think that if he was looking at you in a weird way, maybe he was trying to figure out what the baby sling was all about. Could be that it was a new thing to see.

 

Lesley

[Skadi]

There is no one single answer to this question, since it obviously depends on the individual Muslim you're talking to. But I think it's important to point out that several imams have said that women who don't wear hijabs (regardless of religion) are inviting men to rape them, and this is exactly what is happening in Australia, France and northern Europe.

 

Imam says women are "uncovered meat" inviting rape

 

Denmark Mufti says women who do not wear headscarves are "asking for rape"

 

 

"It is not as wrong to rape a Swedish girl as it is to rape an Arab girl," says a Muslim in Sweden

 

Many European women in towns with large Muslim immigrant populations wear headscarves to try to avoid being sexually assaulted. Not every Muslim believes this, obviously, but there are quite a few Muslims in the world who believe women who do not wear scarves are immodest and therefore "asking for it." I won't even go into traditional Muslim law that requires a raped woman to produce four witnesses or else be found punishable for having premarital sex/commuting adultery in countries like Pakistan.

[Roadrunner]

There is no one single answer to this question, since it obviously depends on the individual Muslim you're talking to. But I think it's important to point out that several imams have said that women who don't wear hijabs (regardless of religion) are inviting men to rape them, and this is exactly what is happening in Australia, France and northern Europe.

 

Imam says women are "uncovered meat" inviting rape

 

Denmark Mufti says women who do not wear headscarves are "asking for rape"

 

 

"It is not as wrong to rape a Swedish girl as it is to rape an Arab girl," says a Muslim in Sweden

 

Many European women in towns with large Muslim immigrant populations wear headscarves to try to avoid being sexually assaulted. Not every Muslim believes this, obviously, but there are quite a few Muslims in the world who believe women who do not wear scarves are immodest and therefore "asking for it." I won't even go into traditional Muslim law that requires a raped woman to produce four witnesses or else be found punishable for having premarital sex/commuting adultery in countries like Pakistan.

 

So does my orthodox church :tongue_smilie:(one country in easter europe), or let me say some of the priests from my church. Some suggested that TV is a box of evil and there were members of the church at some point advocating banning it. People were entertained. I grew up at a time when women in short skirts were considered ...... (everoby got this, right?). Now, you will see half naked people on the streets, so frankly, I don't pay much attention to radicals on any side, and yes, there are plenty in the middle east and in other surprising places. :) I have heard of Imams harrasing some women on the beach in one of the muslim counties. My friend, who was present there, assures me he won't do it again, some stiches were requires thanks to aggrevated general public. So, what I am trying to say is Imams, especially with unpleasant demeanor, aren't always a good barometer of public opinion. :lol:

[staceyobu]

I would guess it was the baby sling. Surely if they are in the US, they are beyond used to uncovered women. In my experience, slings are a new and bizarre thing to a lot of people.

[mommaduck]

Not Muslim, but a headcoverer: I'm voting for it being the babysling. I get stared at with a sling on also. The headcovering thing, I'm more likely to get a glance by a Muslim (male or female) if I'm wearing a covering than if I'm not. With the women, whether Jewish, Muslim, or whatever variety of Christian or Pagan (yes, there are Pagans that cover intentionally, not just style) there's usually a curious glance and then a shared smile like we have some kind of female secret ;)

[amey311]

Since you asked, though, I will say that I find myself inwardly shaking my head when I see those short shorts on girls/teens. The really scantily dressed people make me feel like it's not right, but I think that could be said for most conservative minded folks.

 

I am politically and socially liberal. I'm agnostic. There are plenty of things I consider poor clothing choices, believe me. I don't expect jumpers :lol: but I really don't want to see people's bottoms when i'm in the grocery store.

 

ETA: on our flight home from the UK last year, there was a Muslim woman wearing the complete black covering (so I could just barely see her eyes - niqab or chadri?). I'm pretty sure she thought I was staring when we were both back at the bathroom at the same time. It wasn't the niqab. It was the jeans and sneakers I could see at the hem. I KNOW Muslim women still want to be fashionable, even when they're fully covered out of the house, but it really made me giggle inside. I always expect that if you're going to be that conservatively dressed on the outside, you must be boringly dressed underneath - long skirt (jumper?), sensible walking shoes, dull colors, etc.

Edited September 19, 2011 by amey311

[WishboneDawn]

So does my orthodox church :tongue_smilie:(one country in easter europe), or let me say some of the priests from my church. Some suggested that TV is a box of evil and there were members of the church at some point advocating banning it. People were entertained. I grew up at a time when women in short skirts were considered ...... (everoby got this, right?). Now, you will see half naked people on the streets, so frankly, I don't pay much attention to radicals on any side, and yes, there are plenty in the middle east and in other surprising places. :) I have heard of Imams harrasing some women on the beach in one of the muslim counties. My friend, who was present there, assures me he won't do it again, some stiches were requires thanks to aggrevated general public. So, what I am trying to say is Imams, especially with unpleasant demeanor, aren't always a good barometer of public opinion. :lol:

 

Indeed.

 

Can I just say Pat Robertson?

[Crimson Wife]

A question I've had for a long time is why some young Muslim women wear a hijab paired with really form-fitting clothes. I see a fair number of Muslim teenagers and 20somethings who are in skin-tight jeans, long-sleeve tops that hug every curve, and then the hijab. How is this seen as modest? :confused: I may have my hair, forearms, and calves bare, but I would say that my outfit as a whole is more modest.

[Hunter's Moon]

A question I've had for a long time is why some young Muslim women wear a hijab paired with really form-fitting clothes. I see a fair number of Muslim teenagers and 20somethings who are in skin-tight jeans, long-sleeve tops that hug every curve, and then the hijab. How is this seen as modest? :confused: I may have my hair, forearms, and calves bare, but I would say that my outfit as a whole is more modest.

 

The same reason Christian teens and 20-somethings sometimes attend church functions dressed in form-fitting clothing or too short shorts/skirts. They think it looks cool and want to fit in, or they like to show off their bodies to get some attention.

[Crimson Wife]

The same reason Christian teens and 20-somethings sometimes attend church functions dressed in form-fitting clothing or too short shorts/skirts. They think it looks cool and want to fit in, or they like to show off their bodies to get some attention.

 

I get this- but why still cover the head? Is it a cultural identification thing?

[Hunter's Moon]

I get this- but why still cover the head? Is it a cultural identification thing?

 

I would think so. I had a friend in middle school who was Muslim who dressed the way you described, but as long as she wore the hijab, her parents didn't push the clothing issue.

[Free]

I'm particularly interested, obviously, in responses from Muslims. But if anybody else knows, that's good, too. ;)

 

I was in Best Buy yesterday, and there was a Muslim family there shopping in the same aisle. The women all wore hijab. One of the older men in the family was looking at me in kind of a weird way. Maybe I just looked funny or something, but I started to wonder if maybe he thought I was being immodest because I don't cover my head. I dress pretty conservatively, and yesterday I had on jeans and a sweater, so I doubt it had anything to do with what I was wearing. (Although, it's also quite possible that he was looking at my baby, who was in a sling, or my zipper was down, or something else.)

 

So it got me wondering if, in general, Muslims who cover (or, if male, who come from backgrounds/cultures where the women cover) think that non-Muslim women who don't are being immodest. I know there have been a number of threads here which seem to indicate that a lot of Christians who practice a certain style of "modest" dress believe that women who dress differently are being immodest/inappropriate. Is a head covering, for Muslims, primarily a matter of modesty or one of devotion, or both, or something else? Are non-Muslims who don't cover their heads seen as immodest or inappropriate? Do Muslim men feel like they are being assaulted by floozies if they go out and most women have their hair showing, as I've heard some Christian men describe it (well, not exactly like that, but that seems to be the point)?

 

I hope that doesn't sound facetious, because while I'm being a bit silly, it is a genuine question. I live in an area with a large Muslim population and I have a lot of Muslims students, and it never really occurred to me before that I might somehow be offending them because I don't cover my head (not that I'd start doing it, any more than I'd start wearing long dresses everyday so as not to offend somebody who thinks women shouldn't wear pants). So I'm curious about whether that is something that Muslims feel, or whether it just doesn't bother them if non-Muslims dress differently.

 

I come from India and here the Muslims cover while non-Muslims don't (though most Indians do dress modestly). It is the norm and Muslim men would not consider this as offensive or immodest.

 

Possibly this person is a tourist or has only recently moved to the US and therefore finds everything strange - including women wearing jeans? In India for example, staring at something you find strange is common and people often don't realize they are being rude.

[seraphina]

I have several friends who are muslim, we live in an area with a decent sized muslim population. My understand was that wearing a hijab is a personal choice, a personal marker of their individual faith. I dress pretty modestly, I am mormon so no tank tops or short shorts for me but I know I try not to judge what others wear. I remember though being a teen and pushing the limit of what was acceptable and I think that is why you will see teens wearing tight clothing, although they are always covered and I see no problem with tight clothes that cover.

 

I have a friend who moved to Jordan nine years ago, she chose to start wearing a hijab even though it wasn't required because she wanted to fit in, she feels much more comfortable.

 

Anyhow I guess I don't even look twice when I see a women in a hijab just because it's part of my daily life.

[Little Nyssa]

Well, I have had a post deleted. That is the first time that has happened. I cbjected to something in one of the PPs, but I would like to say that I did not and would not post anything offensive to persons of any religion who cover or do not cover. I think this is an interesting topic & I'm glad to see the responses especially from the Muslim ladies.

Sincerely, Little Nyssa

[mommaduck]

Well, I have had a post deleted. That is the first time that has happened. I cbjected to something in one of the PPs, but I would like to say that I did not and would not post anything offensive to persons of any religion who cover or do not cover. I think this is an interesting topic & I'm glad to see the responses especially from the Muslim ladies.

Sincerely, Little Nyssa

If you were responding in anyway to a controversial post that was being deleted, that could be why yours was deleted...simply to end that whole rabbit trail.

[Amirah]

just wanted to comment here. I live in Canada and I wear the niqab (face covering) and a black abaya( long flowing dress type thing)I wear it by my personal choice. I don't really care what ppl wear that are non Muslims nor would I look at them bad. the only way it really bothers me is if they are half naked(I don't go to the beach) and I have my 2yr old with me. I don't really want him seeing someone with their breasts all out or like recently I took him to a family playground and their were teenagers sunbathing in bikinis on top of the picnic tables right next to the baby swings. As for as other Muslims i don't associate with Muslims that don't wear hijab. I believe Allah asked us to cover and for me if they don't they are disobeying him(not debating) and i don't want to be around them. whatever their reasoning is between them and God but that's how I feel.Let me also say though there are women who cover who I wouldn't associate with either because of other things.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Amirah
misspelling

[unsinkable]

just wanted to comment here. I live in Canada and I wear the niqab (face covering) and a black abaya( long flowing dress type thing)I wear it by my personal choice. I don't really care what ppl wear that are non Muslims nor would I look at them bad. the only way it really bothers me is if they are half naked(I don't go to the beach) and I have my 2yr old with me. I don't really want him seeing someone with their breasts all out or like recently I took him to a family playground and their were teenagers sunbathing in bikinis on top of the picnic tables right next to the baby swings. As for as other Muslims i don't associate with Muslims that don't wear hijab. I believe Allah asked us to cover and for me if they don't they are disobeying him(not debating) and i don't want to be around them. whatever their reasoning is between them and God but that's how I feel.Let me also say though there are women who cover who I wouldn't associate with either because of other things.

 

I find your response fascinating.

Edited September 19, 2011 by unsinkable

[seraphina]

just wanted to comment here. I live in Canada and I wear the niqab (face covering) and a black abaya( long flowing dress type thing)I wear it by my personal choice. I don't really care what ppl wear that are non Muslims nor would I look at them bad. the only way it really bothers me is if they are half naked(I don't go to the beach) and I have my 2yr old with me. I don't really want him seeing someone with their breasts all out or like recently I took him to a family playground and their were teenagers sunbathing in bikinis on top of the picnic tables right next to the baby swings. As for as other Muslims i don't associate with Muslims that don't wear hijab. I believe Allah asked us to cover and for me if they don't they are disobeying him(not debating) and i don't want to be around them. whatever their reasoning is between them and God but that's how I feel.Let me also say though there are women who cover who I wouldn't associate with either because of other things.

 

Thanks for sharing. I appreciate your insight.

[unsinkable]

There is no one single answer to this question, since it obviously depends on the individual Muslim you're talking to. But I think it's important to point out that several imams have said that women who don't wear hijabs (regardless of religion) are inviting men to rape them, and this is exactly what is happening in Australia, France and northern Europe.

 

Imam says women are "uncovered meat" inviting rape

 

Denmark Mufti says women who do not wear headscarves are "asking for rape"

 

 

"It is not as wrong to rape a Swedish girl as it is to rape an Arab girl," says a Muslim in Sweden

 

Many European women in towns with large Muslim immigrant populations wear headscarves to try to avoid being sexually assaulted. Not every Muslim believes this, obviously, but there are quite a few Muslims in the world who believe women who do not wear scarves are immodest and therefore "asking for it." I won't even go into traditional Muslim law that requires a raped woman to produce four witnesses or else be found punishable for having premarital sex/commuting adultery in countries like Pakistan.

 

These articles are chilling. I didn't watch the video.

 

Perhaps you can put a warning on the Swedish article that there is a graphic picture of a woman whose face is covered in blood.

[stripe]

I won't even go into traditional Muslim law that requires a raped woman to produce four witnesses or else be found punishable for having premarital sex/commuting adultery in countries like Pakistan.

 

This is not Islamic law. At all. The law actually is designed to protect women from being accused of adultery by making it mandatory that four people witness the actual penetration, making it therefore almost impossible to ever successfully prosecute a woman for adultery. All else is corruption. There are tons of idiots and people with weird tribal practices that are completely unislamic (raping women when their brothers misbehave) that are particularly rampant in Pakistani and Afghanistani tribal areas. Under most schools of thought, an unmarried woman's pregnancy cannot be used as proof of adultery because no one saw anything happen. The laws are designed to deal with public indecency (obviously the case if four people see a sex act in detail) rather than personal behavior, for which the person is responsible to God.

 

There have been plenty of idiotic comments made around the world about women and rape, including Toronto police officer Sanguinetti's comment that "women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimised."

 

I think you'd find most Muslims have as diverse of opinions as any other group. Since non-Muslims are not expected to follow Islam, I don't know why anyone would waste their time tsk-tsking people for doing whatever, but I've read multiple threads on this board where Christian men and ladies did not approve of tight or revealing clothes. Some people find it distasteful, others don't care. Some guys are perverts, others are not. Some people just walk around with a scowl on their face and hate everyone, in an equal opportunity fashion.

 

In my experience, most families have women who dress and act in a range of manners. This includes Muslims. Most Muslim families that I have seen, in a variety of ethnic groups, do not dress uniformly. Sometimes elderly mothers do no cover their hair, while their daughters do. Sometimes the mothers do and daughters do not. Sometimes sisters do not match. Sometimes some cover their face while others do not. There's a lot of variation.

 

Don't take it personally. That's my advice to the OP. There's no reason for you to change your style of dress because of a stranger's wacky behavior.

Edited September 19, 2011 by stripe

[Roadrunner]

Cultural practices can be scary. I come from a Christian country where in the mountains women used to get stoned for adultery not that long ago (early 19th century) and somehow those horrible cultural practices were justified by Old Testament. Mountains also had very strong "blood feuds" where family members kept killing each other, yet called themselves Christian. It's mind boggling when I read some of the history of my own land and it kills me to see it still practices in some parts of the world.

I know nothing about Islamic law, but I once witnessed an interesting discussion. The guy who majored in Islamic studies kept arguing that Islamic law can't be applied until you have a "perfect" society, meaning if you can't punish people for stealing when they are hungry, etc. My ignorance prevented me from participating in the discussions, but it sparks my interest in learning a bit more.

[butterflymommy]

There is a whole range of thought, from "don't care" to "it justifies rape because she's asking for it by not dressing modestly." And this doesn't just apply to religious people-- society has these attitudes as well. Until recently (in the US) it was common to consider a woman's attire during a rape trial!

 

I tend to dress very modestly and my reaction to immodestly dressed women is mixed. I'm usually puzzled over why someone would dress that way, do they enjoy the attention it gets them, do they have other motivations? Maybe just trying to be stylish? I'm always fascinated by the women on "What Not to Wear" who dress very provocatively despite having many reasons not to do so (wrong body type, conservative job, etc.). Often their reason is that they don't want to look "old."

[Rosie_0801]

A question I've had for a long time is why some young Muslim women wear a hijab paired with really form-fitting clothes. I see a fair number of Muslim teenagers and 20somethings who are in skin-tight jeans, long-sleeve tops that hug every curve, and then the hijab. How is this seen as modest? :confused: I may have my hair, forearms, and calves bare, but I would say that my outfit as a whole is more modest.

 

It's pretty common human behavior to follow the letter rather than the spirit of the law, no?

 

Rosie