Norway Terrorist NOT a Christian

[Kathleen in VA]

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/25/understanding-christian-fundamentalist-label-for-norway-terror-suspect/

 

Here is just one quote from the article:

 

"He was a flaky extremist who might as well have claimed to be fighting for the honor of Hogwarts as for the cause of Christ," said Philip Jenkins, a Pennsylvania State University professor who studies global religion and politics, describing the suspected Norway attacker. "He did not represent a religious movement. ... People should not follow that Christian fundamentalist red herring."

[Slartibartfast]

Well...he did claim to be a conservative Christian.

 

Either way, I doubt anyone is blaming Christianity. It seems that "right wing" means something much different than it does here.

 

It is pretty clear he is racist/xenophobic/Neo-Nazi sympathies, none of those things have anything to do with Christianity

[twoforjoy]

The same, I'm sure, could be said of most Islamic extremists who commit acts of terror: they aren't motivated by a deep or thoughtful understanding of Muslim theology and practice, but rather are attracted to Islam because they see it as an outlet for their anti-Western sentiments. They are more anti-West than pro-Islam, just like this man seems to have been more anti-Islam than pro-Christian.

 

If we're going to argue that this man wasn't really a Christian, then I think we have to say that Muslim terrorists aren't really Muslims.

[Slartibartfast]

The same, I'm sure, could be said of most Islamic extremists who commit acts of terror: they aren't motivated by a deep or thoughtful understanding of Muslim theology and practice, but rather are attracted to Islam because they see it as an outlet for their anti-Western sentiments.

 

If we're going to argue that this man wasn't really a Christian, then I think we have to say that Muslim terrorists aren't really Muslims.

 

Great point! I totally agree!

[Kathleen in VA]

The same, I'm sure, could be said of most Islamic extremists who commit acts of terror: they aren't motivated by a deep or thoughtful understanding of Muslim theology and practice, but rather are attracted to Islam because they see it as an outlet for their anti-Western sentiments.

 

If we're going to argue that this man wasn't really a Christian, then I think we have to say that Muslim terrorists aren't really Muslims.

 

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree: Just know that this post is for anyone who hasn't reached either conclusion.

[Mergath]

Regardless of the horrible things this man did, I don't think it's anyone else's place to say whether he is or isn't a Christian. That would be between him and God, correct?

 

I understand the desire to deflect the attention of the media away from conservative Christianity in this case, but once you begin to decide another man's religion for him, where do you draw the line?

[Jean in Newcastle]

Well...he did claim to be a conservative Christian.

 

Either way, I doubt anyone is blaming Christianity. It seems that "right wing" means something much different than it does here.

 

It is pretty clear he is racist/xenophobic/Neo-Nazi sympathies, none of those things have anything to do with Christianity

 

Actually, he claimed to be a Christian and to be a conservative politically. You can't stick the two concepts together and say that he is a conservative Christian because that means something else.

[Teachaheart]

The same, I'm sure, could be said of most Islamic extremists who commit acts of terror: they aren't motivated by a deep or thoughtful understanding of Muslim theology and practice, but rather are attracted to Islam because they see it as an outlet for their anti-Western sentiments. They are more anti-West than pro-Islam, just like this man seems to have been more anti-Islam than pro-Christian.

 

If we're going to argue that this man wasn't really a Christian, then I think we have to say that Muslim terrorists aren't really Muslims.

 

:iagree: I was a teacher in a small international Christian school in Japan when the 9/11 terrorist attacks happened. The attacks happened after I was already in bed for the night. On the morning of September 12th, the father of the one observant Muslim family in our school was waiting for us outside the building. I will never forget the profound sadness in that dear man's eyes when he told us what had happened in our country and pleaded with us to understand that those terrorists were not true Muslims. I don't have a vast understanding of Islam, but I simply cannot believe that a religion whose name is peace would advocate such terror and hatred.

[UmMusa]

The same, I'm sure, could be said of most Islamic extremists who commit acts of terror: they aren't motivated by a deep or thoughtful understanding of Muslim theology and practice, but rather are attracted to Islam because they see it as an outlet for their anti-Western sentiments. They are more anti-West than pro-Islam, just like this man seems to have been more anti-Islam than pro-Christian.

 

If we're going to argue that this man wasn't really a Christian, then I think we have to say that Muslim terrorists aren't really Muslims.

 

:iagree:

[Kathleen in VA]

Regardless of the horrible things this man did, I don't think it's anyone else's place to say whether he is or isn't a Christian. That would be between him and God, correct?

 

I understand the desire to deflect the attention of the media away from conservative Christianity in this case, but once you begin to decide another man's religion for him, where do you draw the line?

 

The Bible says you will know them by their fruits. I most certainly believe you can tell when someone is NOT a Christian. Their actions will not line up with scripture. Yes, there are times when it isn't all that clear. This isn't one of them.

[Mergath]

The Bible says you will know them by their fruits. I most certainly believe you can tell when someone is NOT a Christian. Their actions will not line up with scripture. Yes, there are times when it isn't all that clear. This isn't one of them.

 

Given all the judgement and disagreement I've seen between different denominations here and other places, seems that almost no one is a Christian, if all it takes is for someone to disagree with your actions. Also, I do recall that the bible says something about everyone being a sinner, and all sin being equally bad in God's eyes. I don't recall reading a verse that says if someone does something you don't think is Christian, you get to decide he isn't one anymore.

[Ria]

Given all the judgement and disagreement I've seen between different denominations here and other places, seems that almost no one is a Christian, if all it takes is for someone to disagree with your actions. Also, I do recall that the bible says something about everyone being a sinner, and all sin being equally bad in God's eyes. I don't recall reading a verse that says if someone does something you don't think is Christian, you get to decide he isn't one anymore.

 

True....and there's no verse that says someone with mental illness can't be a Christian, either. The guy claims to be a Christian. I'm not going to judge his faith; not my place. His actions were deplorable. I think that's enough....no need to delve deeper.

 

Ria

[Mergath]

:iagree:

 

On a somewhat related note....I don't know why, but this thread kinda rubs me the wrong way. I'm deciding not to read too deeply into it.

 

It is kind of going in a strange direction.

[unsinkable]

Given all the judgement and disagreement I've seen between different denominations here and other places, seems that almost no one is a Christian, if all it takes is for someone to disagree with your actions. Also, I do recall that the bible says something about everyone being a sinner, and all sin being equally bad in God's eyes. I don't recall reading a verse that says if someone does something you don't think is Christian, you get to decide he isn't one anymore.

 

were you here for that thread? yikes. that was intense!

[Kathleen in VA]

Given all the judgement and disagreement I've seen between different denominations here and other places, seems that almost no one is a Christian, if all it takes is for someone to disagree with your actions. Also, I do recall that the bible says something about everyone being a sinner, and all sin being equally bad in God's eyes. I don't recall reading a verse that says if someone does something you don't think is Christian, you get to decide he isn't one anymore.

 

I don't get to decide in the end - God will judge him - glad I don't have to. But it is important to me that those on this board who believe he is a Christian just because he says he is (and, btw, he doesn't actually come right out and say that - did you read the article I linked???)

 

There's nothing wrong with being discerning and making a judgement based on another's actions. If it doesn't look like a Christian, act like a Christian, etc. it isn't a Christian. The Bible teaches believers to be aware of ungodly men who will come in like wolves in sheep's clothing. The New Testament is filled with instructions on how to deal with folks who say they are believers but are betrayed by their actions. It IS possible to determine if someone is a Christian by comparing their actions to scripture.

 

Yes, we're all sinners, but only those who have placed their faith in Christ's payment for those sins are saved. If you truly believe your sins have been forgiven your life will be characterized by gratefulness toward God and love to your neighbor. Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." The second commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself and he told the story of The Good Samaritan to illustrate who your neighbor is (anyone at all). If someone says they are a Christian but they do not love Christ (as evidenced by hating their neighbor in this case) - then they are NOT a Christian. That's not being judgemental or taking God's place in the matter. It's taking scripture at its word.

[DarcyB]

I think it's more a reaction to not equate what he did with any belief system mainline Christianity holds.

 

I can't judge his salvation....that's never my job. But what he DID doesn't hold to the teachings of Christ, and that's what I think people want to make sure everyone understands.

[5kidsforME]

The problem is, is that some people think that just believing there is a God makes them a Christian. You can know the bible inside and out, upside and down but if you don't apply it to your life, it means absolutely nothing other than you can study, memorize and remember a lot.

 

The proof is in the pudding, and like Kathleen in VA said, you will know them by their fruits.

[5kidsforME]

But what he DID doesn't hold to the teachings of Christ, and that's what I think people want to make sure everyone understands.

 

:iagree:

[Mergath]

were you here for that thread? yikes. that was intense!

 

Was it a recent one? I don't remember it, but I can pretty well imagine how it might have went.

[Skadi]

Luke 19:27

[Jesus says:] "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me."

 

Maybe he was following in Jesus' footsteps after all. I'm often confused why so many people ignore statements Jesus made like this.

[Mergath]

I don't get to decide in the end - God will judge him - glad I don't have to. But it is important to me that those on this board who believe he is a Christian just because he says he is (and, btw, he doesn't actually come right out and say that - did you read the article I linked???)

 

There's nothing wrong with being discerning and making a judgement based on another's actions. If it doesn't look like a Christian, act like a Christian, etc. it isn't a Christian. The Bible teaches believers to be aware of ungodly men who will come in like wolves in sheep's clothing. The New Testament is filled with instructions on how to deal with folks who say they are believers but are betrayed by their actions. It IS possible to determine if someone is a Christian by comparing their actions to scripture.

 

Yes, we're all sinners, but only those who have placed their faith in Christ's payment for those sins are saved. If you truly believe your sins have been forgiven your life will be characterized by gratefulness toward God and love to your neighbor. Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." The second commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself and he told the story of The Good Samaritan to illustrate who your neighbor is (anyone at all). If someone says they are a Christian but they do not love Christ (as evidenced by hating their neighbor in this case) - then they are NOT a Christian. That's not being judgemental or taking God's place in the matter. It's taking scripture at its word.

 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I think the idea of judging another person's Christian-ness based on his sins seems to fly in the face of what the bible teaches.

 

Of course, I'm not a Christian, either. *shrug* Just read the book.

[Mergath]

Luke 19:27

[Jesus says:] "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me."

 

Maybe he was following in Jesus' footsteps after all. I'm often confused why so many people ignore statements Jesus made like this.

 

There is an awful lot of killing and violence in the bible that seems to be... overlooked.

[Slartibartfast]

There is an awful lot of killing and violence in the bible that seems to be... overlooked.

 

I am a Christian and I haven't stoned anyone.

 

That doesn't seem like I am following instructions.

 

I guess I did hit my aunt with a rock when I was a little kid. Does that count? I don't think she was actually sinning at the time...

[DarcyB]

But that verse is speaking eschatologically about Christ's return and judgement, not about some modern day Jihaidism.

[Kathleen in VA]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I think the idea of judging another person's Christian-ness based on his sins seems to fly in the face of what the bible teaches.

 

Of course, I'm not a Christian, either. *shrug* Just read the book.

 

Well, try reading it again. Not being snarky - I just think you must've missed some important passages if you truly believe there is nothing in the NT about discerning the genuineness of a confessed believer's confession.

 

Luke 19:27

[Jesus says:] "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me."

 

Maybe he was following in Jesus' footsteps after all. I'm often confused why so many people ignore statements Jesus made like this.

 

I think it is unfair and cowardly for you to pluck a verse completely out of context in order to make a very weak point. That passage is referring to all those who are in rebellion against God at the time of the Great White Throne judgement. It does not give carte blanche to Christ's followers to murder anyone they disagree with. I think you already knew that though.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

It's a double standard. When Muslims point out that they are peace-loving and that terrorists don't speak for them many xians point out some verse about "kill all the infidels". Yet, if someone points out bible verses about violence then xians cry foul and call it "proof-texting", yet it's okay for them to do it to OTHER religions.

 

:glare:

[LG Gone Wild]

There is an awful lot of killing and violence in the bible that seems to be... overlooked.

 

Which reminds of a Lewis Black joke ... He was going on about the Old Testament and the NT. The God in the NT was nice and kind and gentle. The God in the OT was kind of a *&$k. He had to be because of the fools he had to deal with.

[Kathleen in VA]

It's a double standard. When Muslims point out that they are peace-loving and that terrorists don't speak for them many xians point out some verse about "kill all the infidels". Yet, if someone points out bible verses about violence then xians cry foul and call it "proof-texting", yet it's okay for them to do it to OTHER religions.

 

:glare:

 

Well, I never said that so can't speak to that issue. Doesn't make it ok just because someone did do that.

[DarcyB]

It's a double standard. When Muslims point out that they are peace-loving and that terrorists don't speak for them many xians point out some verse about "kill all the infidels". Yet, if someone points out bible verses about violence then xians cry foul and call it "proof-texting", yet it's okay for them to do it to OTHER religions.

 

:glare:

 

If I were to claim that, then yes, it would be a double standard. But I don't. And just because someone does out there, you don't then lump an entire belief system because a few people say it.

 

Yes, people take things out of context and make all sorts of weird proclamations on it. This is the verse many say was 'cause' for the Crusades. They, too, were wrong.

[Mergath]

Well, try reading it again. Not being snarky - I just think you must've missed some important passages if you truly believe there is nothing in the NT about discerning the genuineness of a confessed believer's confession.

 

 

Not necessarily. People read the same verses and come to completely different conclusions all the time. That's why there's more denominations of Christianity in the world than casserole recipes. Because nobody can seem to agree on what the words mean.

[nd293]

The same, I'm sure, could be said of most Islamic extremists who commit acts of terror: they aren't motivated by a deep or thoughtful understanding of Muslim theology and practice, but rather are attracted to Islam because they see it as an outlet for their anti-Western sentiments. They are more anti-West than pro-Islam, just like this man seems to have been more anti-Islam than pro-Christian.

 

If we're going to argue that this man wasn't really a Christian, then I think we have to say that Muslim terrorists aren't really Muslims.

 

Well said! You either accept "self-reporting" of religious status, or you acknowledge that extremist views do not represent the true basis for any religion.

[elizabeth]

Actually Homeland Security and other agencies are far more concerned about right wing political groups than religious affiliation claimed as a motive by some. Like it or not the facts do not lie, the two often go together hand in hand due to the politicization of religious belief by many types of believers. To that end I am saying that both traditionally liberal (liberation theology) and conservatives(reconstructionists like Rushdoony) tend to muddy the waters of religious discourse with the political issue of the day. It annoys me and I would like to see the non profit status of churches abolished completely on all sides. Here is the article

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/07/25/domestic.extremism/index.html?eref=igoogledmn_topstories

For those who are so inclined here is a link to the Southern Poverty Law Center , a resource for learning more about terrorism on our own soil.

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files

[Garga]

Luke 19:27

[Jesus says:] "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me."

 

Maybe he was following in Jesus' footsteps after all. I'm often confused why so many people ignore statements Jesus made like this.

 

That line was part of a story Jesus was telling about a king. That's what the king said, not what Jesus said. It may/may not be a parallel for some upcoming judgement day, but either way, it was just dialogue of a character in a story. Jesus was NOT telling someone to go out and get a bunch of people and kill them in front of him.

 

 

That was just such a weird verse to pull out. Seriously. At least pick something out of the OT if you're going to make a case for a violent God. Don't pick a verse which is a part of a made-up story that Jesus was telling and then say, "Well, Jesus said it!"

Edited July 26, 2011 by Garga

[stripe]

It is very uncomfortable to observe (or hear about) someone's self-identification as something close to your own heart, which that person then uses as motivation for some reprehensible act.

 

The only hope is that through one's discomfort with that juxtaposition, we can become better people ourselves, with greater mental clarity and a stronger devotion to promote peace and justice.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

It is very uncomfortable to observe (or hear about) someone's self-identification as something close to your own heart, which that person then uses as motivation for some reprehensible act.

 

The only hope is that through one's discomfort with that juxtaposition, we can become better people ourselves, with greater mental clarity and a stronger devotion to promote peace and justice.

 

 

How very thoughtful and articulate. Thank you.

[Aelwydd]

Given all the judgement and disagreement I've seen between different denominations here and other places, seems that almost no one is a Christian, if all it takes is for someone to disagree with your actions. Also, I do recall that the bible says something about everyone being a sinner, and all sin being equally bad in God's eyes. I don't recall reading a verse that says if someone does something you don't think is Christian, you get to decide he isn't one anymore.

 

 

:iagree:

 

Also, if you use the "know them by their fruits" justification, consider this: until the massacre, many Christian groups would have identified Breivik as one of the chosen, as a result of his professed beliefs such as:

 

-pro-Israel

-anti-immigration

-anti-Muslim

-anti-Marxism

-nationalistic

 

Those sympathies right there describe probably 70% of the Baptist and fundamentalist Christian churches in my area alone.

 

So, don't tell me that someone who would have been embraced last week by much of conservative Christiandom is suddenly disowned because he actually followed through on what he was taught.

 

If Christ would condemn what Breivik did (and I think he would), then he would also condemn the Christian think tanks that spawned the hatred and violence in the first place.

 

All that's to say, I'll concede that Breivik wasn't a Christian, if others making that argument will concede that groups which teach and believe things similar to him also aren't Christian.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Aelwydd

[redsquirrel]

I think he certainly is a Christian. He identifies as one and says he hopes to inspire a Christian war against Muslims. That is part of why he wanted to be taken alive, so he could be the focus of a trial. He wants to be a martyr just like Timothy McVeigh.

 

He is a Christian of a particular type. He is of the end of the spectrum that indulges in intolerance, fundamentalism, apocalyptic rhetoric and guns. The Bible is a big book. You can find a justification for anything you want in a book that size. Look at all people do and don't do and how they divide themselves over what is said and not said in that book.

 

You can't start claiming or not claiming people based on how they chose to interpret what is in that big book. He is a part of the Christian family. He is not the first nor is he the last to interpret God's words in that way. A little political rhetoric from the same end of the spectrum, also indulging in intolerance, guns and fear of government will help things along.

 

I think rather than taking pains to disclaim such a person, better the effort be spend to clarify where one stands on such issues and where one's church stands. Make sure if you are at the more peaceful end of the Christianity spectrum that your walk is matching you talk and the talk you listen to matches your desired walk.

[Kathleen in VA]

:iagree:

 

Also, if you use "know them by their fruits" justification: until the massacre, many Christian groups would have identified Breivik as one of the chosen, as a result of his professed beliefs such as:

 

-pro-Israel

-anti-immigration

-anti-Muslim

-anti-Marxism

-nationalistic

 

Those sympathies right there describe probably 70% of the Baptist and fundamentalist Christian churches in my area alone.

 

So, don't tell me that someone who would have been embraced last week by much of conservative Christiandom is suddenly disowned because he actually followed through on what he was taught.

 

If Christ would condemn what Breivik did (and I think he would), then he would also condemn the Christian think tanks that spawned the hatred and violence in the first place.

 

All that's to say, I'll concede that Breivik wasn't a Christian, if others making that argument will concede that groups which teach and believe things similar to him also aren't Christian.

 

Whooooooaaaaahhhh!!!! I'm sorry but where do you get those statistics???

 

The historical Baptist viewpoint (Anabaptist, including Mennonites) is pacifist. Now, I am Baptist and I am not pacifist when it comes to serving one's country. I don't see anything wrong with fighting for one's country but I wouldn't rush to sign up. We are taught at my church to vote our conscience (no one ever mentions a particular candidate's name from the pulpit and you would be hard pressed to find an elder or leader suggesting you vote for or against any one candidate). We are taught to be salt and light in this world within our sphere of influence (job, home, school, etc.) - to be a living "epistle" of the Lord Jesus Christ. We are not dominionist by any stretch - do not believe in trying to set up an earthly "Christian" kingdom here on earth (Jesus specifically stated that his kingdom is not of this world). Politics are just not on our radar, but growing in Christ most definitely is. Just because someone characterizes themself as a conservative Christian (which I do) does not mean they have some sort of politcial agenda. Please stop propogating that lie.

[Guest]

I hope this will help:

 

Matthew 7:21

King James Version (KJV)

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 

 

Matthew 15

 

Defilement Comes from Within

1 Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, 2 “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.â€

3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’;[a] and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to Godâ€â€” 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’[c] Thus you have made the commandment[d] of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘ These people draw near to Me with their mouth,

And[e]honor Me with their lips,

But their heart is far from Me.

9 And in vain they worship Me,

Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’â€

 

 

I am not going to judge this man's salvation, but we do know he is living in sin. He can turn from his sins and repent.

[FiveOaksAcademy]

That line was part of a story Jesus was telling about a king. That's what the king said, not what Jesus said. It may/may not be a parallel for some upcoming judgement day, but either way, it was just dialogue of a character in a story. Jesus was NOT telling someone to go out and get a bunch of people and kill them in front of him.

 

 

That was just such a weird verse to pull out. Seriously. At least pick something out of the OT if you're going to make a case for a violent God. Don't pick a verse which is a part of a made-up story that Jesus was telling and then say, "Well, Jesus said it!"

 

 

It was a weird verse to choose...unless your goal is to slam Christians and take Jesus out of context. Sometimes this stuff gets so predictable. I could write a script for it!!!

[Kathleen in VA]

I think he certainly is a Christian. He identifies as one and says he hopes to inspire a Christian war against Muslims. That is part of why he wanted to be taken alive, so he could be the focus of a trial. He wants to be a martyr just like Timothy McVeigh.

 

He is a Christian of a particular type. He is of the end of the spectrum that indulges in intolerance, fundamentalism, apocalyptic rhetoric and guns. The Bible is a big book. You can find a justification for anything you want in a book that size. Look at all people do and don't do and how they divide themselves over what is said and not said in that book.

 

You can't start claiming or not claiming people based on how they chose to interpret what is in that big book. He is a part of the Christian family. He is not the first nor is he the last to interpret God's words in that way. A little political rhetoric from the same end of the spectrum, also indulging in intolerance, guns and fear of government will help things along.

 

I think rather than taking pains to disclaim such a person, better the effort be spend to clarify where one stands on such issues and where one's church stands. Make sure if you are at the more peaceful end of the Christianity spectrum that your walk is matching you talk and the talk you listen to matches your desired walk.

 

Just because the Bible is a "big book" doesn't mean it cannot be clearly understood. Those who use it to further their own personal or political agenda (now and throughout history - and there have been quite a number of them) are just hiding behind the cloak of something they perceive as respectable and thereby hope to garner support. It's not terribly difficult to learn from the Bible that true Christ followers are peacemakers not murderers.

[mo2]

I'm confused as to why there is a need to make sure everyone knows he isn't a Christian. Are Christians not capable of commiting such heinous crimes? Who is? Only atheists? Only Muslims? Obviously the man is mentally ill. Can't that happen to Chrsitians?

 

Really, I don't see why it matters WHAT religion he claims. He has a screw loose.

[Kathleen in VA]

I'm confused as to why there is a need to make sure everyone knows he isn't a Christian. Are Christians not capable of commiting such heinous crimes? Who is? Only atheists? Only Muslims? Obviously the man is mentally ill. Can't that happen to Chrsitians?

 

Really, I don't see why it matters WHAT religion he claims. He has a screw loose.

 

Did you read the website I linked?

 

Anyway, the reason I posted this is because on another thread about this same person it was stated that he was a Christian. The fact is, he himself does not claim to be religious - he is speaking of a cultural type of Christianity - not a personal relationship with Christ. It's in the article I linked. I was just trying to set the record straight concerning the previous thread.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Just because someone characterizes themself as a conservative Christian (which I do) does not mean they have some sort of politcial agenda. Please stop propogating that lie.

 

 

Not the PP you quoted, but many, MANY fundie radio hosts are making big money off of their very narrow viewpoint of "who is a xian" and calling the battlecry for other fundies.

 

 

I BELIEVE that YOUR brand of religion is likely VERY different from the man in question, that you speak of a feeling of having a "personal relationship" with a deity while he was probably talking about a cultural understanding of the religion, but if we say about every.single.person who mentions your religion, "we shall know them by their fruits'' then not many people would end up being counted as members.

 

I've been told by many who know me IRL that I am "more xian than most xians they know". :001_huh: I express appreciation, but, really, it's NOT a compliment.

[mo2]

Did you read the website I linked?

 

Anyway, the reason I posted this is because on another thread about this same person it was stated that he was a Christian. The fact is, he himself does not claim to be religious - he is speaking of a cultural type of Christianity - not a personal relationship with Christ. It's in the article I linked. I was just trying to set the record straight concerning the previous thread.

 

 

Actuially, I couldn't open it. I'm just commenting in general response to all the posts, not specifically your OP.

[jewellsmommy]

:iagree:

 

Also, if you use the "know them by their fruits" justification, consider this: until the massacre, many Christian groups would have identified Breivik as one of the chosen, as a result of his professed beliefs such as:

 

-pro-Israel

-anti-immigration

-anti-Muslim

-anti-Marxism

-nationalistic

 

Those sympathies right there describe probably 70% of the Baptist and fundamentalist Christian churches in my area alone.

 

So, don't tell me that someone who would have been embraced last week by much of conservative Christiandom is suddenly disowned because he actually followed through on what he was taught.

 

If Christ would condemn what Breivik did (and I think he would), then he would also condemn the Christian think tanks that spawned the hatred and violence in the first place.

 

All that's to say, I'll concede that Breivik wasn't a Christian, if others making that argument will concede that groups which teach and believe things similar to him also aren't Christian.

 

Well, I am a conservative southern baptist and I would not have "embraced" this guys brand of anything. Your list of pro-this anti-that can hardly sum up someone's whole faith (whatever that faith may have been). Your ..."following through on what he was taught" statement is awfully presumptuous seeing as how you assume to know what he was taught and by whom. If you are suggesting that he was taught hate/murder by his church, then I can only respond by saying that I have been in a great many of churches spanning denominations and have never heard teaching that suggested terrorism. I won't say they don't exist, but let's not throw "much of conservative Christiandom" into that basket.

[katilac]

I did read it. I see other people stating that he is not a Christian, but no evidence that he doesn't consider himself a Christian. In his manifesto, he talks about God and heaven and claims to be a member of the Knights of Templar, which is a Christian organization. I think it's clear that he does self-identify as a Christian, whether or not others consider him so.

[Kate CA]

Luke 19:27

[Jesus says:] "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me."

 

Maybe he was following in Jesus' footsteps after all. I'm often confused why so many people ignore statements Jesus made like this.

 

You might want to read that quote in its context. Jesus was giving the parable of the ten minas. He was not ordering the death of anyone and certainly wasn't advocating killing people.

[Audrey]

:iagree:

 

On a somewhat related note....I don't know why, but this thread kinda rubs me the wrong way. I'm deciding not to read too deeply into it.

 

 

Me, too. I think it is because it reads like that same old chestnut that people love to toss out there. "HE WASN'T REALLY ONE OF US!!!!"

 

As if they have to disclaim him. :001_rolleyes: Yes. The guy is nuts. You have to be nuts to go on a killing spree. But he WAS a Christian because he SAID he was one and apparently believes that he is one.

 

Guess what? He probably doesn't think the vast lot of his decriers are Christians? But, guess what again? No one gets to say someone isn't Christian if they believe in Christ and believe they are a Christian. Whatever ACTS they commit doesn't lessen their affiliation.

 

How many denominations of Christianity are there? 100? 1,000? More? And they each think they are Christians. So who is ANYONE to say they are not?

 

Instead of always saying "he's not one of US, he's not one of US" like a broken record, try taking a look at WHY people get the kind of whackadoodle ideas like this guy did.

[Aelwydd]

Whooooooaaaaahhhh!!!! I'm sorry but where do you get those statistics???

 

The historical Baptist viewpoint (Anabaptist, including Mennonites) is pacifist. Now, I am Baptist and I am not pacifist when it comes to serving one's country.[/Quote]

 

Pacifism is the historical viewpoint for Baptists. Just like it was for the denomination I grew up. But like many American denominations, after WWII, that attitude changed. I grew up in NC (where Baptist churches make up something like 50% of all churches), and I live in TX. I know more Baptists than probably any other kind of Christian. None of them are pacifists, and most of them are pro-gun ownership, and pro-military.

 

I don't see anything wrong with fighting for one's country but I wouldn't rush to sign up. We are taught at my church to vote our conscience (no one ever mentions a particular candidate's name from the pulpit and you would be hard pressed to find an elder or leader suggesting you vote for or against any one candidate). We are taught to be salt and light in this world within our sphere of influence (job, home, school, etc.) - to be a living "epistle" of the Lord Jesus Christ. We are not dominionist by any stretch - do not believe in trying to set up an earthly "Christian" kingdom here on earth (Jesus specifically stated that his kingdom is not of this world). Politics are just not on our radar, but growing in Christ most definitely is. Just because someone characterizes themself as a conservative Christian (which I do) does not mean they have some sort of politcial agenda. Please stop propogating that lie.

 

Shall I start posting links to official conservative/evangelical sites that affirm every one of those beliefs? I'm not a liar, Kathleen, and if you want, I'd be happy to provide that information. Whatever your particular church teaches, I'm concerned with an overall trend, which encapsulates many conservatives from several denominations.

 

Pro-Isreal:

http://www.sbcbaptistpress.org/bpnews.asp?id=13143

http://www.baptistpress.org/bpnews.asp?id=13995

http://www.forward.com/articles/140260/

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/755337/posts

 

Nationalism:

http://www.civilwarbaptists.com/featured/christiannationalism/

http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/5282/53/

http://www.speroforum.com/wiki/default.aspx/SperoWiki/ChristianNationalism.html

How Dominionists Took Over the SBC

 

Anti-immigration, Anti-Muslim

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2006/winter/christian-nativism

http://www.alternet.org/belief/148488/christian_right_insiders_reveal_racism,_virulent_anti-immigrant_attitudes_and_homophobia_in_prominent_religious_group/

 

 

If anyone thinks I'm making this stuff up, I am more than happy to encourage them to research for themselves. What Breivik believed is in line with a surprising number of conservative Christians right here in the good ol' US of A. In fact, the governor of my state, Rick Perry, self-proclaimed Christian, is getting together with a Christian group, AFA, for a prayer meeting, along with other groups. Various members of these groups have sympathized with Breivik, going so far as to state that he was right about the Muslim problem, and he was basically pushed to the brink by all the Islamification going on over there.

 

That's why I think it's a complete cop out for us Christians to pretend that our religion had nothing to do with Breivik's actions. Citing Bible verses isn't enough; much of Christianity is based upon tradition and extra-biblical teachings, and that goes for Protestants as well as Catholics, much as they like to pretend they're completely sola Scriptura.

 

This man, Breivik? Before last week, he could have visited the Baptist church my mom attended around the corner, and would have found many sympathetic ears. He could have attended the Assemblies of God church my sister goes to, and voiced his anti-Islamic views and professed nationalistic fervor, and would have gotten an "Amen." He could have gone to the Presbyterian church I attended in Dallas years ago, and would have found several others who shared the above views. He could have hung with my very conservative Catholic friend and shared his views, and she'd have probably liked him.

 

That's why so many Christians would like to simply disown him and pretend he had nothing in common. Because when we sit down and compare what he believed, to what many of us hold to be emphatic truths, then the only thing that separates him from us is a couple of guns and the willingness to use them.

 

Jesus said that it's not what goes into a person that makes him unclean, but what comes out of him. In the heart of many conservatives lives the same beliefs as what motivated Breivik.

 

If what Breivik did makes him unChristian, then I believe it means the same for those who share his beliefs. Either that, or they are hypocrites.