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NYT: At least 80 are dead in Norway shooting


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Death toll at 87 - 80 from shooting, 7 from bomb attack

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/23/world/europe/23oslo.html

 

I would like to ask for prayers for the families affected by this massacre.

 

Also, I see that the gunman self-identifies as a conservative Christian. As a Christian, I would like to repudiate his actions. There is no way to justify what he did. I can only pray that the scales fall from his eyes, and that he sees that he is not serving the God that he claims to serve.

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Not that I read up about this, but people who open fire are often paranoids. Religion doesn't fix paranoids. They often are especially religious if they hear voices, taking those voices for a deity.

 

How sad, but I am glad there was only one involved. I'd rather a lone nut than a conspiracy. I am amazed he was taken alive.

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Death toll at 87 - 80 from shooting, 7 from bomb attack

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/23/world/europe/23oslo.html

 

I would like to ask for prayers for the families affected by this massacre.

 

Also, I see that the gunman self-identifies as a conservative Christian. As a Christian, I would like to repudiate his actions. There is no way to justify what he did. I can only pray that the scales fall from his eyes, and that he sees that he is not serving the God that he claims to serve.

 

Just a note: According to the link the suspect identified himself as Christian in religion and conservative in politics. That isn't necessarily the same as a "conservative Christian".

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Horrible. According to Danish news, then they have found 91 bodies now and are still searching around the shore. Apparently then he was opposed to the growing diversity and specifically attacked his childhood camp.

 

How horrible for all those families to have lost their loved ones and to have to see him go through a trial.

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I've been checking the news every couple hours and each time the death toll has risen significantly. I first saw a report about the government building being bombed only maybe an hour or two after it happened. Praying for all involved.

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I've been checking the news every couple hours and each time the death toll has risen significantly. I first saw a report about the government building being bombed only maybe an hour or two after it happened. Praying for all involved.

 

Me, too. My condolences to the Norwegian people. This is terrible.

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I'm a bit surprised this has not gotten more discussion here. It's a terrible tragedy; I can't imagine what the youth experienced on that island.

Wasn't he rumored to be a Muslim terrorist at first? I guess that's what happens when you make quick assumptions. I've been listening to NPR, and one Norwegian there said he had long, blonde hair and blue eyes, and was very much against multi culturalism, while being a right wing radical. Not exactly sure what that means from a Norwegian point, but certainly opposite from what was rumored in various places right after it happened. I also heard, according to their laws, he could only get a maximum of 30plus years, because they have not experienced such crimes as this.

 

 

I was trying to figure out how anyone guessed he was Muslim at first too, Dot.

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The previous thread (that I assumed vanished quite quickly), said a jihadist group had claimed responsibility for the attacks. I never saw a report of that anywhere but in that thread. I don't know if that actually happened, or if it was someone's imagination.

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I was trying to figure out how anyone guessed he was Muslim at first too, Dot.

 

It sounds like a couple of terrorist groups claimed they'd done it - trying to get in the news.

 

I heard from my friend who lives in Oslo this morning. Really felt good to hear from her.

 

I'd love to see extremist language toned down. I think we've crossed a line though and we won't. Not looking forward to the next election cycle and really appreciate the boards staying as politics-free as possible. I was grateful I didn't discover these boards until after the past election or I don't think I'd still be here and I get a lot of great ideas here.

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The previous thread (that I assumed vanished quite quickly), said a jihadist group had claimed responsibility for the attacks. I never saw a report of that anywhere but in that thread. I don't know if that actually happened, or if it was someone's imagination.

 

I didn't see the other thread but there were articles yesterday that mentioned many different potential possibilities.

 

This is from the linked NYT article:

 

"American counterterrorism officials cautioned that Norway’s own homegrown extremists, with unknown grievances, could be responsible for the attacks.

 

Initial reports focused on the possibility of Islamic militants, in particular Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami, or Helpers of the Global Jihad, cited by some analysts as claiming responsibility for the attacks. American officials said the group was previously unknown and might not even exist.

 

There was ample reason for concern that terrorists might be responsible. In 2004 and again in 2008, the No. 2 leader of Al Qaeda, Ayman al-Zawahri, who took over after the death of Osama bin Laden, threatened Norway because of its support of the American-led NATO military operation in Afghanistan.

 

Norway has about 550 soldiers and three medevac helicopters in northern Afghanistan, a Norwegian defense official said. The government has indicated that it will continue to support the operations as long as the alliance needs partners on the ground.

 

Terrorism specialists said that even if the authorities ultimately ruled out Islamic terrorism as the cause of Friday’s assaults, other kinds of groups or individuals were mimicking Al Qaeda’s brutality and multiple attacks.

 

“If it does turn out to be someone with more political motivations, it shows these groups are learning from what they see from Al Qaeda,†said Brian Fishman, a counterterrorism researcher at the New America Foundation in Washington. “One lesson I take away from this is that attacks, especially in the West, are going to move to automatic weapons.â€

 

Muslim leaders in Norway swiftly condemned the attacks. “This is our homeland, this is my homeland,†said Mehtab Afsar, secretary general of the Islamic Council of Norway. “I condemn these attacks, and the Islamic Council of Norway condemns these attacks, whoever is behind them.†"

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As a Christian, I condemn his actions. The Lord Jesus Christ taught us to never harm any human being. This man's actions could not be further from Christ's teachings and example. I continue to pray for the survivors and for the families of the victims. Such a sad day for Norway.

Edited by Once Again
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I think there's a subset of folks in our country that actually hoped he'd be a Muslim, just to prove their idiotic beliefs. Seeing that he self identified as a Christian makes it all the more uncomfortable for them, thus the squirming begins.

 

ETA: I just saw a photo of the terrorist on Huffpo; he resembles a rock star with evil, angry eyes.

 

I think i see the locksmith wagon driving down the street.

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I was trying to figure out how anyone guessed he was Muslim at first too, Dot.

 

 

There were immediate reports of a "Arab-looking" person at the Murrah building in OK City. I recall my ex getting angry glares for a couple of days (he was northern Indian, and was sometimes hassled for his skin tone).

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I didn't see the other thread but there were articles yesterday that mentioned many different potential possibilities.

 

 

Everything I read yesterday is similar to what you posted. I saw musings on who or what might have been responsible, but didn't hear of anyone or any group taking responsibility. Maybe that was just a rumor?

 

I think there's a subset of folks in our country that actually hoped he'd be a Muslim, just to prove their idiotic beliefs. Seeing that he self identified as a Christian makes it all the more uncomfortable for them, thus the squirming begins.

 

 

This is sadly true. It must be incredibly difficult to be a Muslim in a non-Muslim country and have people look at you as though you are a terrorist.

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Everything I read yesterday is similar to what you posted. I saw musings on who or what might have been responsible, but didn't hear of anyone or any group taking responsibility. Maybe that was just a rumor?

 

 

A television station in Norway reported that a group claimed responsibility, so did CBS.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20082156-10391695.html

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/jul/22/oslo-explosion-live-coverage#block-24

 

Obviously it turned out to be a false claim, but it was made at one point.

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Also, I see that the gunman self-identifies as a conservative Christian. As a Christian, I would like to repudiate his actions. There is no way to justify what he did. I can only pray that the scales fall from his eyes, and that he sees that he is not serving the God that he claims to serve.

 

Amen. Yes, prayers for all.

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Everything I read yesterday is similar to what you posted. I saw musings on who or what might have been responsible, but didn't hear of anyone or any group taking responsibility. Maybe that was just a rumor?

 

 

 

This is sadly true. It must be incredibly difficult to be a Muslim in a non-Muslim country and have people look at you as though you are a terrorist.

 

What about the reverse of this statement? It must be incredibly difficult to be a citizen of the US knowing that Muslim terrorists are here plotting terror and wondering who they are.

 

New Terror Report Warns of Insider Threat to Utilities

Edited by unsinkable
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What about the reverse of this statement? It must be incredibly difficult to be a citizen of the US knowing that Muslim terrorists are here plotting terror and wondering who they are.

 

Not really. I no more see a terrorist in every Muslim than I see a right wing extremist in every Christian.

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Not really. I no more see a terrorist in every Muslim than I see a right wing extremist in every Christian.

 

Of course, not every Muslim is a terrorist or potential terrorist.

 

But some are and some are here. And when a bomb goes off, it doesn't ask what religion you are. IOW, the innocent American Muslims can be killed by terrorists, too.

Edited by unsinkable
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I think there's a subset of folks in our country that actually hoped he'd be a Muslim, just to prove their idiotic beliefs. Seeing that he self identified as a Christian makes it all the more uncomfortable for them, thus the squirming begins.

 

ETA: I just saw a photo of the terrorist on Huffpo; he resembles a rock star with evil, angry eyes.

 

:iagree:

 

 

Of course, not every Muslim is a terrorist or potential terrorist.

 

But some are and some are here. And when a bomb goes off, it doesn't ask what religion you are. IOW, the innocent American Muslims can be killed by terrorists, too.

 

I don't feel this way about Muslim terrorism. I don't want to start an argument, but I will just say they way I see it, more people have been killed in the name of Christ throughout history (or used as an excuse for fear and control, more like!) than the modern extremest Islamic terrorists have. Neither are good, but there are Christian terrorists, too. It's easy to forget about them, but this is another prime example that being scared of one religion because of extremists is ridiculous.

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:iagree:

 

 

 

 

I don't feel this way about Muslim terrorism. I don't want to start an argument, but I will just say they way I see it, more people have been killed in the name of Christ throughout history (or used as an excuse for fear and control, more like!) than the modern extremest Islamic terrorists have. Neither are good, but there are Christian terrorists, too. It's easy to forget about them, but this is another prime example that being scared of one religion because of extremists is ridiculous.

 

I don't want to start an argument, either. But I live in the US in 2011. There is a threat here now. Debate about the past and which religion is worse, etc isn't going to ease my mind.

 

ETA: I am not scared of one religion. I am scared of people dying because of terrorism.

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Of course, not every Muslim is a terrorist or potential terrorist.

 

But some are and some are here. And when a bomb goes off, it doesn't ask what religion you are. IOW, the innocent American Muslims can be killed by terrorists, too.

 

:iagree:

 

 

 

 

I don't feel this way about Muslim terrorism. I don't want to start an argument, but I will just say they way I see it, more people have been killed in the name of Christ throughout history (or used as an excuse for fear and control, more like!) than the modern extremest Islamic terrorists have. Neither are good, but there are Christian terrorists, too. It's easy to forget about them, but this is another prime example that being scared of one religion because of extremists is ridiculous.

 

Wait a minute: which part of the post I wrote don't you agree with. The part that I wrote that not every Muslim is a terrorist or potential terrorist? Or the part where I wrote there are terrorists here in the US? Or the part that I wrote that when a bomb goes off, innocent Muslims could also be killed?

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Wait a minute: which part of the post I wrote don't you agree with. The part that I wrote that not every Muslim is a terrorist or potential terrorist? Or the part where I wrote there are terrorists here in the US? Or the part that I wrote that when a bomb goes off, innocent Muslims could also be killed?

 

No, sorry. I was holding a sleeping baby. I agreed with you and then below I was responding to something else. My bad! It's hard to type one handed and come out clearly.

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As a liberal Christian, I'll just say that I find both Islamists and right-wing extreme Christians both a threat. I'm not surprised at all that the Oslo bomber/shooter claimed to be a right-wing Christian. The Bible has tons of violent language and imagery in it, just as the Quran does. When you mix that with paranoia and extremist political dogma, bad things happen.

 

It's why I'm concerned with the "sleeper Islamist cells" in this country, and the right-wing militia groups that claim they're just defending God and country. Extremism in any form can be dangerous.

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But...I think this is more of a race issue than a religious issue isn't it?

 

Didn't he say he had issues with the diversity of the camp? I think we should be focusing on the victims and the actual issues rather than arguing about which religious right is more extreme.

 

This article alludes to Neo-Nazis

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But...I think this is more of a race issue than a religious issue isn't it?

 

Didn't he say he had issues with the diversity of the camp? I think we should be focusing on the victims and the actual issues rather than arguing about which religious right is more extreme.

 

This article alludes to Neo-Nazis

 

Respectfully, I did not bring up the issues of religion. I responded to those who did.

 

Threads take all kinds of twists and turns, as I am sure you know.

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But...I think this is more of a race issue than a religious issue isn't it?

 

Didn't he say he had issues with the diversity of the camp? I think we should be focusing on the victims and the actual issues rather than arguing about which religious right is more extreme.

 

This article alludes to Neo-Nazis

 

I expect we won't really know his real motivations for some time. Early media reports aren't the most reliable for information. It's still the very early stages of investigation.

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Self-identifying as a Christian and having a relationship with Christ can be, and often are 2 separate things.

 

It sounds like his attacks were politically motivated. ..

 

I suppose the same could be said of any bombing shooting adherent of any religion that features a deity.

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According to NPR, the camp was organized for youth associated with the Norwegian Labour Youth League. This is a left-leaning (for whatever that's worth because that tends to mean different things in different nations) organization. The shooter appeared to hold beliefs against a multi-cultural Norway and the NLYL is definitely an organization that celebrates diversity.

 

So, obviously the fact gathering has only begun and there isn't alot to know about this guy yet. But, on the surface, this appears to have to do with racism and bias against his version of "what makes a Norwegian a Norwegian".

 

Sigh...so sick, so twisted, so depraved. Additionally, according to NPR Norway is a very low crime country, very benevolent and not beset by such criminal minds as mass murders, serial murders, etc. So, their laws are really mostly only manslaughter laws. He could serve only 21-30 years. I applaud any nation that has dealt with so little depraved, multi-murder violence that they have not had a need for stiffer penalties. I find it incredibly disheartening on top of an already horrific national tragedy, they face the possibility of this guy going free after a paltry sentence in relation to his crime.

 

Faith

Edited by FaithManor
extra word in sentence
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According to NPR, the camp was organized for youth associated with the Norwegian Labour Youth League. This is a left-leaning (for whatever that's worth because that tends to mean different things in different nations) organization. The shooter appeared to hold beliefs against a multi-cultural Norway and the NLYL is definitely an organization that celebrates diversity.

 

So, obviously the fact gathering has only begun and there isn't alot to know about this guy yet. But, on the surface, this appears to have little to do with racism and bias against his version of "what makes a Norwegian a Norwegian".

 

Sigh...so sick, so twisted, so depraved. Additionally, according to NPR Norway is a very low crime country, very benevolent and not beset by such criminal minds as mass murders, serial murders, etc. So, their laws are really mostly only manslaughter laws. He could serve only 21-30 years. I applaud any nation that has dealt with so little depraved, multi-murder violence that they have not had a need for stiffer penalties. I find it incredibly disheartening on top of an already horrific national tragedy, they face the possibility of this guy going free after a paltry sentence in relation to his crime.

 

Faith

 

:iagree: whole-heartedly with the bolded.

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According to NPR, the camp was organized for youth associated with the Norwegian Labour Youth League. This is a left-leaning (for whatever that's worth because that tends to mean different things in different nations) organization. The shooter appeared to hold beliefs against a multi-cultural Norway and the NLYL is definitely an organization that celebrates diversity.

 

So, obviously the fact gathering has only begun and there isn't alot to know about this guy yet. But, on the surface, this appears to have to do with racism and bias against his version of "what makes a Norwegian a Norwegian".

 

Faith

 

It is the youth wing of Arbeiderpartiet (The Norwegian Socialdemocrats), the party that is currently in power in Norway. The current Prime Minister used to attend the camp when he was a youth. The PM was set to speak to the attendees today.

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As a Christian, I condemn his actions. The Lord Jesus Christ taught us to never harm any human being. This man's actions could not be further from Christ's teachings and example. I continue to pray for the survivors and for the families of the victims. Such a sad day for Norway.

 

I agree with you and I have been praying since I heard about the attacks. This is just terrible, why do people do this? Can't they just ake their own lives instead of others as well? It's just not fair to the others that don't deserve this. :grouphug::grouphug:

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I was trying to figure out how anyone guessed he was Muslim at first too, Dot.

 

 

It's become a convenient scapegoat for some to jump upon, I think. :glare:

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It is the youth wing of Arbeiderpartiet (The Norwegian Socialdemocrats), the party that is currently in power in Norway. The current Prime Minister used to attend the camp when he was a youth. The PM was set to speak to the attendees today.

 

 

Thanks for the correction. I was posting based on the article from NPR.

 

If MSN is accurate (who knows), the death toll is now 92. Mind-boggling

 

Faith

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Thanks for the correction. I was posting based on the article from NPR.

 

If MSN is accurate (who knows), the death toll is now 92. Mind-boggling

 

Faith

 

No worries. We've had NRK (Norwegian Public Broadcast) on at work all day. And they have death toll at 92 was well: 85 on Utöya and 7 at the government buildings (or at least they did a couple of hours ago when I watched the coverage last, I needed a break).

 

It all makes me so sad.

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Aha. So, religion did seem to be a factor in his motives. I stand by my earlier post in that I'm not surprised a "conservative Christian" could do this. Christianity has its violent right-wing extremists the way that Islam does, and both are dangerous.

 

He can call himself anything he likes; his actions proclaim loudly that he hasn't got the first notion of what being a Christian is.

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Aha. So, religion did seem to be a factor in his motives. I stand by my earlier post in that I'm not surprised a "conservative Christian" could do this. Christianity has its violent right-wing extremists the way that Islam does, and both are dangerous.

 

 

Murder and the teachings of Christ are incompatible.

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He can call himself anything he likes; his actions proclaim loudly that he hasn't got the first notion of what being a Christian is.

 

Which is what moderate Muslims have tried to claim every time a terrorist attack occurred. That such violence is "un-Islamic."

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Murder and the teachings of Christ are incompatible.

 

"The kingdom of God suffers violence, and the violent take it by force."

 

Now, add that to the history of the Crusaders, and so many centuries of violence.

 

Perhaps Christ's teachings are incompatible with violence, but Christianity has proven itself quite compatible with violence over the course of its history.

 

And I say that as a Christian.

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He can call himself anything he likes; his actions proclaim loudly that he hasn't got the first notion of what being a Christian is.

 

It is funny how this becomes the de facto response when someone does something horrid and uses the name of Christ to justify it. "Oh, he isn't really Christian." That's so convenient, isn't it? You can pretend he isn't a Christian, but he thinks he most certainly is. He was completely convinced and devout, in his opinion.

 

But, this is the same thing that Muslims have been trying to say about terrorists who use the name of Islam to justify their actions.

 

If one must extend grace to the Christian community for the actions of aberrants using the name of Jesus, then grace must also be extended to the Muslim community for the actions of aberrants using the name of Islam.

 

However, I continue to see people assume the worst of intentions of Muslims. There was a nasty post here (rightly deleted) claiming just that in regard to the Norway tragedy.

 

There is a lot of hatred out there posturing as religion. If you do nothing more than dismiss the Norwegian shooter as "not Christian" even though he, himself, clearly and strongly identifies as one, then you are simply playing ostrich. I think that when things like this happen, it should be a wake up call to do some serious examination of how the religion is truly operating and effecting people -- not how it SHOULD be, but how it actually IS right now.

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