If you didn't have the Bible, Torah, Koran or other religious book?

[simka2]

How would you know God exists? This isn't a question of, "do unreached people go to Hell?" I mean, "How do YOU know God is real? That He is there?" Without the answer being, "because the Bible tells me so." (absolutely no snark! totally genuine question :D)

 

Something I have been turning over in my head and was just curious about others thoughts. :001_smile:

[albeto]

How would you know God exists? This isn't a question of, "do unreached people go to Hell?" I mean, "How do YOU know God is real? That He is there?" Without the answer being, "because the Bible tells me so." (absolutely no snark! totally genuine question :D)

 

Something I have been turning over in my head and was just curious about others thoughts. :001_smile:

 

You'd hear the idea from someone. There is nothing to suggest that a person would come to the conclusion of modern day religious theology independently.

[LittleIzumi]

I have had enough spiritual experiences to know that there is someone out there, watching over, and I can't conceive of the physical creation of the earth & life on it without a directive source. However, if I had no scriptures, I would definitely have a lot more questions & would probably have a much more amorphous idea of God, His purposes, the purpose of life, wouldn't have known about Christ's sacrifice for me although I have felt God's pure love deeply (and I would probably have given Him a different name).

[eternalknot]

Oral tradition; same way a lot of information is/was/has been transferred between people and generations :) religious, or otherwise.

[Joanne]

He reached down, touched my mother on the shoulder, and she never had a drink of alcohol again. (There's more to it, but that's the start. ;)

 

She told me that story when I was 8ish. I knew, with every fiber of my being, that there was a God.

 

So much so that I never talked to him from about 15 - 25 because I didn't want to quit drinking and I knew he'd "make me". When I was ready (and, fortunately, I survived and didn't take anyone out in my own disease), I asked God to help. He did and I haven't had a drink since. There's more to that story, too, but that's the gist. ;)

 

PS: My mom has passed, but she's be completely ok with me sharing this story.

[Kate CA]

What would speak to the glory of God if there was no scripture? Well scripture answers even that! He reveals Himself in nature.

 

Psalm 19:1-6

The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.

Day to day pours out speech, and night to night reveals knowledge.

There is no speech, nor are there words, whose voice is not heard.

Their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world.

In them he has set a tent for the sun, which comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber,

and, like a strong man, runs its course with joy.

Its rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them, and there is nothing hidden from its heat.

 

Isaiah 40:12

Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his handand marked off the heavens with a span, enclosed the dust of the earth in a measureand weighed the mountains in scales and the hills in a balance?

 

Romans 1:20

For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.

 

Exodus 15:11

Who is like you, O LORD, among the gods? Who is like you, majestic in holiness,awesome in glorious deeds, doing wonders?

[helena]

Today the girls and I opened up a Bachelor Button (flower) seed pod. What I saw in there... the order and intelligence of the whole set up, that's a pretty good sign to me! It was brilliant! Beautiful! Set my heart at ease. :001_smile:

[Diana B]

What would speak to the glory of God if there was no scripture? Well scripture answers even that! He reveals Himself in nature.

 

Psalm 19:1-6

The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.

Day to day pours out speech, and night to night reveals knowledge.

There is no speech, nor are there words, whose voice is not heard.

Their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world.

In them he has set a tent for the sun, which comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber,

and, like a strong man, runs its course with joy.

Its rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them, and there is nothing hidden from its heat.

 

Isaiah 40:12

Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his handand marked off the heavens with a span, enclosed the dust of the earth in a measureand weighed the mountains in scales and the hills in a balance?

 

Romans 1:20

For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.

 

Exodus 15:11

Who is like you, O LORD, among the gods? Who is like you, majestic in holiness,awesome in glorious deeds, doing wonders?

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

I can't help but know that He exists when I look at creation.

 

And also when my I look into the eyes of my kiddo. God is reflected right back at me. :)

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

There is something called "natural revelation," seeing God in His creation, and there is the belief/verse that says God writes His law in our hearts. A consistent moral code (killing is bad, etc.) through history and civilizations (or at least in most...) is an example of this. There is also the anecdotal point that no one ever discovered a tribe of atheists. At a basic level, before we "intellectualize" it away, I believe people can feel the part of themselves that is missing God. (Atheists, feel free to ignore. It's my own opinion and observation. Everyone I know personally had a bad experience with "religion" before they stopped believing in God.)

[Garga]

Dramatically answered prayer. It would take too long to type here (and my story won't convince anyone anyway), but you asked how *I* would know. And *I* would know because of goose-bump raising, hair-standing-on-end direct answers to direct prayers. It's all very concrete to me. If I'd never had an answer to prayer and never witnessed a miracle, then I'm not sure I would believe. But I've had answers, so I do believe.

 

Of course, your question might be, then, "Well, how did you know to even pray in the first place?" Not sure about that. But when I had serious doubts (serious!) about God's existence and prayed to "Whoever will bother to answer me,": I got an answer.

[staceyobu]

My first answer would be that the heavens declare the glory of God. Look at the stars that are too numerous to count. The mountains, the oceans, the greatness that surrounds us. That desire to experience greatness points to something great.

 

My second answer would be the philosophical questions that we raise. Where did the universe come from? Why do we love? Why do we desire more than this life? I think of the CS Lewis quote: “If I discover within myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another worldâ€.

 

I think people around the world have come to a belief in the spiritual world even in the absence of religious texts. It's easy to conclude that a god exists. Religious texts help define the nature of that God.

[albeto]

I have had enough spiritual experiences to know that there is someone out there, watching over, and I can't conceive of the physical creation of the earth & life on it without a directive source. However, if I had no scriptures, I would definitely have a lot more questions & would probably have a much more amorphous idea of God, His purposes, the purpose of life, wouldn't have known about Christ's sacrifice for me although I have felt God's pure love deeply (and I would probably have given Him a different name).

 

Humans have evolved the natural instinct of creating the idea of causation between two or more events. It's part of humanity's strength, that which enables us to survive from one generation to the next. No doubt without the introduction of the character God/Yahweh/Allah, we'd still form identities of invisible agents that are responsible for events (as polytheism has done for thousands of years) until the systematic and objective study of nature offers reasons for those things that aren't readily discernible.

[Alenee]

The day I was sure, beyond any reasonable doubt, that God existed, was the day I found out I was pregnant with my second dd. It was an answer to a prayer that included, "God, if you're really there, I need your help." Scripture wasn't the deciding factor. In fact, I hadn't read any Scripture in years and at that time, didn't plan to at all. God has revealed Himself in countless ways. A person just has to admit it. ;)

[Koerarmoca]

My first answer would be that the heavens declare the glory of God. Look at the stars that are too numerous to count. The mountains, the oceans, the greatness that surrounds us. That desire to experience greatness points to something great.

 

My second answer would be the philosophical questions that we raise. Where did the universe come from? Why do we love? Why do we desire more than this life? I think of the CS Lewis quote: “If I discover within myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another worldâ€.

 

I think people around the world have come to a belief in the spiritual world even in the absence of religious texts. It's easy to conclude that a god exists. Religious texts help define the nature of that God.

:iagree:

[Crimson Wife]

That famous quote about the chances of a tornado whipping through a junkyard and creating a working 747 being more statistically likely than intelligent life emerging randomly from "the primordial soup".

[Impish]

First Nations ppl didn't have any documents, but prayed to the Great Spirit, had creation stories, etc.

 

It was all verbal.

[Peela]

How would you know God exists? This isn't a question of, "do unreached people go to Hell?" I mean, "How do YOU know God is real? That He is there?" Without the answer being, "because the Bible tells me so." (absolutely no snark! totally genuine question :D)

 

Something I have been turning over in my head and was just curious about others thoughts. :001_smile:

 

I think the sense that there is something far, far greater than myself, something (not necessarily personified as "God") that created all of existence including myself...is natural and intrinsic, and it doesn't take a book to prove it. In fact, it might be more easily and simply acknowledged and accepted without the intermediary of books which are man made interpretations of what we can directly experience if we are simple enough.

[albeto]

That famous quote about the chances of a tornado whipping through a junkyard and creating a working 747 being more statistically likely than intelligent life emerging randomly from "the primordial soup".

 

Not when you understand science. Or evolution. Or statistics.

[Little Nyssa]

1. Beauty of nature

2. Personal sense that the universe doesn't make sense without Him.

[Impish]

I wasn't aware that an understanding of science had anything to do with personal faith. Someone better start kicking scientists out of the club that believe in God. :glare:

[albeto]

I wasn't aware that an understanding of science had anything to do with personal faith. Someone better start kicking scientists out of the club that believe in God. :glare:

 

I think it's a universal understanding that people of faith are involved in various scientific fields. This fact neither negates one's personal faith or the science, but it does reveal a fundamental acceptance of the idea that at some point, the natural world is affected by the supernatural, which does go against scientific discovery.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I wouldn't know. As it is, with many, many books available, I don't believe in the existence of god(s), so I doubt that would change without books. The only way it might be different is if I lived in a time and place where no knowledge of science existed, and I was told by my elders from the beginning of my life that a spirit or god was in control of things that weren't otherwise explained.

[Mama2Many4]

Not when you understand science. Or evolution. Or statistics.

 

Even scientists agree that there was NOTHING before the universe began. Can you make something from nothing?

[ElizabethB]

In Chuck Colson’s book “Being the Body,” he explains how a young Russian girl came to know God through His reflection in great Russian literature:

 

In the writings of Dostoevsky, Pushkin, Turgenev, and Tolstoy she found a reflection of the God whom she knew was kind and all-powerful. The values of good and evil did not change, but seemed to be somehow written on the souls of men and women, regardless of their culture or training.

 

It is an amazing story, worth reading the whole thing, this quote is from page 54. She didn't get a Bible until years later.

[Crimson Wife]

Not when you understand science. Or evolution. Or statistics.

 

Wow, aren't we being rather condescending tonight? :glare: For the record, I *DO* happen to believe in evolution (just not an atheistic "it's all purely random" version).

 

Dr. Owen Gingerich is a professor of Astrophysics at Harvard and wrote an excellent book called God's Universe all about how extremely statistically unlikely it is for it is for the conditions to exist for humans to survive. I forget the precise number, but it was so statistically unlike such as to be virtually impossible.

 

Science can neither prove nor disprove any involvement of a supernatural God. The divine is by definition outside the purview of science. If you're a materialist, then you deny the existence of anything supernatural. But you have to do so by faith (your faith that nothing exists outside of what can be measured scientifically).

[Spy Car]

Even scientists agree that there was NOTHING before the universe began. Can you make something from nothing?

 

Which would beg the question: Where did God(s) come from?

 

Bill

[Mama2Many4]

I would still know that God exists because of the fact that everything can't come about randomly every. single. day.

 

If I hold my hand high above my head and drop a fistful of paperclips to the floor, they will drop and scatter in a bunch of different directions. Each time I drop them they will end up in different spots. How is it that a flower *knows* what it's supposed to do if a creator didn't first give it instructions?

 

The universe was created by something greater than it. The universe is held into being by such precise calculations that any slight deviation would cause it to suck into itself and cease to exist. Someone is keeping it from doing that. I do believe in evolution and things evolving. I don't believe that everything here is an accident.

[Mama2Many4]

Which would beg the question: Where did God(s) come from?

 

Bill

 

He didn't. He's always been there. That's a miracle and mystery that our human measly brains can't wrap itself around. If we're lucky to be by his side one day, we'll know the answer to that question.

[Mama2Many4]

Wow, aren't we being rather condescending tonight? :glare: For the record, I *DO* happen to believe in evolution (just not an atheistic "it's all purely random" version).

 

Dr. Owen Gingerich is a professor of Astrophysics at Harvard and wrote an excellent book called God's Universe all about how extremely statistically unlikely it is for it is for the conditions to exist for humans to survive. I forget the precise number, but it was so statistically unlike such as to be virtually impossible.

 

Science can neither prove nor disprove any involvement of a supernatural God. The divine is by definition outside the purview of science. If you're a materialist, then you deny the existence of anything supernatural. But you have to do so by faith (your faith that nothing exists outside of what can be measured scientifically).

 

If you haven't read this book it is a fascinating read!

 

The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence For Belief

 

It's by Francis S. Collins. The head of the Human Genome Project.

 

I'm going to go check out the book you posted now.

[Crimson Wife]

I think it's a universal understanding that people of faith are involved in various scientific fields. This fact neither negates one's personal faith or the science, but it does reveal a fundamental acceptance of the idea that at some point, the natural world is affected by the supernatural, which does go against scientific discovery.

 

It's a false dichotomy to say that faith goes against science. Science and faith are different realms of knowledge. Science deals with what Aristotle called the "efficient" cause- how does something happen? Faith deals with what Aristotle called the "final" cause- why does something happen?

 

To use an example from Dr. Owen Gingerich's God's Universe, there are two different answer to the question: "why is the water boiling?" The efficient/scientific cause is because it has been heated to 212 degrees Fahrenheit. The final cause is because I want a cup of tea. One is not "true" and the other "false". They are both true, just answering different questions.

[Spy Car]

He didn't. He's always been there. That's a miracle and mystery that our human measly brains can't wrap itself around. If we're lucky to be by his side one day, we'll know the answer to that question.

 

Magic and mystery. Something can't some out of nothing, except when it can.

 

Not exactly logical.

 

Bill

[*Inna*]

He reached down, touched my mother on the shoulder, and she never had a drink of alcohol again. (There's more to it, but that's the start. ;)

 

She told me that story when I was 8ish. I knew, with every fiber of my being, that there was a God.

 

So much so that I never talked to him from about 15 - 25 because I didn't want to quit drinking and I knew he'd "make me". When I was ready (and, fortunately, I survived and didn't take anyone out in my own disease), I asked God to help. He did and I haven't had a drink since. There's more to that story, too, but that's the gist. ;)

 

PS: My mom has passed, but she's be completely ok with me sharing this story.

That was beautiful, Joanne! :001_smile:

[Mama2Many4]

Here's something that *I* can't wrap MY head around.

 

Imagine that you had so much love inside of you that you wanted to share it. So you created beings that could coexist with you in paradise forever. So you make them a fabulous place to live, a paradise on earth. Someplace to enjoy for years to come. But at one point they turn on you. They want to be LIKE you, and so they sin. Now for years the world you created is filled with evil, hate, disrespect and loathing towards you. But there are still those that love you, worship you and long to be with you.

 

So, you promise to send a savior. Your only son, who is born human, performs miracles so that millions may see and believe. He is tortured, crucified and buried.

 

Now after all of this, your creations that you love so much, are having some random discussion for the bazillionth time on whether or not you exist.

 

That would crush me.

 

He's a more merciful God than I would be. What rejection.

[Spy Car]

In Chuck Colson’s book “Being the Body,†he explains how a young Russian girl came to know God through His reflection in great Russian literature:

 

In the writings of Dostoevsky, Pushkin, Turgenev, and Tolstoy she found a reflection of the God whom she knew was kind and all-powerful. The values of good and evil did not change, but seemed to be somehow written on the souls of men and women, regardless of their culture or training.

 

It is an amazing story, worth reading the whole thing, this quote is from page 54. She didn't get a Bible until years later.

 

It is quite odd (to say the least) that a young girl would find God in the writings of Turgenev, given he was an atheist.

 

Charles Colson is a criminal who betrayed our country when he had a position of power and caused he the nation great damage.

 

Bill

[Mama2Many4]

It is quite odd (to say the least) that a young girl would find God in the writings of Turgenev, given he was an atheist.

 

Charles Colson is a criminal who betrayed our country when he had a position of power and caused he the nation great damage.

 

Bill

 

Bill, I thought you were Catholic. You were posting to the Catholic thread.

[Spy Car]

Here's something that *I* can't wrap MY head around.

 

Imagine that you had so much love inside of you that you wanted to share it. So you created beings that could coexist with you in paradise forever. So you make them a fabulous place to live, a paradise on earth. Someplace to enjoy for years to come. But at one point they turn on you. They want to be LIKE you, and so they sin. Now for years the world you created is filled with evil, hate, disrespect and loathing towards you. But there are still those that love you, worship you and long to be with you.

 

So, you promise to send a savior. Your only son, who is born human, performs miracles so that millions may see and believe. He is tortured, crucified and buried.

 

Now after all of this, your creations that you love so much, are having some random discussion for the bazillionth time on whether or not you exist.

 

That would crush me.

 

He's a more merciful God than I would be. What rejection.

 

Here is something I can't wrap my head around. If a God is all-powerful, omnipotent and omnipresent, why would he need to to send his son (or part of himself) to be torture and murdered as a way to bring salvation to mankind?

 

Why not just say: Poof!

 

And what is the logic of having man kill God (which can't really happen if God's are immortal, can it?) and then being rewarded with salvation for being murderers? I can not wrap my head around that.

 

More magic and mystery?

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

Bill, I thought you were Catholic. You were posting to the Catholic thread.

 

I am commonly confused with being Catholic, Jewish and Muslim. What can I say?

 

Bill

[albeto]

Science can neither prove nor disprove any involvement of a supernatural God. The divine is by definition outside the purview of science.

 

Which is why at some intersection, faith departs from science because faith accepts without reason, an idea that is incongruent with known science.

 

If you're a materialist, then you deny the existence of anything supernatural. But you have to do so by faith (your faith that nothing exists outside of what can be measured scientifically).

 

You're correct to say science can't prove or disprove the supernatural, but there seem to be a few things you're misunderstanding here. For one, as soon as science could "prove" something, it would fall within the realm of the natural, and so "supernatural" would by definition have to fall outside. Because faith is belief in the supernatural, any scientific knowledge would not be considered a part of the supernatural.

 

Another thing is that you seem to assume that probability is synonymous with faith. Knowing a mechanical, materialistic explanation for something, we are not likely to invoke a supernatural agent to explain it. We don't assume demons are responsible for known medical ailments, for example, and this same application of reason and logic are used across the scientific spectrum. It's how the scientific method works. Applying that to cosmology, for example, doesn't leave us with faith. It leaves us with knowing what we know, and making probable hypotheses to test we don't.

[albeto]

Here's something that *I* can't wrap MY head around.

 

Imagine that you had so much love inside of you that you wanted to share it. So you created beings that could coexist with you in paradise forever. So you make them a fabulous place to live, a paradise on earth. Someplace to enjoy for years to come. But at one point they turn on you. They want to be LIKE you, and so they sin. Now for years the world you created is filled with evil, hate, disrespect and loathing towards you. But there are still those that love you, worship you and long to be with you.

 

So, you promise to send a savior. Your only son, who is born human, performs miracles so that millions may see and believe. He is tortured, crucified and buried.

 

Now after all of this, your creations that you love so much, are having some random discussion for the bazillionth time on whether or not you exist.

 

That would crush me.

 

He's a more merciful God than I would be. What rejection.

 

Imagine there is no such thing as "sin," but people choose to solve problems with the best skills they know, based on personal experiences and what they've learned and only when another's choices make us uncomfortable does the concept "sin" come into the equation. Imagine this was a likely explanation generations ago when polytheism was a universal concept and the character of evil was eventually understood to be the character of Satan, and the character of good was eventually understood to be the character of El, and eventually Yahweh.

 

This would explain why behaviors that were considered sinful two hundred years ago are acceptable today (like interracial marriages), and behaviors that were acceptable two hundred years ago are considered sinful today (like slavery). Follow the history back four hundred years and "sin" included being Protestant or Catholic. Eight hundred years ago, "sin" included such behaviors as making your neighbor's goat die in childbirth through witchcraft.

[albeto]

Even scientists agree that there was NOTHING before the universe began. Can you make something from nothing?

 

If one can conceive of a living being that has no beginning, why is it inconceivable to imagine a universe or multiple universes with no beginning?

[kalanamak]

We don't assume demons are responsible for known medical ailments, for example,

 

You haven't met my ILs.

[Onceuponatime]

How would you know God exists? This isn't a question of, "do unreached people go to Hell?" I mean, "How do YOU know God is real? That He is there?" Without the answer being, "because the Bible tells me so." (absolutely no snark! totally genuine question :D)

 

Something I have been turning over in my head and was just curious about others thoughts. :001_smile:

 

This is a very timely post! I have been reading Karen Armstrongs books on religion. Have you tried any of them?

 

Anyway, I just finished one called The History of God. After reading the book and this entire thread, I can see some problems right away. We don't all have the same ideas, language, and definitions about God. Some of us (people in general) have basic assumptions that confuse others because they have different assumptions. We talk at cross purposes without understanding each other.

 

There are assumptions that every monotheist's "God" is the same, has the same nature, works in the same way. That is not necessarily so.

 

There are assumptions that logic and rationality are needed to talk about God. That is not necessarily so.

 

There are assumptions that mystery and paradox = untruth, also that the unseen and unmeasurable are unlikely or unreal. That is not necessarily so.

 

I came here today to try to create a poll based on the faces of God in monotheism, based on the book I just read. I'm interested to see the results.

[twoforjoy]

How would you know God exists? This isn't a question of, "do unreached people go to Hell?" I mean, "How do YOU know God is real? That He is there?" Without the answer being, "because the Bible tells me so." (absolutely no snark! totally genuine question :D)

 

Something I have been turning over in my head and was just curious about others thoughts. :001_smile:

 

I'm not sure how having a sacred text changes that, honestly. The Bible or the Koran or the Torah doesn't prove the existence of God, so I'm not sure how those texts would make somebody know that God is real unless they already come to the text with a bunch of presuppositions.

[Imprimis]

I am commonly confused with being Catholic, Jewish and Muslim. What can I say?

 

Bill

 

You're...versatile? :D

[desertmum]

Magic and mystery. Something can't some out of nothing, except when it can.

 

Not exactly logical.

 

Bill

 

:iagree:

[Free]

Here is something I can't wrap my head around. If a God is all-powerful, omnipotent and omnipresent, why would he need to to send his son (or part of himself) to be torture and murdered as a way to bring salvation to mankind?

 

Why not just say: Poof!

 

And what is the logic of having man kill God (which can't really happen if God's are immortal, can it?) and then being rewarded with salvation for being murderers? I can not wrap my head around that.

 

More magic and mystery?

 

Bill

 

:iagree: And I cannot wrap my head around the idea that God would feel crushed by anything that humans do. I do not believe he would have given us questioning minds if he did not want us to question.

[Free]

You'd hear the idea from someone. There is nothing to suggest that a person would come to the conclusion of modern day religious theology independently.

 

Yes, most people do get the idea of God from family or friends and choose to believe in the idea of God. But there are some spiritual traditions where people are encouraged to seek God for themselves, to go beyond blind faith and scriptures and to learn for themselves the real truth. Such seeking would include questioning the very idea of existence of God.

[laundrycrisis]

I am going back to the original question posted. A person can rely on their own personal spiritual experiences and the consciousness they came in with, and work toward developing and expanding their consciousness and awareness. To me, there is no need for a "holy book" to explain things to us. To me, being attached to specific stories or ideas may be a path to understanding, or it may be an obstacle. Each story is a road that can be followed to see where it leads; but I do not believe that any holy book is the single absolute truth. They contain ideas we can examine. They are for our use. A person can choose not to be constrained by any of them. It is also fine, in fact good, to "freestyle". We can walk or sit in nature, sit in silence, or ponder a single idea until it's turned completely inside out and will never be seen the same way again. We can observe our thoughts and emotions arising, evolving, and dissolving. We can read the thoughts and wisdom recorded by those who have practiced before us. We can come into our own knowing. For me, that is something I find for myself. I cannot arrive there by reading a book and believing someone else's story or ideas.

[MelanieM]

I believe that we are all spiritual beings having a physical experience, and that there is a greater part of us that exists than what we are typically conscious of in our daily physical existence. I could call that greater part of us God... we are all God, and God is in everything. We are the creators.

 

My belief doesn't come from any book (though there are certainly many books written with this perspective in mind) but rather from my personal experiences in connecting with the world around me. When I did start finding books and people who spoke my spiritual language I was giddy with excitement over finding that others saw the world in the same way. I find it absolutely fascinating that there are people who came to the same conclusion as me without formal religious teaching, bibles, etc. to instruct us.

[Firefly]

My view is similar to MelanieM's. Also, as a pagan I find spirituality/"the divine" in nature, in the symmetry of the world around me everyday. It makes me certain there is something else out there beyond my understanding. A source. I haven't read anything that compels me to believe it's all random, but beyond that, I don't sweat the details. ;)