Today is 10 years since Andrea Yates drowned her children

[Joanne]

And Rusty is remarried, free, and has a new family.

 

As a (former) homeschooler, a Houstonian Texan, and a mental health professional, that case has always been on my mind. It's come up in a few of my classes.

 

I think her xh is as guilty as she is.

[Aelwydd]

And Rusty is remarried, free, and has a new family.

 

As a (former) homeschooler, a Houstonian Texan, and a mental health professional, that case has always been on my mind. It's come up in a few of my classes.

 

I think her xh is as guilty as she is.

 

 

I completely agree.

[silliness7]

And Rusty is remarried, free, and has a new family.

 

As a (former) homeschooler, a Houstonian Texan, and a mental health professional, that case has always been on my mind. It's come up in a few of my classes.

 

I think her xh is as guilty as she is.

 

Ouch! I think that's kind of harsh. It really is difficult to imagine that someone you love and trust could do something that heinous. Maybe she'd forget to change a diaper or feed them lunch...something he could keep an eye out for when he got home from work. But how do you forsee something of this magnitude. I always felt so sorry for him. But I do not know very many of the details. Was he specifically warned by professionals the danger his kids were in?

[EJCMom]

And Rusty is remarried, free, and has a new family.

 

As a (former) homeschooler, a Houstonian Texan, and a mental health professional, that case has always been on my mind. It's come up in a few of my classes.

 

I think her xh is as guilty as she is.

 

:iagree:

 

I agree completely. From what I remember, didn't the doctors warn them that she shouldn't get pregnant again because of her post partum depression/psychosis issues? It seems like they both ignored the medical advice. I think it is wrong that he's been able to just start over like that.

[astrid]

I'm sure Joanne can provide more details, but it's my understanding that Andrea herself begged him not to leave her alone with the kids, several mental health professionals warned him that his wife's post-partum psychosis was extremely dangerous, and family friends tried many times to point out the looming danger.

 

There were so many warning flags, waving so furiously, that I have always thought it quite unfair that Rusty was portrayed as such a victim.

 

astrid

[Joanne]

Ouch! I think that's kind of harsh. It really is difficult to imagine that someone you love and trust could do something that heinous. Maybe she'd forget to change a diaper or feed them lunch...something he could keep an eye out for when he got home from work. But how do you forsee something of this magnitude. I always felt so sorry for him. But I do not know very many of the details. Was he specifically warned by professionals the danger his kids were in?

 

Did you follow or read abou the case? Rusty was specifically warned, and not only ignored the warnings but made choices that exacerbated her symptoms.

[silliness7]

I'm sure Joanne can provide more details, but it's my understanding that Andrea herself begged him not to leave her alone with the kids, several mental health professionals warned him that his wife's post-partum psychosis was extremely dangerous, and family friends tried many times to point out the looming danger.

 

There were so many warning flags, waving so furiously, that I have always thought it quite unfair that Rusty was portrayed as such a victim.

 

astrid

 

Ahhh...I did not know that.

[silliness7]

Did you follow or read abou the case? Rusty was specifically warned, and not only ignored the warnings but made choices that exacerbated her symptoms.

 

Just what I got in the papers, which wasn't much. It was pre-internet for me. Maybe I should google some old articles. Do you have a good link?

[TracyR]

I agree with you. In the end he got off scott free. I think he should have been made just as liable because he knew she suffered post partum psychosis. It is sad though. She has to live with that for the rest of her life in jail while he walks around with a life.

[Carol in Cal.]

And Rusty is remarried, free, and has a new family.

 

As a (former) homeschooler, a Houstonian Texan, and a mental health professional, that case has always been on my mind. It's come up in a few of my classes.

 

I think her xh is as guilty as she is.

 

I agree. Maybe guiltier.

 

He should never EVER have left her alone, let alone alone and responsible for the children. Never. Who. does. that.??!?

 

(I recently reread the history of this case when a current, well-publicized case reminded me of it. I feel even more strongly about him in retrospect.)

Edited June 21, 2011 by Carol in Cal.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I have mixed feelings about Andrea's guilt. For the act itself, I don't think she is. For *some* of the decisions that led up to that point, I most certainly think she is. I think her husband is guilty to some degree, again, for the decisions that led up to that situation, for not taking her issues seriously enough, etc. I totally understand that he would never guess his wife would do that. I also totally understand that a man needs to take the warnings from professionals seriously.

 

I also think that they should have had better care. I don't care for her psychologist (and haven't since I was 12!). I think she was negligent before and can see how she would have been at that time (and probably still).

[KnitWit]

I had a 1yo at the time and newly pg. I followed that story closely and I agree with you Joanne. I was shocked when details of what the whole stinking EXTENDED family knew came out!

[Aelwydd]

I'm sure Joanne can provide more details, but it's my understanding that Andrea herself begged him not to leave her alone with the kids, several mental health professionals warned him that his wife's post-partum psychosis was extremely dangerous, and family friends tried many times to point out the looming danger.

 

There were so many warning flags, waving so furiously, that I have always thought it quite unfair that Rusty was portrayed as such a victim.

 

astrid

 

This is all true. Not only that, but I remember Rusty saying to reporters that it wasn't Andrea's fault. She was very ill, and he, in his pious religious beliefs, simply piled more kids on her, instead of listening to the physicians. As far as I'm concerned, he is as guilty as she is. Perhaps more, given that his reasoning was presumably unhindered by mental illness.

[wbtx]

My husband and I have always felt her husband was at fault as well- It was well documented that she was mentally unwell, so it seems her husband had an obligation to protect her mental health as well as their children and he just ignored that. He could have saved those children as well as his wife.

[arghmatey]

Agree.

 

I was just in Clear Lake yesterday and thought of her and her children. We lived in the neighborhood across from theirs. So, so sad.

[Pamela H in Texas]

In the end he got off scott free.

 

Ummmm, no. His children are DEAD, buried in the ground, DEAD. That isn't exactly getting off!

 

I wouldn't defend him no matter what; but dead kids is certainly *a* punishment.

[TracieT]

Here's the story: http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/women/andrea_yates/index.html

[kchara]

And Rusty is remarried, free, and has a new family.

 

As a (former) homeschooler, a Houstonian Texan, and a mental health professional, that case has always been on my mind. It's come up in a few of my classes.

 

I think her xh is as guilty as she is.

 

:iagree: I think he should've done time, but, at the same time, how do you prove something like that? To me, he was definitely abusive, to Andrea, for not taking care of her obvious issues, even when he was begged to, and to their children, for leaving them in the care of a mentally ill mother. There was also some serious spiritual abuse going on.

[Jennifer3141]

:iagree: I think he should've done time, but, at the same time, how do you prove something like that? To me, he was definitely abusive, to Andrea, for not taking care of her obvious issues, even when he was begged to, and to their children, for leaving them in the care of a mentally ill mother. There was also some serious spiritual abuse going on.

 

 

I think he should have been castrated. That would have been *justice* to me. It's not like Andrea will ever have children again. He should not have been able to either.

 

And what kind of nut would marry someone like that!?!?!?

[kchara]

I think he should have been castrated. That would have been *justice* to me. It's not like Andrea will ever have children again. He should not have been able to either.

 

And what kind of nut would marry someone like that!?!?!?

 

Oh, yeah, at the very least. I actually think he was more at fault than Andrea. She was really, truly mentally ill.

[katilac]

I'm sure Joanne can provide more details, but it's my understanding that Andrea herself begged him not to leave her alone with the kids, several mental health professionals warned him that his wife's post-partum psychosis was extremely dangerous, and family friends tried many times to point out the looming danger.

 

There were so many warning flags, waving so furiously, that I have always thought it quite unfair that Rusty was portrayed as such a victim.

 

astrid

 

((general response, not just to astrid))

 

Hmm, it's been a while since I've read about it, but I definitely do NOT remember Andrea asking not to be left alone with the kids. The m-i-l was in town helping on a daily basis, and it's understandable, imo, that no one imagined tragic consequences to leaving her alone for the hour after Rusty left for work, and before the m-i-l arrived.

 

Andreas was under medical care when this occurred. Rusty was supportive of this, and, iirc, tried to get the doctor to put her back on the medicine that was most effective in the past. He did not oppose mental health care.

 

I think a big factor in this tragic situation is the tremendous religious guilt many people feel at limiting family size. People are often told that their concerns about physical or mental health, finances, etc, show a lack of faith in God. If you believe that God and God alone "opens and closes the womb," and that God will provide for your needs if you have faith, then you likely believe that God would not let you get pregnant if the result was going to be homicidal psychosis.

 

Do I think it was stupid and irresponsible of them to have another baby? Yes, I do. I also think it's stupid and irresponsible for religious leaders to urge people to ignore their fears and concerns about having more children.

[Joanne]

Hmm, it's been a while since I've read about it, but I definitely do NOT remember Andrea asking not to be left alone with the kids. The m-i-l was in town helping on a daily basis, and it's understandable, imo, that no one imagined tragic consequences to leaving her alone for the hour after Rusty left for work, and before the m-i-l arrived.

 

Andreas was under medical care when this occurred. Rusty was supportive of this, and, iirc, tried to get the doctor to put her back on the medicine that was most effective in the past. He did not oppose mental health care.

 

I think a big factor in this tragic situation is the tremendous religious guilt many people feel at limiting family size. People are often told that their concerns about physical or mental health, finances, etc, show a lack of faith in God. If you believe that God and God alone "opens and closes the womb," and that God will provide for your needs if you have faith, then you likely believe that God would not let you get pregnant if the result was going to be homicidal psychosis.

 

Do I think it was stupid and irresponsible of them to have another baby? Yes, I do. I also think it's stupid and irresponsible for religious leaders to urge people to ignore their fears and concerns about having more children.

 

I agree about the religiosity dynamic.

 

Andrea had shared some of her homocial ideation (they also told him not to have any more biological children). From what I read and remember, Rusty was told do not leave her alone with the kids. He left her alone.

 

Some sources say Rusty left her alone to "get her to be more independent".

[Audrey]

And Rusty is remarried, free, and has a new family.

 

As a (former) homeschooler, a Houstonian Texan, and a mental health professional, that case has always been on my mind. It's come up in a few of my classes.

 

I think her xh is as guilty as she is.

 

:iagree: 100%. He continued to feed her to cult abuse even when repeatedly warned about her fragile mental state.

[Aelwydd]

((general response, not just to astrid))

I think a big factor in this tragic situation is the tremendous religious guilt many people feel at limiting family size. People are often told that their concerns about physical or mental health, finances, etc, show a lack of faith in God. If you believe that God and God alone "opens and closes the womb," and that God will provide for your needs if you have faith, then you likely believe that God would not let you get pregnant if the result was going to be homicidal psychosis.

 

Do I think it was stupid and irresponsible of them to have another baby? Yes, I do. I also think it's stupid and irresponsible for religious leaders to urge people to ignore their fears and concerns about having more children.

 

I agree, but this line of reasoning is often met with scoffing and derisive attacks on those who present this argument. Personally, I think it's not that those who promote "faith-based fertility" don't grasp the risks of mental illness and PPD and psychosis incurred by the stresses of having many young children. Rather, I think that in that movement, there is a decided misogynistic flavor that pushes for more children, regardless of what it costs women. The women are seen as expendable to a degree, necessary casualties in the spiritual (demographic) war to have more children born and raised into their particular mode of faith.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Again, NOT defending Rusty Yates as I *do* have huge issues with various aspects of his involvement.

 

However, on the issue of fears about her hurting the kids. Though she was having post partum psychosis and "homicidal ideation," it still is considered "not likely to happen." The great majority of women who have PPD and PP psychosis will NOT harm their own children or themselves though the thoughts (as well as visions, auditory hallucinations, etc) are suffered.

 

Statistically, it's not going to happen. It almost never does. So why would the professionals (not defending Dr. Starbranch either as I strongly dislike that woman) or husband believe she would be the exception to the rule?

 

I do believe we need to take concerns seriously. And I certainly don't think the problem should be exacerbated! But it is reasonable to me to believe that no one really thought she would do it.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Personally, I think it's not that those who promote "faith-based fertility" don't grasp the risks of mental illness and PPD and psychosis

 

And then there are the religions who teach that mental illness is not real, is sinfulness, is Satan's attack, is weakness, is lack of faith. Sad :(

[Jennifer3141]

I'm sorry but if anyone ever came up to me and told me that someone caring for my children had "homicidal ideation" about MY kids...

 

I don't care how "rare" it is. You don't leave your children with someone like that EVER.

 

Andrea was SICK. Rusty walked out of that house that morning KNOWING that. He's sicker than she is, IMO. And he did get off scott free on it. He couldn't have cared too much about those kids or he would have made their LIVES his priority.

Edited June 21, 2011 by Jennifer3141

[LittleIzumi]

I'm sure Joanne can provide more details, but it's my understanding that Andrea herself begged him not to leave her alone with the kids, several mental health professionals warned him that his wife's post-partum psychosis was extremely dangerous, and family friends tried many times to point out the looming danger.

 

There were so many warning flags, waving so furiously, that I have always thought it quite unfair that Rusty was portrayed as such a victim.

 

astrid

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Aelwydd]

However, on the issue of fears about her hurting the kids. Though she was having post partum psychosis and "homicidal ideation," it still is considered "not likely to happen." The great majority of women who have PPD and PP psychosis will NOT harm their own children or themselves though the thoughts (as well as visions, auditory hallucinations, etc) are suffered.

 

Pamela, psychosis is a different ballgame from PPD. I had PPD, and I had a very tough time taking care of myself and ds, but I managed. My sister, OTOH, had psychosis. Psychosis means the victim cannot differentiate between what is real, and what is not, and is severely debilitated. When my sister had PPD psychosis, our family was warned expressly and in the strongest terms not to ever let her be alone, or alone with her ds. She couldn't shower, or feed herself, and she thought we were all demons, masking as her loved ones.

 

Was she a danger to her ds? Absolutely. Because the nature of psychosis meant she was totally removed from the understanding of cause and effect, what was real and unreal, and what was a threat, and what was safe. Until she recovered from that break down (which required years of one-on-one support from family, and medication) she was a danger to herself and her own son.

 

There is a 5% risk of infanticide associated with PP psychosis. That is not rare at all, but in fact, a very significant risk. The risks of incurring serious injury to a child or to herself are even greater.

 

Andrea Yates suffered from psychosis, and she was exhibiting many of the danger signs for months before she killed her children. Her husband was repeatedly warned by mental health professionals, just like our family was warned. The thing is, he downplayed those warnings, ignored his wife's worsening condition, and left her alone anyway. He bears the responsibility for that, and should.

[Veritaserum]

I agree, but this line of reasoning is often met with scoffing and derisive attacks on those who present this argument. Personally, I think it's not that those who promote "faith-based fertility" don't grasp the risks of mental illness and PPD and psychosis incurred by the stresses of having many young children. Rather, I think that in that movement, there is a decided misogynistic flavor that pushes for more children, regardless of what it costs women. The women are seen as expendable to a degree, necessary casualties in the spiritual (demographic) war to have more children born and raised into their particular mode of faith.

 

I have the same concerns.

 

I got about halfway through the 18 pages of the story linked earlier. What a horrific series of events. I remember being shocked and horrified ten years ago, but I never got these details. The letters from the "minister's" wife to Andrea lead me to place some of the blame on her, too. It's sick.

[Aelwydd]

The letters from the "minister's" wife to Andrea lead me to place some of the blame on her, too. It's sick.

 

It really is. I've wondered what the effect of this may have had on other families in their religious group.

[I.Dup.]

I don't know what to think. What a horrible, tragic situation. :sad:

 

I am not so quick to blame the husband, not at all. She most likely had a factor in WANTING more children, many women in big families (like myself) truly enjoy having many children, it is rarely something the husband "forces" on us, although that is a popular view for some reason. We also know the intimacies and conversations and support we share with our husbands in privacy, I'm sure they had talks where she comforted him and told him she was okay and encouraged him not to worry. We don't know what went on behind closed doors, I wouldn't doubt that there were many hours spent agonizing over her condition, before all of this came about. :( I doubt she was a complete monster all the time. She may have felt guilty with all of those children to have to be "never left alone" so she may have encouraged him that she would be okay for an hour here or there- truly thinking she would be.

 

I have struggled with depression (never psychosis, thank God) and there are times I have felt that I truly could not handle things on my own. But what was my husband going to do- quit his job and let us starve? My mom is too mentally ill to come help and his mom works full time all the way across the country. There's no way either of them could come and help us on a long term basis, they already think we are crazy for having "so many kids" anyway. Truly, what are people to do? I wouldn't doubt there were conversations where she encouraged him he was okay and out of his love and wanting to trust in the good, he believed her. I doubt he ever thought something like this could happen.

 

Truly, what are people to do in these situations? Mental illness does not negate all of the "good" in a relationship- hearing your spouse is mentally ill does not cause you to become a steely cold care provider. I'm sure he still wanted to trust in the good they had shared, the conversations that undoubtedly happened in private, etc, etc.

[amyrjoy]

And then there are the religions who teach that mental illness is not real, is sinfulness, is Satan's attack, is weakness, is lack of faith. Sad :(

 

When I was first diagnosed with PPD someone said I had a demon of depression. That did NOT set well with me, as I am a Christian and did not at all believe that to be the case. It truly upset me. Anyways....

 

It's hard to think about this again. Truly awful.

Edited June 21, 2011 by amyrjoy

[Mosaicmind]

I agree. When I was going through the first parts of being diagnosed and such in 2003 and 2004 I had "parts" of me telling me that my kids would be better off dead or else my family would get them and abuse them like they did me. I believed them. My husband knew this and immediately took steps to get me the help I needed and to keep my kids safe. I am so grateful for that and I don't hold any grudge against him at all. It took almost a year before we worked through things and I was allowed to be with my kids alone. Now, our marriage is stronger, I am healthy and my kids are alive. I don't know that they would be if dh hadn't been so proactive and loved me enough.

 

In my eyes her husband did not love her or his children at all because if he did she would've gotten help and the kids would still be alive.

[KathyBC]

I agree, but this line of reasoning is often met with scoffing and derisive attacks on those who present this argument. Personally, I think it's not that those who promote "faith-based fertility" don't grasp the risks of mental illness and PPD and psychosis incurred by the stresses of having many young children. Rather, I think that in that movement, there is a decided misogynistic flavor that pushes for more children, regardless of what it costs women. The women are seen as expendable to a degree, necessary casualties in the spiritual (demographic) war to have more children born and raised into their particular mode of faith.

 

"Faith-based fertility" doesn't always seem to take into account how much our community/family models have changed over time. All those children in times past were not necessarily cared for by just one woman.

[Aelwydd]

I don't know what to think. What a horrible, tragic situation. :sad:

 

I am not so quick to blame the husband, not at all. She most likely had a factor in WANTING more children, many women in big families (like myself) truly enjoy having many children, it is rarely something the husband "forces" on us, although that is a popular view for some reason. We also know the intimacies and conversations and support we share with our husbands in privacy, I'm sure they had talks where she comforted him and told him she was okay and encouraged him not to worry. We don't know what went on behind closed doors, I wouldn't doubt that there were many hours spent agonizing over her condition, before all of this came about. :( I doubt she was a complete monster all the time. She may have felt guilty with all of those children to have to be "never left alone" so she may have encouraged him that she would be okay for an hour here or there- truly thinking she would be.

 

I have struggled with depression (never psychosis, thank God) and there are times I have felt that I truly could not handle things on my own. But what was my husband going to do- quit his job and let us starve? My mom is too mentally ill to come help and his mom works full time all the way across the country. There's no way either of them could come and help us on a long term basis, they already think we are crazy for having "so many kids" anyway. Truly, what are people to do? I wouldn't doubt there were conversations where she encouraged him he was okay and out of his love and wanting to trust in the good, he believed her. I doubt he ever thought something like this could happen.

 

Truly, what are people to do in these situations? Mental illness does not negate all of the "good" in a relationship- hearing your spouse is mentally ill does not cause you to become a steely cold care provider. I'm sure he still wanted to trust in the good they had shared, the conversations that undoubtedly happened in private, etc, etc.

 

blessedwinter, all due respect, you need to read this story without the lenses of your own, clearly healthy and balanced view of marriage and family life. This case is not about those women who desire large families, and who are emotionally healthy, and therefore able to make such a choice of their volition.

 

If someone were to suggest that my sister, for example, who suffered from PP psychosis, could "pretend" to be healthy enough to want another child, I would...have very strong words to say. There is no "faking" mental stability when you are psychotic.

 

Furthermore, not all women who are in the "quiverfull" movement are there because they actively chose it. Nor, do all women who have large families do so because it was their active choice. There are groups where women are taught from birth that they are inferior to men, and that their greatest accomplishment in life is to bear 10 or 15 children to an overbearing husband who was picked for her, by other religious domineering men in her life.

 

From the article posted earlier in this thread:

 

As Andrea had one child after another, she took on the task of home-schooling them with Christian-only texts and trying to do what the Woroniecki [The Yates' pastor] and his wife, Rachel, told her.

 

"From the letters I have that Rachel Woroniecki wrote to Andrea," says Suzy Spencer on Mugshots, "it was, 'You are evil. You are wicked. You are a daughter of Eve, who is a wicked witch. The window of opportunity for us to minister to you is closing. You have to repent now.'"

 

 

According to a former follower, the religion preached by the Woronieckis involves the idea that women have Eve's witch nature and need to be subservient to men. The preacher judged harshly those mothers who were permissive and who allowed their children to go in the wrong direction. In other words, if the mother was going to Hell for some reason, so would the children.[/Quote]

Does that sound like a loving husband and wife relationship, where Andrea actively chose to have 5 babies in quick succession? Because it sounds to me a whole lot like a sick woman, who was manipulated and shamed into accepting a large family by her pastor, and whose demise was facilitated by her husband's acceptance and active participation.

[Aelwydd]

"Faith-based fertility" doesn't always seem to take into account how much our community/family models have changed over time. All those children in times past were not necessarily cared for by just one woman.

 

I've considered that very same point, many times. Today's is a much more transient society, and having a large group of children without a good support system means that women are under a great deal more pressure. Some handle it with admirable ease. Others are able to compensate with co-op groups and church groups and so forth.

 

It's the ones that have no support that really are pushed to the limit.

[Aelwydd]

I agree. When I was going through the first parts of being diagnosed and such in 2003 and 2004 I had "parts" of me telling me that my kids would be better off dead or else my family would get them and abuse them like they did me. I believed them. My husband knew this and immediately took steps to get me the help I needed and to keep my kids safe. I am so grateful for that and I don't hold any grudge against him at all. It took almost a year before we worked through things and I was allowed to be with my kids alone. Now, our marriage is stronger, I am healthy and my kids are alive. I don't know that they would be if dh hadn't been so proactive and loved me enough.

 

In my eyes her husband did not love her or his children at all because if he did she would've gotten help and the kids would still be alive.

 

Thanks for sharing, mosaic. It was my dh who recognized the symptoms of PPD and made me get help, as well. I resisted at the time, but he insisted with loving support and nonjudgmental understanding. But he was firm, and more, he was right.

 

He loved me and ds too much to ignore something that was harmful to both of us.

[Nestof3]

Joanne, I think of this quite often because I have had a lot of experience with a house church that pressured quiverfull beliefs. I attended a conference in which I was told that we who practiced any form of birth control had the spirit of abortion. You just weren't one of them if you didn't welcome any chance of getting pregnant.

 

We sat through years of listening to people:

 

talking about how they couldn't afford this and that (medical care, transportation, tires, etc)

 

request prayer to get it all done

 

say they were never behind in homeschooling because they were doing God's will (even if their 12 year old couldn't read b/c the mom couldn't find time to do it)

 

insist that any "me" time was selfish and unnecessary

 

We saw college-age children not be able to pursue careers because they were needed in the family business

 

And, while these people have every right to make their own decisions (though I admit I did wonder many times because these women looked totally worn out and frazzled), I have to wonder how much this movement has pressured esp. women to conform to something they cannot measure up to.

 

I remember when I first heard this story, I thought it was the most inconceivable thing ever. I saw women like that as being monsters. But, then I read a blog by a lady who got out of the quiverfull movement, and the light went on.

 

Mental illness or not, quiverfull is not for everyone. I personally could NOT handle that many children. I adore the ones I have, but I know my own limitations. I also know the guilt involved when you don't fit in with the godly standard. I for one am so thankful to be free from that. I refuse to have anyone tell me that he or she knows best how many children I should have.

 

PS -- I am not saying the Yates were quiverfull or had a lot of children. I am just saying that this case makes me think about things I have personally experienced. Though I was never diagnosed with PPD, I have definitely had bouts of depression while raising the boys.

 

Oh, I see she was quiverfull and under bizarre teaching about the place of a woman.

Edited June 21, 2011 by nestof3

[silliness7]

I don't know what to think. What a horrible, tragic situation. :sad:

 

I am not so quick to blame the husband, not at all. She most likely had a factor in WANTING more children, many women in big families (like myself) truly enjoy having many children, it is rarely something the husband "forces" on us, although that is a popular view for some reason. We also know the intimacies and conversations and support we share with our husbands in privacy, I'm sure they had talks where she comforted him and told him she was okay and encouraged him not to worry. We don't know what went on behind closed doors, I wouldn't doubt that there were many hours spent agonizing over her condition, before all of this came about. :( I doubt she was a complete monster all the time. She may have felt guilty with all of those children to have to be "never left alone" so she may have encouraged him that she would be okay for an hour here or there- truly thinking she would be.

 

I have struggled with depression (never psychosis, thank God) and there are times I have felt that I truly could not handle things on my own. But what was my husband going to do- quit his job and let us starve? My mom is too mentally ill to come help and his mom works full time all the way across the country. There's no way either of them could come and help us on a long term basis, they already think we are crazy for having "so many kids" anyway. Truly, what are people to do? I wouldn't doubt there were conversations where she encouraged him he was okay and out of his love and wanting to trust in the good, he believed her. I doubt he ever thought something like this could happen.

 

Truly, what are people to do in these situations? Mental illness does not negate all of the "good" in a relationship- hearing your spouse is mentally ill does not cause you to become a steely cold care provider. I'm sure he still wanted to trust in the good they had shared, the conversations that undoubtedly happened in private, etc, etc.

 

:iagree: This is a beautiful post.

 

I read the 18 page article linked. That man was back and forth and back and forth to the doctor trying to get his wife help. How are people saying he didn't get his wife help. :confused:

The last doctor who was caring for her seemed to be confused as to the exact nature and severity of her mental illness. Hubby asked for him to prescribe a certain medicine that had helped her earlier and doc said NO. If the professional can't call it right...

 

I think the hubby was doing the best he could do. I think he is being overly villified because they were conservative Christians and because he is remarried with children. 2 totally separate issues, one of which disgusts some people and the other disgusts other people. Maybe some people are disgusted by both.

 

What disgusts me were their religious advisors. I'm not going so far as to say they are culpable, not legally. But their false teaching in God's name combined with her postpartum psychosis was a deadly combination. Perhaps she could have survived with just one of these to struggle against but not both.

 

As far as the hubby leaving her home alone, he thought it would be O.K. because his mother would be there within the hour. He just did not realize how fast one could go from eating cereal out of a box catatonically to murdering 5 people. Hindsight is 20/20.

[Mosaicmind]

Thanks for sharing, mosaic. It was my dh who recognized the symptoms of PPD and made me get help, as well. I resisted at the time, but he insisted with loving support and nonjudgmental understanding. But he was firm, and more, he was right.

 

He loved me and ds too much to ignore something that was harmful to both of us.

 

I don't have PPD, I have dissociative identity disorder. Unfortunately, there are other women with other mental illnesses that have done this same thing. Didn't Andrea say she was hearing voices telling her to do this? Or am I mistaken?

[Aelwydd]

:iagree: This is a beautiful post.

 

I read the 18 page article linked. That man was back and forth and back and forth to the doctor trying to get his wife help. How are people saying he didn't get his wife help. :confused:[/Quote]

 

Because he kept taking his family to attend that horrible church, and had his sick wife sit there and listen to such perfidious teachings.

 

Because he repeatedly impregnated her despite her increasing serious history of depression and mental illness.

 

Because he left her alone (even half an hour is too much time for a psychotic person).

 

If this man really took her illness seriously, would have have done all of the above (habitually)? Also, why would he have permitted the children to be hs'd, when their mother was so seriously ill? That's a tremendous responsibility and undertaking, as any one of us here knows. If he truly wished to help her, why is it that so many of his decisions only added to her burden, and went contrary to what physicians repeatedly warned him about?

 

That is why I'm disgusted with Rusty. Can't speak for why others here are, but the above is my rationale for why he is as responsible for his kids' deaths, as Andrea is.

[Aelwydd]

I don't have PPD, I have dissociative identity disorder. Unfortunately, there are other women with other mental illnesses that have done this same thing. Didn't Andrea say she was hearing voices telling her to do this? Or am I mistaken?

 

She did. That's not uncommon with psychosis.

[sewingmama]

I agree with you. In the end he got off scott free. I think he should have been made just as liable because he knew she suffered post partum psychosis. It is sad though. She has to live with that for the rest of her life in jail while he walks around with a life.

 

 

How do you know this? How do you know he doesn't go around blaming himself everyday for not realising what his wife would do that day?

 

If he is as guilty as she is -then should he be charged? With what?

 

I think it is perfectly fine that he has remarried and had more children. Why shouldn't he. His ex-wife killed all his other children -not him.

 

He may have made a bad decision in mangaing her illness and an equally bad one by going against the doctors advice for more children but people make bad choices everyday. Maybe he thought he had direct revelation from God that he should have more children -maybe he thought to trust God over the doctor. Who knows.

 

I don't think he got off scott free - he has to live with what happened the same way that Andrea does.

 

Would it make everyone feel better to see him single and throwing himself on his kids grave every day in total ruination. That would be another life destroyed and wasted. I hope he learned from his mistakes and is a much more thoughtful and wise husband with his second wife and kids.

[silliness7]

Because he kept taking his family to attend that horrible church, According to the linked article they were not attending a church. They were having church at home because they hadn't found one yet they liked.and had his sick wife sit there and listen to such perfidious teachings. I agree the teachings were perfidious but they were coming in letter form. And there is no evidence that she was reading these against her will or that she disagreed. They were both misled by false teachings. I am very disgusted with their religious friends. Why is it assumed that only she was being led astray? Men can get led astray by false teachers too.

 

Because he repeatedly impregnated her despite her increasing serious history of depression and mental illness. It was my understanding that she didn't get seriously ill until after baby #4. They had 5 children. So he impregnated her (makes her sounds like breeding stock instead of a wife) ONE time after that. Not the best idea, obviously. Also not repeatedly.

 

Because he left her alone (even half an hour is too much time for a psychotic person).

Again, Hindsight is 20/20 And if her psychiatrist didn't realize she was psychotic and telling hubby she's not that bad what's he supposed to think? Momma is coming in an hour. Everything will be O.K. That's what he thinks.

 

If this man really took her illness seriously, would have have done all of the above (habitually)? Also, why would he have permitted the children to be hs'd, when their mother was so seriously ill? That's a tremendous responsibility and undertaking, as any one of us here knows. If he truly wished to help her, why is it that so many of his decisions only added to her burden, and went contrary to what physicians repeatedly warned him about? I didn't get that sense from the 18 page article. Maybe there is another one I should read. I do remember that they were living in a bus when she got very ill and it was recommended to him that he buy a house for them. He did.

 

That is why I'm disgusted with Rusty. Can't speak for why others here are, but the above is my rationale for why he is as responsible for his kids' deaths, as Andrea is.

 

I just hate to sit as judge and jury over someone in a situation that I know very little about. These people are suffering in ways...I cannot even comprehend the horror of what they have been through, what he has been through. 5 of his children are dead. I cannot imagine. You don't think this man carries guilt for the decisions that he made? Because he has another wife and another family? Maybe he doesn't. But I certainly wouldn't assume so based on anything that I've read. I would think the man would still need our prayers whenever he comes to mind and Andrea too.

[Nestof3]

I am curious whether he is feeding the same bunch of garbage to his new wife. And, yes, I believe men can be led astray too.

 

How do you know this? How do you know he doesn't go around blaming himself everyday for not realising what his wife would do that day?

 

If he is as guilty as she is -then should he be charged? With what?

 

I think it is perfectly fine that he has remarried and had more children. Why shouldn't he. His ex-wife killed all his other children -not him.

 

He may have made a bad decision in mangaing her illness and an equally bad one by going against the doctors advice for more children but people make bad choices everyday. Maybe he thought he had direct revelation from God that he should have more children -maybe he thought to trust God over the doctor. Who knows.

 

I don't think he got off scott free - he has to live with what happened the same way that Andrea does.

 

Would it make everyone feel better to see him single and throwing himself on his kids grave every day in total ruination. That would be another life destroyed and wasted. I hope he learned from his mistakes and is a much more thoughtful and wise husband with his second wife and kids.

Edited June 21, 2011 by nestof3

[Elizabeth in WA]

How do you know this? How do you know he doesn't go around blaming himself everyday for not realising what his wife would do that day?

 

If he is as guilty as she is -then should he be charged? With what?

 

 

Criminal child neglect? Negligent manslaughter? He was warned not to get her pregnant again. He was warned not to leave the children alone with her. Repeatedly. He did it anyway. That's negligent disregard for the children's safety at the least.

[annandatje]

How do you know this? How do you know he doesn't go around blaming himself everyday for not realising what his wife would do that day?

 

If he is as guilty as she is -then should he be charged? With what?

 

I think it is perfectly fine that he has remarried and had more children. Why shouldn't he. His ex-wife killed all his other children -not him.

 

He may have made a bad decision in mangaing her illness and an equally bad one by going against the doctors advice for more children but people make bad choices everyday. Maybe he thought he had direct revelation from God that he should have more children -maybe he thought to trust God over the doctor. Who knows.

 

I don't think he got off scott free - he has to live with what happened the same way that Andrea does.

 

Would it make everyone feel better to see him single and throwing himself on his kids grave every day in total ruination. That would be another life destroyed and wasted. I hope he learned from his mistakes and is a much more thoughtful and wise husband with his second wife and kids.

 

:iagree: However, when posters stated that the husband was just as guilty or more guilty than the homicidal mother, I assumed that they were swept up in emotion and did not literally believe that the husband should have been charged and tried as an accessory to murder.

[silliness7]

Criminal child neglect? Negligent manslaughter? He was warned not to get her pregnant again. He was warned not to leave the children alone with her. Repeatedly. He did it anyway. That's negligent disregard for the children's safety at the least.

 

Why wasn't he charged then?

[Nestof3]

I'm reading the article right now, and it reminds me of some of the people I spoke of. I used to have to hold my breath in the bathroom because it was just so filthy. And the dead flies smeared on the walls, the dresser drawers a empty with all of the clothes lying on the floor. I remember our youngest even saying the rooms smelled horrible and he hated using the bathroom because it was so dirty.