s/o Autism Vaccine Link

[kiana]

I have a Ph.D. in clinical psychology. In my developmental psychopathology course we studied research in which parents of children with and without ADHD were interviewed about possible causes of minor damage to the brain. The parents of kids with ADHD reported significantly more prenatal difficulties, birth complications, medications used at birth, high fevers in infancy, and head trauma (from falls, etc.) than the parents of children without ADHD. But here's the thing: when the researchers went back and compared the actual medical records, they found no differences between the groups at all. It's not that the ADHD group had more problems, it's that they remembered more problems.

 

Human brains are pattern-seekers and meaning-makers. That's what our brains do. It's such a strong tendency that it's well established that we can see patterns and meaning even where it doesn't exist. The parents of the kids with ADHD remembered more problems in pregnancy and infancy because they were trying to make sense out of why their kids were different. It's totally understandable.

 

I'm aware that there are parent accounts of children who were perfectly normal up until they got their MMR, and then suddenly they were autistic. But, as someone else mentioned, retrospective studies of family home videos show that autistic children can be identified long before parents recognize that anything is wrong. (Scroll down here to the section on the timing of development of autism.) Parents' memories are reorganized into a meaningful pattern, because that's what our brains do. With the exception of very rare cases of vaccine-induced encephalitis, there is simply no evidence at all that vaccination can produce a dramatic behavioral change.

 

 

Very nice statement.

 

I'd also add that it's very natural to go back and look for something, anything, that you could have done other than be born with different genes.

[WishboneDawn]

I have a Ph.D. in clinical psychology. In my developmental psychopathology course we studied research in which parents of children with and without ADHD were interviewed about possible causes of minor damage to the brain. The parents of kids with ADHD reported significantly more prenatal difficulties, birth complications, medications used at birth, high fevers in infancy, and head trauma (from falls, etc.) than the parents of children without ADHD. But here's the thing: when the researchers went back and compared the actual medical records, they found no differences between the groups at all. It's not that the ADHD group had more problems, it's that they remembered more problems.

 

Human brains are pattern-seekers and meaning-makers. That's what our brains do. It's such a strong tendency that it's well established that we can see patterns and meaning even where it doesn't exist. The parents of the kids with ADHD remembered more problems in pregnancy and infancy because they were trying to make sense out of why their kids were different. It's totally understandable.

 

I'm aware that there are parent accounts of children who were perfectly normal up until they got their MMR, and then suddenly they were autistic. But, as someone else mentioned, retrospective studies of family home videos show that autistic children can be identified long before parents recognize that anything is wrong. (Scroll down here to the section on the timing of development of autism.) Parents' memories are reorganized into a meaningful pattern, because that's what our brains do. With the exception of very rare cases of vaccine-induced encephalitis, there is simply no evidence at all that vaccination can produce a dramatic behavioral change.

 

Finally, there have been huge well-controlled studies of very large numbers of children, which have not found a link between autism and vaccination at all. There is simply no reason to believe that the jury is still out on this question.

 

For those who have invoked a conspiracy of researchers and vaccine manufacturers, I remind you that Andrew Wakefield had a substantial financial interest in his findings. He was hired to conduct his study by lawyers representing parents who wanted to sue vaccine manufacturers. And he also had a patent on an alternative measles vaccine that he could expect would be used much more frequently if the MMR stopped being used. He had a huge amount to gain from his "findings."

 

GREAT post. Thank you for writing that.

[asta]

Can we pin Rivka's post?

 

PLEASE?

 

 

asta

[nmoira]

Can we pin Rivka's post?

 

PLEASE?

 

 

asta

Pretty please.

[pdalley]

Can we pin Rivka's post?

 

PLEASE?

 

 

asta

 

 

Yes, pretty please with sugar on top. (don't know how to double quote)

[Woodhaven]

I don't know if there is any link or not. But we don't use any vaccines that were made with the cells of human aborted babies. We do have them vaccinated with the others.

[Little Nyssa]

The fetal cell lines should not be used to create vaccines, because it is a moral issue. I can't speak to this research because I have no idea how reputable the scientists and/or journals are.

[DawnM]

:iagree:

 

 

There is NO LINK between autism and vaccines.

 

I can't believe that there are people who still believe this nonsense. It is a "link" that has been throughly disproven. This is really dangerous disinformation.

 

Bill

[TracieT]

I have a Ph.D. in clinical psychology. In my developmental psychopathology course we studied research in which parents of children with and without ADHD were interviewed about possible causes of minor damage to the brain. The parents of kids with ADHD reported significantly more prenatal difficulties, birth complications, medications used at birth, high fevers in infancy, and head trauma (from falls, etc.) than the parents of children without ADHD. But here's the thing: when the researchers went back and compared the actual medical records, they found no differences between the groups at all. It's not that the ADHD group had more problems, it's that they remembered more problems.

 

Human brains are pattern-seekers and meaning-makers. That's what our brains do. It's such a strong tendency that it's well established that we can see patterns and meaning even where it doesn't exist. The parents of the kids with ADHD remembered more problems in pregnancy and infancy because they were trying to make sense out of why their kids were different. It's totally understandable.

 

I'm aware that there are parent accounts of children who were perfectly normal up until they got their MMR, and then suddenly they were autistic. But, as someone else mentioned, retrospective studies of family home videos show that autistic children can be identified long before parents recognize that anything is wrong. (Scroll down here to the section on the timing of development of autism.) Parents' memories are reorganized into a meaningful pattern, because that's what our brains do. With the exception of very rare cases of vaccine-induced encephalitis, there is simply no evidence at all that vaccination can produce a dramatic behavioral change.

 

Finally, there have been huge well-controlled studies of very large numbers of children, which have not found a link between autism and vaccination at all. There is simply no reason to believe that the jury is still out on this question.

 

For those who have invoked a conspiracy of researchers and vaccine manufacturers, I remind you that Andrew Wakefield had a substantial financial interest in his findings. He was hired to conduct his study by lawyers representing parents who wanted to sue vaccine manufacturers. And he also had a patent on an alternative measles vaccine that he could expect would be used much more frequently if the MMR stopped being used. He had a huge amount to gain from his "findings."

 

All the research I did before my first son was born (adopted) said children exposed to drugs and tobacco (which my kids were) have a much higher instance of ADHD. Is that not true?

[Alicia64]

There have been multiple studies show NO LINK between autism and vaccines. The one study in England that did suggest a link turned out to be a fraud.

 

There is NO LINK. None!

 

Bill

 

:iagree:

 

I just want to add: many parents observe the first signs of autism when the children are infants. So. . . how would that make the vaccine the culprit anyway?

 

Alley

[TracieT]

:iagree:

 

I just want to add: many parents observe the first signs of autism when the children are infants. So. . . how would that make the vaccine the culprit anyway?

 

Alley

 

Many isn't all.

[Hannah C.]

I don't put much stock in "vaccines cause autism". I think it is possible vaccines could trigger autism, or make already existing symptoms worse.

 

Mostly, I think vaccinations are the politically correct thing to do. Because of that, they don't often get questioned by the powers that be - and while I don't think vaccines *cause* autism, I know that vaccines *can* cause adverse reactions. I think more research needs to be done about vaccines in general, as it seems that the trend is to put the vaccine out into the wide world first and ask questions later, if ever.

[Rivka]

Very nice statement.

 

I'd also add that it's very natural to go back and look for something, anything, that you could have done other than be born with different genes.

 

Yes. And for people whose kids don't have autism, it's also natural to very much want to believe that you can prevent it from happening. I think that's one of the reasons for the incredible persistence of the "vaccines cause autism" belief. If you believe that, you can "know" that it won't happen to your kid.

 

Can we pin Rivka's post?

 

PLEASE?

 

:blushing: Thanks, everyone!

[actuary]

GREAT post. Thank you for writing that.

 

I agree - it was really interesting to read!:001_smile:

[scrappyhappymama]

There is NO LINK between autism and vaccines.

 

I can't believe that there are people who still believe this nonsense. It is a "link" that has been throughly disproven. This is really dangerous disinformation.

 

Bill

 

I'm really surprised at the lack of logic here. It is very, very difficult to PROVE a negative. What about factors that have not been scientifically tested for yet? What about factors that have not even been discovered yet? Vaccines are made up of many different components. Has each and every component been isolated and studied? Maybe there is a seemingly harmless component that is really the culprit. Maybe it is a particular combination of vaccines, or maybe there is an overload point at which the trigger occurs? We don't even know yet WHAT the cause/trigger/genetic issue is. So how are we to definitively state that a particular cause has been disproven? There are SO many variables. SO much more science to pursue.

 

 

I'll say it again.

 

I believe the thousands of parents who had a normally functioning and developing child, vaccinated them, and the child changed forever.

 

I believe those parents. Nope, I don't believe that the vaccines "corresponded with naturally occuring autistic symtoms". No, I don't believe those parents mis-read their child up until that point.

 

I believe the parents who know vaccines, for their child, caused what we currently call autism.

 

:iagree: So far, there is no proof that there is a causal link and not just a correlation. It may never be proven. But to dismiss these folks valid experiences outright as invalid and unworthy of additional study is insensitive and insulting, in my opinion. The correlation is striking, and compelling and I think it is worthy of further research.

 

My theory is that vaccines do not cause autism, but that in some way they serve as a trigger for children who are already genetically susceptible.

 

There are components in vaccines that are regulated in IV fluids for premature neonates because of their known neurological effects on infants, but which are allowed in much greater amounts in vaccines, with no studies done to prove their safety. And this is just one potential concern and possibility waiting to be further explored.

[nmoira]

 

I'm really surprised at the lack of logic here. It is very, very difficult to PROVE a negative. What about factors that have not been scientifically tested for yet? What about factors that have not even been discovered yet?

But this applies to *everything* in the whole wide world, no?

[Spy Car]

I'm really surprised at the lack of logic here. It is very, very difficult to PROVE a negative. What about factors that have not been scientifically tested for yet? What about factors that have not even been discovered yet? Vaccines are made up of many different components. Has each and every component been isolated and studied? Maybe there is a seemingly harmless component that is really the culprit. Maybe it is a particular combination of vaccines, or maybe there is an overload point at which the trigger occurs? We don't even know yet WHAT the cause/trigger/genetic issue is. So how are we to definitively state that a particular cause has been disproven? There are SO many variables. SO much more science to pursue.

 

 

It is like saying prove the moon isn't made of green cheese.

 

Bill

[WishboneDawn]

I'm really surprised at the lack of logic here. It is very, very difficult to PROVE a negative.

 

You're right of course but despite the fact the no one can prove unicorns don't exist, I'm still not going to believe they do because there is no evidence that they do.

 

When there as some evidence, any data at all, that vaccines cause autism, I'll consider the matter.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

My two were born the way they are. Dd wasn't diagnosed until she was 6, but looking back, it's beyond obvious.

 

My neighbor has a 10yo with asperger's, and he was never vaccinated. Mine are up to date on all vaccines.

[asta]

I'm really surprised at the lack of logic here. It is very, very difficult to PROVE a negative. What about factors that have not been scientifically tested for yet? What about factors that have not even been discovered yet? Vaccines are made up of many different components. Has each and every component been isolated and studied? Maybe there is a seemingly harmless component that is really the culprit. Maybe it is a particular combination of vaccines, or maybe there is an overload point at which the trigger occurs? We don't even know yet WHAT the cause/trigger/genetic issue is. So how are we to definitively state that a particular cause has been disproven? There are SO many variables. SO much more science to pursue.

 

(snark alert)

 

But hasn't anyone been reading this (and the thousand other theads on this same topic) thread? It's VACCINES?

 

God forbid John and Mary have a little baby (and that makes three...) and their GENES be the cause of little Susie's brain being wired differently -- no matter when someone happens to notice it.

 

No one wants to believe that THEY (not the Pharmaceutical Industry, not the Government, not Monsanto, not the Big Corporation in their town...) are responsible for the intermixing of the genetic material that created little Susie just. the. way. she. is.

 

And if little Susie has something buried deep within her genetic code (Hannah Poling, cough, cough) that is thought to be "triggered" by something -- guess what? It's STILL in her genetic code, FIRST.

 

And there is no changing Susie's genetic code. Susie's code was going to do what it was going to do: at birth, at 2, at 6 - whenever. It could have been a strawberry. It could have been a fall. It could have been a medicine. It could have been nothing other than the regular division of cells inherent in growing up.

 

Sometimes life just makes a Susie.

 

And if you're a parent of a Susie, you do the best you can, because it can be very hard. But that doesn't make it the fault of some *one* or of some *thing* anymore than muscular dystrophy or cystic fibrosis is someone's fault. It just IS.

 

And as someone with Asperger's? Let me tell you - sometimes it really sucks @ss. And it doubly sucks @ss when those same damaged genes decide to express themselves later in life in new, exciting ways that are damaging to your health. But they still. just. ARE.

 

Stay on your (general you) anti-vax bandwagon all you want. But here's a "funny" little bit for ya'll: guess what is a HUGE problem for adults on the autism spectrum? Compromised immune systems. Without herd immunity? We're toast.

 

Chew on that one for awhile.

 

 

asta

[YLVD]

I know quite a few children with autism. My best friend has two boys and both are autistic.

 

I remember that something was really different about her first as a baby. It was just..something. She sensed it too, very early. With the second, it was obvious to her, I just didn't spend much time around them.

 

Her second DS is far less severe than her first. Both are doing very well now as older children due to early intervention. Both children were vaccinated but, that just isn't it with them. They were born with this.

[YLVD]

I am not a conspiracy theorist. My kids are vaccinated. I hate extremism on this (and most) topics.

 

But.............

 

Sorry, and with respect, I believe the parents of vaccine-induced changed children. Autism doesn't strike in a 24 hour window.

 

I absolutely agree with this. I don't know what happens to those children, but the trigger theory resonates with me a bit.

[Alicia64]

(snark alert)

 

But hasn't anyone been reading this (and the thousand other theads on this same topic) thread? It's VACCINES?

 

God forbid John and Mary have a little baby (and that makes three...) and their GENES be the cause of little Susie's brain being wired differently -- no matter when someone happens to notice it.

 

No one wants to believe that THEY (not the Pharmaceutical Industry, not the Government, not Monsanto, not the Big Corporation in their town...) are responsible for the intermixing of the genetic material that created little Susie just. the. way. she. is.

 

And if little Susie has something buried deep within her genetic code (Hannah Poling, cough, cough) that is thought to be "triggered" by something -- guess what? It's STILL in her genetic code, FIRST.

 

And there is no changing Susie's genetic code. Susie's code was going to do what it was going to do: at birth, at 2, at 6 - whenever. It could have been a strawberry. It could have been a fall. It could have been a medicine. It could have been nothing other than the regular division of cells inherent in growing up.

 

Sometimes life just makes a Susie.

 

And if you're a parent of a Susie, you do the best you can, because it can be very hard. But that doesn't make it the fault of some *one* or of some *thing* anymore than muscular dystrophy or cystic fibrosis is someone's fault. It just IS.

 

And as someone with Asperger's? Let me tell you - sometimes it really sucks @ss. And it doubly sucks @ss when those same damaged genes decide to express themselves later in life in new, exciting ways that are damaging to your health. But they still. just. ARE.

 

Stay on your (general you) anti-vax bandwagon all you want. But here's a "funny" little bit for ya'll: guess what is a HUGE problem for adults on the autism spectrum? Compromised immune systems. Without herd immunity? We're toast.

 

Chew on that one for awhile.

 

 

asta

 

Asta, being married to an Aspie I know the intelligence level that is often involved. No, I'm not being sarcastic, I'm being serious.

 

I tend to agree with your analysis, but what do you make of the fact that autism rates have shot up in the last few years?

 

Alley

[WishboneDawn]

Asta, being married to an Aspie I know the intelligence level that is often involved. No, I'm not being sarcastic, I'm being serious.

 

I tend to agree with your analysis, but what do you make of the fact that autism rates have shot up in the last few years?

 

Alley

 

Rates have shot up or diagnoses has improved and the view of spectrum disorders has widened?

[Alicia64]

Rates have shot up or diagnoses has improved and the view of spectrum disorders has widened?

 

Well, the "widened" or "better diagnosis" theories don't make sense to me. I realize it's anecdotal, but as a kid I didn't know other children with autisim.

 

Now, I knew two boys in all those years who clearly had ADHD. Even as a kid I knew something was going on.

 

But I have many friends now (we've moved coasts so I've made a new crop of friends) who have kids w/ autism. The numbers seem huge compared to what they used to be.

 

Again, I'm not being argumentative -- just curious. . . and sad for everyone impacted.

 

Alley

[asta]

Asta, being married to an Aspie I know the intelligence level that is often involved. No, I'm not being sarcastic, I'm being serious.

 

I tend to agree with your analysis, but what do you make of the fact that autism rates have shot up in the last few years?

 

Alley

 

Honestly? I don't think they've shot up at all.

 

(this is a general rant, Alley, not directed specifically at you)

 

I think the "me" generation (you can call them the "post-boomers" or whatever) put their kids under a helicopter parent microscope in every area of their lives and things that were chalked up to "quirks" or whatever for the past upteen years became the latest, greatest news story of an epidemic since AIDS hit the scene.

 

Like has always found like. It's not "news" that people in silicon valley married one another and had babies. It's also not "news" that there are a bunch of spectrum people in the computer world. The combination does not equal an "explosion" of autism or an "autism pocket" in silicon valley or NCs research triangle or... wherever. It equals one gene set mixing with another gene set and people LOOKING for it.

 

No one used to look. No one used to give a flying (insert chosen expletive here) about the geeks, smarty pants, weirdos, socially backward kids PERIOD.

 

Stop for a second and think back to your elementary school days. You all had at least one of us in your school: the kid who always seemed to speak at the wrong time (at the wrong volume, but not necessarily the wrong subject, if you really listened). The kid who didn't seem to have grown into their body (PE just didn't work for them). The kid who just. didn't. fit. And you couldn't put your finger on WHY they didn't fit - you just knew that they didn't.

 

I hate to say it guys, but how did you treat them? Be honest.

 

Unless they had profoundly observant parents, the only "intervention" they received in their life was on the playground. And it was usually in the form of beatings. If their DID have incredible parents, they got what was available at the time: speech therapy, extremely basic behavioral therapy (no, it's NOT ok to fly into a rage and attempt too destroy things and people just because you're overwhelmed), special shoes, intellectual games. And they STILL got beat up at school.

 

We talk about our HS kids having the skills to "go out into the world". Well, there is an entire generation of adults out there who learned the skills we are teaching our children, except in a very harsh manner, yet whom are very gentle people. And they are "faking" every last minute of it. PDalley and I have discussed this at length on this board. It IS possible to learn how to operate in a world that you don't understand, that has made clear you are not necessarily wanted because you are not the societal "norm". But it takes a lifetime of practice. Not coddling, practice.

 

But if you are being told, day in and day out, that you just need to "hold on, a cure is coming". That "this next treatment will work". That "you'd be fine if those evil ______ hadn't done this to you". (and no, it doesn't have to be said out loud - the message will come through regardless - any kid going for chelation will know that their parent thinks something awful is wrong with them) -- guess what? That kid will NEVER "go out into the world" successfully. They'll spend their life a victim, not an advocate of their own life.

 

And yes, I am obviously speaking of children who are healthy enough to ever leave home in the first place. As with any other genetic "disorder" (or, who knows, maybe ASD is a next step mutation that hasn't fully matured? No one knows), it resides along a spectrum.

 

So, no. Not a rise. Just more people looking.

 

 

asta

[Wheres Toto]

Rates have shot up or diagnoses has improved and the view of spectrum disorders has widened?

 

:iagree:

My older brother is almost definitely autistic. As a child he was diagnosed with "mild brain damage, unknown cause". He fits the diagnostic criteria for autism to a T. But, 42 years ago there was no such thing. He went to the "remedial" classes through most of school. I spent a lot of time around him and his friends. Probably more than 1/2 of them would be diagnosed autistic or aspergers these days.

 

I think years ago they were the "remedial" students, the "special ed" students or the weird kid. Most schools had a least a few, some schools had a lot. Those of us who were "mainstream" probably spent very little time with the kids who went to the special classes. I only did because my brother was one of them.

 

Wasn't Einstein most likely autistic?

[Alicia64]

Honestly? Like has always found like. It's not "news" that people in silicon valley married one another and had babies. It's also not "news" that there are a bunch of spectrum people in the computer world. The combination does not equal an "explosion" of autism or an "autism pocket" in silicon valley or NCs research triangle or... wherever. It equals one gene set mixing with another gene set and people LOOKING for it.

 

No one used to look. No one used to give a flying (insert chosen expletive here) about the geeks, smarty pants, weirdos, socially backward kids PERIOD.

 

Stop for a second and think back to your elementary school days. You all had at least one of us in your school: the kid who always seemed to speak at the wrong time (at the wrong volume, but not necessarily the wrong subject, if you really listened). The kid who didn't seem to have grown into their body (PE just didn't work for them). The kid who just. didn't. fit. And you couldn't put your finger on WHY they didn't fit - you just knew that they didn't.

 

I hate to say it guys, but how did you treat them? Be honest.

 

Unless they had profoundly observant parents, the only "intervention" they received in their life was on the playground. And it was usually in the form of beatings. If their DID have incredible parents, they got what was available at the time: speech therapy, extremely basic behavioral therapy (no, it's NOT ok to fly into a rage and attempt too destroy things and people just because you're overwhelmed), special shoes, intellectual games. And they STILL got beat up at school.

 

We talk about our HS kids having the skills to "go out into the world". Well, there is an entire generation of adults out there who learned the skills we are teaching our children, except in a very harsh manner, yet whom are very gentle people. And they are "faking" every last minute of it. PDalley and I have discussed this at length on this board. It IS possible to learn how to operate in a world that you don't understand, that has made clear you are not necessarily wanted because you are not the societal "norm". But it takes a lifetime of practice. Not coddling, practice.

 

But if you are being told, day in and day out, that you just need to "hold on, a cure is coming". That "this next treatment will work". That "you'd be fine if those evil ______ hadn't done this to you". (and no, it doesn't have to be said out loud - the message will come through regardless - any kid going for chelation will know that their parent thinks something awful is wrong with them) -- guess what? That kid will NEVER "go out into the world" successfully. They'll spend their life a victim, not an advocate of their own life.

 

And yes, I am obviously speaking of children who are healthy enough to ever leave home in the first place. As with any other genetic "disorder" (or, who knows, maybe ASD is a next step mutation that hasn't fully matured? No one knows), it resides along a spectrum.

 

So, no. Not a rise. Just more people looking.

 

 

asta

 

Asta, with all due respect -- again, I'm not being sarcastic, but you're talking now about people with Asperger's. Everything you say about Asperger's (geeks, Silicon Valley) I agree with.

 

Children with autism are very different. And, yes, I do know that it's all on the spectrum. Which I still don't get. People w/ Asperger's, as you say, are the computer brains/engineers/Bill Gates of the world. Actual autism is different.

 

Yes, I knew kids who could possibly have had Aspergers as a kid. Not many. Today, I see one every day (my dh). But no, I didn't know the vast amount of kids w/ autism that I'm seeing now. And they're not mild with quirks. They clearly have issues. One little boy I know at 7 had to go to a clinic to learn how to chew food.

 

But I agree w/ your idea that like attracts like and it could be producing more in the world.

 

Hey: I know enough about Aspie's not to get in a major debate. :)

Just interested!

 

Alley

[WishboneDawn]

Honestly? I don't think they've shot up at all.

 

(this is a general rant, Alley, not directed specifically at you)

 

I think the "me" generation (you can call them the "post-boomers" or whatever) put their kids under a helicopter parent microscope in every area of their lives and things that were chalked up to "quirks" or whatever for the past upteen years became the latest, greatest news story of an epidemic since AIDS hit the scene.

 

Like has always found like. It's not "news" that people in silicon valley married one another and had babies. It's also not "news" that there are a bunch of spectrum people in the computer world. The combination does not equal an "explosion" of autism or an "autism pocket" in silicon valley or NCs research triangle or... wherever. It equals one gene set mixing with another gene set and people LOOKING for it.

 

No one used to look. No one used to give a flying (insert chosen expletive here) about the geeks, smarty pants, weirdos, socially backward kids PERIOD.

 

Stop for a second and think back to your elementary school days. You all had at least one of us in your school: the kid who always seemed to speak at the wrong time (at the wrong volume, but not necessarily the wrong subject, if you really listened). The kid who didn't seem to have grown into their body (PE just didn't work for them). The kid who just. didn't. fit. And you couldn't put your finger on WHY they didn't fit - you just knew that they didn't.

 

I hate to say it guys, but how did you treat them? Be honest.

 

Unless they had profoundly observant parents, the only "intervention" they received in their life was on the playground. And it was usually in the form of beatings. If their DID have incredible parents, they got what was available at the time: speech therapy, extremely basic behavioral therapy (no, it's NOT ok to fly into a rage and attempt too destroy things and people just because you're overwhelmed), special shoes, intellectual games. And they STILL got beat up at school.

 

We talk about our HS kids having the skills to "go out into the world". Well, there is an entire generation of adults out there who learned the skills we are teaching our children, except in a very harsh manner, yet whom are very gentle people. And they are "faking" every last minute of it. PDalley and I have discussed this at length on this board. It IS possible to learn how to operate in a world that you don't understand, that has made clear you are not necessarily wanted because you are not the societal "norm". But it takes a lifetime of practice. Not coddling, practice.

 

But if you are being told, day in and day out, that you just need to "hold on, a cure is coming". That "this next treatment will work". That "you'd be fine if those evil ______ hadn't done this to you". (and no, it doesn't have to be said out loud - the message will come through regardless - any kid going for chelation will know that their parent thinks something awful is wrong with them) -- guess what? That kid will NEVER "go out into the world" successfully. They'll spend their life a victim, not an advocate of their own life.

 

And yes, I am obviously speaking of children who are healthy enough to ever leave home in the first place. As with any other genetic "disorder" (or, who knows, maybe ASD is a next step mutation that hasn't fully matured? No one knows), it resides along a spectrum.

 

So, no. Not a rise. Just more people looking.

 

 

asta

 

I'm ADD and one of the oddballs that never quite fit though not to an extreme degree. Funny, I don't think I need a cure. I think every one of the kids who treated me badly because of my oddball traits needed a cure.:glare:

[Wheres Toto]

Asta, with all due respect -- again, I'm not being sarcastic, but you're talking now about people with Asperger's. Everything you say about Asperger's (geeks, Silicon Valley) I agree with.

 

Children with autism are very different. And, yes, I do know that it's all on the spectrum. Which I still don't get. People w/ Asperger's, as you say, are the computer brains/engineers/Bill Gates of the world. Actual autism is different.

 

Yes, I knew kids who could possibly have had Aspergers as a kid. Not many. Today, I see one every day (my dh). But no, I didn't know the vast amount of kids w/ autism that I'm seeing now. And they're not mild with quirks. They clearly have issues. One little boy I know at 7 had to go to a clinic to learn how to chew food.

 

But I agree w/ your idea that like attracts like and it could be producing more in the world.

 

Hey: I know enough about Aspie's not to get in a major debate. :)

Just interested!

 

Alley

 

 

20 or 30 years ago the kids with major issues would have been institutionalized or never let out of the house.

[melmichigan]

Honestly? I don't think they've shot up at all.

 

(this is a general rant, Alley, not directed specifically at you)

 

I think the "me" generation (you can call them the "post-boomers" or whatever) put their kids under a helicopter parent microscope in every area of their lives and things that were chalked up to "quirks" or whatever for the past upteen years became the latest, greatest news story of an epidemic since AIDS hit the scene.

 

Like has always found like. It's not "news" that people in silicon valley married one another and had babies. It's also not "news" that there are a bunch of spectrum people in the computer world. The combination does not equal an "explosion" of autism or an "autism pocket" in silicon valley or NCs research triangle or... wherever. It equals one gene set mixing with another gene set and people LOOKING for it.

 

No one used to look. No one used to give a flying (insert chosen expletive here) about the geeks, smarty pants, weirdos, socially backward kids PERIOD.

 

Stop for a second and think back to your elementary school days. You all had at least one of us in your school: the kid who always seemed to speak at the wrong time (at the wrong volume, but not necessarily the wrong subject, if you really listened). The kid who didn't seem to have grown into their body (PE just didn't work for them). The kid who just. didn't. fit. And you couldn't put your finger on WHY they didn't fit - you just knew that they didn't.

 

I hate to say it guys, but how did you treat them? Be honest.

 

Unless they had profoundly observant parents, the only "intervention" they received in their life was on the playground. And it was usually in the form of beatings. If their DID have incredible parents, they got what was available at the time: speech therapy, extremely basic behavioral therapy (no, it's NOT ok to fly into a rage and attempt too destroy things and people just because you're overwhelmed), special shoes, intellectual games. And they STILL got beat up at school.

 

We talk about our HS kids having the skills to "go out into the world". Well, there is an entire generation of adults out there who learned the skills we are teaching our children, except in a very harsh manner, yet whom are very gentle people. And they are "faking" every last minute of it. PDalley and I have discussed this at length on this board. It IS possible to learn how to operate in a world that you don't understand, that has made clear you are not necessarily wanted because you are not the societal "norm". But it takes a lifetime of practice. Not coddling, practice.

 

But if you are being told, day in and day out, that you just need to "hold on, a cure is coming". That "this next treatment will work". That "you'd be fine if those evil ______ hadn't done this to you". (and no, it doesn't have to be said out loud - the message will come through regardless - any kid going for chelation will know that their parent thinks something awful is wrong with them) -- guess what? That kid will NEVER "go out into the world" successfully. They'll spend their life a victim, not an advocate of their own life.

 

And yes, I am obviously speaking of children who are healthy enough to ever leave home in the first place. As with any other genetic "disorder" (or, who knows, maybe ASD is a next step mutation that hasn't fully matured? No one knows), it resides along a spectrum.

 

So, no. Not a rise. Just more people looking.

 

 

asta

 

Thank you.

 

Children with autism are very different. And, yes, I do know that it's all on the spectrum. Which I still don't get. People w/ Asperger's, as you say, are the computer brains/engineers/Bill Gates of the world. Actual autism is different.

 

 

But we are all being lumped together so why wouldn't you see a huge increase in numbers? In the old days, unless you were Rain Man you didn't have autism, you just made do. Today there is a diagnosis for everything. Kids don't have recess so we drug half the class so they'll sit still, label them PDD-NOS, and then wonder why the numbers are rising.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

Autism wasn't talked about because it was blamed on the mother.

 

Severely autistic kids were tagged deaf, given hearing aids and locked away.

 

There are some irish fairy tales from the 1700s that describe the behavior of an autistic child. I'll see if I can find it.

[Alicia64]

Autism wasn't talked about because it was blamed on the mother.

 

Severely autistic kids were tagged deaf, given hearing aids and locked away.

 

There are some irish fairy tales from the 1700s that describe the behavior of an autistic child. I'll see if I can find it.

 

Okay, this makes sense.

 

Alley

[twoforjoy]

Honestly? I don't think they've shot up at all.

 

(this is a general rant, Alley, not directed specifically at you)

 

I think the "me" generation (you can call them the "post-boomers" or whatever) put their kids under a helicopter parent microscope in every area of their lives and things that were chalked up to "quirks" or whatever for the past upteen years became the latest, greatest news story of an epidemic since AIDS hit the scene.

 

Like has always found like. It's not "news" that people in silicon valley married one another and had babies. It's also not "news" that there are a bunch of spectrum people in the computer world. The combination does not equal an "explosion" of autism or an "autism pocket" in silicon valley or NCs research triangle or... wherever. It equals one gene set mixing with another gene set and people LOOKING for it.

 

No one used to look. No one used to give a flying (insert chosen expletive here) about the geeks, smarty pants, weirdos, socially backward kids PERIOD.

 

Stop for a second and think back to your elementary school days. You all had at least one of us in your school: the kid who always seemed to speak at the wrong time (at the wrong volume, but not necessarily the wrong subject, if you really listened). The kid who didn't seem to have grown into their body (PE just didn't work for them). The kid who just. didn't. fit. And you couldn't put your finger on WHY they didn't fit - you just knew that they didn't.

 

I hate to say it guys, but how did you treat them? Be honest.

 

Unless they had profoundly observant parents, the only "intervention" they received in their life was on the playground. And it was usually in the form of beatings. If their DID have incredible parents, they got what was available at the time: speech therapy, extremely basic behavioral therapy (no, it's NOT ok to fly into a rage and attempt too destroy things and people just because you're overwhelmed), special shoes, intellectual games. And they STILL got beat up at school.

 

We talk about our HS kids having the skills to "go out into the world". Well, there is an entire generation of adults out there who learned the skills we are teaching our children, except in a very harsh manner, yet whom are very gentle people. And they are "faking" every last minute of it. PDalley and I have discussed this at length on this board. It IS possible to learn how to operate in a world that you don't understand, that has made clear you are not necessarily wanted because you are not the societal "norm". But it takes a lifetime of practice. Not coddling, practice.

 

But if you are being told, day in and day out, that you just need to "hold on, a cure is coming". That "this next treatment will work". That "you'd be fine if those evil ______ hadn't done this to you". (and no, it doesn't have to be said out loud - the message will come through regardless - any kid going for chelation will know that their parent thinks something awful is wrong with them) -- guess what? That kid will NEVER "go out into the world" successfully. They'll spend their life a victim, not an advocate of their own life.

 

And yes, I am obviously speaking of children who are healthy enough to ever leave home in the first place. As with any other genetic "disorder" (or, who knows, maybe ASD is a next step mutation that hasn't fully matured? No one knows), it resides along a spectrum.

 

So, no. Not a rise. Just more people looking.

 

 

asta

 

I think you do a good job explaining how higher-functioning ASD kids probably went undiagnosed previously.

 

At the other end of the spectrum, when we're talking about severely autistic kids, I tend to think that many of them would have been diagnosed as mentally retarded in the past. It's my understanding that we've seen diagnoses of mental retardation drop at a rate pretty similar to that at which we've seen diagnoses of autism rise. So, it seems likely that we're seeing a diagnostic shift rather than a rise in incidence.

[Alicia64]

I think you do a good job explaining how higher-functioning ASD kids probably went undiagnosed previously.

 

At the other end of the spectrum, when we're talking about severely autistic kids, I tend to think that many of them would have been diagnosed as mentally retarded in the past. It's my understanding that we've seen diagnoses of mental retardation drop at a rate pretty similar to that at which we've seen diagnoses of autism rise. So, it seems likely that we're seeing a diagnostic shift rather than a rise in incidence.

 

This argument really makes a lot of sense to me.

 

Thanks for writing.

 

Alley

[pdalley]

Honestly? I don't think they've shot up at all.

 

(this is a general rant, Alley, not directed specifically at you)

 

I think the "me" generation (you can call them the "post-boomers" or whatever) put their kids under a helicopter parent microscope in every area of their lives and things that were chalked up to "quirks" or whatever for the past upteen years became the latest, greatest news story of an epidemic since AIDS hit the scene.

 

Like has always found like. It's not "news" that people in silicon valley married one another and had babies. It's also not "news" that there are a bunch of spectrum people in the computer world. The combination does not equal an "explosion" of autism or an "autism pocket" in silicon valley or NCs research triangle or... wherever. It equals one gene set mixing with another gene set and people LOOKING for it.

 

No one used to look. No one used to give a flying (insert chosen expletive here) about the geeks, smarty pants, weirdos, socially backward kids PERIOD.

 

Stop for a second and think back to your elementary school days. You all had at least one of us in your school: the kid who always seemed to speak at the wrong time (at the wrong volume, but not necessarily the wrong subject, if you really listened). The kid who didn't seem to have grown into their body (PE just didn't work for them). The kid who just. didn't. fit. And you couldn't put your finger on WHY they didn't fit - you just knew that they didn't.

 

I hate to say it guys, but how did you treat them? Be honest.

 

Unless they had profoundly observant parents, the only "intervention" they received in their life was on the playground. And it was usually in the form of beatings. If their DID have incredible parents, they got what was available at the time: speech therapy, extremely basic behavioral therapy (no, it's NOT ok to fly into a rage and attempt too destroy things and people just because you're overwhelmed), special shoes, intellectual games. And they STILL got beat up at school.

 

We talk about our HS kids having the skills to "go out into the world". Well, there is an entire generation of adults out there who learned the skills we are teaching our children, except in a very harsh manner, yet whom are very gentle people. And they are "faking" every last minute of it. PDalley and I have discussed this at length on this board. It IS possible to learn how to operate in a world that you don't understand, that has made clear you are not necessarily wanted because you are not the societal "norm". But it takes a lifetime of practice. Not coddling, practice.

 

But if you are being told, day in and day out, that you just need to "hold on, a cure is coming". That "this next treatment will work". That "you'd be fine if those evil ______ hadn't done this to you". (and no, it doesn't have to be said out loud - the message will come through regardless - any kid going for chelation will know that their parent thinks something awful is wrong with them) -- guess what? That kid will NEVER "go out into the world" successfully. They'll spend their life a victim, not an advocate of their own life.

 

And yes, I am obviously speaking of children who are healthy enough to ever leave home in the first place. As with any other genetic "disorder" (or, who knows, maybe ASD is a next step mutation that hasn't fully matured? No one knows), it resides along a spectrum.

 

So, no. Not a rise. Just more people looking.

 

 

asta

 

 

Yes. This. My brother is as Aspie as they come. Completely misdiagnosed. Was hospitalized three times before he was sixteen. You wouldn't know it if you met him today but he's just as Aspie now as he was then.

 

And let's not get into the horrors of being an Aspie during the Freudian psychotherapy phase. It was horrible. I spent close to ten years in that type of therapy and was misdiagnosed with many different things - even was convinced I had been sexually abused. (I wasn't)

 

My Great Uncle had double BA's in engineering. He had a Masters from MIT. He was a Naval Engineer. He read Math books for fun. He was a leader in the community but he was painfully social awkward. It was his wife that smoothed things over and taught him what to say and when to say it.

 

My great great great grandmother was widowed in the Civil War and packed up her two kids and her piano. Yes, her piano. She had it moved across the swamps of Florida. She was fixated on her piano.

 

When we were in school - as Asta points out - those of us that were severe were in separate classrooms. Those of us who were not were teased and tormented by peers and teachers alike. We were trying to figure out the rules and no one had given us the rule book. I clearly remember people who today would be diagnosed Aspie.

 

I truly believe there is no explosion. I believe our eyes are opening to differences. It really bothers me that the current message seems to be that autism is some horrible dread disease. It's a challenge. We all have them. Some people have MS, CF, CP, etc. This is ours. It's not worse or better than anyone else. It just is. I'm teaching my children the 'rules' as best as I've figured them out. They know that their autism has given them gifts - music, golf skills, math skills - as well as challenges - not understanding social situations, sensory issues, etc. And that doesn't make THEM different. Just makes their gifts and challenges different.

 

Just like anyone else really. No two people have the same 'issues'.

[asta]

And may I add that Singapore Math is the bomb.

 

 

a

[Parrothead]

I think you do a good job explaining how higher-functioning ASD kids probably went undiagnosed previously.

 

At the other end of the spectrum, when we're talking about severely autistic kids, I tend to think that many of them would have been diagnosed as mentally retarded in the past. It's my understanding that we've seen diagnoses of mental retardation drop at a rate pretty similar to that at which we've seen diagnoses of autism rise. So, it seems likely that we're seeing a diagnostic shift rather than a rise in incidence.

:iagree: And they were institutionalized. Parents were strongly encouraged to not keep their kids at home. They were also strongly encouraged to not visit after they placed the kids in the institution.

[Haiku]

:iagree: And they were institutionalized. Parents were strongly encouraged to not keep their kids at home. They were also strongly encouraged to not visit after they placed the kids in the institution.

 

Yup. When I was growing up we had a state mental hospital in our city crammed full of kids. My dad had to go there on occasion due to some volunteer work he did. We didn't see these kids because most of them did not live at home and, even if they did, they certainly didn't go to public school.

 

Tara

[Spy Car]

And may I add that Singapore Math is the bomb.

 

 

a

 

:iagree:

 

Your question about "how did you treat them?" set off a flood of memories.

 

I had such a strange, almost bifurcated social experience in school. On one hand I was neuro-typical and part of the jock-social set, and at the same time I would slip off and spend time with my friends in the Rocket/Chess Clubs (different "activities" same membership).

 

Looking back I was probably the only member of the clubs who wasn't an Aspie (although "nerd" was about as close as we had to having a label for ASD in those days).

 

Most of those kids went through hell socially. One day our history teacher in Jr High School announced that one student has "accidentally" hung himself on a dog collar. It really shook me. Jeff and I were never particularly close, but we were friendly. It made me feel sick, and that I hadn't done enough.

 

Forty years later his death still haunts me.

 

Bill

[twoforjoy]

:iagree: And they were institutionalized. Parents were strongly encouraged to not keep their kids at home. They were also strongly encouraged to not visit after they placed the kids in the institution.

 

Oh, absolutely. I have an aunt who has cerebral palsy and is severely mentally retarded (I don't know what her diagnosis would have been if she'd been diagnosed today). My grandmother's doctor told her she should tell people the baby had died at birth, put her in an institution, and never see her again. It's just horrifying that that was pretty much standard practice at the time.

[asta]

:iagree:

 

Your question about "how did you treat them?" set off a flood of memories.

 

I had such a strange, almost bifurcated social experience in school. On one hand I was neuro-typical and part of the jock-social set, and at the same time I would slip off and spend time with my friends in the Rocket/Chess Clubs (different "activities" same membership).

 

Looking back I was probably the only member of the clubs who wasn't an Aspie (although "nerd" was about as close as we had to having a label for ASD in those days).

 

Most of those kids went through hell socially. One day our history teacher in Jr High School announced that one student has "accidentally" hung himself on a dog collar. It really shook me. Jeff and I were never particularly close, but we were friendly. It made me feel sick, and that I hadn't done enough.

 

Forty years later his death still haunts me.

 

Bill

 

Bill,

 

If you were nice to him, trust me, that was enough. You weren't his demon; other things were.

 

 

 

I say this from experience - both having lost the friends, and having been the taunted. I remember the faces of everyone who was nice, but I still seethe (and know the names of) the ones who taunted. It ain't something religion or therapy fixes.

 

 

a

[LibraryLover]

It's true that insitutions used to be filled with children...children who got to stay there forever and ever. Sometimes autism looks a whole lot like what used to be called Mental Retardation. These kids didn't go to school, didn't get 20 hours of ABA /week, they didn't have sensory overload tantrums in the grocery store. They were locked up tight.

[asta]

And the ABA of today is not the ABA of "yesteryear".

 

My boss from the website where I work bears some SERIOUS psychological scars from the "helpful ABA" he was given for his extremely high functioning (genius level) autism. Oh, and he's got some nice physical scars, too.

 

 

a

[WishboneDawn]

And may I add that Singapore Math is the bomb.

 

 

a

 

If you start a fan club I'm joining. I think it's the only curriculum I have an emotional attachment too. :D

[joannqn]

I had avoided this thread but I was bored this morning. I've read the last half of it...interesting conversation.

 

I think I had a different childhood experience. I can remember ONE kid in all of my classes that would now be diagnosed with aspergers today. He was very obviously aspergers now that I have a label for it. He was in my GATE class in the 6th grade. Everyone else in my gifted/honors/advanced/AP classes seemed socially normal.

 

I also had a lot of exposure to the more seriously "mentally retarded" kids. My brother has fragile x syndrome and went to a self-contained school because he was too severely retarded to go anywhere else. To this day, he functions at about the level of a 3 year old and lives in a group home (he lived at home until he was about 16). Anyway, my mom took me out of school so I could go on field trips with my brother's school on a regular basis. Sometimes I'd be assigned to help out with one of the "mild" kids. Mild means they weren't going to bolt into the street; their behavior was mild but their cognitive delays were still severe.

 

Both of my uncles also had Fragile X Syndrome. One of them is mild enough to be able to to "workshop" (jobs for the mentally disabled). The other has been in a large group home type institution since he was very young. We visited him regularly, so again, I was exposed to many autistic children and adults there too.

 

I saw enough of this that in high school I did a controversial topic speech assignment arguing that abortion should be legal and encouraged for people who know their child will be born mentally retarded. I felt that no mom or family should be forced to give birth to a mentally retarded baby; it was too costly to the family (in money, time, stress) and too costly to society. (Not my current beliefs.)

 

Before I got married, I told my now husband I would not have children if I was a carrier of Fragile X Syndrome. Obviously, that test was negative.

 

I do feel that we see more mildly autistic kids, like those with aspergers. In my entire childhood, I can only remember one kid. I know four kids with asperger's personally and see lots more that I don't know. I think the mild side of the autism spectrum is increasing, though I don't know why.

 

I personally don't vaccinate, but the autism argument is not the major reason why. Even if I changed my mind about vaccines, my kids would never get the pertussis vaccine because they have three strikes against them putting them at higher risk for a major adverse reaction. Nope, uh-huh, ain't going to do it.

[asta]

If you start a fan club I'm joining. I think it's the only curriculum I have an emotional attachment too. :D

 

You know??!!

 

All the way through Alg 2, go to take a pre-calc entrance test and find GLARING holes in BASIC things. Had a pity party and then a revelation: kid started maths education in Europe! So I got ahold of SM and went back to the basics. All of the sudden, I'm hearing "wow - I never really understood why that worked in that manner before - this makes complete sense. How come the Americans don't teach it like this?"

 

AAAIIIIEEEE!!!

 

I swear, we would have been done with Calculus by now if we'd started with SM. We've had to "back up" so many times due to "holes" that wouldn't have existed if I'd just... realized... brain patterning starts YOUNG! His math brain was patterned on SM (or SM-style). All of these years, he was trying to fit the other square pegs into his little round holes and nothing was fitting. Poor kid.

 

Yes, a major DUH moment. That is, if you think about it, incredibly relevant to this thread.

 

 

a

[pdalley]

You know??!!

 

All the way through Alg 2, go to take a pre-calc entrance test and find GLARING holes in BASIC things. Had a pity party and then a revelation: kid started maths education in Europe! So I got ahold of SM and went back to the basics. All of the sudden, I'm hearing "wow - I never really understood why that worked in that manner before - this makes complete sense. How come the Americans don't teach it like this?"

 

AAAIIIIEEEE!!!

 

I swear, we would have been done with Calculus by now if we'd started with SM. We've had to "back up" so many times due to "holes" that wouldn't have existed if I'd just... realized... brain patterning starts YOUNG! His math brain was patterned on SM (or SM-style). All of these years, he was trying to fit the other square pegs into his little round holes and nothing was fitting. Poor kid.

 

Yes, a major DUH moment. That is, if you think about it, incredibly relevant to this thread.

 

 

a

 

I'm using Standards with my youngest - the mathy kid. He LOVES it. I could not get this child to sit and do any work. He did not see the need for it. Thanks to Kahn Academy's videos he will sit down and do his work. We always must start with math and if I don't watch him he'll work ahead.

 

The other two are not that mathy and like MUS but I won't use anything else but Singapore with the youngest. He finds it engaging and he'sthe most classically autistic IMO - (I really cannot read him very well at all and he's very self contained. He truly does not need people. He's happy as a clam on his own.) And to tie it in with the thread? This kid was on a delayed - one shot at a time schedule. Has not ever even run a fever as the result of a vaccine. He's also the most healthy of my three.

[A.D.]

Oh, absolutely. I have an aunt who has cerebral palsy and is severely mentally retarded (I don't know what her diagnosis would have been if she'd been diagnosed today). My grandmother's doctor told her she should tell people the baby had died at birth, put her in an institution, and never see her again. It's just horrifying that that was pretty much standard practice at the time.

 

My brother was born in 1963 with the same condition. A county nurse showed up at our house (I wasn't born yet) a few weeks later to take him away to a state facility. My mom declined, and was told that the nurse would be returning later with the sheriff to get him. Supposedly my mom walked the lady to the door by her arm, and was yelling something about somebody getting her shotgun for her. The county nurse didn't return, and my folks raised my brother the best they could. They also had some epic battles with the school system over what it was supposed to be providing for special education students.

[scrappyhappymama]

I'm really surprised at the lack of logic here. It is very, very difficult to PROVE a negative. What about factors that have not been scientifically tested for yet? What about factors that have not even been discovered yet? Vaccines are made up of many different components. Has each and every component been isolated and studied? Maybe there is a seemingly harmless component that is really the culprit. Maybe it is a particular combination of vaccines, or maybe there is an overload point at which the trigger occurs? We don't even know yet WHAT the cause/trigger/genetic issue is. So how are we to definitively state that a particular cause has been disproven? There are SO many variables. SO much more science to pursue.

 

 

So far, there is no proof that there is a causal link and not just a correlation. It may never be proven. But to dismiss these folks valid experiences outright as invalid and unworthy of additional study is insensitive and insulting, in my opinion. The correlation is striking, and compelling and I think it is worthy of further research.

 

My theory is that vaccines do not cause autism, but that in some way they serve as a trigger for children who are already genetically susceptible.

 

There are components in vaccines that are regulated in IV fluids for premature neonates because of their known neurological effects on infants, but which are allowed in much greater amounts in vaccines, with no studies done to prove their safety. And this is just one potential concern and possibility waiting to be further explored.

 

It is like saying prove the moon isn't made of green cheese.

 

Bill

 

Sigh. No it's not. Because we have been to the moon, and we know what it IS made of. So it is perfectly logical to eliminate green cheese and ground beef and snot.

 

But, we do not know what causes the spectrum disorders or what may trigger them. It's still being studied. One could logically say that it is provable that "flying to the moon" or "digging a well" does not cause autism, because there is no correlation between those actions and autism. No toddler has flown to the moon or dug a well. But MANY have manifested signs of autism after a batch of vaccinations, when they may have not manifested those signs before. So, seems to me, this is worthy of more study, and is far from PROVEN to be unrelated.

 

You're right of course but despite the fact the no one can prove unicorns don't exist, I'm still not going to believe they do because there is no evidence that they do.

 

When there as some evidence, any data at all, that vaccines cause autism, I'll consider the matter.

 

I am not suggesting, nor are most of the parents who have seen a link between vaccines and ASD in their own children, that a causal relationship between vaccines and autism has been PROVEN. We simply want more research to be done, and for the cause, whatever it is to be discovered so it can be addressed. And some of us aren't willing to experiment with the health of our own children in the meantime.

 

But to suggest there is NO evidence and nothing worthy of further investigation, and to compare a lot of family's valid experiences to unicorns and green cheese is just, I'm sorry but it is, insulting.