Students suspended because they wouldn't stand for Pledge.

[*anj*]

I don't think we should judge someone on the basis of their cultural heritage.

 

Or for their name, especially considering how many of us don't like the names we were given!

My own middle name is a whopper. It is so bad that I used to lie to my friends and tell them it was something else because it was so bad. It's actually my paternal grandmother's name, but try telling that to a bunch of 8 year old girls on a playground. I don't think so.

[Jumping In Puddles]

I think that they should have to stand for it, but that's me. I also think that it's deplorable that Obama doesn't pledge to the flag and he is running for president. That one leaves me scratching my head.:001_huh:

 

 

 

One thing though, that picture was NOT during the Pledge Of Allegiance, it was during the National Anthem. <- Link is to the original source!

 

The picture just speaks for itself and I feel the same way about the national anthem as I do the pledge of allegiance.

 

You're right the picture just speaks for itself!

I guess President Bush doesn't salute the flag during the anthem either!. I also have a pic of President GWBush not saluting also.. I'll dig up after dinner.

 

 

 

 

And for the records, Barrack Hussein Obama, who is anti-homeschooling..did refuse to say the pledge. I saw it on TV myself. He also refused to hold his hand over his heart.

For the record he is not against homeschooling. Do you have a link to back your statement up? What was it you saw on TV? According to Time Magazine (the source of the picture) it was during Tom Harkin's Iowa Steak Dinner. Did you see him not salute and say the Pledge? Or did you see him sing the Anthem, but not salute? Or are you thinking of something else entirely because I would LOVE to see a link to that.

 

EDIT: Is this the video you saw on TV yourself? It's not the pledge, it's the original source, and Obama is singing the anthem! Link to video.

 

"I was taught by my grandfather that you put your hand over your heart during the pledge, but during the Star Spangled Banner, you sing!" Obama said.

"I have been pledging allegiance since I was a kid"

Link

[Mamagistra]

I think if someone is not proud to be an American, then they should just exit the country.

 

Aw, Summer...now that is a bit harsh. :confused: While I feel blessed to have been born here, there are many things happening in my country of which I am NOT proud (over-arching theft of freedoms, for one). While that doesn't mean I'd choose China, Belarus, or any other country over the USA, it does mean that I'm unlikely to jump up and sing Lee Greenwood anytime soon. ;):D

[chiguirre]

If they do not like America enough to stand up and show respect on occassion, then they should leave the public schools and stop using up American tax dollars.

 

Perhaps these kids would like nothing more than to leave school, but there is the small issue of mandatory attendance laws. If they actually did stop using up tax dollars by attending school, we'd just have to pay for their detention in a juvenile correctional facility because they would be truant.

[CookieMonster]

And I've seen him say the pledge MANY times in Congress on CSPAN. There are videos on Snopes of him with his hand over his heart and saying the pledge and National Anthem in other venues.

 

eta: the videos are at the bottom of this page http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/anthem.asp do not spread unjust and unfounded rumours just because you don't like a candidate.

 

 

 

Thank you. I hate for misinformation to be spread.

 

And, thank you for correcting my previous words. Those are important distinctions.

 

FTR, I think this whole case sounds a bit bizarre. And as to your question, w-h-y, *anj*, I just don't think we can know at this point. There isn't enough information available to me to decide if this is all there is to the story. I'm sure you'll keep us updated if more information comes to light. ;)

[Mamagistra]

This is ridiculous, IMO. So, children who don't want to pledge allegiance should be deported to another country?

 

Well, jgriff, just think: they are likely to do better in math and science if they are! :lol::lol:

 

(It's a joke, y'all. OK? A joke!) :D

[Karenciavo]

You're right the picture just speaks for itself!

I guess President Bush is not patriotic either. I also have a pic of President GWBush not saluting also.. I'll dig up after dinner.

 

 

 

A person is not required to put their hand over their heart during the national anthem.

[chiguirre]

Well, jgriff, just think: they are likely to do better in math and science if they are! :lol::lol:

 

(It's a joke, y'all. OK? A joke!) :D

 

I had to sop up water from my keyboard because I :lol::lol::lol::lol:.

[Jumping In Puddles]

A person is not required to put their hand over their heart during the national anthem.

 

Right! According to the original source of the photo (Time), this photo was taken of Obama during the national anthem.

 

Are you backing me up or did you think it was the pledge? edit: Because here is the video! Linky. Watch for yourself! FWIW, Obama is seen singing the anthem.

[Karenciavo]

I had to sop up water from my keyboard because I :lol::lol::lol::lol:.

 

You need this smilie Julianna

[Danestress]

I would also suspend them if they were on a school trip to, say, Japan or Mexico or Iraq and refused to stand for their pledge (assuming they have one, but you get my point). Standing shows respect. Pledging shows allegiance. I don't get being unwilling to stand out of respect for another country's anthem, let alone your own.

 

I don't care who says the pledge or sings. I don't care if people salute the flag and just stand at attention for the anthem. I don't think they are intentionally showing disrespect, and reasonable people differ on the proper etiquette. But once your host/teacher/parent explains that this is about respect and not allegiance, I say stand and make every kid stand.

[Karenciavo]

Right! According to the original source of the photo (Time), this photo was taken of Obama during the national anthem.

 

Are you backing me up or did you think it was the pledge?

 

I'm just posting to whom it may concern :D

[Elaine]

One thing though, that picture was NOT during the Pledge Of Allegiance, it was during the National Anthem. <- Link is to the original source!

 

 

 

You're right the picture just speaks for itself!

I guess President Bush is not patriotic either. I also have a pic of President GWBush not saluting also.. I'll dig up after dinner.

 

 

 

 

For the record he is not against homeschooling. Do you have a link to back your statement up? What was it you saw on TV? According to Time Magazine (the source of the picture) it was during Tom Harkin's Iowa Steak Dinner. Did you see him not salute and say the Pledge? Or did you see him sing the Anthem, but not salute? Or are you thinking of something else entirely because I would LOVE to see a link to that.

 

President Bush Sr. is former military. I believe they can stand at attention during the national anthem. And, I never said Obama wasn't patriotic.

[pmegan]

I think it's opinion, not intolerance. No one is saying "Do this or else." They are voicing strong opinion, same as you.

 

Um, that is exactly what people are saying. "Say the Pledge or leave the country."

 

I'm really shocked at the ignorance and lies on this thread.

[Mrs Mungo]

President Bush Sr. is former military. I believe they can stand at attention during the national anthem.

 

Actually, they are only *supposed* to stand at attention while in uniform. Although many of them stand at attention out of habit even when in civilian clothes.

 

x-posting this again:

Actually, US flag etiquitte is pretty confusing to most people. My military officer wives' handbook says:

 

"When the National Anthem is played outdoors and the flag is displayed, place your hand over your heart and face the flag. Indoors, it is not necessary to place your hand over your heart.

 

When the American flag passes in front of you at a parade or review, you may place your hand over your heart."

 

You are supposed to put your hand over your heart *when* the flag is displayed *and* you are outdoors. Indoors you do not.

 

Of course, if you want to put your hand over your heart indoors you may but it doesn't necessarily make you more patriotic than someone who follows the rules.

[Elaine]

Um, that is exactly what people are saying. "Say the Pledge or leave the country."

 

I'm really shocked at the ignorance and lies on this thread.

 

Just because someone does not believe what you do, Megan, does not make them ignorant.

[Elaine]

Actually, they are only *supposed* to stand at attention while in uniform. Although many of them stand at attention out of habit even when in civilian clothes.

 

x-posting this again:

Actually, US flag etiquitte is pretty confusing to most people. My military officer wives' handbook says:

 

"When the National Anthem is played outdoors and the flag is displayed, place your hand over your heart and face the flag. Indoors, it is not necessary to place your hand over your heart.

 

When the American flag passes in front of you at a parade or review, you may place your hand over your heart."

 

You are supposed to put your hand over your heart *when* the flag is displayed *and* you are outdoors. Indoors you do not.

 

Of course, if you want to put your hand over your heart indoors you may but it doesn't necessarily make you more patriotic than someone who follows the rules.

 

Thanks for posting this. I read somewhere that protocal was changed and you didn't have to put your hand over your heart if you were military, just stand at attention.

[melissel]

Just because someone does not believe what you do, Megan, does not make them ignorant.

 

I'm guessing she's probably referring more to the whole Obama urban legend/smear campaign/misinformation thing.

[pmegan]

Just because someone does not believe what you do, Megan, does not make them ignorant.

 

People can believe what they want, but passing along blatant untruths as anything but is not okay in my book.

[Jumping In Puddles]

President Bush Sr. is former military. I believe they can stand at attention during the national anthem. And, I never said Obama wasn't patriotic.

 

Your right, I'll change that headline.

 

I would love it if people would include links in their posts (not directed at you, Elaine... I mean people in general). I either back up with a legitimate link, or I don't post. I don't want to spread rumors.

[Mrs Mungo]

I would also suspend them if they were on a school trip to, say, Japan or Mexico or Iraq and refused to stand for their pledge (assuming they have one, but you get my point). Standing shows respect. Pledging shows allegiance. I don't get being unwilling to stand out of respect for another country's anthem, let alone your own.

 

I don't care who says the pledge or sings. I don't care if people salute the flag and just stand at attention for the anthem. I don't think they are intentionally showing disrespect, and reasonable people differ on the proper etiquette. But once your host/teacher/parent explains that this is about respect and not allegiance, I say stand and make every kid stand.

 

The original Supreme Court decision that I posted earlier in the thread didn't rest on religious freedom or saying oaths or pledges. It rested on freedom of speech.

 

An article about a similar situation elsewhere:

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2004/12/19/pupils_who_ignore_pledge_reported/

 

quote from that article:

The Supreme Court has ruled that students cannot be forced to stand during the pledge. Courts have ruled that teachers can remove students only if they disrupt the ceremony, said Heidi Perlman, a spokewoman for the Department of Education.

 

Everyone has a right to their opinion or emotions about the issue but the fact is the school violated the law.

 

I pledge the flag, I teach my children to do so. However, not everyone feels the same way and I have a vested interest in making sure *their* rights are protected because I want *my* rights protected when *I* go against the majority (like my decision to homeschool).

[farmnwife]

These kinds of threads are one of the reasons why I don't read the posts on the general forum. A few people give their opinion and since someone disagrees with them, they are labeled intolerant. The ones calling foul see their views and opinions as just. They are tolerant only when someone agrees with them.

Guess I'll stick with the curriculum board.:auto:

 

judi

[Mrs Mungo]

Thanks for posting this. I read somewhere that protocal was changed and you didn't have to put your hand over your heart if you were military, just stand at attention.

 

Here you go:

 

http://www.militarytimes.com/news/2007/08/military_salute_070802w/

 

But this involves an actual salute when outdoors instead of placing your hand over your heart, not just standing at attention.

[Unicorn.]

Except the question is, does the government have the right to require individuals to make this pledge regardless of their individual values? Rules aren't created out of a vacuum, they reflect the system (culture and government) which creates them. If freedom is the value we are pledging to, then isn't mandatory pledging a violation of that freedom? Or do you not think that freedom is the core American value?

 

 

 

Personally, I have no problem w/ religious exemption to saying the pledge. Aside from that, I think if you want to live here and enjoy the "freedoms" that our country is based on, then you should pledge your allegience to this country. Freedom is a privelage, not a right.

 

ETA: I hope that didn't come across as snarky, I truly didn't mean it to be!

 

You know, a better punishment would have been to have them write a 10 page paper on what it means to be an American.

[Ravin]

Stepping into this discussion a bit late, but felt I had to say something.

 

The swearing of oaths (and a pledge is an oath) is very important in my religion, and not taken lightly. I would encourage my children to say the pledge, without the "under god" line that was added in in the 1950's, if they were saying it solo for some reason. However, because we are not followers of the God mentioned in the Pledge, it wouldn't be right, in my opinion, to say the pledge as part of a large group where it is implied one is saying the modern "under God" version.

 

Also, by proper etiquette, holding one's hand over one's heart when the Star Spangled Banner is playing or the National Ensign is being presented is not necessary unless one is wearing a hat which is supposed to be removed out of respect. Standing at respectful attention is also proper etiquette; in shots I've seen of Obama not putting his hand over his heart, he wasn't saying the pledge, he was listening to the National Anthem, an standing in respectful silence at attention to do so.

 

Anyway, as a veteran and someone who swore an oath to not just hold allegiance with my nation, but to serve it and if need be defend it with my life's blood, I find the "love it or leave it" mentality to be incredibly antithetical to the ideals of our country. As others have said, freedom of concience, not mindless nationalism, is what is at stake. If one sees something wrong with our nation/society/government, one has the right to object to the wrongness, and the duty to work to make it right, by speaking out if nothing else. Merely fleeing or agreeing are not acts of good citizenship.

 

I will not say the pledge in its modern form for religious reasons; if my children come to the same conclusion, I would support that and they should not lose their right to access state-funded education because of it (not that I'm inclined to send them to public school in the first place).

[Danestress]

Okay, I withdraw my opinion:) I think if there is a SC case on point, than the school district is wasting tax dollars violating it. But since student's free speech right are curtailed in certain areas, I didn't even think about looking for on point case law. I think students SHOULD be required to stand, but I can also see how it might be a waste of time to choose that particular hill to die on.

 

Still, I would instruct my own child to stand for ANYONE'S pledge or anthem, out of respect for that country. It doesn't mean you approve or are giving allegiance. It means you respect the nation, even if you wish the nation would change. So, for example, despite many problems I have with my own nation's policies, and those of many others, I would stand for ANY anthem if I were at the olympics.

[Mama Lynx]

*I* stand during the anthem, out of respect for my husband. :)

 

*I* don't think it's disrespectful to not stand during the anthem though. I can think of LOTS of very valid reasons why one might not stand. I think it's very presumptious and rude for people to apply a label of "disrespect" to another persons decision to not go along with the crowd.

 

I agree that schools try to assert psychological control over the students, and I don't think that's a "good" thing, especially as far as personal rights/choices are concerned. I don't think there is any reason to take any sort of disciplinary action against the students.

 

No.

 

Standing for the Pledge is, by definition, an act of respect. If you choose to not do it, you are, then, making an act of disrespect. You are choosing to not show that respect that others are showing.

 

If I choose not to go along with the crowd by wearing red instead of blue, that's a personal right/choice that does not in any way imply disrespect (unless there is some societal attachment to one color as respectful or sacred, for some reason). If I choose not to go along with the crowd by homeschooling instead of sending my kids to public school, that is a personal choice, and not an act of disrespect towards the school.

 

But if you choose to not do something that is defined as an act of respect, then your choice is disrespectful of that thing. It's no different than if I chose to talk through a moment of silence.

[Mrs Mungo]

Personally, I have no problem w/ religious exemption to saying the pledge. Aside from that, I think if you want to live here and enjoy the "freedoms" that our country is based on, then you should pledge your allegience to this country. Freedom is a privelage, not a right.

 

Actually, no. In this country it's a right. I may not agree with people who don't say the pledge but it's their right not to say the pledge. Their decision need not be made on a religious basis.

 

ETA: I hope that didn't come across as snarky, I truly didn't mean it to be!

 

I didn't take it as snarky but according to the law (rather than the court of public opinion) you're wrong.

 

You know, a better punishment would have been to have them write a 10 page paper on what it means to be an American.

 

I think what it means to be an American is to live in freedom and fight to keep those freedoms.

[Phred]

I thought it was federal law that students were to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance, although they were not required to recite it. I thought I remembered hearing about this while I was in school - as a current issue. If I remember correctly, there were immigrants who were not standing or saying the Pledge and it caused and actual policy to be written up.

 

---------------------------

 

And, yes, I do think that somewhere you have to draw the line and say, "This is America, for crying out loud."

 

Yeah... it's federal statue 2.03.01. It reads, Anyone not standing for the Pledge of Allegiance shall be water boarded and sent to Guantanamo Bay for the rest of their lives.

 

Federal law, give me a break! This IS America and what you're suggesting is NOT America. We don't waste our time on federal laws requiring children to stand for the recitation of a "pledge" that young minds can't begin to understand the gravity of. Please, when most of them are saying, "I pledge a legion to the flag and the public for Richard Stands. One naked individual, under God, invisible, with liver tea and justice for all." Now... how in the world is a first grader to understand what the heck that means?

 

Back on the subject... the United States of America is built on the concept that the dissenter's voice is every bit as necessary as the majority's. That's why we don't have silly laws like those requiring people to stand for the pledge of allegiance. That's the kind of thing you find in repressive regimes who are looking for excuses to remove dissenters. So do me a favor... you find that law so I can bring it to the attention of those who will take the time to see it stricken from the books. It's as unAmerican as it gets.

 

Now... my two cents on this practice of not standing for the pledge? Dump the pledge altogether and sing "You're a Grand Ol' Flag" at the start of each day. ~You're the emblem of, the land I love. The home of the free and the brave.~ Nothing to object to, and if the Jehovah's Witnesses want to opt out they can hum along.

[j.griff]

I don't call people sir or ma'am. Calling people sir and ma'am is defined as showing respect. I am not disrespectful to people, just because I don't address them with sir or ma'am. :)

And like I said, I can think of lots of valid reasons that would explain why a person may not stand during an anthem or pledge, and they have nothing to do with a lack of respect.

[Jenny in Atl]

Phred said....

Now... my two cents on this practice of not standing for the pledge? Dump the pledge altogether and sing "You're a Grand Ol' Flag" at the start of each day. ~You're the emblem of, the land I love. The home of the free and the brave.~ Nothing to object to, and if the Jehovah's Witnesses want to opt out they can hum along.

 

Jenny said....

I love it! Kids like singing better anyway. How about a little Yankee Doodle too?

[Phred]

I would also suspend them if they were on a school trip to, say, Japan or Mexico or Iraq and refused to stand for their pledge (assuming they have one, but you get my point). Standing shows respect. Pledging shows allegiance. I don't get being unwilling to stand out of respect for another country's anthem, let alone your own.

But the pledge of allegiance isn't our anthem. It's a made-up doohickey from the days of anti-communist fear. Standing for the national anthem is something else all together. I simply don't have to stand when someone else pledges their allegiance and I don't have to pledge my allegiance every single day.

 

I don't care who says the pledge or sings. I don't care if people salute the flag and just stand at attention for the anthem. I don't think they are intentionally showing disrespect, and reasonable people differ on the proper etiquette. But once your host/teacher/parent explains that this is about respect and not allegiance, I say stand and make every kid stand.

Then we differ here. I see no reason to make the kids stand up every day and pledge their allegiance to the flag and the country by rote. They really don't know what they're doing until at least fourth grade and even then there's no reason to do it every day. I also object to the school system deciding for me that God is involved in this. But that's another subject...

[Slartibartfast]

Freedom is a privelage, not a right.

 

 

 

Um...no it's a Right in the US.

[Plaid Dad]

I haven't read all the replies, but I stopped saying the pledge in (I think) elementary school on the grounds that we do not in fact have "freedom and justice for all." I even declined to join the National Honor Society in high school because they would not induct a student who would not audibly say the pledge at the ceremony. Given the history of the pledge, I didn't want to be part of an organization that was so attached to it. I got an interesting college application essay out of the whole debacle.

 

During school we were required to stand, but we could remain silent. This was thirty years ago; I'm having a hard time believing this is still an issue.

[Miss Peregrine]

I don't recite the pledge of allegiance and I don't think my kids even know it.

 

I don't believe the words and I don't feel "allegiance" to my country. It shouldn't be something we are "made" to do.

[Kathy in MD]

. I believe forcing kids to say it has made it a common, ordinary thing that has no meaning at all. I think it should be reserved for special occasions only.

 

My ds had a teacher who felt the same way. Every day the flag was hanging outside the door, but the pledge was done onlyon special days. And on occasion theywent over what the words meant.

[Fourmother]

I agree that schools try to assert psychological control over the students, and I don't think that's a "good" thing, especially as far as personal rights/choices are concerned. I don't think there is any reason to take any sort of disciplinary action against the students.

 

This is so true. The year I worked as a substitute teacher in a local public school district I learned to use the pledge as a means of control over my students. I'm not proud of this, but it's true. We all know how kids tend to reserve their worst behavior for the subs. I could predict how my day would go by the way the kids said the pledge first thing in the morning. If they giggled and goofed off during the pledge I would make them do it again, and perhaps again (though I did give the option to quietly abstain.) Now I'm not ordinarily a stickler about such things, but I needed to show that I was in charge right from the start. If I let it slide the kids would sense weakness, and make the day a living hell. Unfortunately, substitute teaching isn't about educating, it's just about crowd control. In order to survive I had to establish psychological control like J. Griff says. This is reason #37 why my kids don't go to school.

[Night Elf]

I agree with suspending them. They would not even have that school if people had not died for them to have the freedom and rights to those schools. If they do not like America enough to stand up and show respect on occassion, then they should leave the public schools and stop using up American tax dollars. Saying the pledge is like just saying thanks once in a while. And you know what? I am betting..just betting..these same kids will have no trouble pledging to a fraternity or sorority in the future or other such things..Girl Scouts...Boy Scouts..lots of things have pledges. I think if someone is not proud to be an American, then they should just exit the country.

 

I was born and raised in the USA and I have never asked nor voted for anyone to go out and die for me. In fact, I'm a bit opposed to the way the USA represents itself to the rest of the world. I am not always proud to be an American because there are some horrid ideas and events in our past, and frankly even today in our present.

 

I am not using tax dollars to send my child to school. I pay tax dollars and have earned the right to use the community resources. I contribute to the whole and am a part of that whole. So is every American citizen.

 

I have no desire to leave this country which is my home. I think our government is corrupt but I think that any governing body is corrupt up to a point. Power is powerful, afterall. There is no perfect country. Is there anyone who completely believes that the USA is a perfect country?

 

And, I have the right to my opinion and to talk about it and even try to affect change. That is what our founding fathers did in beginning this country in the first place.

[Mrs Mungo]

EDIT: Is this the video you saw on TV yourself? It's not the pledge, it's the original source, and Obama is singing the anthem! Link to video.

 

That's the first time I've seen the video! If you'll notice the candidates on the right side of the stage are facing the flag behind them. This indicates that there is no other flag. Therefore, Clinton and Richardson are also in the wrong for not facing the flag.

[Robin Hood]

Please, when most of them are saying, "I pledge a legion to the flag and the public for Richard Stands. One naked individual, under God, invisible, with liver tea and justice for all." Now... how in the world is a first grader to understand what the heck that means?

 

 

Although a first grader doesn't get the depth of the meaning, teaching them to memorize The Pledge is as good as teaching them to memorize all the other things we teach them. Memorizing The Pledge at 6 doesn't make them into patriotic robots. It just memorizing a good thing. Being nuetral doesn't teach them anything. It doesn't even keep them nuetral. Many who did memorize it still question it. If it's never taught, there is a better chance it won't be respected. If it's not important to a parent, it probably won't be important to the child. But I do think in teaching it, we should include respect and tolerance.

[Lovedtodeath]

I'm somewhat torn on this issue.

 

On the one hand, I think the polite thing to do, if one doesn't want to pledge allegiance, is to stand quietly during the pledge.

 

On the other hand, sitting quietly does not seem an offense worthy of punishment, and I think it is just silly to have a law that mandates standing during the pledge.

 

(And can I also say that I find it very, very sad that people have cause to worry about negative rep when they post a politely worded response.)

:iagree:

[chiguirre]

That's the first time I've seen the video! If you'll notice the candidates on the right side of the stage are facing the flag behind them. This indicates that there is no other flag. Therefore, Clinton and Richardson are also in the wrong for not facing the flag.

 

 

Of course, they all would have looked pretty strange turning their backs on the audience and the singer to face the backdrop ;). And I do have to give them all credit for not flinching when the singer hit some of the those high notes :bigear:!

[at the beach]

And I've seen him say the pledge MANY times in Congress on CSPAN. There are videos on Snopes of him with his hand over his heart and saying the pledge and National Anthem in other venues.

 

eta: the videos are at the bottom of this page http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/anthem.asp do not spread unjust and unfounded rumours just because you don't like a candidate.

 

That said, it is not legal for a school to require students to say the pledge.

 

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=319&invol=624

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette

 

From the concurring opinion:

 

 

Since that decision it has been the norm not to punish students as long as they are respectful and not disruptive.

 

Aren't we in favor of freedom?

 

:iagree:

[Mrs Mungo]

Of course, they all would have looked pretty strange turning their backs on the audience and the singer to face the backdrop ;). And I do have to give them all credit for not flinching when the singer hit some of the those high notes :bigear:!

 

Oh, I agree. To clarify, I'm not trying to nitpick or chatise anyone. I'm just saying people get it wrong all the time-presidents, people running for president, half the people in this thread, General's wives (yes, I've seen it) and for that reason I think it's *ridiculous* for people to take a photo completely out of context and label a presidential candidate un-American because of that photo. That's all I'm saying. :)

[at the beach]

Aw, Summer...now that is a bit harsh. :confused: While I feel blessed to have been born here, there are many things happening in my country of which I am NOT proud (over-arching theft of freedoms, for one). While that doesn't mean I'd choose China, Belarus, or any other country over the USA, it does mean that I'm unlikely to jump up and sing Lee Greenwood anytime soon. ;):D

 

Well said.

 

Anita

[Lovedtodeath]

Please, when most of them are saying, "I pledge a legion to the flag and the public for Richard Stands. One naked individual, under God, invisible, with liver tea and justice for all." Now... how in the world is a first grader to understand what the heck that means?

 

:smilielol5:

[at the beach]

I respectfully, and strongly disagree. If you really believe this, I am very sorry for you.

 

In indirect answer to the tone of your posts I would like to say that FREEDOM, American-Style, is not the unmititgated license to do whatever you please. American Freedom is the idea of having the freedom to do that which is right, without government interference. American Freedom is rule of the majority, with respect and cosideration of the minority. American Freedom is not the majority giving up their beliefs and practices for the minority.

 

And now I've probably said too much, because I know I believe the above, but I couldn't explain it any further if asked.

 

You're right, we cannot do whatever we please as Americans. I do strongly disagree that American Freedom is the rule of the majority, with respect and consideration of the minority.

 

How would that change the lives of homeschoolers? Imagine if the majority could determine (according to what *they* feel is respect and consideration) the hoops we should go through to prove we are doing what we should with our children. Very scary IMO.

 

Anita

[Elaine]

Your right, I'll change that headline.

 

I would love it if people would include links in their posts (not directed at you, Elaine... I mean people in general). I either back up with a legitimate link, or I don't post. I don't want to spread rumors.

 

I tried to give you positive rep for this but I am all out. Thank-you for being so gracious and honest. I appreciate the links.

[Kay in Cal]

But the pledge of allegiance isn't our anthem. It's a made-up doohickey from the days of anti-communist fear.

 

Well, yes and no. It is a made-up doohickey (aren't all rituals at some point made up?), but it was made up by the Christian Socialist movement in the late 1800s. They were certainly not anti-communist (in the sense of Marxist, since there were no communist governments at the time).

 

Originally it was also said with the arm outstretched, but that changed after that posture became identified with facism and Nazism. Of course, the "under God" bit was added in the 1950s, largely due to the Knights of Columbus, a Roman Catholic fraternal organization.

 

The history of the pledge is nothing if not amusingly ironic.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance

[CindyH in NC]

I pledge the flag, I teach my children to do so. However, not everyone feels the same way and I have a vested interest in making sure *their* rights are protected because I want *my* rights protected when *I* go against the majority (like my decision to homeschool).

 

:iagree: completely.