Major tantrum at B&N tonight--how do you handle this?

[melissel]

I'm not going into too much detail, because I don't want to relive it at the moment, although I'll say that I'm really tired of wearing an ice pack on my arm :( Suffice it to say that it was bad--the worst we've experienced, and I know food dyes were involved, because this is what happens. I can't pinpoint anything with red 40, but there were some yellows consumed yesterday...

 

Anyway, in general, how do you handle this? DD5, who is not a small child (she's currently wearing 7s and some 8s), sat down and refused to budge from the store. I had her by the arm, hauling her out, but she weighs quite a bit, and with all the kicking and thrashing, I had a fair time getting her to the car. She managed to wrench away from me more than once, but thankfully knew better than to run farther than the mulched island, and by then, we were on plenty of people's radar, so eyes were open for a runner.

 

What does one do when a child bigger than a toddler throws this kind of tantrum? I can hardly pick her up and carry her when she's cuddly anymore, let alone when she's fighting me with all she's got. Should I have walked away without her and hoped she followed? I mean, I don't plan for her to be going anywhere with me soon, but still, I sometimes have to get to the grocery store, etc.

 

TIA, again *sigh*

[EmilyinND]

:grouphug:

[kchara]

My 8 yo has been known to throw tantrums like this (especially after a particularly bad diet, and if he's unmedicated). I don't deal with it in public. I wait till we get home and, either we're both much more calm and I can deal more appropriately, or DH is there, and I let him deal, because, well, it's just better that way... I don't have any particular punishments for this, because, honestly, it depends on what we have going on in our lives at the moment. More than likely, mine will lose something VERY precious to him, whether its an upcoming outing or a long standing privilege.

[melissel]

:grouphug:

 

Ah, thanks :crying: It's been an extremely tough day for all of us, though DD8 is very happy with her purchases at least :rolleyes:

[melissel]

My 8 yo has been known to throw tantrums like this (especially after a particularly bad diet, and if he's unmedicated). I don't deal with it in public. I wait till we get home and, either we're both much more calm and I can deal more appropriately, or DH is there, and I let him deal, because, well, it's just better that way... I don't have any particular punishments for this, because, honestly, it depends on what we have going on in our lives at the moment. More than likely, mine will lose something VERY precious to him, whether its an upcoming outing or a long standing privilege.

 

Oh, it was handled at home, believe me. I'm not particularly proud of myself, but the point was made. I actually mean more like at the store. She's big enough (and was raging enough) to hurt me now, intentionally or not.

[LibraryLover]

Little people lose it. They get tired, they melt down. These things happen. It's not fun, but it's also not the end of the world. Get a good nights sleep and put it behind you.

[melissel]

Little people lose it. They get tired, they melt down. These things happen. It's not fun, but it's also not the end of the world. Get a good nights sleep and put it behind you.

 

Thanks, I'm actually looking for more practical advice, like how to get her to the car without killing her or myself along the way, or having her run out into traffic. I'm well-versed in putting stuff behind me with this child--maybe too much, in fact :glare:

[In the Rain]

:grouphug: I don't know what I'd do, but my heart goes out to you. :grouphug:

[Whereneverever]

How does she react when you pick her up when she's tantrumming? Can you bear hug her from behind and carry her to the car?

 

:grouphug:

 

I have been there. I'm so sorry that you had this happen today.

[MindyD]

I don't know how to get out of the situation any better than what you did today, but when we've had those situations in the past, we did not go to those places again for a loooooooooong time. When we go to a place that I know the kids are not going to want to leave (like B&N!) I remind them that when I say it's time to go, I expect them to stop what they're doing and leave with me. I notice a difference when I've forgotten to specifically tell them this. They're more likely to give me a hard time about leaving. After a few periods of not going to the park or a store for months (literally), they got the point. I think we didn't go to a Chick-fil-A for maybe 4 or 5 months because of a tantrum when it was time to leave. Now when I say it's time to go, they line up in a hurry!

And if you really think food dyes have that much of an effect, it will have to be a major priority to avoid it.

[Aubrey]

I haven't dealt w/ this, so I want to tread really, really lightly. If I'm way off, ignore me or say so, & I'll leave you alone.

 

When I'm dealing w/ a kid at home, my main concern is w/ outcome, behavior, training, whatever. In public, it's different. If they're screaming & I can't get them quiet in about a minute, I'd take them to the car. I won't spank in public (I prefer little to no spanking at home, but for ex, I *won't* put other people through the torture of it.)

 

So in your situation, I might have tried sitting down in the floor next to the child & talking to her quietly, or even being silent w/ her for a couple of minutes. My goal would be to gently whisper her out of the store. I guess that means my goal in public is to not be embarrassed, lol, but I want to get them to a level of discretion as quickly as possible, whether they're crying or yelling, "I HAVE TO GO POO POO!!!!" :svengo:

 

Do you know WHY she refused to leave the store? I'm trying to think what it might be for an ex, but coming up short.

 

:grouphug: No matter the situation, this stuff really stinks.

[Dolphin]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

Consistency. It takes a long time, it's hard, but it works. Every thing you threaten, you have to do. Even though it is hard (and sometimes means I am running to the grocery store at 10 at night after dh is home) If one of my kids acts like that, we don't go anywhere the next day. The rule is, if you leave somewhere badly, I don't take you anywhere the rest of that day or the next.

 

It is surprising how quickly they get it. My dd was throwing a tantrum about something at gymnastics a few months ago. Class hadn't started yet. I finally said "if you don;t stop now, I am taking you home." She didn't believe that I would actually make her miss class. She carried on, so I walked up to her teacher with her in hand and said"I am sorry teacher ****, but frog has decided she would rather throw a temper tantrum than attend class today. If she is good we will see you next week." and walked out. Now I have that to remind her with, she starts throwing a tantrum, I give her whatever threat(Just as this is a board and we don't know each other, I don't mean I beat my kids. Things like you will lose your Jello after lunch, we will leave etc...) and remind her about gymnastics and that I will follow through.

 

Another thing I found, is that talk softly and keep repeating the same thing, they will eventually be quiet so that they can hear what you are saying. It calms everything down.

 

I will get down on there level, tell them what I expect, and if I am really frustrated, I just hold their arms so they can't go anywhere, close my eyes and count to 10. I never stop before 10, even if they suddenly go quiet and start apologizing at 3. This is a clear signal to them that they have gone too far.

 

Set up for success. If you know you are going out, talk about it before hand. Have a reward that they can get (when they are back home) if they behave themselves. Make sure that they know what the reward is. Also include your older child. My daughter was very upset when we got home once and she wasn't allowed to make brownies with me and her older brother as she had lost the reward when we were out.

 

Oh, and in case you haven't figured out. I have a pretty good older child, and a very strong willed, independent 4 year old. She is big too and wearing size 6.

 

Best of luck. Think outside the box. You can do this. You homeschool! You can do anything!:lol:

[Jean in Newcastle]

I was thinking bear hugging her from behind - sitting on the floor of the floor with your legs across hers. What this would do is to stabilize her at the time and hopefully settle her down. I think most adults would recognize this as a therapeutic move. It's what they teach you to do in a classroom with autistic and children with behavior disorders. Once she's calm, you would then walk out to the car. I sympathize because of course all eyes would be on you until things are calm, but it would avoid the danger of them being hit by a car or something like that. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: (With this advice I'm assuming that she's beyond the ability to reason with her because it is a physical reaction even more than an emotional one.)

[LibraryLover]

Thanks, I'm actually looking for more practical advice, like how to get her to the car without killing her or myself along the way, or having her run out into traffic. I'm well-versed in putting stuff behind me with this child--maybe too much, in fact :glare:

 

 

So this happens often? I have other thoughts if so.

[Diana B]

:grouphug:

 

Depends on the store / situation, but I've done a few things in this type of situation.

 

~ Man-handle child to the best of your ability back into the car. I often times will just throw the child over my shoulder like a 'sack of potatoes'. Draws a lot of attention, but it gives you the best strength. And you can use your arms to keep the kicking to a minimum. (And they often stop kicking when they realize they'll land face first if they struggle too much!) Trying pull on the hand/arm gives them a lot more leverage to fight.

 

~ If we can make it outside, I'll sometimes just walk away and get in the car. At times I've even been known to 'drive away'. I always go where I can see the child and won't do this in a dangerous situation. But scaring her a bit, not such a bad thing sometimes. :)

 

~ If we are still inside, and I have the time, I'll just ignore DC and go do my own thing. Go get a cup of coffee (and something for your other DD) and have a seat. Especially if you can do this while keeping an eye the child, but if she's throwing a fit, you can still hear her even if you don't see her!

 

I usually (sometimes its HARD) will give the child the silent treatment. They get ZERO attention from me. If I was in B&N, and I had the time, I'd spend all day if necessary (easy enough to do in a book store!) until the child calmed down enough that I could get out of there. But I'd do it w/o saying a word to her. Really, how long is the child going to scream and throw a fit if you can't even see her?

 

If she gets physically out of control and she'll hurt you or someone/thing else if you don't take care of it - sit down and pull her onto your lap. Have her put her back against your chest and then take her arms and hold them criss-cross across her body (like the ASL sign for love). Just hold her like that until she can physically calm down. With some children it helps to whisper in their ear as well (especially if they are screaming, they have to be quiet to hear what you are saying). I often times will whisper to take a breath, I love you, anything to get the focus to shift.

 

I hope that helps.

 

:grouphug:

[Plink]

My mantra is, "I can be more patient than you can be stubborn."

 

Child throws a fit - I stand nearby and wait for them to get bored enough to comply. If I argue or try to negotiate I only give them (okay, specifically my oldest) someone to fight with. It is embarrassing and time consuming, but it works.

 

This isn't to say that I let the child get what they want. In B&N if I anticipate that they want to stay and read I give a 5 min warning before leaving, then when time is up I take their book and expect them to leave. If they fight, they are told what their consequence will be only once.

 

Follow through is important to prevent repeating the scenario over and over. If I say that they can't go to a friend's party, I force myself to follow through, even if I don't want to.

 

If it was bad enough that the child was destroying store property, I don't know what I'd do.

 

You have my sympathy.:grouphug:

Edited May 24, 2011 by LibertyH

[Melissa in FL]

:( Suffice it to say that it was bad--the worst we've experienced, and I know food dyes were involved, because this is what happens. I can't pinpoint anything with red 40, but there were some yellows consumed yesterday...

*sigh*

 

I don't know your child, so I can only speak about mine. When my child has had artificial's (and she was at her worst, reaction wise, during 4-8 yrs old) she can NOT control her responses. The number one thing is make sure she's not exposed to artificial's any more. My dd gets hyper with color and weepy/emotional with flavors, so we have to watch both. With my dd I can tell the difference between a reaction and just mis-behaving. There is a clear difference in her. When she's mis-behaving (and she does) she has control over her actions/reactions and I can react like anyone else. When she's having a reaction to artificial's, she truly can not control how she reacts in situations like the book store, and once she gets going she CAN NOT stop herself. When we are in situations where I can't control what she eats, or I don't want to (like cake at the birthday party,and during that 4-8 age I did control that too) we don't leave the house the next day when she'll be reacting. She has better control and less triggers at home and it's a LOT easier for me to walk away or put her in her room.

 

When we have been caught out during a reaction then I get down to her level, lower my voice, and point out that she is reacting to (yesterday's cake) and I know she can't help it, but we need to leave now. Giving that honesty to her and not blaming her uncontrolled behavior on her seems to help my dd. It will usually calm her down as she thinks about what she's eaten and how she's acting. I will also point out that she's not acting like herself and ask her to control herself until we get home. Sometimes she needs my hand on her to focus, gentle pressure will keep her attention focused on me. I've talked very honestly with her about her behavior. She's told me how frustrated she is when she gets like that and she just can't control herself.

 

More than likely your dd is just as frustrated as you are and she's not understanding why she acts like that. Try talking to her when she's not reacting about how she feels. When you see her react, point it out to her. My dd is 10 now and she still reacts but she has better control. We have been able to loosen up on what she eats a lot.

 

Dad took the kids to a show this weekend and they came home and I knew within an hour she had something with artificial's in it. Dh told me that he didn't buy them anything to eat. After a while the kids fested up to eating some of dad's wildly colored candy in his car. Yeah, thought so. I just looked at her and said "you better control yourself" and she pretty much did. She wasn't her normal self and I could tell she was having internal fights trying to stay in control, but she won. It does get better.

HTH

Melissa

[WiseOwlKnits]

I would do just what you said. I'd walk out and leave her in the store. DD is 6 (almost 7) and 50" so I understand about being too big to manhandle. I refuse to have a physical confrontation with her because I'm always the one who loses. DD's triggers aren't food dye...she was just a really high-strung, high-needs kid for the first few years of her life. Thank God she seems to have outgrown this in the last year...I can't remember the last time I had to do this.

 

Anyway, the first time I told her quietly, "I'm leaving. Now. With or without you." I wasn't even sure she'd heard me because she was screaming so much. I turned heel and walked out of the store. DD stared at me and followed me to the doors, but stayed at the doors. I kept going. I got in the car, keeping an eye on her. I went as far as putting the car in R and backing out of the space before she realized I was serious about leaving, with or without her. (In reality I was just going to drive around the parking lot.) She came flying out the doors screaming, "Wait!!!" After that first time, I just had to tell her "I'm leaving." and walk away. She still screamed and such on her way out of the store, but it was a much faster scene with less struggling.

 

Now her temper tantrums consist of me saying "I'm leaving." followed by crossed arms, a grumpy look, and a stomping of feet as she quietly complies. We're still working on the joyful part of obedience. Sigh. I can say that she doesn't have NEARLY as many tantrums as she used to.

[melissel]

Thanks for all your thoughts. I'll try to hit all the major points here! About the food, we're still trying to determine just exactly what things are triggering her. Sometimes something I think is a trigger doesn't cause any reaction, and then sometimes I can't pinpoint at all what caused the reaction :banghead: I have some suspicions (preservatives in a bread we've been eating), but I just told DH that we're going to have to go back to all natural/organic, and if that doesn't work, then gluten will have to go, and then dairy. If that doesn't work...then I don't know. I do have to be more vigilant, but it seemed like red 40 was the one. Maybe it is and she's just a difficult kid. Maybe not. I don't know yet, but I'm working on the parts I can control easily for the moment!

 

Hmm, bear hug. I don't think I've tried that one, I'll definitely remember it for next time. Until today, the vise grip on the wrist or arm has been enough. Today, not so much. When I try to pick her up, she goes completely limp, and she's heavy so she slides through my arms. If I can lift her, she kicks hard, and if I can't control her, she punches (and bites now, apparently--that's new).

 

The power struggle began at home, but I thought I'd settled the issue, and we moved on. It should have been my first sign, but the day was going so well otherwise. She was fine at the store, but at the last minute she decided she wanted a stuffed cat instead of the sticker book we'd agreed on. She told me she was getting it, and I told her I wasn't paying for it, so she'd be stealing, and that if she continued this, she wasn't going to get anything. She sat down behind a shelf and wouldn't move, so I went and paid for everything else, then came back for her. She wasn't screaming or out of control, she was steely calm. My quiet talking to her wasn't doing anything, and I could see where we were headed, so I was hoping to get her out of the store before it escalated. Talking to her/holding her doesn't calm her, it makes her fight me harder. She didn't want to stay, she wanted the cat, so staying until she gave in...I'm not sure that would have worked. They have loads of stuff there for her to do, so we'd have had to stay until they closed the place and/or called the cops :glare:

 

I sooo thought about just leaving, but by that point, people were watching, and this is New Jersey. The police would have been there in minutes.

 

I know she's not able to control herself after a certain point, and I could actually see her amping up in the toy section, so I'm so conflicted about how to discipline her. But I also know that regardless of her sensitivities, she still can't act the way she did. And I know that I will not be held hostage to it in the store, ever. I don't want to make it an excuse, even thought I know it's a reality for her.

 

I think I'm just going to need to stay out of the stores with her, as a consequence and a practicality, and just avoid the whole thing. It's not safe otherwise, if I can't hang onto her. I actually tripped in the parking lot and went down flat, and when I did, she sprinted.

 

ARGH! :banghead:

 

I appreciate all the ideas. Some of them, I haven't thought of (the bear hug carryout, sitting quietly with her for awhile without trying to force her). I'm hoping that we won't have to face this again, but we do have to leave the house eventually, so you never know, I guess! In the meantime, it looks like Whole Foods is going to start getting more of our money again, and no fast food under any circumstances whatsoever.

Edited May 24, 2011 by melissel

[Impish]

I wouldn't have bought her anything. You told her if she continued, she wouldn't get anything, but didn't follow through, since she didn't behave. As soon as she sat down and refused to budge, I would have put everything down, slung her over my shoulder like a sack of potatoes, and left.

 

btdt.

[melissel]

When we have been caught out during a reaction then I get down to her level, lower my voice, and point out that she is reacting to (yesterday's cake) and I know she can't help it, but we need to leave now. Giving that honesty to her and not blaming her uncontrolled behavior on her seems to help my dd. It will usually calm her down as she thinks about what she's eaten and how she's acting. I will also point out that she's not acting like herself and ask her to control herself until we get home.

 

Thanks Melissa. I have tried this with her, and I can see her thinking about it. In cases where her anger is really going though, she just doesn't care and can't/won't get herself under control. And then, after I said that a few times, she started trying to get out of every situation with, "But I had red 40 yesterday!!!!"

 

I guess I've learned my lesson--when we needed lunch out yesterday, the yellow mac and cheese seemed like a better choice than the pink hot dog :001_huh: Now I'll need to watch for that, and the bread is gone. I'll bake some tomorrow instead. Prevention, prevention, prevention!!!

 

Thank you for sharing your experience with the food sensitivities.

[Food4Thought]

I was thinking bear hugging her from behind - sitting on the floor of the floor with your legs across hers. What this would do is to stabilize her at the time and hopefully settle her down. I think most adults would recognize this as a therapeutic move. It's what they teach you to do in a classroom with autistic and children with behavior disorders. Once she's calm, you would then walk out to the car. I sympathize because of course all eyes would be on you until things are calm, but it would avoid the danger of them being hit by a car or something like that. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: (With this advice I'm assuming that she's beyond the ability to reason with her because it is a physical reaction even more than an emotional one.)

 

:iagree: This is what I've had to do with my son to get him out of situations. We call it the "baby straightjacket" - and it's almost as much to keep US out of danger as to keep him from hurting himself. We wrap his arms around himself and hold him tight, even if he struggles.

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: I have to offer lots more hugs too, because I've been there, and it's food related here too. It's scary when the kids start getting bigger. I've been kicked in the face during one of his tantrums - which is probably why I'm an advocate for being behind the kid to settle him. :tongue_smilie: When the response has gone physical, I don't think there's much you can do besides carefully controlling their bodies to get them someplace safe.

[melissel]

I wouldn't have bought her anything. You told her if she continued, she wouldn't get anything, but didn't follow through, since she didn't behave. As soon as she sat down and refused to budge, I would have put everything down, slung her over my shoulder like a sack of potatoes, and left.

 

btdt.

 

I didn't buy her anything, but I did have other things I needed to get, so I paid for those. She got neither sticker book nor cat.

 

I don't know if the sack of potatoes thing would work. I'll be honest, I'm a little afraid to have both the fists and the teeth behind me where I can't see them :( It would be more efficient though, for sure.

[melissel]

:iagree: This is what I've had to do with my son to get him out of situations. We call it the "baby straightjacket" - and it's almost as much to keep US out of danger as to keep him from hurting himself. We wrap his arms around himself and hold him tight, even if he struggles.

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: I have to offer lots more hugs too, because I've been there, and it's food related here too. It's scary when the kids start getting bigger. I've been kicked in the face during one of his tantrums - which is probably why I'm an advocate for being behind the kid to settle him. :tongue_smilie: When the response has gone physical, I don't think there's much you can do besides carefully controlling their bodies to get them someplace safe.

 

I have a huge, swollen black and blue circle on my right forearm :( That's never happened before. This was the worst I've ever seen it.

[Whereneverever]

I didn't buy her anything, but I did have other things I needed to get, so I paid for those. She got neither sticker book nor cat.

 

I don't know if the sack of potatoes thing would work. I'll be honest, I'm a little afraid to have both the fists and the teeth behind me where I can't see them :( It would be more efficient though, for sure.

 

If she's a biter or pincher, I would not suggest it.

[Impish]

I didn't buy her anything, but I did have other things I needed to get, so I paid for those. She got neither sticker book nor cat.

 

I don't know if the sack of potatoes thing would work. I'll be honest, I'm a little afraid to have both the fists and the teeth behind me where I can't see them :( It would be more efficient though, for sure.

Sorry, I thought you said earlier she was happy with her purchases.

 

*gently* It sounds as if she's the one with the power in this relationship. And that she's a very smart cookie. Have you read 'The Explosive Child'? It may help give you some ideas.

[melissel]

If she's a biter or pincher, I would not suggest it.

 

Yeah, I'm thinking the cross-armed bear hug carry would have to be it. I'll practice with DH :D

 

OK, I'm going to go cry myself to sleep now. Poor DD8, I'm just glad we managed to get her books before we left. I know it bothers her very much when her sister goes over the edge, and tonight she didn't even try to comfort her like she normally does. I think she just wanted to stay away from her. That stinks.

 

DD5 didn't fall asleep until 11:45. She's acting like nothing at all happened, but I can see she's sort of tiptoeing around. DH was home by then and was extremely ticked off, but I told him I'd handled it already. He's really upset.

[kitten18]

I don't really have advice, just :grouphug:.

 

My DD is 7, and the last time I remember her having a public tantrum was about 2 years ago when she was 5.75. It has gotten a lot better in the last couple years. She still melts down sometimes at home, close to bedtime, but at least that is private and can mostly be ignored.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Was it a tantrum or a meltdown? Here is a good link: http://www.autism-causes.com/the-meltdown.html

[melissel]

Sorry, I thought you said earlier she was happy with her purchases.

 

*gently* It sounds as if she's the one with the power in this relationship. And that she's a very smart cookie. Have you read 'The Explosive Child'? It may help give you some ideas.

 

 

Oh no, sorry, that was my big kid. The trip was specifically to get her something she wanted, that she'd been waiting to shop for.

 

I still manage to overpower her, and I make sure I win the battles, but that doesn't seem to stop DD5 from picking them anyway :confused: She doesn't seem to learn, and doesn't seem to have a currency that matters long-term. I attribute some of that to the food sensitivity. How much? I don't know. I guess we'll find out.

 

KH_ recommended that book to me a little while ago too. I had started it, but then didn't think it applied really. She's generally not explosive like they seem to describe in the book--she's more like a brick wall. KH_ assured me that it would help anyway, so I'm waiting for it from the library. I have a few others on hand as well. Thanks for the follow-up recommendation!

[Homemama2]

I think I'm just going to need to stay out of the stores with her, as a consequence and a practicality, and just avoid the whole thing

 

:iagree: My youngest would have tantrums (still does at home :glare:) but he learned quickly to not do it at stores. I WOULD NOT take him anywhere if he acted like this. We wouldn't go story hour, B&N, or any of the things he wanted to do and every time he asked to go, I'd smile and say that I couldn't take him until I could trust his behavior. I WOULD still plan to take any siblings fun places like that, or let Dad...but he would stay home with one of us. If he had a fit at the grocery store, I would not purchase my things but go home and he would explain to Dad why there were no groceries. This seemed to work for him, not sure if it would work for your child....and no clue about how to get them out to the car :001_huh:. But lots of :grouphug:!!!!!

Edited May 24, 2011 by Homemama2

[melissel]

Was it a tantrum or a meltdown? Here is a good link: http://www.autism-causes.com/the-meltdown.html

 

OK, that's very interesting, I never knew there was a difference! I always thought a tantrum WAS a meltdown, but this was a definite meltdown, and yes, she was in total sensory overload. I could see it when she started almost manically ranging the toy aisles, trying to find the "very best thing" when we'd already agreed on something. It was like a switch flipped, and that's when I said, OK, time to go pay, we have to go home and make dinner!!! Too late, apparently. What a great link, thank you.

[LittleIzumi]

I am just starting Taming the Spirited Child. Might check that out. Looks promising.

:grouphug: Dd is like that but I can still haul her out bodily at this point....

[sewingmama]

Man-handle child to the best of your ability back into the car. I often times will just throw the child over my shoulder like a 'sack of potatoes'.

 

How do you accomplish this if shopping alone and you also have younger siblings along? One of the biggest problems I have with dealing with my 5YO's public tantrums is that I can't "make her go anywhere" because I'm also trying to control a 3yo and a 2yo in a stroller - I cannot carry the 5yo because my hands are already full and I physically cannot force her into the stroller - she is stronger then I in her rages.

 

My DD is a frequent tantrum thrower - started when she was 6 months old and has never stopped. She has issues that contribute beyond just naughty behaviour. Despite having plenty of "practice" I STILL don't know how to manage her tantrums/meltdowns in public. I do what I can to avoid the triggers and when that fails - I BRIBE. :blushing: (Yes I know - worst mum in the world blah blah). I promise her if she stops the tantrum I'll do Art/Craft with her when we get home. Then when we get home we deal with the issue behind the tantrum and she sometimes gets sent to her room for it - but then we do the Craft session. I only do this because her tantrums very rarely result from "I want this and didn't get it" but from "I can't deal with the noise/bright lights so I'll meltdown" (she has SPD).

 

Again because of the SPD "bear hug" type things make her go beserk and scream louder - she hates to feel restricted. So I go for whatever works to get her out of there.

 

ETA : I just read that link - and what they say is very true. My DD has been taken to the hospital 2x for serious concussion that she has given herself from hitting her head while having a tantrum. Once she gets in the mode there is no stopping the rage - hence the "bribe" or the diffusion or re-direction of focus. It's the only thing that brings her around.

Edited May 24, 2011 by sewingmama

[Impish]

How do you accomplish this if shopping alone and you also have younger siblings along? One of the biggest problems I have with dealing with my 5YO's public tantrums is that I can't "make her go anywhere" because I'm also trying to control a 3yo and a 2yo in a stroller - I cannot carry the

5yo because my hands are already full and I physically cannot force her into the stroller - she is stronger then I in her rages.

 

My DD is a frequent tantrum thrower - started when she was 6 months old and has never stopped. She has issues that contribute beyond just naughty behaviour. Despite having plenty of "practice" I STILL don't know how to manage her tantrums/meltdowns in public. I do what I can to avoid the triggers and when that fails - I BRIBE. :blushing: (Yes I know - worst mum in the world blah blah). I promise her if she stops the tantrum I'll do Art/Craft with her when we get home. Then when we get home we deal with the issue behind the tantrum and she sometimes gets sent to her room for it - but then we do the Craft session. I only do this because her tantrums very rarely result from "I want this and didn't get it" but from "I can't deal with the noise/bright lights so I'll meltdown" (she has SPD).

 

Again because of the SPD "bear hug" type things make her go beserk and scream louder - she hates to feel restricted. So I go for whatever works to get her out of there.

Genuine question, no snark.

 

If she can respond to the bribe, doesn't that indicate that she has some control? I don't have a kid with SPD, so I truly don't know.

[melissel]

How do you accomplish this if shopping alone and you also have younger siblings along?

 

:grouphug: I have no idea. I was so thankful that my extremely mature DD8 was there to carry the bag, watch for cars, open the car door, etc. Not exactly what I want to put on an 8-year-old, but still helpful.

 

When DD5 was littler and my older was younger and couldn't be relied on, we just stayed home. Last year was the first year I could actually take DD5 to the library with us.

[melissel]

Genuine question, no snark.

 

If she can respond to the bribe, doesn't that indicate that she has some control? I don't have a kid with SPD, so I truly don't know.

 

Probably, but I imagine some pleasurable stimulation (promise of something good) makes an impact on the fog of anger/negative stimulation. If I'd told DD5 that she could have the cat, she'd have gotten to the front of the store on her own steam too, but she'd still have been plenty unhappy and unpleasant to deal with, and irrationally angry with me no matter what. I just wasn't going to budge on that.

 

I had a similar sensory overload meltdown at the end of our recent trip to Great Wolf Lodge. Honestly, I wanted to claw my way out of there, screaming the whole way. I was nearly in tears, and told DH I'd go get the car. The freezing cold air, the promise of going home, and two minutes alone in the car were enough to calm me down to a functional level. I imagine the promise of arts and crafts might be enough to cut through what goes on in a child's head.

[sewingmama]

If she can respond to the bribe, doesn't that indicate that she has some control? I don't have a kid with SPD, so I truly don't know.

 

Ok I probably used the wrong term really when I said bribe - it's more of a "refocus of attention or distraction" on something she LOVES to do. I can really only use it when she is at the beginning stages of the meltdown - once it escalates she doesn't respond to anything until she winds herself down (and that can be anywhere between 10 minutes to 2 HOURS). My DD HAS to be distracted from the tantrum because once she is in full meltdown there is no stopping the rage. I cannot simply stand next to her in the store for up to an hour with a 3 & 2YO whilst she rolls around on the floor, kicks over displays, pulls down racks of clothes etc etc.

 

If the tantrum IS about wanting something - I do not get it for her. I never say if you stop the tantrum I will buy you such and such. Promising Art sessions "mostly" works because it's her passion - it takes her mind off whatever is negatively affecting her and causing her to start up a meltdown (which can range from my shirt is too itchy to I just noticed that there is a spot of marker on my favourite dress) and acts as a reward IF she can control her behaviour. If she still keeps tantruming she does not get the Art session when we get home because she did not control her behaviour.

 

So yes she does have some control - more and more as she has gotten older - but for her it is a learned thing - not something she can turn on and off at will.

 

My other 2 children have had the odd tantrum or 2 in public - easily dealt with using normal discipline methods.

 

My DD doesn't tantrum - she rages - and the cause is usually a whole different issue then not simply getting what she wants.

Edited May 24, 2011 by sewingmama

[Food4Thought]

Genuine question, no snark.

 

If she can respond to the bribe, doesn't that indicate that she has some control? I don't have a kid with SPD, so I truly don't know.

 

I think, from experience with an SPD/aspie, that it's not technically a bribe. It's refocusing their attention on a positive outcome until you can get the heck out of there. Because if they are in sensory overload, they are in their own personal version of hell at that moment.

 

And until I had one of my own, I used to think other parents should have been able to have more "control" over their kids too. We manage a lot of the behavior through food modifications, but if you have a kid who goes into sensory overload, it is one of the most helpless feelings in the world. It's not about winning the battle, it's just about surviving the next 5 minutes.

 

To the OP, I hope you all get some good rest. :grouphug: Make sure your DD drinks plenty of water the next few days - we found that staying hydrated helps get the bad stuff out of DS's system faster.

 

PS. Have you looked into gluten? I hated the idea, but both DS and I have had changed lives since giving it up.

[kalanamak]

 

I appreciate all the ideas. Some of them, I haven't thought of (the bear hug carryout, sitting quietly with her for awhile without trying to force her). I'm hoping that we won't have to face this again, but we do have to leave the house eventually, so you never know, I guess! In the meantime, it looks like Whole Foods is going to start getting more of our money again, and no fast food under any circumstances whatsoever.

 

:grouphug: If this had happened to me, it would have been some time before I went anywhere without muscly papa to hoist him up above his head and carry him out like a log.

[sewingmama]

I think, from experience with an SPD/aspie, that it's not technically a bribe. It's refocusing their attention on a positive outcome until you can get the heck out of there.

 

Bingo :D

[asta]

From that link:

 

As a caregiver of a child on the autism spectrum, you need to help the child learn to recognize when the meltdown is imminent. In this way, you can both work to avoid a meltdown. Remember the scary part mentioned above, think about an adult going out of control in a similar manner. The child needs to learn to recognize and learn to defuse this type of unacceptable behavior before they reach adulthood and are able to do more damage.

 

I had what would qualify as a classic meltdown last week. I'm 43. I never had anyone teach me how to defuse things (though I've taught my child how to - go figure... lots of reading & talking with people who work with kids). "They" just didn't teach those things back in the '70s; even if you managed to be recognized as dealing with more than a "discipline issue".

 

Believe me: being an adult who "flips out" is no fun. The bear hug works. Dropping sensory overload works. Wal-Mart, B&N and ALL big box stores are sensory overload, BTW. There is simply too much "space" involved (high ceilings, large footprint).

 

The biggest bummer is, you never *do* know what will set things off: I was looking for a 1" emergency pill container to put in my purse so we could leave the house for a "fun" outing. The wreckage was spectacular... Sadly.

 

Hang in there.

 

 

a

[keptwoman]

DD is very prone to major tantrums. I'm going to go read the meltdown link someone posted, because they really are out of the realms of normal and there is a definite point of no return. She is incredibly oppositional and simply refuses to do much of what is asked of her.

 

I have a few things underway that seem to be helping, this is partly pulled from a similar experience with C, for which we sought help from a psychologist.

*We have a sticker chart, one for every tantrum free day, we used to have multiple a day and now we often go a couple of days without one.

*If she is asked to do something and refuses she gets 1/2 an hour time out. If she refuses to go to time out the time doubles (but only once) I often give her 5 mins to go to her room or it doubles and that seems to work well.

* If she has a tantrum she gets 4 hours in her room. Time does not stop until she is calm.

 

We use the hug as described by someone else as a straight jacket, arms holding her arms crossed across her body and legs wrapped around hers. It can take her a solid half hour to calm down and for the whole time she will be screaming that we are hurting her, she wants a cuddle (she doesn't, we've tried that) etc. There is a sudden point that she will just let go and calm, then we can cuddle for a while and then she goes to her room for the four hours.

 

I've found I've been able to difuse it a few times by offering for her to ring her father on my mobile. She gets her grievance heard (it's already been heard by me, but a second set of ears seems to help her)

 

OK, that's at home. I need to go get DS, but I'm going to come back and address how we are dealing with it happening when we are out.

 

When we are out, I try really hard to avoid the point of no return, but I never back down from something that has been said. I will offer the phone to ring her Dad. I will try to coax her out the store, and if I must, I will manhandle her from the store and take her to the car at which point I will do the aforementioned straightjacket hold until she calms. When we get home she gets her punishment of 4 hours.

 

I remember one occasion at the supermarket, I tried the coaxing and cajolling, I had a basket load of groceries. In the end, I gave my wallet and the basket to one of the staff, asked him to pay for the groceries with the cash in the wallet for me, and then give me the groceries to carry out with the child. The lovely man carried my groceries out for me and loaded them into my car while I dealt with her, I then had a full on 30 min restraining session in the car before being able to drive home. It really leaves you feeling like a wrung out washcloth doesn't it!!

 

If need be, I will do the hold on the floor whereever I happen to be. It's incredibly stressful and embarrassing so it really is a last resort!

 

Any of these options generally leave me with bruises, she is great at slugging me a head butt or managing to get a bite in.

 

She is definitely getting better, the strong punishment is definitely showing results. I can often now remind her of the consequence of going in to full meltdown while she is still not beyond the point of return and she will pull herself out of it if given the time and space.

 

One thing I tried before, and had some success with, and I'll mention it as it may work for others is that if DDs behaviour incurred a delay in our lives, she spent double the delayed time in her room when we got home.

 

I don't know what causes this in DD. I will try food issues if I must, but the strong boundaries worked for C and he no longer behaves like this at all, so I'm trying it for DD before resorting to more food restrictions than we already endure.

 

eta: Just read the links, DDs are definitely meltdowns!!

Edited May 24, 2011 by keptwoman

[Mom0012]

If you think this is the result of her consuming food dyes, then it seems the key here is to monitor her diet very closely and never let her have anything that sets her off. Restrict those foods as carefully as you would if she was severely allergic to them. I have a child who has tons of allergies and when he was little, he was so oppositional, there was really nothing I could do with him. I discovered that he had a problem with gluten and once that was removed everything changed dramatically and he became a happy, compliant little guy.

 

You might also listen to The Biology of Behavior http://stores.diannecraft.org/Categories.bok?category=Audio+CD%27s by Dianne Craft. She talks about diet, but also probiotics on this cd. Probiotics were the second piece of the puzzle with my son. I even notice my daughter, who has never had any behavior issues, is happier and has a warmer personality when she is taking probiotics. She spent a lot of time on antibiotics due to ear infections so I think that has affected her system.

 

I know how hard it is to avoid food that your child does not actually test allergic to. There are all kinds of pressures from family, society, doctors and, for me, even personal guilt, in not giving them that food. My son has a lot of other severe food allergies as well, so the thought of restricting his diet further was a nightmare to me. In the end, I realized it was something I had to do for his sake.

 

Lisa

Edited May 24, 2011 by LisaTheresa

[gingersmom]

I would take her for an OT evaluation.

 

My son had meltdowns like that when he was very little (thankfully I could pick him up and put him in the car).

 

Its sad, awful but unfortunately I think ultimately your daughter is dealing with issues that she herself can't control.

 

I think eliminating food dyes/food is just a tiny part of the solution.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

I've been through tantrums, so :grouphug:. My Asperger boy can throw some doozies! But, I've been taking Temple Grandin's advice on what her mother did with her- you just don't allow that behavior. There are consequences for it. I've learned that for my son, I need to spell out the behavior expectations clearly before we do anything. Then, if those expectations aren't met, there will be a loss of a privilege. If there is whining and pouting involved after the loss of privilege, there will be an extra punishment-such as having to wash down all the kitchen cupboards. If additives are a trigger for your daughter, you can understand and sympathize with her reactions, but you cannot continue to allow her to have a tantrum and hit and hurt you because of it. She has to learn that those aren't appropriate ways of handling her frustrations. Teach her some alternatives to express her anger. For example, with my son, I've given him a code word. If I am getting frustrated and angry with my children's behavior, I say, "Ham and cheese", and they know that I'm at my limit and that it's time to shape up or there will be consequences. My son will say to me, "Ice Cubes", and I know that he feels frustrated and angry and may break into a tantrum at any moment. Maybe you could teach your daughter to tap her hands on her hips or pat her shoulders when she's mad instead of reaching out to hit you.

 

I would definitely sit her down when she's in a calm state and tell her that hitting anyone, especially one's mom, is not at all acceptable in any situation. I would inform her that you are not going to tolerate it anymore and that if she does it again, she will lose privileges. You don't want a teenager who thinks it's okay to hit you when she's out of control. Just my 2 cents. Again, :grouphug: Hope today is a better day for you.

[kolamum]

Do you have a stroller? Don't laugh. I kept my current youngest in one until he was 5.5 or so. We had a LOT of MAJOR meltdowns which were food related, but we didn't know it at the time.

 

He never entered a store without being in a trolly/cart or a pram/stroller. No questions, no fights. You get in it or you do not enter the shop. END. OF. STORY.

 

I was extreme, but I wasn't going to haul him out kicking and screaming. I was going to smile, wave at everyone I passed, and push my funky little wheeled object right out the store while ignoring the idiocy of people who said, "Oh just hold the poor little dear."

 

You might find some resistance at first because your daughter isn't use to it, but if you make it a rule and get her inside of the cart/stroller while she's happy it might not be so bad.

 

For us, when they got too big for the seat I lifted the flap where the seat is held so they could climb into the cart themselves without me having to lift. If they attempted to climb out of the cart there would be no special treat for them at the end of the trip. All though honestly, I only had them want to get out if I got near a toy dept. Which I was pretty good at avoiding at all costs. ;)

 

As for the pram. I didn't always buckle them in once they hit preschool age, but I was pretty adapt at pushing QUICKLY to make a break for it when trouble started. Sometimes just going FAST was enough to break the stress and make them think Mamma was going on some wild offroad type trip. ;)

[Anita in NC]

So what were the consequences/punishment for her behavior in the store once you got home? I read through your responses and didn't see it mentioned, maybe I missed it.

 

Here are some ideas:

 

Try and head off a meltdown. I would always tell my kids I would think about what they wanted and maybe would would get it next time. Or offer a way for them to earn it between then and our next visit. Or let them spend their own money on a purchase - they rarely wanted it enough to actually spend their own money.

 

Make the consequences/punishment clear before you go into a store. Tell them that if they don't behave this ____________ is going to happen and stick with it. Find your child's currency, what they value, and use it.

 

For one of my kids I did a version of boot camp where they got EVERYTHING taken away. They were left with a pillow and a blanket and then they lost the pillow. This was when he was 6 and he still remembers this punishment to this day and is the best 14 year old kid.

 

I always tried this with my youngest but he thought boot camp was an adventure. For him what worked the best was taking away all electronic devices - no tv, no Wii, no computer, no DS for an entire week. At age 7 he is a really good kid now.

 

Also, if you suspect that food dyes and such are responsible go to a very basic diet and feed it to her. Maybe that means she gets rice and lentils for a week and then slowly add in different foods. This can sort of be a form of punishment too. Just tell her, "I think your bad behavior is linked to what you eat. So this is what we are going to do."

[CalicoKat]

I'm not going into too much detail, because I don't want to relive it at the moment, although I'll say that I'm really tired of wearing an ice pack on my arm :( Suffice it to say that it was bad--the worst we've experienced, and I know food dyes were involved, because this is what happens. I can't pinpoint anything with red 40, but there were some yellows consumed yesterday...

 

Anyway, in general, how do you handle this? DD5, who is not a small child (she's currently wearing 7s and some 8s), sat down and refused to budge from the store. I had her by the arm, hauling her out, but she weighs quite a bit, and with all the kicking and thrashing, I had a fair time getting her to the car. She managed to wrench away from me more than once, but thankfully knew better than to run farther than the mulched island, and by then, we were on plenty of people's radar, so eyes were open for a runner.

 

What does one do when a child bigger than a toddler throws this kind of tantrum? I can hardly pick her up and carry her when she's cuddly anymore, let alone when she's fighting me with all she's got. Should I have walked away without her and hoped she followed? I mean, I don't plan for her to be going anywhere with me soon, but still, I sometimes have to get to the grocery store, etc.

 

TIA, again *sigh*

I would have turned around, ignored her, and started to walk slowly away. No one's going to snatch a child who's that loud or ornery.

 

Usually there's crescendo before a gulp, silence, and the sound of trotting feet.

 

It may take turning the corner.

 

Wait for the feet and then turn around with a smile, "Hullo! Let's go get...."

 

You might want to set her up to let it happen when there are two adults, for your support.

 

:grouphug:

 

I have a 10 dd who's got ADHD and she likes to pull tantrums in the store too. I go deaf, ignore the tantrum, and keep going. After the store and before we set foot in another store again we go over the rule of shopping in the car.

 

1. Stay together.

2. Unless you have a shopping list approved by me before we enter the store you will not be purchasing anything. Do not ask. I will say no. .

3. Use an inside voice.

4. No horseplay.

5. Look with your eyes (not your hands).

 

I've been known to walk out without buying anything if the kids get rowdy.

[historically accurate]

:grouphug:

 

Depends on the store / situation, but I've done a few things in this type of situation.

 

~ Man-handle child to the best of your ability back into the car. I often times will just throw the child over my shoulder like a 'sack of potatoes'. Draws a lot of attention, but it gives you the best strength. And you can use your arms to keep the kicking to a minimum. (And they often stop kicking when they realize they'll land face first if they struggle too much!) Trying pull on the hand/arm gives them a lot more leverage to fight.

 

~ If we can make it outside, I'll sometimes just walk away and get in the car. At times I've even been known to 'drive away'. I always go where I can see the child and won't do this in a dangerous situation. But scaring her a bit, not such a bad thing sometimes. :)

 

~ If we are still inside, and I have the time, I'll just ignore DC and go do my own thing. Go get a cup of coffee (and something for your other DD) and have a seat. Especially if you can do this while keeping an eye the child, but if she's throwing a fit, you can still hear her even if you don't see her!

 

I usually (sometimes its HARD) will give the child the silent treatment. They get ZERO attention from me. If I was in B&N, and I had the time, I'd spend all day if necessary (easy enough to do in a book store!) until the child calmed down enough that I could get out of there. But I'd do it w/o saying a word to her. Really, how long is the child going to scream and throw a fit if you can't even see her?

 

If she gets physically out of control and she'll hurt you or someone/thing else if you don't take care of it - sit down and pull her onto your lap. Have her put her back against your chest and then take her arms and hold them criss-cross across her body (like the ASL sign for love). Just hold her like that until she can physically calm down. With some children it helps to whisper in their ear as well (especially if they are screaming, they have to be quiet to hear what you are saying). I often times will whisper to take a breath, I love you, anything to get the focus to shift.

 

I hope that helps.

 

:grouphug:

 

:iagree:

The bear hug from behind works the best to calm my middle dd down, but I've found that softly singing works better than whispering words. If I whisper "Breathe" or something of the sort, she starts arguing at the top of her lungs. When we're out and about, the "sack of spuds" over the shoulder works best for immediate removal -- she's getting too big for me to manhandle her out of the mall.

 

My dd has some issues that we have yet to pinpoint as well as a severe speech delay, so unfortunately tantrums are a part of life. It's tough, isn't it? :grouphug: