s/o punctuality

[AngieC]

You could also see this as a control issue for some. Are people getting offended because their time/ their desires/ THEIR plans are "off" because of someone else's "perceived" tardiness?

 

How is it a "perceived" tardiness if you are supposed to meet someone at 1:00pm and you show up at 1:30pm? That to me seems like it's just plain old tardiness and is rude to the person who stood around waiting for you for a half an hour. If this isn't what you are talking about, how can someone be perceived as being late when they really aren't? If you schedule a time and you don't show then, you're late in my book.

 

I would certainly never pay for any sort of lessons given by a teacher who was habitually late. Nor would I use any kind of professional service where the provider was always late if I had an option for another provider of similar quality who was usually on time.

Edited May 19, 2011 by AngieC

[regentrude]

I read a great article a while ago about chronic lateness -- there was a woman who was always, always late and the article chronicled a sort of 'makeover'/education process about it. Apparently the crux of the issue was that she consistently underestimated the time it would take to do each step of the process of leaving and getting to her destination.

 

But THAT is absolutely something that can be learned - and it starts in childhood.

When my kids were still attending public school, our morning routine was planned and they knew how much time they had for each task: breakfast at 7, upstairs to brush teeth and dress 7:15, downstairs to put on shoes and coat 7:25, step out of door 7:30, walk to school and arrive at 7:50. Every.single.day. So, they grew up knowing exactly how much time it should take to do what.

If I have an 8am class, I eat at 7 and read the paper, and I know that I need to step in the shower at 7:15 in order to emerge with washed and dried hair and dressed for work at 7:27, at which time I will holler at DD to come and get her shoes on.

I know it's 8.7 miles to the barn where DD rides; so I know it will take me between 10 and 12 minutes.

 

So, somehow I can't wrap my mind around not knowing "how long things take". Usually, a person does the same things over and over again.

 

The one thing I admit is unpredictable is traffic- it can only be combatted by a generous time cushion. When I lived in a city and had to rely on transit, I'd plan to take one bus before the latest possible one that would just get me to my destination on time.

[Word Nerd]

Curious as to what prompted the thread :bigear:

 

It's a spin-off of the co-op deal-breaker thread and a couple of the comments there. I have mixed feelings about the issue, though I do believe punctuality is a necessary life skill that can and should be learned whether it comes easily by nature or not. I also think that like poor spelling or grammar, perpetual lateness does reflect negatively on a person overall, especially in any professional capacity. I'm not naturally inclined to be punctual myself, but I don't think that gives me a valid excuse to be consistently late to activities that involve other people.

 

I have higher expectations for myself than I do for others in this area, and I try to be flexible and extend grace to people rather than make assumptions—though that wasn't always the case. One of my old friends was frequently late (or never showed up at all) to get-togethers, ski trips, dinners, and it really aggravated me because I thought her behavior was rude and irresponsible. I felt like such a heel when I learned she had OCD and the reason for her tardiness was that she would get "trapped" in her home unable to leave until she washed her hands thoroughly enough or performed some other routine perfectly. That's not the norm by any means, but when I think about her it reminds me to avoid making assumptions and hasty judgments about other people's behavior.

[Pretty in Pink]

Thank you everyone for your responses to my sidetrack. :) A fascinating read.

Just one more thing, I cannot resist:

 

But what if the person who is not punctual the best around in terms of expertise? I am really sorry for pushing this so far (sorry OP for the sidetrack), but I am really interested where people's red lines are.

 

Languages are one area where this is felt very well. You have an option between a teacher for language X who is born and bred in the country where X is spoken, has attained fancy advanced degrees on X universities, has a genuine accent, lives the culture, etc. And then you have the other option, typical X majors, usually without extended stays in a place where X is spoken, who still make some "learner" mistakes and who just cannot reasonably compete with X expert from Xland (there are exceptions, naturally). And for argument's sake let us assume money is not an issue and you can pay both (obviously, the first profile will probably always cost you more, late or not). Would you really opt for lesser quality only because of one's tendency to be late, even if you knew that the sole fact you have an access to that profile of a teacher in the first place is pretty much akin to winning a lottery, if learning X is important to you? Would you still not be able to swallow it, no matter what?

(Not trying to change your mind or anything, just really interested in how people to whom punctuality matters think about these stuff. :))

 

Hypothetically speaking, I suppose that if my child's talent lay in basketweaving, and if we had the incredible fortune of having access to the most gifted, Good Will Hunting-type gifted, absolute and unequivocable guru of basketweaving, and this basketweaving genius had the unfortunate character flaw of always running a predictable 15 minutes late...well, yes, I would probably tolerate it.

 

Absent that, no, I probably would not. I do not have the spare time on my hands to work around the habitual tardiness of others. I'm sorry. I just don't.

[Peela]

My dh taught me a lot about this. He reckons in the corporate or professional world, being late will lose you contracts, jobs etc. They may not tell you why, though, but it is just disrespectful and unprofessional and you automatically lose credibility.

He runs a group therapy practice where he literally trains people not to be late for the session so that they can learn to get their acts together in the rest of their lives too. So, if they are late, they are not allowed in the door, literally. But they know- the very first time, they are warned. After that, no more warnings. These people are generally pretty good at being on time in other areas of their lives now- which works better for them.

 

But it kind of depends on the lifestyle, too. If you are not interacting in a professional way very often, maybe it doesn't matter so much. Some people are chronically late- but who knows what opportunities they are missing because people don't invite them?

 

I like to be punctual but am sometimes late for social events, but usually that doesn't matter so much- if it was important, I would make more effort to be on time. For appointments, I am generally on time. I do have a tendency to leave home right on time though, and if there is extra traffic, I might be late.

 

SUch a range of possibilities. I have one woman in my life that I love dearly, yet she is what I would call a flake and I wouldn't trust she would turn up to anything let alone on time- so I don't involve my life with her in such a way that I would be inconvenienced by her. She stayed with other friends of mine, and sometimes would turn up for dinner, sometimes not. That would make me mad, but to her, its no big deal. But she doesn't have kids or a partner- so maybe she doesn't understand why anyone else would be bothered. If there was no dinner she probably wouldn't mind either.

 

I guess I have compassion or both sides- nowadays, it really irritates me when people are late because I make the effort not to be, and it feels inconsiderate. But I remember a time in my earlier life when it just never occurred to me that it was particularly inconsiderate- and I was much more fluid with time- so it wasn't a big deal. I try to remember not everyone really perceives time the same way- but I do make a note not to rely on that person so much as I might otherwise.

[Paige]

I think that the tendency to want to be on time is a personality trait (type A) and the ability to be on time is a life skill.

 

I think punctuality is important for professional engagements, but for social outings, I think it is less important. What is important is the relationships you have and are building. To me, it is far more irritating to have people show up early or refuse to come to something at all because they may be late. In the first playgroup I was a part of, we had a saying that, "there's no such thing as being late to a playdate!" We were just happy to see you when you could come and for as long as you had. If you are late, then you can expect to miss out on some things, or to only play for a little while, but that's ok. In my family, if something started at 3, it means that is the earliest you will be welcome and any time after that is ok. Being early is not appreciated. Unless you arrive at 3 on the nose, it would be difficult to be polite unless you were a little late or sitting in the car until 3. Nobody is going to be waiting for you to start whatever is planned and we won't be mad if you miss something. We will welcome you for whatever time we have.

 

I think it is entirely different if you have something specific to do that others cannot do without you, but I don't understand why people get so uptight about someone showing up 10-15min after a park play day starts. For me, group events like that are soft deadlines. Group events for something like a field trip where everyone goes on a tour together and it cannot start until everyone is there? I will be on time unless there's an emergency or I get hopelessly lost. Park days? I'll get there when I get there.

 

I also think, just for myself, that some people are directionally challenged. I was late for everything before I got a GPS because I would get lost so often! I have gotten lost in my own neighborhood, going to a park I've been to 1,000 times before, and while following turn by turn directions. With my GPS and a cell phone to call for help, my track record for being on time is much better.

 

I would also be fine with a teacher who was predictably late if I was informed from the beginning and could plan accordingly.

[JennyD]

But THAT is absolutely something that can be learned - and it starts in childhood.

When my kids were still attending public school, our morning routine was planned and they knew how much time they had for each task: breakfast at 7, upstairs to brush teeth and dress 7:15, downstairs to put on shoes and coat 7:25, step out of door 7:30, walk to school and arrive at 7:50. Every.single.day. So, they grew up knowing exactly how much time it should take to do what.

If I have an 8am class, I eat at 7 and read the paper, and I know that I need to step in the shower at 7:15 in order to emerge with washed and dried hair and dressed for work at 7:27, at which time I will holler at DD to come and get her shoes on.

I know it's 8.7 miles to the barn where DD rides; so I know it will take me between 10 and 12 minutes.

 

So, somehow I can't wrap my mind around not knowing "how long things take". Usually, a person does the same things over and over again.

 

The one thing I admit is unpredictable is traffic- it can only be combatted by a generous time cushion. When I lived in a city and had to rely on transit, I'd plan to take one bus before the latest possible one that would just get me to my destination on time.

 

From what i remember of the article (and I'll go see if I can find it) this woman truly and honestly wanted to be on time, but when the counselor or whoever it was that was directing the whole thing took her through each step of the process for say, getting her kid to school,, it was clear that her estimates were just wildly off, even for the things that she did every single day, or multiple times a day. Which is why she was always late, every single day, for everything.

 

I'm not saying it's a good thing -- I don't have that same problem -- but in this woman's case it was really not arrogance but a weird kind of time delusion. Which isn't necessarily any better but OTOH it was a lot easier to address. Once they managed to convince her that she absolutely, positively, had to allot 15 minutes for getting the kids into their carseats and everything packed, for instance, she got much better.

 

ETA: I am not finding that article, although Google is coming up with some interesting stuff for 'chronic lateness.' I'll keep looking for it, though.

Edited May 19, 2011 by JennyD

[Pink Fairy]

This thread reminds me of my best friend's family. Her dad is German and her mom is Filipina--can you guess what the problem was? :lol:. Bernd would get fed up with his wife's perpetual lateness, but Cindy always said it wasn't her fault because she ran on PST--Phillipine Standard Time--where things aren't so precise.

 

We've taken on PST as our own little joke, but we switch out the P for other letters as the occasion demands (American Standard Time, Mexican Standard Time, Music Teacher Standard Time, etc.).

[kitten18]

The pick-up time was 2:00pm. As I was walking to the parking lot at 1:50pm, she was running at me, screaming at me for being "late". To her, 2:00pm meant 1:30pm at the very latest. She's better about it now, thanks to Xanax.

 

 

:lol:Made me laugh.

 

 

I read a great article a while ago about chronic lateness -- there was a woman who was always, always late and the article chronicled a sort of 'makeover'/education process about it. Apparently the crux of the issue was that she consistently underestimated the time it would take to do each step of the process of leaving and getting to her destination.

 

.

I was thinking about an article I read too. Here it is, I read it 1.5 years ago in the dentists office but it really stuck with me.

 

http://www.parenting.com/article/end-school-morning-tardiness-really

 

 

I am never late to classes, lessons, appointments, jobs, etc. Social engagements, like meeting a friend at the park is usually not an exact time, we could be 15 minutes early or 15 minutes late, depending on the day.

[JennyD]

:lol:Made me laugh.

 

 

I was thinking about an article I read too. Here it is, I read it 1.5 years ago in the dentists office but it really stuck with me.

 

http://www.parenting.com/article/end-school-morning-tardiness-really

 

 

I am never late to classes, lessons, appointments, jobs, etc. Social engagements, like meeting a friend at the park is usually not an exact time, we could be 15 minutes early or 15 minutes late, depending on the day.

 

Yes! That's the one! Thank you!

[petepie2]

From what i remember of the article (and I'll go see if I can find it) this woman truly and honestly wanted to be on time, but when the counselor or whoever it was that was directing the whole thing took her through each step of the process for say, getting her kid to school,, it was clear that her estimates were just wildly off, even for the things that she did every single day, or multiple times a day. Which is why she was always late, every single day, for everything.

 

I'm not saying it's a good thing -- I don't have that same problem -- but in this woman's case it was really not arrogance but a weird kind of time delusion. Which isn't necessarily any better but OTOH it was a lot easier to address. Once they managed to convince her that she absolutely, positively, had to allot 15 minutes for getting the kids into their carseats and everything packed, for instance, she got much better.

 

I can so understand this. It describes my DH to a tee. I don't why, but he has so much trouble with time management skills. I'm constantly telling him, "Honey, it takes more time than you think to do what you need to do". He consistently arrives home at 6:10, even though he says it's going to be 6:00. Why? Because even though he knows it takes 30 minutes to drive home, he seems to think time stands still while he gathers his stuff and walks to the car. That's just one example of many. I just plan dinner for 6:15...it's not worth the hassle. Also, if he's late getting started, then he doesn't move any faster to compensate. For example, if he needed to be in the shower by 7AM, but it was actually 7:15, he doesn't shower more quickly. He just starts his routine and when he's done, he's done. The carseat example above is also a good one. If he needs 15 minutes to drive somewhere and he needs to take all four kids, then at the earliest (on a really good day), he'll be walking out the door 15 minutes prior. Again, time seems to stand still while kids are being strapped into carseats and the 3 yr old is running around the yard like Buzz Lightyear. And then he wonders why he's 10 minutes late. I could go on, but.....well, let me say this....if we argue about anything, it's about punctuality.

[Ester Maria]

It's a big deal in most of America--to be on time. People get fired for tardiness quite often.

I really do (try to) understand much of those cultural differences and maximally adhere to "when in Rome..."; but some things, like this one, just never cease to puzzle me, as they always seem so blown out of proportions to me and make me want to just say: "Hey, relaaaaaax, all is good, it is only a few minutes! I will stay a bit longer anyway - if that does not suit you, well, when my tardiness accumulates, we can exchange those chunks for some free lessons! Relax! All is good!" :D

 

In my part of the world we have an expression quarto d'ora accademico, which literally means "an academic quarter", since there is a whole tradition of appearing a little bit late, originating from academic circles (which would start about a quarter late to allow for everyone to change classrooms, for those that are late to arrive, etc.). I suppose that for a lot of people that is pretty much some tacit tolerance level - 15ish minutes of waiting are often "assumed" to occur when something is planned, or at least not considered a big deal. In most countries in the region it seems to be the same with great numbers of people. I never really understood the "Germanic", "Northern" (and, by extension, much of American) mentality where slight tardiness is such a cardinal sin that is perceived as utmost disrespect... I would consider different things utmost disrespect, I suppose. So I am puzzled, "criminalizing" me for being a few (or, okay, a dozen - but not a few dozen!) minutes late is pretty much akin to me to "criminalizing" me for breathing a bit too loudly, or talking a little bit too loudly too... all of those are in the "small stuff" category to me, and when it comes to life (rather than academics themselves, where I am quite stringent and professional) I often follow the "don't sweat the small stuff" principle. It is okay if people are up to quarter an hour late, in my view. Professionality is important to me, but if you have somebody who is excellent except for this small idiosyncrasy, I will certainly not refuse better quality, as long as I am not cheated on my money (i.e. if they stay longer or, if not practical, allow for an extra free lesson now and then, etc.).

I really fail to see why or how someone being habitually late *should* be acceptable, esp when they're being paid for their time. Seems to me that the onus should be on them to adjust, not the employer.

I am not saying it should be acceptable, just wondering whether you would outright choose lower quality if there is a higher quality, but it just comes with one such "downside". One. A single one. And the person is willing to set things straight some way (staying longer, or if not possible giving a lesson free when it accumulates), so you do not get financially damaged (on the contrary, they will probably be more stringent about it than you and make sure that you absolutely get in terms of time and quality what you payed for)! :)

 

Not sure what to think anymore. Maybe I really have low standards in this area.

[Audrey]

Do people really, really care about that? How if I gave private lessons to your kid, often came 10-15 minutes late, but never cheated on your time, strictly speaking (i.e. what if I "counted" the time for the lesson from when we started working, not from when it was scheduled, and, in fact, what if I have been less than a formalist and not necessarily ending the same minute the time is out but, if needed, staying a bit longer too)? And if you were forewarned that dynamics with me is such and such? Would it really be a deal-breaker, the fact that I am often late?

 

What if I was really good at what I was doing, very professional, etc.? Would you really not wish to work with me because I had a tendency of being a bit late?

 

Just trying to find out how people feel about it.

 

 

If I were paying you for private lessons, then, to me, that would be paying you for a job. If we agreed that your job was from 1pm to 3 pm and you frequently arrive late, that would be a deal breaker for me. It wouldn't matter that you might also stay later.

 

The fact that we agreed on a time and you couldn't keep that agreement is what would bother me. If you told me "Audrey, if I have to start at 1pm, that's going to be difficult for me to get there on time." Then, I would suggest we find a time that you could be there on time. I would be willing to work with you on that. But, for you to be frequently late when we both agreed on a certain time is not an acceptable arrangement for me.

[regentrude]

http://www.parenting.com/article/end-school-morning-tardiness-really

 

 

Thanks for the link. I read the article with great interest - and can not wrap my mind around the fact that these people need a "professional" to tell them the obvious. Just.don't.get.it.

[cathmom]

I really do (try to) understand much of those cultural differences and maximally adhere to "when in Rome..."; but some things, like this one, just never cease to puzzle me, as they always seem so blown out of proportions to me and make me want to just say: "Hey, relaaaaaax, all is good, it is only a few minutes! I will stay a bit longer anyway - if that does not suit you, well, when my tardiness accumulates, we can exchange those chunks for some free lessons! Relax! All is good!" :D

 

 

 

Not sure what to think anymore. Maybe I really have low standards in this area.

 

I am the same way, in all areas but one. When I teach a class, I like to be there really, really early to get mentally ready. For my evening German classes, I liked to be there an hour early if possible. The last semester I taught, it usually wasn't possible, and I had a couple of students who would get there really early, so sometimes I'd be walking in 20-25 minutes before the class started and someone WOULD ALREADY BE THERE! YIKES! I hated that, because then I felt like I was "on" from the word go. And frequently they would ask me questions or just chat and interrupt me getting ready for class.

 

When I taught high school, I usually got there early. I do remember one day when I dashed into the room right on time and I did feel "late." I think one of my dc had gotten hurt or something right before I left home and that's why I didn't leave as early.

[Impish]

I am not saying it should be acceptable, just wondering whether you would outright choose lower quality if there is a higher quality, but it just comes with one such "downside". One. A single one. And the person is willing to set things straight some way (staying longer, or if not possible giving a lesson free when it accumulates), so you do not get financially damaged (on the contrary, they will probably be more stringent about it than you and make sure that you absolutely get in terms of time and quality what you payed for)! :)

 

Not sure what to think anymore. Maybe I really have low standards in this area.

To me, someone who can't show up on time IS lower quality. It shows a disregard for others, a carelessness about their professionalism.

 

If someone can consistently be 10-15 mins late, then they can just as easily be on time.

[Audrey]

I don't understand how 20-30 mins + is 'perceived' tardiness. Its late.

 

5-10 mins, it happens. Socially, doesn't bother me.

 

20 mins +, on a regular basis, I don't have the paitence for at all. Again, to me, its about respect. I'd rather someone rebooked than showed up a half hour late...frankly, I'd leave around the 20 min mark.

 

Sorry to sidetrack, but Imp... I totally get where you're coming from on this. I have noticed, though, that Canadians are generally more relaxed in the workplace than Americans, except when it comes to punctuality. IME, Canadians are MUCH more bothered by tardiness than Americans (hard to believe, but IME, very true). Canadians think it is a direct snub on them (or their company). I can't count the number of professional conversations I've had where "they kept us waiting. They kept US waiting!" is mentioned with gasps and accompanying looks of horror. However, Canadians seem less likely to tell you why they're perturbed. I'm still not sure if that comes under the heading of "politeness" or "slightly passive-aggressive."

[kitten18]

From what i remember of the article (and I'll go see if I can find it) this woman truly and honestly wanted to be on time, but when the counselor or whoever it was that was directing the whole thing took her through each step of the process for say, getting her kid to school,, it was clear that her estimates were just wildly off, even for the things that she did every single day, or multiple times a day. Which is why she was always late, every single day, for everything.

 

I'm not saying it's a good thing -- I don't have that same problem -- but in this woman's case it was really not arrogance but a weird kind of time delusion. Which isn't necessarily any better but OTOH it was a lot easier to address. Once they managed to convince her that she absolutely, positively, had to allot 15 minutes for getting the kids into their carseats and everything packed, for instance, she got much better.

 

ETA: I am not finding that article, although Google is coming up with some interesting stuff for 'chronic lateness.' I'll keep looking for it, though.

The thing that stuck with me the most about the article was "load time" versus "leave time". Having a load time has helped me to be a little earlier and not be so stressed that we might be late. For example, we have to be at ballet at 3:45 and it takes about 15-20 minutes to drive there. The leave time is 3:25 but the load time is 3:10 because it takes a few minutes to get in the car, then I ALWAYS have to go back in the house to get something, do something for the dogs, find DS's shoes, etc. etc.

[regentrude]

In my part of the world we have an expression quarto d'ora accademico, which literally means "an academic quarter", since there is a whole tradition of appearing a little bit late, originating from academic circles (which would start about a quarter late to allow for everyone to change classrooms, for those that are late to arrive, etc.)..

 

The academic quarter exists in Germany, too. Students will wait up to 15 minutes for the professor to arrive.

This reminds me of a funny story from when I was an undergraduate:

We still had classes on Saturday mornings, unfortunately a very boring one. The prof was late. It was 14 minutes, we were getting ready to leave. We looked out the door - and saw him coming at the very end of a long hallway. No way he would have made it in one minute. But of course we could not walk out, we would have encountered him.

The classroom was on the ground floor, so we all climbed out the window precisely 15 minutes after class would have started.

[Impish]

Sorry to sidetrack, but Imp... I totally get where you're coming from on this. I have noticed, though, that Canadians are generally more relaxed in the workplace than Americans, except when it comes to punctuality. IME, Canadians are MUCH more bothered by tardiness than Americans (hard to believe, but IME, very true). Canadians think it is a direct snub on them (or their company). I can't count the number of professional conversations I've had where "they kept us waiting. They kept US waiting!" is mentioned with gasps and accompanying looks of horror. However, Canadians seem less likely to tell you why they're perturbed. I'm still not sure if that comes under the heading of "politeness" or "slightly passive-aggressive."

Its seen as unprofessional and rude, ime. When Wolf was in sales, there were times he got the deal and someone else didn't b/c the other person was late. Customer felt if the guy couldn't bother to be on time for the presentation, how could he trust the guy to be around for service?

 

I've quit dating ppl in the past b/c of it. Figured if I wasn't important enough to be on time for, then how am I important enough for anything?

 

I don't have a problem telling someone why I'm displeased...but I've seen what you're talking about in action, and it seems to be a 'its-more-rude-to-confront' thing.

[Barb_]

The academic quarter exists in Germany, too. Students will wait up to 15 minutes for the professor to arrive.

This reminds me of a funny story from when I was an undergraduate:

We still had classes on Saturday mornings, unfortunately a very boring one. The prof was late. It was 14 minutes, we were getting ready to leave. We looked out the door - and saw him coming at the very end of a long hallway. No way he would have made it in one minute. But of course we could not walk out, we would have encountered him.

The classroom was on the ground floor, so we all climbed out the window precisely 15 minutes after class would have started.

 

:lol::lol::lol:

[Ester Maria]

To me, someone who can't show up on time IS lower quality. It shows a disregard for others, a carelessness about their professionalism.

 

If someone can consistently be 10-15 mins late, then they can just as easily be on time.

But I mean lower quality academically, results-wise too... sort of, somebody else can teach your child to level X. I, in spite of my tardiness, will ultimately teach them to level 2X or even 3X. At the end of the year, your kid will have advanced with me to an extent they would have advanced in two to three years with somebody else (I am taking quite a drastic example, but such things do occur, yes). And you still pick somebody else and not me because you cannot swallow tardiness no matter what?

 

I get it (or at least I try), the whole focus on the customer thing, etc. It is a bit of a mentality shift for me, but I get it.

Your last line is true too, though. It is a habit. Volendo, I could not be habitually late... but at the same time, that would be confining myself to a certain rigidity of schedule which is so hard for me. I sort of like things to "flow", rather than "cutting" them precisely... so sometimes they flow a bit slowly. LOL. :D

 

Okay, the bottomline is, we would not click in such a situation. ;)

[Ester Maria]

The academic quarter exists in Germany, too. Students will wait up to 15 minutes for the professor to arrive.

This reminds me of a funny story from when I was an undergraduate:

We still had classes on Saturday mornings, unfortunately a very boring one. The prof was late. It was 14 minutes, we were getting ready to leave. We looked out the door - and saw him coming at the very end of a long hallway. No way he would have made it in one minute. But of course we could not walk out, we would have encountered him.

The classroom was on the ground floor, so we all climbed out the window precisely 15 minutes after class would have started.

Brilliant! :lol:

[Impish]

But I mean lower quality academically, results-wise too... sort of, somebody else can teach your child to level X. I, in spite of my tardiness, will ultimately teach them to level 2X or even 3X. At the end of the year, your kid will have advanced with me to an extent they would have advanced in two to three years with somebody else (I am taking quite a drastic example, but such things do occur, yes). And you still pick somebody else and not me because you cannot swallow tardiness no matter what?

 

I get it (or at least I try), the whole focus on the customer thing, etc. It is a bit of a mentality shift for me, but I get it.

Your last line is true too, though. It is a habit. Volendo, I could not be habitually late... but at the same time, that would be confining myself to a certain rigidity of schedule which is so hard for me. I sort of like things to "flow", rather than "cutting" them precisely... so sometimes they flow a bit slowly. LOL. :D

 

Okay, the bottomline is, we would not click in such a situation. ;)

It genuinely boils down to respect. Someone that I'm spending my money to employ not caring enough (that's how it would feel) to be on time would be insulting.

 

When providing a service to someone, you should be tied to a schedule. Other ppl have other things going on in their lives.

 

I think part of it, for me, is having worked in health care. You'd better be prompt, or someone else suffers for it. Period. Every minute, every second counts in emergencies.

 

Don't get me wrong, you and I agree on many issues, I think you're a lovely person...but no, I couldn't hack paying someone that was chronically late.

[Jenny in Florida]

OTOH, it can, and IMO should, be learned.

 

Exactly. My husband is naturally punctual. I had to learn the skill.

 

I've found, though, that once I got in the habit of planning ahead to get places on time, it hasn't been tough to maintain.

[Mrs Mungo]

I am an Army wife. If you aren't ten minutes early, you are late.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Dear Ester, in North America we will cluck at you for failing to live by the minute hand on your wristwatch.

 

After we have gotten over our shock at your rudeness, we will brusquely invite you in, addressing you by your first name without permission and otherwise speaking with excessive familiarity.

 

We will expect you to want to get to work promptly since you are already late, so we will offer you neither chair nor refreshment. We will probably also neglect to properly introduce our children or our other guests. After all, yours is not a social call. It is business.

 

Sigh.

 

(I am punctual. My mother taught me, correctly, that attention to details of that kind could help this 'working poor' young woman become the dark horse in many situations. I am teaching my sons the same attention to posture, eye contact, firm handshake, etc., and punctuality. Around here, the early bird gets the worm, and the polite kid--polite according to American standards, that is--finds open doors of opportunity.

 

Still, I think it is foolish to not recognize that this is all purely cultural and not an issue of character.)

[MrsBasil]

But I mean lower quality academically, results-wise too... sort of, somebody else can teach your child to level X. I, in spite of my tardiness, will ultimately teach them to level 2X or even 3X. At the end of the year, your kid will have advanced with me to an extent they would have advanced in two to three years with somebody else (I am taking quite a drastic example, but such things do occur, yes). And you still pick somebody else and not me because you cannot swallow tardiness no matter what?

 

 

 

I'd have a hard time believing your the best if you show me a lack of professionalism by habitually being late. I wouldn't hire you after the initial notice though. I know myself well enough to know that I'd be bothered by it and look elsewhere.

 

If people are habitually late, I do believe they are saying they don't value me or my time enough to make an effort to get somewhere at an agreed upon time.

 

I go to church with a bunch of Greeks and agree that it's cultural, but that doesn't make my feelings wrong. It means I'm not compatible in certain areas with people who feel differently. That's OK. I cut slack in some areas, as I'm sure others do for me.

 

I wouldn't marry, hire, or develop a very close friendship with a person who was habitually late, because it's something of an issue with me.:)

[Jenny in Florida]

Would it really be a deal-breaker, the fact that I am often late?

 

What if I was really good at what I was doing, very professional, etc.? Would you really not wish to work with me because I had a tendency of being a bit late?

 

Yes, that would be a deal-breaker for me. If I'm paying you, I expect you to be reliable, and punctuality is part of that. I have a life, too. We have a schedule. Chronic lateness, in my world, is not professional behavior.

 

In fact, we did "fire" one piano teacher in part because she so often ran late starting a lesson. She always gave my son his full time (thereby making her late to start the next person's lesson), but it meant we couldn't count on how long we needed to allocate for the lesson. I couldn't reliably make plans for afterward, because I never knew whether we would be done on time or not. I would cut short phone conversations or skip an errand in order to make sure we were there on time . . . only to find she was running "a little late."

[Jenny in Florida]

Wow... a bit shocked by the answers. :001_unsure: Thank you for your replies, however.

 

Would it not matter the least bit if I was really the best around in what I did? Would punctuality, and thus professionality, for you come even at expense of expertise and having to go with the lower quality?

 

I would actually be very irritated by someone who told me that their perceived "bestness" somehow entitled them to be inconsiderate and unprofessional.

[Jenny in Florida]

Would you really opt for lesser quality only because of one's tendency to be late, even if you knew that the sole fact you have an access to that profile of a teacher in the first place is pretty much akin to winning a lottery, if learning X is important to you? Would you still not be able to swallow it, no matter what?

 

No, I would look around and ask for referrals until I found someone I thought was a great teacher AND behaved in a professional way.

 

Honestly, we've always found that good relationships are about as important to my kids being able to learn as how "great" the teacher might be. Both of my children would be irritated by someone who was chronically late, and that would interfere with whatever learning might otherwise be happening.

 

(For example, my son has a good friend whom he's known since they were preschool age, about nine years now, or most of his conscious life. The family is frequently late -- to birthday parties and theatre rehearsals and pretty much everything, as far as I can tell. Despite all of those years of experience with them and the fact that the boy is one of his closest friends, my son rarely lets an occasion pass without commenting to me about how unreliable they are.)

 

There are always options.

[Lawana]

Do people really, really care about that? How if I gave private lessons to your kid, often came 10-15 minutes late, but never cheated on your time, strictly speaking (i.e. what if I "counted" the time for the lesson from when we started working, not from when it was scheduled, and, in fact, what if I have been less than a formalist and not necessarily ending the same minute the time is out but, if needed, staying a bit longer too)? And if you were forewarned that dynamics with me is such and such? Would it really be a deal-breaker, the fact that I am often late?

 

What if I was really good at what I was doing, very professional, etc.? Would you really not wish to work with me because I had a tendency of being a bit late?

 

Just trying to find out how people feel about it.

It would be a constant irritant, and the good would have to far outweigh the irritation for me to continue with the arrangement. If you were an absolute master at what you were offering, and were not replacable, I would continue, but would have to continually remind myself to not get upset about it. That said, ds has a piano teacher that sometimes gets delayed, but he always calls to let us know, and it is usually by no more than 5 minutes. That is no problem.

Flipping the coin, if you had a client that was always late, and so delayed and upset your schedule, how would you handle it?

[trailofsparks]

Life skill. Learned behavior.

 

I do think it's rude to *always* be late. It's a bad habit to fall into. I understand that getting out the door with a large family or with littles can be difficult though. And I understand that, for some people, the habit is deeply ingrained and does not necessarily reflect their level of respect or consideration for myself or others (I know that some will disagree with that statement).

 

I know some very generous and kind individuals who are habitually late wherever they go.

 

:iagree: And will add - being late does not even cross some people's minds as being an extremely inconsiderate behavior. Keeping others waiting, while habitually being late is just rude. I was stunned, actually, as I listened to a friend (always late) casually say, "I'm always late, but I don't care. It doesn't bother me. . . but it does bother my son."

[cathmom]

My dc have a wonderful speech therapist who comes to our house. Sometimes she's late. If she's going to be really late, she usually calls, but after she's already late. It doesn't matter to me a bit! I don't like it when she's early (because we are usually still cleaning LOL), but I just don't care if she's late. My life is not that tightly packed that 15 minutes is going to spin my entire day into a tizzy.

[Lawana]

This is, I think, entirely a matter of culture. To me and many of my contemporaries, tardiness carries a meaning. It means you do not value me and my time. Apparently there are cultures that do not associate punctuality with respect. But this one does.

[SailorMom]

I just want to give a quick example of why being late (and unpredictable to boot) is, well, rude as all get out.

 

I planned a visit to a museum here for our teen group. Three other families RSVP'd. Our group website sends reminders the week before, and the day before in emails - can't miss them. My son and I got up early, went to the store to buy pic-nic food for after the museum, and then got to the museum about 5 minutes early, since we hadn't met two of the families. We had told them we'd meet out front. Every 5 minutes for about 45 minutes, we tried to figure out if anyone was looking for us and lost. After 45 minutes, my (very hurt - he was looking forward to seeing one of the kids) son and I decided to go ahead on our own. Because the people in the homeschool group are CONSTANTLY late, we had no idea whether to wait or not.

Turns out - all three families had made other plans and hadn't bothered to tell us. They figured it wouldn't matter because the other people would be there. And - why would we wait for them???

Yeah - I'm done with that kind of stuff.

I will also concur with the comment that people are VERY hesitant to make any sort of plans with homeschool groups because of their tardiness and inconsistency (they will plan on 15 people and 5 will show up, three of whom are 15 minutes late).

[SailorMom]

This is, I think, entirely a matter of culture. To me and many of my contemporaries, tardiness carries a meaning. It means you do not value me and my time. Apparently there are cultures that do not associate punctuality with respect. But this one does.

 

:iagree:

[cathmom]

I just want to give a quick example of why being late (and unpredictable to boot) is, well, rude as all get out.

 

I planned a visit to a museum here for our teen group. Three other families RSVP'd. Our group website sends reminders the week before, and the day before in emails - can't miss them. My son and I got up early, went to the store to buy pic-nic food for after the museum, and then got to the museum about 5 minutes early, since we hadn't met two of the families. We had told them we'd meet out front. Every 5 minutes for about 45 minutes, we tried to figure out if anyone was looking for us and lost. After 45 minutes, my (very hurt - he was looking forward to seeing one of the kids) son and I decided to go ahead on our own. Because the people in the homeschool group are CONSTANTLY late, we had no idea whether to wait or not.

Turns out - all three families had made other plans and hadn't bothered to tell us. They figured it wouldn't matter because the other people would be there. And - why would we wait for them???

Yeah - I'm done with that kind of stuff.

 

So, they weren't late. They just weren't coming. :lol:

 

Seriously, that's in a different league of rudeness. But I think that thinking, "It doesn't matter if I don't come because other people will be there" is fairly common. Unfortunately, those people don't stop to think that if everyone does that, no one will be there.

[jewellsmommy]

My dh and I have this issue. I like to be early, which I accomplish easily when on my own. When I add in the unpredictability of children then I am either quite early (built in too much time) or a little late (5 min type of thing and not happy about it :glare:) But, mostly I am on time. If I arrive "on the nose" so to speak, then I consider that late and I will be flustered by it.

 

Dh is chronically late by 5-10 min (like 3 days a week, every week). Believe it or not, his job has put up with it for 11yrs! He gets high marks on his review for his actual work but always the same comment "needs to work on getting to work on time." It is not because he is flippant about it. He does not take into account things like how long to find a parking space and walk into the building, getting his stuff out of the car, getting caught by an extra traffic light. It drives me crazy!

 

Dh is a right brain learner and I have read that right brainers have a harder time adequately predicting time consumption like how much time has passed or how long something will take. Dh is also highly distractable. There is always something that pops up to slow him down, not to mention his memory is horrible and that hampers him too. He is slowly getting better though. He used to be 15 min late to everything.

 

He does have some good qualities though...:tongue_smilie:

[Jenny in Florida]

Turns out - all three families had made other plans and hadn't bothered to tell us. They figured it wouldn't matter because the other people would be there. And - why would we wait for them???

Yeah - I'm done with that kind of stuff.

I will also concur with the comment that people are VERY hesitant to make any sort of plans with homeschool groups because of their tardiness and inconsistency (they will plan on 15 people and 5 will show up, three of whom are 15 minutes late).

 

Yep. This sort of thing happened to us All. The. Time. It's one of the reasons we quit trying to participate in homeschool groups. We discovered that other groups run by local organizations and not intended specifically for homeschoolers were much more reliable.

 

I could tell you stories . . . I used to coordinate the homeschool group field trips to student matinees at the Shakepeare theatre. I quit after a season, because I found it so stressful waiting for people who might or might not show up before the curtain rose. After that year, we just started buying regular season tickets for our whole family, because it was worth the expense for me not to have to cope with the rest of the group.

[Barb_]

 

Dh is a right brain learner and I have read that right brainers have a harder time adequately predicting time consumption like how much time has passed or how long something will take. Dh is also highly distractable. There is always something that pops up to slow him down,

 

I find this very true in my family as well. All of our late people are also lefties :)

[cindergretta]

Well, reading this thread has made me *so* happy to be ensconced in my little corner of the world, with my family and my friends. :tongue_smilie: My dh is Okinawan. My friends are all relaxed. We schedule *everything* for 11ish or 2ish or "when you get here." We just don't care, any of us. That is how we all hang out and socialize, etc. None of us are bothered by it and quite enjoy our group.

 

As a family, we are never late for work, appointments, lessons, etc. If something comes up that puts us off our schedule, we call, even for 5 minutes late. But when it comes to private, social stuff, we don't care to lose precious friends, cause stress among family relations, or add to the stress of life by getting wrapped around the axle of punctuality. :001_smile: Come as you are, when you can, grab a drink, pull up a chair, and chat away!!

[Ester Maria]

(Hi Eliana. Yes, Jewish standard time indeed - a light version though LOL!)

 

Wow, I think I would need a glass of wine after this thread, too bad it is too early to have it, it has got really depressing. Y'all really make it sound like such a cardinal vice, almost emblematic of a complete moral failure and absolutely a hill to die on in a professional setting, that I am becoming really paranoid, wondering whether it is such a bad thing, but I have somehow managed not to become aware of the magnitude of the offense.

 

All in all, time to elegantly :leaving:!

Edited May 19, 2011 by Ester Maria

[Jenny in Florida]

(Hi Eliana. Yes, Jewish standard time indeed - a light version though LOL!)

 

Wow, I think I would need a glass of wine after this thread, too bad it is too early to have it, it has got really depressing. Y'all really make it sound like such a cardinal vice, almost emblematic of a complete moral failure and absolutely a hill to die on in a professional setting, that I am becoming really paranoid, wondering whether it is such a bad thing, but I have somehow managed not to become aware of the magnitude of the offense.

 

All in all, time to elegantly :leaving:!

 

I don't think it's a vice, just a habit that many of us consider rude. And I don't see it as a moral failure, just something I consider unprofessional in someone I'm paying to work for me.

 

If you're finding enough clients to keep you busy and pay your bills who don't mind coping with this eccentricity, more power to you. But you did ask, and I'm not going to lie and tell you I would be one of those clients (for very long).

[Lawana]

I completely agree! In some cultures there are certain connotations to punctuality/tardiness, which are absent in other cultures... different cultures perceive different habits as 'virtues' or 'common courtesy'.

 

 

 

Uhm. Which one?

 

These boards have a wonderful geographic diversity and I think it is inappropriate and, frankly, extremely disrespectful to assume a specific culture as the "standard" or "default" one. ...just as it would be to assume a certain religion as the 'normal' one.

You are absolutely right. Since I do not have enough knowledge to define which particular cultures it applies to (American?, Canadian?, German?, Northern European?, etc.) I took the chicken's way out and used the word "this". I didn't mean any offense, and offer my mea culpa. Perhaps you can suggest a better way to state that I know it applies to me and my milieu, and from what I read here, also applies to Canadians, but not necessarily Mexicans, but acknowledge that it is not universal>

Edited May 19, 2011 by Lawana

[Barb_]

we just rolled from one bug into another

 

:confused::confused: A Volkswagen?

[Amy in TX]

...but then I am not a normal American. The communities I've lived in tend toward 'Jewish Standard Time' for many (not all) things, so I am comfortable with that dynamic. (Personally, I prefer things to run on schedule... and I am very aware of the message tardiness sends in the larger culture, and try to be careful not to offend, but, for me, punctuality is a convenience, not a virtue, and it doesn't begin to approach top priority.)

 

...snip...

 

It is interesting to hear some of the cultural differences; I wish we had a wider range responding, it would be interesting to hear more voices.

 

The bolded above made me smile. I have married into a Pakistani family, and we call it PST: Pakistani standard time. And it's not 15 minutes; it's one to two hours. Always. (I should say, always for social events--not school or work here in the US--but absolutely in Pakistan.) F/X, my SIL once called and asked if I wanted to go shopping with her. We agreed that I would meet her at her house at 4:30. I thought this meant we would leave for the mall at 4:30. I showed up at 4:30, to find her in the middle of eating lunch. :confused: She leisurely finished eating, then said, "OK, I just need to take a shower before we go." :confused: We left her house probably around 5:30. This is absolutely business as usual, lol.

 

Having been raised with the idea that it is rude to waste other people's time by making them wait for you, I used to get angry about this. But I've learned to just mentally add a certain amount of time to whatever the purported starting time is. (I now know that "I'm leaving my house now" means "I'm leaving my house in half an hour." :)) And everybody's happy.

[Lawana]

:confused::confused: A Volkswagen?

:D:lol:

[Kirch]

I really do (try to) understand much of those cultural differences and maximally adhere to "when in Rome..."; but some things, like this one, just never cease to puzzle me, as they always seem so blown out of proportions to me and make me want to just say: "Hey, relaaaaaax, all is good, it is only a few minutes! I will stay a bit longer anyway - if that does not suit you, well, when my tardiness accumulates, we can exchange those chunks for some free lessons! Relax! All is good!" :D

 

In my part of the world we have an expression quarto d'ora accademico, which literally means "an academic quarter", since there is a whole tradition of appearing a little bit late, originating from academic circles (which would start about a quarter late to allow for everyone to change classrooms, for those that are late to arrive, etc.). I suppose that for a lot of people that is pretty much some tacit tolerance level - 15ish minutes of waiting are often "assumed" to occur when something is planned, or at least not considered a big deal. In most countries in the region it seems to be the same with great numbers of people. I never really understood the "Germanic", "Northern" (and, by extension, much of American) mentality where slight tardiness is such a cardinal sin that is perceived as utmost disrespect... I would consider different things utmost disrespect, I suppose. So I am puzzled, "criminalizing" me for being a few (or, okay, a dozen - but not a few dozen!) minutes late is pretty much akin to me to "criminalizing" me for breathing a bit too loudly, or talking a little bit too loudly too... all of those are in the "small stuff" category to me, and when it comes to life (rather than academics themselves, where I am quite stringent and professional) I often follow the "don't sweat the small stuff" principle. It is okay if people are up to quarter an hour late, in my view. Professionality is important to me, but if you have somebody who is excellent except for this small idiosyncrasy, I will certainly not refuse better quality, as long as I am not cheated on my money (i.e. if they stay longer or, if not practical, allow for an extra free lesson now and then, etc.).

 

I am not saying it should be acceptable, just wondering whether you would outright choose lower quality if there is a higher quality, but it just comes with one such "downside". One. A single one. And the person is willing to set things straight some way (staying longer, or if not possible giving a lesson free when it accumulates), so you do not get financially damaged (on the contrary, they will probably be more stringent about it than you and make sure that you absolutely get in terms of time and quality what you payed for)! :)

 

Not sure what to think anymore. Maybe I really have low standards in this area.

 

I think the thing that gets me about this is that if I'm paying you for an hour and you show up 15 minutes late, even though I'm still getting that hour of instruction, it has actually taken up an hour and a half of my day (assuming I'm ready at the correct start time and the lesson goes 15 minutes past the original ending time). I'd have to decide if your stellar expertise is worth the money plus that extra 30 minutes.

 

A lot of that decision would depend on what else I've got going on. If I need to be somewhere else soon after the scheduled end time, it would be a problem. Your lateness would cause me to be late and have to deal with whatever repercussions that would cause. I.e., if my child is late to another lesson because of it, chances are we *won't* get the full scheduled time at that lesson.

 

But yes, if I knew you were the best and it was really worth it to me AND I had the time one afternoon or evening to have that kind of leeway, I'd probably hire you. Chances of those things all lining up would be pretty slim, though!

[Lawana]

I usually cheat and say 'in my culture' or 'my world' or 'my universe'.. or community...

 

I'm sorry I was so snappish - we just rolled from one bug into another & I'm crotchety and uncomfortable... but how rude of me to take it out on you! Thank you for hearing my intention & responding so gracefully! :grouphug:

You had a valid criticism, no apology required. I hope you and yours are feeling better soon.:grouphug: