"My job is to pray." Help me understand?

[Jenny in Florida]

(Justamouse, I promise I'm not picking on you. Your comment prompted me to ask a question. I am genuinely interested in the answer.)

 

Right up front, in case anyone isn't aware, I'm not a Christian. I wasn't raised with any faith, and I chose Unitarian Universalism for myself as an adult. I consider myself very religious, but UUs are, well, different.

 

I noticed the comment in the title in another thread, and it got me to wondering: Why pray?

 

I absolutely promise I'm not being snarky or trying to talk anyone out of their religious practices. I'm just trying to understand.

 

In the situation posited in the other thread, that of a teen questioning the worldview his parents have taught and developing views that do not align with that worldview, why would a parent pray?

 

Would you be asking God to guide your child back to your faith? If so, would it be because you would think God wouldn't do so unless asked?

 

I have occasionally asked "the universe" for help and have, occasionally, felt better or found my answer afterward. But, for me, it's more of a meditation, focusing on getting the question right, which usually ends up being my answer.

 

That didn't make as much sense as it might. I apologize. Maybe an example?

 

When I was pregnant with my son, one of the prenatal tests came back with results that concerned the doctor. Being me, I got online and started researching the test and what the results might mean. None of it was good news. And I had to wait a week to re-test and another few days after that for the results. Needless to say, it was not a good time for me.

 

I remember sitting in my church that week with my mind just churning with worry. During the "prayer and meditation" portion of the service, I finally forced myself to stop hoping my son was "okay" and instead hoping that I would be strong enough to be the mother he would need, no matter what.

 

Immediately, I felt better. But I'm pretty convinced it was changing my thinking, putting the emphasis on a factor I could control, that made the difference, not divine intervention. (As it turned out, by the way, the kid is fine, more than fine.)

 

Anyway, I'd very much appreciate any help in understanding "the point" of prayer. I promise to listen respectfully and with an open mind.

 

Thanks!

[Liz CA]

Here are a couple of things:

 

There is scripture telling us "pray without ceasing," "where two or more come together in my name..." Many more, but I am on a short break at work and do not have a Bible ready.

 

Also, in the old testament is an example that God "changed" His mind when people prayed (Moses beseeched God not to destroy the Israelites). I know this has been interpreted in many ways and some go back to "Providence" and that God does not change His mind but knew ahead of time the outcome.

Whatever one believes, praying is a scriptural command.

 

Someone with more time and very good memory will probably quote more verses and explain it better.:)

[justamouse]

;) No worries.

 

I would call your 'hope' a prayer.

 

I'll have to think on this a bit more to answer you, but one example I can give.

 

One night I glanced at my son's facebook. He wasn't here, he was away and about to do something very stupid. He and his friends planned on rafting down the river. At night. And it had rained for 5 days and the river was high and rough. Every year kids and adults die in that river, even strong swimmers. I prayed all night. I mean, I was up, all night, praying like the devil himself was on my heels.

 

I talked to him a few days later so I knew he was OK, but months later I found out the real story of how they all almost died.

 

I believe that God has a future and a plan for us. All of us. We're not random, I believe in evolution, but I believe that God used evolution and none of this is an accident. My son has a place in this world, and he has a job to do. Accidents happen and there are natural disasters, I am fully aware of that, but I believe that my prayers can keep my son safe, help him to grow into his full future and fulfill his life in the best way possible. May that all happen? I hope so.

[AnthemLights]

The following are quotes taken from the website truthortradition.com. I was trying to summarize what I believe, but they do a much better job of it. In my mind, it is a rather difficult subject.

 

“God wants us to be His partners not because He needs our wisdom, but because He wants our fellowship…Our requests are important because God is interested in us. God loves us and takes our concerns to heart just because they are our concerns. This is the nature of a personal, loving relationship. The relationship is not one of domination or manipulation but of participation and cooperation wherein we become co-laborers with God (1 Cor. 3:9)…It is so only because God wanted a reciprocal relationship of love and elected to make dialogical prayer an important element in such a relationship.â€

 

If the future were already fixed, prayer would be superfluous. But God chose to enter into genuine personal relationship with mankind, and thus our prayers make a difference to Him. The prayers of Moses (Exod. 8 and 32) and Hezekiah (2 Kings 20) are two Old Testament examples of God responding to people and changing what He saw was going to come to pass. Prayer changes things (actually, prayer allows God to change things)—history would not be the same had people not prayed. God has invited His people to participate with Him in shaping the future.

 

I love this quote: "Prayer is not forcing God’s reluctance; it is taking hold of God’s willingness."

 

Hope this helps.

 

~Jen

[lionfamily1999]

I don't just pray for the obvious (FIX THIS), I also pray for understanding, wisdom, discernment, grace, hope, love, comfort, and a host of other things. I pray, because God wants us to ask Him. I pray, because I know I need guidance and I know God is the best way to get that guidance. I pray, because I need God's strength, I am weak.

 

My mom is sick. When I pray for my mom healing is the least of the things I ask for. I pray that God's will is done, by mom, by her doctor, by myself. I pray that we'll trust Him regardless, I pray that our faith in Him stays strong. I thank Him, because I know I would be in a desparate state right now if He weren't supporting me. Sure, I want my mom to be healthy and happy, but I know that wants and needs are two different things. I know that God has good reasons for everything that happens and I know that I will not understand all of those reasons. So, I pray that I my faith will remain strong.

 

Most of all, I pray that everything glorifies God. I pray that God is glorified through my mom's illness. That I will glorify Him through my actions. I pray that I will bring glory to Him for it all.

 

Before everything went wrong Adam and Eve walked with God in the garden and chatted. That doesn't happen now, but it doesn't mean that God doesn't want to hear from us. Sure, I can 'think' at Him all day long, but it's sort of like updating your facebook status. Everyone knows what's going on with you, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't call and chat.

Edited May 16, 2011 by lionfamily1999
teh - the... oops

[Parrothead]

I don't just pray for the obvious, I also pray for understanding, wisdom, discernment, grace, hope, love, comfort, and a host of other things. I pray, because God wants us to ask Him. I pray, because I know I need guidance and I know God is the best way to get that guidance. I pray, because I need God's strength, I am weak.

 

 

:iagree:Sometimes God says "no." I pray for the strength to handle the occasional "no."

 

And as a Catholic we have the example of the saints to follow. Specifically with a parent praying for a child to return to (or come to) the faith the example of St. Monica who prayed for her wayward son. Her son eventually embraced the church and became a saint himself - St. Augustine.

 

If it is good enough for St. Monica...

[Debbie in OR]

I had an immediate thought jump into my head as I read your question but as I pondered it some more, I realize this is something we really should think about and have a thought-though answer for. There is a great quote by CS Lewis that I think summarizes it (at least for me): "I pray because I can't help myself. I pray because I'm helpless. I pray because the need flows out of me all the time- waking and sleeping. It doesn't change God- it changes me."

— C.S. Lewis

[Caitilin]

Didn't C. S. Lewis say that prayer doesn't change God, prayer changes us?

 

That's an explanation which works for me, and permits an understanding of your hope for yourself and your ds, Jenny, as a prayer which changed you. Another way that I am able to process the idea of prayer is that the job of prayer is to conform my will to the truth; again, your hope for your ds was such a prayer. Does that make sense? :001_smile:

 

Lol--Debbie and I are thinking alike!

[ereks mom]

God wants us to be His partners not because He needs our wisdom, but because He wants our fellowship…Our requests are important because God is interested in us. God loves us and takes our concerns to heart just because they are our concerns. This is the nature of a personal, loving relationship. The relationship is not one of domination or manipulation but of participation and cooperation wherein we become co-laborers with God (1 Cor. 3:9)…It is so only because God wanted a reciprocal relationship of love and elected to make dialogical prayer an important element in such a relationship.”

 

 

:iagree: I love this!

[Hedgehog]

Why do I pray?

 

Two reasons: 1) the Scripture says that I need to; and 2) it's my way of talking to God.

 

I could write a huge answer to this, but I'm on my phone and it's not conducive to writing essays. ;)

[Pam Wilhelm]

Why pray?

 

to bring my thought back into line with what I hold to be God's true creation...spiritual and perfect.

 

to remember that it is God and His creation that is real....not the material life before my material senses.

 

to find God's promise of love and protection for all of His creation.

 

for healing.

 

I pray...not to adjust God to me....but to adjust me to God.

[WishboneDawn]

I remember sitting in my church that week with my mind just churning with worry. During the "prayer and meditation" portion of the service, I finally forced myself to stop hoping my son was "okay" and instead hoping that I would be strong enough to be the mother he would need, no matter what.

 

Immediately, I felt better. But I'm pretty convinced it was changing my thinking, putting the emphasis on a factor I could control, that made the difference, not divine intervention. (As it turned out, by the way, the kid is fine, more than fine.)

 

 

I think it would be perfectly valid to think of that as a form of prayer. Prayer isn't always a petition for divine intervention. Sometimes it IS a means of altering our thinking.

 

Personally, I'm not much for petition prayer. For various reasons it doesn't do a thing for my faith. But there are many other kinds of prayers and many other reasons for it.

 

St. Theresa of Avila's Interior Castle is a lovely resource on prayer.

 

Here's one of her prayers. I tend to substitute "yours" for "ours". It's prayer that's not asking God to intervene but reminding me of my duty and centering me in that responsibility.

 

Christ has no body now but yours

No hands, no feet on earth but yours

Yours are the eyes through which He looks

compassion on this world

Christ has no body now on earth but yours.

 

ETA: I've often thought I'd be very at home in a UU church. :)

[twoforjoy]

This probably isn't helpful, because I'm more of a liberal Christian, but if you're interested in prayer from a more liberal/process perspective, I would highly, highly recommend Marjorie Suchocki's In God's Presence. I read it years and years ago, but it was the first time that prayer ever really made sense to me. Before that, I prayed, but mainly because it just seemed natural. (I think I've heard both Anne Lamott and Marcus Borg make that argument, that we pray in large part because it is simply natural to cry out. I think it was Lamott who said that all prayers are pretty much just crying out either "Thank you, thank you, thank you" or "Help me, help me, help me," and that really resonates with my experience.) Suchocki's book was the first time prayer ever made sense on an intellectual level to me.

[Trish]

God requires that we pray. Although he technically has no need of it, he has arranged things so that WE need it, and he both recommends and commands it of us. I'm presuming that's to help develop and maintain a relationship with Him. Biblically, he has promised results through prayer. (not exact results, but results). God is alway available to help us, but more is possible when we pray.

 

He required it of His Son, it makes perfect sense that He requires it of us.

 

It's one of the very few things in life where the motto "all things in moderation" does not apply. You can never pray too much.

 

If prayer ceased, the world would also cease.

[Jenny in Florida]

(I think I've heard both Anne Lamott and Marcus Borg make that argument, that we pray in large part because it is simply natural to cry out. I think it was Lamott who said that all prayers are pretty much just crying out either "Thank you, thank you, thank you" or "Help me, help me, help me," and that really resonates with my experience.) Suchocki's book was the first time prayer ever made sense on an intellectual level to me.

 

By the way, I absolutely adore Anne Lamott. I was thinking of her books when we had the "non-Christians wouldn't want to read a Christian book" conversation a couple of weeks ago. But I didn't mention her because I figured some people would tell me she wasn't Christian enough to count.

 

I've read everyone's responses. Thank you all.

 

Here's what I'm still struggling to understand: I absolutely get that the impulse to pray is there. And I understand that the Bible says God wants you to do so.

 

However, I guess what I'm wondering is whether those of you who do pray for specific things (keep my child safe, help me get through this tough time, etc.) do so because you believe it influences the outcome? In other words, would God choose not to help your child or provide you the strength to protect your family or the other things if you did not pray?

 

Again, I promise I'm not trying to be difficult or stir the pot. I'm just trying to wrap my brain around the idea.

[forty-two]

However, I guess what I'm wondering is whether those of you who do pray for specific things (keep my child safe, help me get through this tough time, etc.) do so because you believe it influences the outcome? In other words, would God choose not to help your child or provide you the strength to protect your family or the other things if you did not pray?

I struggle with this, and I mostly just consider it another paradox (Lutheran theology is full of them ;)). I know that the Bible shows instances of God changing His mind b/c of human prayers. But I also am firmly convinced that there is no "sorry, you didn't pray/you didn't pray enough times/with proper fervency or whatnot" - that God is just sitting there waiting for you to pass some sort of "prayer threshold" before He'll act. It's just not remotely consistent with His character as revealed in the Bible. I have no way of reconciling the two sides - but, like so many other things, I'm not sure there *is* a humanly understandable explanation of how the two sides mesh, and attempting to do so just leads to bad theology.

 

So I just believe them both to be true, and call it good :), without trying to force them to "make sense" :tongue_smilie:.

[Denise in Florida]

[quote name=Jenny in Florida;

 

When I was pregnant with my son' date=' one of the prenatal tests came back with results that concerned the doctor. Being me, I got online and started researching the test and what the results might mean. None of it was good news. And I had to wait a week to re-test and another few days after that for the results. Needless to say, it was not a good time for me.

 

I remember sitting in my church that week with my mind just churning with worry. During the "prayer and meditation" portion of the service, I finally forced myself to stop hoping my son was "okay" and instead hoping that I would be strong enough to be the mother he would need, no matter what.

 

Immediately, I felt better. But I'm pretty convinced it was changing my thinking, putting the emphasis on a factor I could control, that made the difference, not divine intervention. (As it turned out, by the way, the kid is fine, more than fine.)

 

Anyway, I'd very much appreciate any help in understanding "the point" of prayer. I promise to listen respectfully and with an open mind.

 

Thanks!

 

This is a perfect example of why I pray.

 

When I was younger I thought of prayer as a mystical ritual. i.e, "If I say the right words, I get what I want." As I matured I out grew this definition. :001_smile:

 

I began to see it as a search for meaning/connection/wisdom/love however you want to define it. I can honestly pray for "Thy will be done" and not secretly hope for it to go my way.

 

I believe strongly in the power of prayer. But quite frequently the power in the prayer is the change in ME.

[ondreeuh]

I don't understand this either. I "get" asking God for understanding, peace, or otherwise bringing change to yourself.

 

I don't understand asking God to change something outside of yourself - like an action, decision, event. I just can't understand why people think he changes the course of action based upon people's requests. I can't reconcile that with all of the awful stuff that happens in the world. Surely children pray to God for abuse to stop.

 

It makes me so sad when I see people give credit to God for saving them from a disaster (hurricane, flood, etc.) while their neighbors were not spared. Apparently God didn't think their lives were worth saving ... I just don't see how people can reconcile that without reverting to a pat "God has a plan for us."

 

[This is why I could never be a Christian]

[justamouse]

Bird by Bird has got to be one of my most favorite books-another Anne fan, here.

 

 

However, I guess what I'm wondering is whether those of you who do pray for specific things (keep my child safe, help me get through this tough time, etc.) do so because you believe it influences the outcome? In other words, would God choose not to help your child or provide you the strength to protect your family or the other things if you did not pray?

 

Again, I promise I'm not trying to be difficult or stir the pot. I'm just trying to wrap my brain around the idea.

 

I'm blind. Not physically, but in the way of God's will, I'm just a human. I pray to humble myself. To please take the scales from my eyes, give me His understanding, guide me into His will, change my heart.

 

But then there are prayers for protection, and in those it's something different. I don't think I can talk too much about prayer without acknowledging that there is a spiritual side to this life that I just don't see. I think prayer reaches beyond the veil. Do I think that God would let harm come to my child because I didn't pray? Of course not. But I have faith that my prayers line up with God's desire for my child's saftey and well being, and I mostly can't explain the rest. (and I also know that if despite my prayers my child was hurt, it wasn't God's will or my fault that I didn't pray with the right words or whatnot) I can't explain being woken up out of a sound sleep (or the myriad of other ways I feel the need to pray for something specific) and something being put on my heart to pray for. I don't know what it does, all I know is that I have to pray.

 

Then there is the stuff that forms us, like, say the prayer of St. Thomas Aquinas for students:

Creator of all things,

true source of light and wisdom,

origin of all being,

graciously let a ray of your light penetrate

the darkness of my understanding.

 

 

Take from me the double darkness

in which I have been born,

an obscurity of sin and ignorance.

 

 

Give me a keen understanding,

a retentive memory, and

the ability to grasp things

correctly and fundamentally.

 

 

Grant me the talent

of being exact in my explanations

and the ability to express myself

with thoroughness and charm.

 

 

Point out the beginning,

direct the progress,

and help in the completion.

 

 

 

I ask this through Christ our Lord.

Amen.

 

 

 

I do believe that praying prayers like these mold us over time.

[Sputterduck]

I look at it this way. Don't you want your kids to talk to you? You might know what they want and you might know what is best for them, but isn't it nice when they communicate with you? You may know that your child is going to be thirsty after playing hard, but your kid comes up and asks, "Mommy, can I please have a glass of water?" It would suck if he just assumed you would get him one and expected it to arrive without asking. That's rude, even.

 

God likes His children to talk to Him, to ask Him things, to communicate their worries, needs, and wants.

[justamouse]

I don't understand this either. I "get" asking God for understanding, peace, or otherwise bringing change to yourself.

 

I don't understand asking God to change something outside of yourself - like an action, decision, event. I just can't understand why people think he changes the course of action based upon people's requests. I can't reconcile that with all of the awful stuff that happens in the world. Surely children pray to God for abuse to stop.

 

It makes me so sad when I see people give credit to God for saving them from a disaster (hurricane, flood, etc.) while their neighbors were not spared. Apparently God didn't think their lives were worth saving ... I just don't see how people can reconcile that without reverting to a pat "God has a plan for us."

 

[This is why I could never be a Christian]

 

You can't have free will without allowing for bad things to happen. It's not that God didn't want to save the neighbors. God wants no one to perish. It's not God's fault that natural disasters happen, though the insurance companies call it an act of God. :001_smile: We live on a world with weather and tectonic plates and bad people who do evil things. Evil abounds. But those people aren't directed by God to do those things the same way God didn't say he felt like killing a few thousand people with a ___ because he woke up in a bad mood. That's not God. I believe God grieves for those people. But he can't control everyone or we would all be robots, yanno? But I believe that God grieves when people's lives are cut short and that's why 'God has a plan' for us isn't pat to me.

 

Fr. Barron has a great (short) video on this exact thing called God, the Tsunami, and the problem of Evil. He talks about how those things aren't God's will and how God cannot will something wicked-it goes against who He is.

[ksullivan87]

I will just say up front I am a Christian but that I do not have all the answers!

I can say that I do believe that God answers prayers and that it does affect the outcome of circumstances. I could go pages and pages of things the Lord has specifically answered in my life- things said only in prayer to him so I know that it is not just a coincidence. Trust me I was an atheist before coming to the Lord for forgiveness in Jesus alone(a story within itself) and I don't fool easy. :) It of course changes me too as I pray through situations and read his Word but I do believe he hears and moves when his children ask something of him according to his will.

 

That being said I also watched my brother pass away at a very young age after a long battle with cancer. Did I pray? Of course. Many, many long nights. But the Lord chose in His wisdom to not answer that prayer as I had asked. Do I understand? No. Do I have any answers? No. But I trust Him and I don't believe this life is the end all and that all things will come together in eternity.

 

Thinking through all of this actually encourages me to pray MORE as I sit and think of all the examples of His love and care over my life. I am so thankful for it. A good book that would be worth your time if you are interested is A Praying Life by Paul Miller. http://www.amazon.com/Praying-Life-Connecting-Distracting-World/dp/1600063004

[Jenny in Florida]

I still can't say I really understand, but your comments and explanations have been very thought provoking.

 

I appreciate the time everyone has taken to answer my questions.

[Peela]

To me, prayer is for two reasons- one is to express gratitude. The other is to pray for the best, highest outcome for someone or something- I might pray for someone to get well, for a situation to improve, for my kids to be protected from harm...but underlying is an understanding and also a prayer that whatever is for the highest good, is to be done. Sometimes that is for someone to go through a hard time, to not get well etc.

I do believe prayer carries an energy and it is powerful.

I do not believe in praying for specific outcomes such as high grades, for a certain team to win, etc. I would rather pray that the person sitting for an exam have the energy and confidence they need to do their best. For the team to play their best- in other words, I am sending them my love and positive energy-not asking God to take sides!). I would not pray that my will, what I want, overlies another's free will- such as that my child follow my religion. I would pray that they find their own truth and their own path, that they live their own truth with all their heart. I think that is touchy- to interfere with another's free will.

I love prayer. I think our whole lives are a prayer whether we like it or not.

I am not Christian.

[Peela]

You can't have free will without allowing for bad things to happen. It's not that God didn't want to save the neighbors. God wants no one to perish. It's not God's fault that natural disasters happen, though the insurance companies call it an act of God. :001_smile: .

 

I am sorry, but your perspective makes so little sense to me.

Bad things- like weather patterns, volcanoes, perhaps major accidents- are not God's fault- but good things are? I never understood that.

 

I see it all as very impersonal, and I have no problem with God.

[Chris in VA]

I struggle with this, and I mostly just consider it another paradox (Lutheran theology is full of them ;)). I know that the Bible shows instances of God changing His mind b/c of human prayers. But I also am firmly convinced that there is no "sorry, you didn't pray/you didn't pray enough times/with proper fervency or whatnot" - that God is just sitting there waiting for you to pass some sort of "prayer threshold" before He'll act. It's just not remotely consistent with His character as revealed in the Bible. I have no way of reconciling the two sides - but, like so many other things, I'm not sure there *is* a humanly understandable explanation of how the two sides mesh, and attempting to do so just leads to bad theology.

 

So I just believe them both to be true, and call it good :), without trying to force them to "make sense" :tongue_smilie:.

 

Thank you so much for this. I'm part of an intercessory prayer group, and you put into words what I believe so deep down! Sometimes it's hard to rest in Holy Mystery.

[sewpeaceful]

I still can't say I really understand, but your comments and explanations have been very thought provoking.

 

I appreciate the time everyone has taken to answer my questions.

 

First, I am uberly impressed with the responses. So respectful.

 

Jenny, I am a Christian. Raised this way. Had a few years on the fence and now devoutly follow Christ. I, too, have asked about prayer. God is all knowing. God is in control. God's will. Etc, etc, etc. It blows my mind that as humans, we think we can "change God's mind or plan" - sounds rather contradictory to me - dude, He's the boss - right?

 

BUT, I also believe the bible is the word of God. The bible is clear throughout... pray without ceasing. Over and over we are instructed to pray and HOW to pray. We are to give thanks, make requests, give thanks.

 

Hmmm... I've come to the conclusion that prayer is something I will never truly understand - amongst many, many others. But I am commanded to do so and I do. Sometimes it is nothing more than me realizing God has my back and those of the one's He loves (everyone) and the simple prayer (or not so simple prayer) of giving a matter to Him knowing there isn't a darn thing I can do about it (reduce the strength of a hurricane, decide my cancer results, bring my brother back into His arms, etc).

 

I try to focus my prayers on thanks, a heart of gratitude, and frankly, just verbalizing it helps ALL situations. Time after time after time I have had to face incredibly hard circumstances and by focusing on the blessings in my life, the prayers of thanks, has made the circumstances bearable.

 

Can we influence God? Who knows. But He tells us to pray so I do. It helps me deal with things and seems to lift me up... maybe so He can reach down and grab my hand.

 

I know that doesn't answer your question but it is good for me to think about this and verbalize it from time to time.

[mcconnellboys]

For me, God is a personal presence in my life who wishes to help me as much as possible, within the confines of my own free will. I do not believe He (and I use that pronoun simply for ease of discussion) would ever interfere in my life where He's not wanted. I do believe that He wants to help and will intervene when and if I ask. Now, it may not be in a way that I can immediately discern. It might not even be in a way that I'll ever discern without a lot of introspection - but I do believe that He will intervene as He sees best.

 

If I saw "God" as having created the universe then taking a hands-off approach to it, leaving the world on its own, then I really wouldn't see a need for prayer. But I see Him as the very essence of agape (perfect love), who wishes to be in a love relationship with us all forever. Prayer is the communion that allows that love relationship to grow and prosper....

[WishboneDawn]

I don't understand this either. I "get" asking God for understanding, peace, or otherwise bringing change to yourself.

 

I don't understand asking God to change something outside of yourself - like an action, decision, event. I just can't understand why people think he changes the course of action based upon people's requests. I can't reconcile that with all of the awful stuff that happens in the world. Surely children pray to God for abuse to stop.

 

It makes me so sad when I see people give credit to God for saving them from a disaster (hurricane, flood, etc.) while their neighbors were not spared. Apparently God didn't think their lives were worth saving ... I just don't see how people can reconcile that without reverting to a pat "God has a plan for us."

 

[This is why I could never be a Christian]

 

It's funny because I'm Christian and think just as you do on the matter. :)

I simply pray in different ways and for differnet reasons.

[mcconnellboys]

I'm reading his Letters to Malcolm right now (about prayer) and loving it!

[WishboneDawn]

Another note. I have a minister frien who made his own stole for certain services with needlepoint bargello. He said that every stitch was a prayer. I've often thought about that when I'm knitting or embroidering and trying to firgure out what that means for me.

[BeckyFL]

Here are some examples from scripture -

 

Ask and it will be given to you ...

 

The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

 

For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer ...

 

You do not have, because you do not ask God.

 

if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

 

I do think that God waits for us before He acts. I think that we, as people, tend to think it's all about us. That we control our own destiny... that we are "self-made". God waits for us to turn to Him... it's our acknowledgment that He is God and we are not. His wants to have a relationship with us. That's why we were created. AND there has been nothing that I've ever experienced that could be more wonderful than that.

Edited May 14, 2011 by BeckyFL

[leeannpal]

I still can't say I really understand, but your comments and explanations have been very thought provoking.

 

I appreciate the time everyone has taken to answer my questions.

 

I'm a Christian, and I don't understand all aspects of prayer either. But, I believe it because our human, finite minds cannot understand all these things on earth. The Bible even says, in the book of Job, "Who can understand the mind of God?"

 

The best description I've heard of trying to understand the things that do not seem to make sense to us, is to think of our lives as a sort of tapestry. We, as humans, can only see the work in progress on the back of the tapestry, All the knots, threads and loose pieces. God can see the front of the tapestry and how everything is coming together in a person's life.

 

Many times, when I have prayed and the outcome was not what I wanted, I know I've been able to handle it better because of prayer.

[ondreeuh]

You can't have free will without allowing for bad things to happen. It's not that God didn't want to save the neighbors. God wants no one to perish. It's not God's fault that natural disasters happen, though the insurance companies call it an act of God. :001_smile: We live on a world with weather and tectonic plates and bad people who do evil things. Evil abounds. But those people aren't directed by God to do those things the same way God didn't say he felt like killing a few thousand people with a ___ because he woke up in a bad mood. That's not God.

 

Actually, God is responsible for an awful lot of horrible things in the bible, to teach people a lesson. This is how the story of the flood looks to some outsiders: http://www.youtube.com/user/ebolaworld#p/c/0886D8914D5FA08F/3/Mk1owD9y1hc

 

That still doesn't answer my question - if God can't change courses of nature, then how can he protect people? People claim he keeps the storm from reaching their house while it hits their neighbor's. :001_huh:

 

I know there have been studies that show that people who pray while they are ill may have a better outcome, but I would love to see some sort of comparison of outcomes between people who have "prayer warriors" and those that don't. I just can't wrap my head around how people think it makes a difference at all.

[Kari C in SC]

;) No worries.

 

I believe that God has a future and a plan for us. All of us. We're not random, I believe in evolution, but I believe that God used evolution and none of this is an accident. My son has a place in this world, and he has a job to do. Accidents happen and there are natural disasters, I am fully aware of that, but I believe that my prayers can keep my son safe, help him to grow into his full future and fulfill his life in the best way possible. May that all happen? I hope so.

 

I gotta say I haven't read the whole thread, but this made me want to comment. As many of you know, my son was killed in a car accident a year ago. I am a Christian and I do have a good amount of faith. I don't proclaim to believe all that Christianity encompasses. But, you saying that your prayer can keep your son safe - strikes me. I don't believe our prayer can keep anyone safe. I prayed for my son, my family prayed for my son, etc. I believe that when you are born, God knows how many days you have and exactly when and how you will die. It has taken me a year to get to that point where I can say there was absolutely nothing I could do for my son. It was just how his life was supposed to be.

[Kari C in SC]

 

My mom is sick. When I pray for my mom healing is the least of the things I ask for. I pray that God's will is done, by mom, by her doctor, by myself. I pray that we'll trust Him regardless, I pray that our faith in Him stays strong. I thank Him, because I know I would be in a desparate state right now if He weren't supporting me. Sure, I want my mom to be healthy and happy, but I know that wants and needs are two different things. I know that God has good reasons for everything that happens and I know that I will not understand all of those reasons. So, I pray that I my faith will remain strong.

 

Most of all, I pray that everything glorifies God. I pray that God is glorified through my mom's illness. That I will glorify Him through my actions. I pray that I will bring glory to Him for it all.

 

Before everything went wrong Adam and Eve walked with God in the garden and chatted. That doesn't happen now, but it doesn't mean that God doesn't want to hear from us. Sure, I can 'think' at Him all day long, but it's sort of like updating your facebook status. Everyone knows what's going on with you, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't call and chat.

 

I love your post! I have spent many hours trying to understand why God would allow my son to die. I know we all say we have good kids, but if that were true then there would be no bad people in the world. I did actually have one of those good kids. We were best friends and he was doing great and he was a kind and decent human being. So, I prayed to save him and God didn't - does that mean He didn't like my prayer. No, it means He has a plan bigger than any of us. Thank you for sharing your story!

[Crispa]

Immediately, I felt better. But I'm pretty convinced it was changing my thinking, putting the emphasis on a factor I could control, that made the difference, not divine intervention.

 

That's what prayer does for me. I don't know if it's God or the Universe or Jesus or my brain/hormones/body on "slow-it-down, just breathe" mode or a logical, step-by-step thought process that brings me around, but what you describe is what tends to happen for me. I think that most of my prayers, however they start out, tend to come around to "may I accept whatever is, may I do what is right and helpful, may I trust that I will make it through this situation as I have others before this, may I keep hoping and striving for better." And also: "may X person be well and safe, may X person find the acceptance or strength s/he needs, etc."

 

For me, there's a personal aspect, too: a God that I pray to (although I do not understand who or what S/He is), and from whom I feel love.

 

I'm sure prayer looks different for different people. Could be that the same physiological (brain or hormonal or breathing) changes happen to each of us -- bringing about that peace or acceptance or strength -- and we just attribute it to different causes. Or maybe it is Allah or Jesus speaking to us. :) (I'm not meaning to be flippant, btw. I really don't know! Some say that's what "faith" is: not knowing, but doing it anyway.)

 

 

Edited to add: Anne Lamott says there are only two prayers: "Help me" and "Thank you." :)

 

Edited again to add: Apparently I skipped a page of answers here, because just now I saw where people have already talked about Anne Lamott. :)

Edited May 15, 2011 by Crispa

[Crispa]

However, I guess what I'm wondering is whether those of you who do pray for specific things (keep my child safe, help me get through this tough time, etc.) do so because you believe it influences the outcome? In other words, would God choose not to help your child or provide you the strength to protect your family or the other things if you did not pray?

 

Again, I promise I'm not trying to be difficult or stir the pot. I'm just trying to wrap my brain around the idea.

 

I'm probably not the right one to answer this, since that isn't exactly how I pray. I do know people who believe that the prayers of Christians can reach God's ears and prompt him to do this or that -- spare a life, close a deal, whatever. I don't understand that (and I am a Christian), but I do know people who pray for things and expect that God will (or might) grant those requests, just because of the prayer. Also, my friends/family who pray this way seem to believe that more prayers can be more effective than fewer prayers, so they request prayers from as many people as possible.

 

Most people I know who request prayers or good thoughts do so in order, I think, to have some moral support, to not feel alone -- to feel that there is somebody thinking of them. The prayers aren't so much to effect a certain outcome -- to cajole God into granting one's wish -- as to act as a sort of virtual hug or pat on the back. "I'm praying for you" can mean simply "I'm thinking of you (on a regular basis, at my appointed thrice-daily prayer time)."

 

The Bible says all sorts of different things about prayer. I like this one, from Philippians 4:6-7: "Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus."

 

It says pray always. It doesn't promise that you'll get what you pray for. It does say that you will get peace.

[simka2]

I have read this thread with discomfort and interest. My answer to the OP is, "I don't know." I don't have an answer :confused:. I do know I cannot "Strong arm God" into doing what I want. I also know that there is no way I can take on the responsibility for another's well being, based on whether I pray "enough." I have less answers now than I did when I first became a Christian.

 

I know the Bible talks about the Persistent Widow, sometimes I think that story is oversimplified and applied with to broad a brush. Yes, we are told to keep asking, keep seeking, keep knocking. But, sometimes I wonder if that is more for us than for whatever we are asking for.

[lionfamily1999]

Here's what I'm still struggling to understand: I absolutely get that the impulse to pray is there. And I understand that the Bible says God wants you to do so.

 

However, I guess what I'm wondering is whether those of you who do pray for specific things (keep my child safe, help me get through this tough time, etc.) do so because you believe it influences the outcome? In other words, would God choose not to help your child or provide you the strength to protect your family or the other things if you did not pray?

 

Again, I promise I'm not trying to be difficult or stir the pot. I'm just trying to wrap my brain around the idea.

I believe God wants us to ask. I believe that the answer will not always be what we want it to be. I KNOW that if I didn't focus on asking and trusting that I would murmer ;) If I didn't ask, I would complain. If God didn't get me an outlet to cry out to Him over my problems, I would cry out to others and those cries would very quickly disolve into mutters. I know God does not like muttering.

 

So, do I think that it will always change what happens? No. Do I believe I should ask anyway? YES.

 

This may seem unrelated, but what pops into my head is the Israelites and their 'adventures' in the desert. Rather than asking, they muttered. The more they murmered against God, the unhappier they got and the angrier God became. They wouldn't ask. They refused to ask. Instead, they leaned between their homes and complained. They darkened themselves with bitterness and unhappiness and REFUSED to ask.

 

The part that really sticks with me is the complaint that they didn't have meat to eat. Sure, manna from Heaven every day, but they wanted meat. They deluded themselves into thinking that as slaves they ate all this wonderful food. At one point God says, they will have meat and eat it until it is coming out of their nostrils. They will eat it until they hate it. Why? Because instead of asking they harbored complaints, they lost faith, they became bitter and they dragged everyone around them down with them. Misery loves company.

 

So, I ask. I trust God to do what is right, even if it's not what I want. But, I ask. Because I don't want God to give me what I've been complaining for "until it comes out of my nostrils." God wants us to ask. Would he have given them meat if they had asked? Well, I don't know, that ship has sailed. Did they finally get what they complained about? Yes, to their own detriment.

 

IOW, I ask knowing that God will give me what I want if it's also right. I ask, because as my heart becomes more Christlike I'll stop asking after the flesh and start asking after the spirit. I ask, because if I didn't I would just complain. And most of the time, all I ask for is summed up in one word. Help. Because I've learned that I usually don't know what kind of help I need.

 

I do think things can be changed because we asked. I do not believe that Lazarus would've gotten up and walked out of the grave if Christ had not asked. I do not believe the blind man would have seen if he hadn't asked. I do not believe the lame man would have walked if he hadn't asked. I do not believe that the posessed woman would have been healed if she had not asked. I do not believe the theif would have been forgiven if he had not asked. There are so many more examples of how things were changed, because someone asked.

I love your post! I have spent many hours trying to understand why God would allow my son to die. I know we all say we have good kids, but if that were true then there would be no bad people in the world. I did actually have one of those good kids. We were best friends and he was doing great and he was a kind and decent human being. So, I prayed to save him and God didn't - does that mean He didn't like my prayer. No, it means He has a plan bigger than any of us. Thank you for sharing your story!

:grouphug:

I've come to terms with my mom's impending death. That seems silly, knowing that we're all going to die, sometimes I forget that just because Mom's sick it doesn't mean her life is any shorter. Her doctor always adds "barring any unforseen accidents or events" whenever he changes her prognosis. He isn't talking about the cancer taking a turn for the worst, he's talking about life interfereing and taking Mom before the cancer can.

 

Knowing that Mom's a Christian I feel better now. Realizing that her death is not the end, it's comforting. I know I should have known this all along, but it's taken me about a year to figure that out. I don't have to worry or hurt, she'll be okay. It helps that Mom has started to think this way too. She's still pretty healthy and she is healing spiritually right now, which is so good.

 

Kari, I'm so sorry that your son is gone. I can't begin to imagine, I'm so so sorry. It's so hard to believe that anything can be bigger than our little ones. I'm glad you're healing. I wish I had better words. :grouphug:

Edited May 16, 2011 by lionfamily1999

[Jenny in Florida]

I have read this thread with discomfort and interest.

 

I apologize if the thread has made you uncomfortable. I hope you know that is not what I intended. I'm honestly just trying to understand.

 

After reading everyone's responses (thank you!), I'm not sure I have any better handle on this than I did when I posted, honestly.

 

What I think I'm struggling with is the disconnect (for me) between the idea that God loves us and wants what it best for us and has a plan and so on and the idea that our specific requests make a difference. Since I don't/can't believe a being worthy of worship would let something bad happen unnecessarily just to make a point, I'm still not grasping why he wants or needs us to ask for things.

 

The basic tenent of my person faith is that "Things usually work out." I have faith that the universe and the people in it are essentially good, although there are aspects of life I cannot control. Bad things will happen sometimes to me and to people I love, but my trust in that basic statement -- Things usually work out -- helps me be strong enough to cope most of the time.

 

I have always kind of assumed that my faith in the inherent goodness of the world is roughly comparable to a Christian's faith in the goodness of God. But this idea--that God wants our prayers and that we, as humans, have any power to affect his plan--is so outside of my frame of reference that it's going to take me a while to wrap my brain around it.

 

Again, I sincerely thank everyone who's responded. Your comments have been very helpful, and I plan to keep turning them over for a while.

[kokotg]

Prayer is constantly mysterious to me. I should really do more reading about different conceptions of and ideas about prayer, because it's fascinating and frustrating. I sort of keep a collection of ideas about prayer that have struck me and stuck with me over the years in my head. Here are a few:

 

*a guy in my Sunday school class awhile back said, "I think it's blasphemy, for lack of a better word, to think that God cares who wins the Superbowl."

 

*Anne Lamott on prayer (from Traveling Mercies): Here are the two best prayers I know:

"Help me, help me, help me" and "Thank you, thank you, thank you."

 

And then there's this from an interview Jonathan Alter did with Elizabeth Edwards a couple of years before she died. It speaks to some of the issues in this thread:

 

You've kept God out of the public discussion of your situation. Why?

I had to think about a God who would not save my son. Wade was—and I have lots of evidence; it's not just his mother saying it—a gentle and good boy. He reached out to people who were misfits and outcasts all the time. He could not stand for people to say nasty things about other people; he just didn't want it. For a 16-year-old boy, he was really extraordinary in this regard. I wish I could take credit for it, but I can't. You'd think that if God was going to protect somebody, he'd protect that boy. But not only did he not protect him, the wind blew him from the road. The hand of God blew him from the road. So I had to think, "What kind of God do I have that doesn't intervene—in fact, may even participate—in the death of this good boy?" I talk about it in the book, that I had to accept that my God was a God who promised enlightenment and salvation. And that's all. Didn't promise us protection. I've had to come to grips with a God that fits my own experience, which is, my God could not be offering protection and not have protected my boy.

 

You didn't lose your faith, you changed your faith? Or did you lose it for a time?

I'm not praying for God to save me from cancer. I'm not. God will enlighten me when the time comes. And if I've done the right thing, I will be enlightened. And if I believe, I'll be saved. And that's all he promises me.

 

ETA: had I read the whole thread, I'd have seen that Anne Lamott is already well-represented!

Edited May 16, 2011 by kokotg

[Haiku]

I am not Christian, and I have never quite gotten the concept of praying. Let me illustrate with an example. I am on a forum for people who have adopted medically needy kids. We had a family join once that was adopting a child with a certain illness. After several months their child arrived and was found not to have the illness after all ... the child had been misdiagnosed in the home country and was, in fact, healthy.

 

Great news!

 

But then the family announced to the forum that god had answered their prayers and healed their child. The rubbed a lot of us the wrong way. As a non-Christian, I felt like, "You believe in a god who would punish children because their parents don't pray to you?" Other Christians on the forum felt like, "So what about my prayers? God cares about yours but not mine?" Aside from the fact that the whole thing was just a misdiagnosis ...

 

So are people saying that when they pray they are getting god's ear in a way that they wouldn't if they didn't pray? That they are somehow influencing what god would do?

 

Tara

[simka2]

I apologize if the thread has made you uncomfortable. I hope you know that is not what I intended. I'm honestly just trying to understand.

 

 

Oh, sweetie! Not uncomfortable that you asked. I'm in the thick of trying to understand my own thoughts on this issue. I used to think I knew what to ask for. Say, someone says, "Please pray that my dh gets this job" or "Please, pray we sell our house." These are legit things to pray for. But, I have also known certain jobs that were desperatly wanted and needed, not working out...and that being a good thing.

 

Also, I am more and more unsure about praying for struggles to end in my own and others lives.

 

Basically, my prayer has devolved into more of a, "God, let your BEST be accomplished in their/my life. Whatever that looks like. On whatever time frame."

[lionfamily1999]

After reading everyone's responses (thank you!), I'm not sure I have any better handle on this than I did when I posted, honestly.

 

What I think I'm struggling with is the disconnect (for me) between the idea that God loves us and wants what it best for us and has a plan and so on and the idea that our specific requests make a difference. I'm not sure what you believe of the Bible, but I've pointed out a few instances that I think very clearly illustrate this. I don't believe that Lazarus would have spontaneously returned to life, the blind man been healed &tc, except that it was asked of God. In the case of the blind man Christ was asked whose sin led to his blindness and the response was that sin had nothing to do with it. It was done so that God's glory could be made manifest. God has a plan, He had a plan for that man that was blind since birth. However, should that blind man have chosen NOT to ask, he would not have been healed. Is this unfair? Well, is it unfair that someone who never seeks medical care dies of a simple illness? Is it fair that someone who chooses not to eat starves to death? Their help is right there, a dcotor's office or emergency room, food, but they chose not to reach out and take it. Since I don't/can't believe a being worthy of worship would let something bad happen unnecessarily just to make a point, I'm still not grasping why he wants or needs us to ask for things. I don't believe that God choosen to let anything happen unnecessarily. I do believe that being broken is the first step to being healed. I believe that bad things happen for reasons and most of the time we're unable to see why. I believe that bad, itself, is often a matter of opinion and point of view. God doesn't need us to ask for things. We need to ask Him. He wants us to ask, because it is good for us to ask. Whenever we start to think we're perfectly capable of going it on our own we end up far off the path we were meant to be on. When we stop asking, we start complaining. When we stop asking we start thinking we're much more than we are. When we stop asking and deferring to God we start to assume that we are the ones in charge of everything, we blame ourselves for things that aren't our fault and we congratulate ourselves on things we had little to do with. Without God we are wandering in the dark.

 

The basic tenent of my person faith is that "Things usually work out." I have faith that the universe and the people in it are essentially good, although there are aspects of life I cannot control. Bad things will happen sometimes to me and to people I love, but my trust in that basic statement -- Things usually work out -- helps me be strong enough to cope most of the time.My tenet is, God is just. When something happens that I can't understand, I trust that God has it under control and while I can't comprehend it, He can and He is just. It helps me to weather the storms and when I'm not strong enough (which is 99% of the time) I have God to keep me going.

I have always kind of assumed that my faith in the inherent goodness of the world is roughly comparable to a Christian's faith in the goodness of God. But this idea--that God wants our prayers and that we, as humans, have any power to affect his plan--is so outside of my frame of reference that it's going to take me a while to wrap my brain around it. The world is fallen, God is good. I do not believe that creation is a piece of God, so God's qualities do not, imo, translate into all creation having those qualities. Like I said, God is just and that is what I turn to when the going gets tough. I don't think people are just. I don't think the world is just by any stretch of the imagination.

Again, I sincerely thank everyone who's responded. Your comments have been very helpful, and I plan to keep turning them over for a while.

:D Edited May 16, 2011 by lionfamily1999

[Cheryl in NM]

I believe that God knows all that will happen, even whether or not we will ask for help and the outcome. I don't understand how; I know that I am incapable of understanding God's ways. For a control freak like me that was a big hurdle.

 

I got to this place because when my step-son was in a motorcycle accident I fervently and without ceasing prayed for God's will, but I was sure that God's will was for him to survive because he was so young and strong...invincible really. My dear, wonderful step-son died within 4 hours of his accident, apparently the ER doctors couldn't accept losing him either because they worked on him for 45 minutes after his heart stopped beating. None of us got to say goodbye, his last human interaction on this earth was with medical personnel. I was mad. I told God that I didn't like his will at all and this timing stunk. Over the last 2 1/2 years I've realized that I wasn't meant to understand why my dss died, but that good would come from it. Some good has come from it, but in my meager, very human opinion it wasn't worth his death.

 

So long story short, it took a death to strengthen my faith.

[lionfamily1999]

 

a good song (imo) on prayer, blessings, healing &tc. The back story is moving.

 

This is the stuff, Francesca Battista my favorite song (right now) and (imo) great explanation for why irritating stuff happens.

[Aelwydd]

This thread has been very moving to me. Thank you everyone who has offered up honest and heartfelt answers.

 

I'm not sure myself what prayer accomplishes, or if it ever affects God in any way. My own cousin died at age 20 from cancer, after fighting it for 6 years. She had thousands of people praying for her. Now, her mother has breast cancer.

 

I watched weeks ago, as people pulled themselves out of the rubble from killer tornadoes across the South, and couldn't help but feel anger as some of them proclaimed, "God heard our prayers and protected us!," while some of their equally Christian neighbors lay dead beneath the rubble.

 

And then, I think about the Sago, West Virginia miners from a few years back. Remember them? The 13 miners who were trapped, and had countless numbers of people praying for their survival? And how they all celebrated a mistaken report that 12 were alive, claiming that the power of prayer had worked a miracle, until it was found out that only 1 had survived?

 

I think prayer can bring peace, and emotional serenity to a lot of people, myself included. But I don't see that people who have others praying for them are any more likely to survive deadly disasters or mining accidents, or the flu, or any other deadly thing than people who don't.

 

Does that mean I think that people should stop praying? No. I guess I hope that people would simply be a little more...sensitive...to others when they happen to find themselves on the serendipitous side of tragedy.