CM did not require "just copywork"

[Kfamily]

Oh, thank you for sharing that site Stripe. I loved that site, and I too printed out every page and put it all in a notebook. It was from this site that I had decided I wanted to add ancient history every year from Year 5 on as a separate subject. In the end, I haven't done that but I still think I may. My older dd will be doing ancient history every year of her next 4 high school years. She liked the idea of speading this out when we discussed it.

[Guest]

.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Guest

[stripe]

Which reminds me -- do you know about the Charlotte Mason Digital Collection ?

 

I was able to download Mason's handwritten grammar notes from it, when I searched for keywords: english AND grammar. (Click on the call number: it's a hyperlink). I also found (search: geography) Charlotte Mason's notes for geography books. I found 96 items with her listed as the author. Access is free.

[Katydid]

I agree that CM's methods are much more rigorous than many people think. Two books that I'm using are Primary Language Lessons and Elementary Spelling. Both use copywork, dictation, and oral grammar and spelling exercises. The best part? ES is free on Google Books.

 

Just took a closer look at ES... could you tell me more about how you combine PLL and ES? They seem quite similar at first glance... do you just pick and choose lessons from each? Do you alternate days? Do you do a lesson from one of these every day?

 

Do you think doing WWE on top of these would be too much overlap?

 

Sorry for all the questions! :tongue_smilie:

[Medieval Mom]

This thread is a treasure.

 

I have a printout of something that is titled

PNEU CURRICULUM

from Charlotte's Daughters

 

I downloaded it (53 pages of small print!) onto my computer, but I've also been able to access the PNEU curriculum through the "Wayback Machine" at archive.org.

 

I intend to go back over this, myself, and try to glean more insight into it. Ambleside has these from the PNEU.

 

:drool: I had NO idea! Thank you so much!!!! :) :) :)

[Erika in TX]

This is a wonderful thread! I have been agonizing over decisions reagarding the use of PLL, ILL, and Simply Grammar for our use. I own them all but always get drawn into the "are these enough" battle. Thanks to the OP for starting this discussion!!!

[BetterthanIdeserve]

Wow, what a great thread! I am learning so much. I think it's time I took the plunge read CM's original writings rather than interpretations by others. :tongue_smilie:

[BetterthanIdeserve]

Can someone comment on how PR's grammar compares or diverges from CM grammar? Do you think the spelling portion of PR keeps it from being a CM approach? My oldest will be in first grade in the fall.

[joyfulhomeschooler]

We have been using Serl's PLL and I am wondering if we are doing it the correct way. I have seen no mention of the word "verb" in the text. Have I just not gotten far enough yet? Most of the time I have to try and decipher what it is teaching and explain it myself to my son. I think the last lesson we did was teaching paragraphs, but I can't be sure. It was a lengthy dictation lesson about an eskimo boy. So after he completed the dictation (over a two day span) I explained paragraphs in the best way I knew how.

Sorry for the rambling I just wonder if I am teaching this text correctly or if I am missing something in my instruction.

[stripe]

I was looking through vol 3 & 6 yesterday, trying to find her scope and sequence for language arts.

 

I found lots of other great stuff, but I wonder if you could give me suggestions on where to look for this, because I'm missing it.

[LizzyBee]

When I started reading about CM from her own writings, I thought she made WTM look easy. :001_smile:

[MrsMe]

We have been using Serl's PLL and I am wondering if we are doing it the correct way. I have seen no mention of the word "verb" in the text. Have I just not gotten far enough yet? Most of the time I have to try and decipher what it is teaching and explain it myself to my son. I think the last lesson we did was teaching paragraphs, but I can't be sure. It was a lengthy dictation lesson about an eskimo boy. So after he completed the dictation (over a two day span) I explained paragraphs in the best way I knew how.

Sorry for the rambling I just wonder if I am teaching this text correctly or if I am missing something in my instruction.

 

I don't know, but I dropped it because of this. Drove me batty. I wasn't sure what they're always teaching as well as it doesn't always state the motive, even in the TM. DD and I just sort of look at each other like, Huh? Some does, some doesn't, but the doesn't part annoyed me.

[AuntPol]

When I started reading about CM from her own writings, I thought she made WTM look easy. :001_smile:

 

:iagree:

[Guest]

.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Guest

[GnomeyNewt]

http://www.homeschoolingonthecheap.com/cheapchickblog/archives/155

 

Thanks for this blog link, it has been insightful to see how others view CM and look forward to her posting more.

 

 

I was looking through vol 3 & 6 yesterday, trying to find her scope and sequence for language arts.

 

I found lots of other great stuff, but I wonder if you could give me suggestions on where to look for this, because I'm missing it.

 

I recently go the book "Hearing and Reading, Telling and Writing: A Charlotte Mason Language Arts Handbook" from simplycharlottemason.com (here is the example) and I can't recommend this book enough to anyone who wants to follow CM style language arts. It outlines very clearly in modern english, along with the orginal CM quote (with what book/page number to find it on from the original series) explaining how to handle different topics. Before this book, I was pretty lost even though I've read just about every book out there on CM and I'm still diving into the original series, but for me it is a little difficult to understand. The new book outlines grades levels for each language arts skill and also has some examples in the back.

 

Formal spelling, grammar, and dictation don't start until around 3-4 grade from what I understand. Before that it is copywork/transcription, phonics/reading, oral narration (we do drawing too), rhymes/poem memorization, and informal studies in grammar & spelling (as you see fit, some don't do any at all).

 

CM really did require way more than just copywork, but the ideas that she brings are simple and easy to implement. It does help to get ideas from others too on how they've done it in this day & age.

[angela in ohio]

When I started reading about CM from her own writings, I thought she made WTM look easy. :001_smile:

 

Yep. I am always amazed at homeschoolers who do no grammar, require no thoughtful reading, have dc years behind in their schoolwork, but throw in a "nature walk" a few times a week who then say that they are "Charlotte Mason." :001_huh: That's why my first advice to anyone interested is always to read CM first.

[stripe]

The more I read this, the more I like it.

Language work in elementary schools by Macon Anderson Leiper

It is an outline for years 1 through 8, of a comprehensive plan for language arts.

 

Note that the appendix contains an assortment of typical poems for childhood enjoyment and memorization. It also contains a section for rural schools (I assume this means one room schoolhouses) that may be useful to those who have several children at different levels to switch between.

 

(I posted it somewhere in the middle of the vintage thread.)

[Medieval Mom]

The more I read this, the more I like it.

Language work in elementary schools by Macon Anderson Leiper

It is an outline for years 1 through 8, of a comprehensive plan for language arts.

 

Note that the appendix contains an assortment of typical poems for childhood enjoyment and memorization. It also contains a section for rural schools (I assume this means one room schoolhouses) that may be useful to those who have several children at different levels to switch between.

 

(I posted it somewhere in the middle of the vintage thread.)

 

Thank you! This looks like another wonderful resource! :)

[kolamum]

Boy, am I glad to see this thread! It's been bugging me for YEARS that CM is often accused of being an unschooler, "laid back", "relaxed", and other similar adjectives which simply aren't true. :glare:

 

Some of the breakdown may have come from Karen Andreola herself. She's written numerous books about CM and her ways, but I definitely get a more relaxed feel from Karen's books than I get from Miss Mason's own writings.

 

Okay, so can you explain this more in depth please?! I'm desperate to understand. I do get the relaxed simplistic easy does it kinda school days. I clearly remember her going on about staring out the window at a bird feeder.. and then these great big books her kids were reading {having a struggling reader filled me with a sense of hopelessness when I read that!} and then even her Pocketful of Pinecones also made it seemed like the two children had very simplistic and relaxed days.

 

Perhaps the true misconception is that people who get it write about it and try to give it that "old fashioned" feel that we expect vs what it really was. I mean it's constantly referred to as the gentler form of learning.

 

I think the idea also comes from Ambleside Online where daily copywork is listed. But they expect the parent to read CM and dig up what you just noticed. Some parents are going to read the list and think it is "just copywork".

 

Before I read much about CM I got the idea online that it was a form of unschooling where the children played outside most of the day and occasionally narrated some books that were read to them. :lol:

 

Yes! I most certainly read it at AO when I was debating what, if any, LA style work I'd introduce my children to. It stated quite clearly that children under a certain age/grade only did copywork. They did not do dictation.

 

I also understood it as dictation was how one learned grammar and so on. Thus, if they didn't do dictation they didn't learn grammar. Such a misconception I'm seeing now isn't it.. So glad the OP shared.. now to get my books to hurry up and arrive at my front door. :D

 

The lesson that you posted from the CM book is repeated almost verbatim in Karen Andreola's Simply Grammar book. Simply Grammar was written to encapsulate CM's originial work, I believe. I have recently purchased it, but haven't used it yet.

 

I appreciate the op bringing this up because I think it is a common misconception.

 

You know, I always wondered why Karen wrote a book about Grammar because I never got the idea from her book that young children did such lessons. Yet, the writing in the book seemed like it was ideally meant for younger children..

 

When I started reading about CM from her own writings, I thought she made WTM look easy. :001_smile:

 

Do you feel CM is harder then the WTM? I'm not being snarky, please oh please don't take it like that!! I'm being VERY serious here. This is a topic I've been researching and I have to say that it's always come off as a very laid back thing. I actually have the original series but they are in another country then I am and are slowly {like a snail} making their way towards me.

 

 

Okay, now I'm off to check out all those links. :tongue_smilie:

[Donna A.]

Okay, so can you explain this more in depth please?! I'm desperate to understand. I do get the relaxed simplistic easy does it kinda school days. I clearly remember her going on about staring out the window at a bird feeder.. and then these great big books her kids were reading {having a struggling reader filled me with a sense of hopelessness when I read that!} and then even her Pocketful of Pinecones also made it seemed like the two children had very simplistic and relaxed days.

 

Exactly. I don't think I need to explain it more in-depth because you've got it. ;) I've got the Pinecones book, too, and yes... simplistic and relaxed. It made me feel guilty for NOT being more relaxed.

 

I will also go out on a limb and say that SWB's own comparison of CM vs. WTM implies that CM was pretty relaxed. Now, take that with a grain of salt, as I haven't read that article in some years, so I may not be remembering correctly. But I do know that I walked away from the article feeling like it gave a wrong impression of CM. As so many here highly respect Susan's opinion (and rightly so, since it IS her website), it would be easy for many who got the same impression from the article that I did to dismiss CM without ever giving it a real chance.... done CM's way, that is. :D

 

 

You know, I always wondered why Karen wrote a book about Grammar because I never got the idea from her book that young children did such lessons. Yet, the writing in the book seemed like it was ideally meant for younger children..

I looked at it and didn't like it. My thought was, "Why do I need this book? I can do the same thing using good literature." In fact, I think PLL and ILL are more thorough than Simply Grammar.

 

Also, didn't CM originally write that grammar book, and then Karen just provided us with a modern translation of it? If that's correct, then I'm willing to bet that CM's version was quite different.

 

 

I actually have the original series but they are in another country then I am and are slowly {like a snail} making their way towards me.

If you can't stand to wait for the snail, you could go ahead and get started using the online version found at the AO website. I haven't yet been able to bring myself to do that, as I have the original series sitting on a shelf collecting dust. I confess that I haven't read the entire series cover to cover, but have read excerpts, and there's definitely a difference between that and the popular thought track of CM!

 

Recently my pastor's wife and I, who both have high schoolers, were talking with some moms of young children about regrets. She started out with WTM and then went to TOG; I started out reading Andreola and consider myself pretty relaxed... more relaxed than I want to be, and I've felt a lot of guilt about that over the years. Pastor's wife said that her biggest regret is focusing more on the academics than the spiritual; my biggest regret is being too relaxed. Interesting contrast. I wonder if she had known that CM's methods aren't as relaxed as they're purported to be, and if I had followed CM's own writings instead of Andreola's, if we'd both be more satisfied now than we are. :glare:

[ChristyH]

I don't know how to quote, but I agree with Donna, on having the regrets for being so relaxed in the younger years.

 

I, too, started with Andreola's book and was very relaxed, but I also felt directionless and without structure when refering to it. Reading CM related stuff from AO's website really changed my thinking. :001_smile: But it made me swing too far in the other direction.

 

Not a happy mix.

[kolamum]

Thanks Donna.. I'll have to look for the online versions while I wait.. That said, we've made some big changes in our little homeschool recently due to the whole "relaxed" issue and feeling like some areas need a bit more work. ;)

[Knittinfarmgirl]

The more I read this, the more I like it.Language work in elementary schools by Macon Anderson Leiper

It is an outline for years 1 through 8, of a comprehensive plan for language arts.

 

Very nice! Thanks for posting this here! I'm putting this in my read list right now.

[AngelBee]

Can someone comment on how PR's grammar compares or diverges from CM grammar? Do you think the spelling portion of PR keeps it from being a CM approach? My oldest will be in first grade in the fall.

Phonic Roads?

 

I am just starting PR2, so I can update once I have a better idea. There is no grammar in PR1.

 

The spelling is all taught phonetically (which is why I LOVE it). You go over about 5 words a day in PR1.

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

I think it can be very helpful to read CM's Original books coming from a traditional classical point of view. The best education of CM's time would have been a classical education and that would have informed her expectations and where she diverges from those methods. When I started reading CM *as* a classical educator rather than something counter to it (counter to the tradition of classical ed, not just different from WTM as one flavor of neoclassical), it was very enriching and helpful. :)

 

I've found this to be true also.

[lovemykids]

I haven't read this entire thread yet. I am just jumping in here with my opinion. :001_smile:

Many people also mix CM with a Ruth Beechick style of homeschooling. Having a relaxed CM type of homeschool allows moms to do more projects (or handiwork) and nature walks in the early years, which is something that many, more traditional type homeschoolers do not get enough of. I think this is the relaxed method we think of. CM is "lighter" in the lower grades than other methods, as in workload.

Copywork really is all that is needed at a young age for many children. (when I say young, I mean K-2 or so) It allows them to work on their handwriting skills without worrying about coming up with content. It also helps them to see proper sentence structure, spelling, grammar usage, and more. Most parents should be able to teach beginning grammar alongside copywork without too much trouble.

But yes, CM is not a walk on easy street. Unfortunately, a lot of moms misconstrue her methods, turning out somewhat illiterate children that cannot even write a paragraph by fifth or sixth grade, let alone a report of any kind ........and that really is a shame.

:blink:

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

Many people also mix CM with a Ruth Beechick style of homeschooling.

 

I've heard there are definitely differences and I meant to ask this ages ago - could someone explain the differences to me in a nutshell, please?

[Bluegoat]

 

Formal spelling, grammar, and dictation don't start until around 3-4 grade from what I understand. Before that it is copywork/transcription, phonics/reading, oral narration (we do drawing too), rhymes/poem memorization, and informal studies in grammar & spelling (as you see fit, some don't do any at all).

 

This is an older thread, but I wanted to comment on this. It makes a lot of sense to me that it would not be until about grade three that you would start a more formal type of grammar. Until a child has a well of textual and language experiences to draw upon, it is difficult for them to abstract from those in a way that is helpful rather than harmful. And as another post pointed out, having handwriting mastered to some degree before requiring content is important.

 

I honestly don't get the point of comparing which system is the "hardest". The point is what is developmentally appropriate. And modern North Americans pretty consistently are getting the message that earlier is better, despite a lot of evidence o show that isn't necessarily the case. In the past children in the grade 1 - 2 range were just easing into studies at age 6 to 8, and that is still the case in many other countries outside of North America.

 

IMO the CM method takes small children who are concrete and essentially experiential and transitions them by grade three or four into children who are really ready to begin a much more rigorous academic study.

[LittleIzumi]

I will! How could I forget? :)

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=zpQAAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=elementary+speller+wheeler&source=bl&ots=q_XVN5EwI8&sig=DXr7ERNyxV3nU8gXYoSxbWUz6Bw&hl=en&ei=6nC0TYKsI4nEgAe457DGCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

 

Awesome, thanks!!

[Hunter]

bump!

[lorisuewho]

Great thread, worth the bump :hurray:.  I probably wouldn't have come across it otherwise.

[strange_girl]

Thanks for the bump, Hunter :)

 

I really love both classical education and CM...we have an eclectic sort of combination going on here.

 

Just wanted to say thanks for all the great info and links posted here; this is a great thread!

[Nicholas_mom]

• Great thread!  Thanks for the bump.

Sagira - Thanks for the link for Elementary Spelling.  I wonder if there is lesson plans laid out like there is for PLL and ILL like these http://www.primarylanguagelessons.com/faq ?????

[Hunter]

Yeh, CM isn't what a lot of people say it is. On top of that I see a lot of CM's generalizations being applied to all grades and all circumstances when I don't think they were meant to be. Also I doubt that CM did not grow and change over the years and do things differently, but people are trying to read all her writings and the PNEU writings as an unchanging whole. And no matter what, I don't think following ANY person from another century religiously makes any sense at all.

 

Diving into the depths of CM, like I have done with Waldorf and Principle Approach is awfully time consuming for what I actually end out using, but it's what I'm going right now. PA, TWTM 1st edition, and Waldorf taught me to use less workbooks, but CM is helping me reduce my carbon footprint even more by reducing my use of paper.

 

I'm a bit frustrated with people's rigid ideas of CM. I just don't think it's the nice neat box, any of the popular CM boxes, that people try to preach at me. And I don't think she was perfect. I am so thankful for the people who have taken the time to try to understand CM writings and share their interpretations for free or for profit! I'm not ungrateful, just having flashbacks of attending certain churches.

 

This is a great thread.

 

I wish Simply Grammar was in an ebook. I do think it's a bit different than the other vintage books, from what I can see in the samples.. It's funny that so many CM zealots don't use it. ;-)

[sagira]

PLL and ILL are just right for us. I haven't found anything else that I like better in terms of grammar/English. I like Galore Park too, but since we choose our own books for literature it was superfluous.

 

The only reason I quit Elementary Speller was because it was an ebook. I seem to do better with a physical copy in my hand.

[Hunter]

Which reminds me -- do you know about the Charlotte Mason Digital Collection ?

 

I was able to download Mason's handwritten grammar notes from it, when I searched for keywords: english AND grammar. (Click on the call number: it's a hyperlink). I also found (search: geography) Charlotte Mason's notes for geography books. I found 96 items with her listed as the author. Access is free.

These documents seem to be locked to me. :-(

[Amy Jo]

Hunter they are compressed files -- I had to download them to my computer and then try 2 or 3 different programs before I found one that worked to read them. Kind of a pain, but usually well worth it.

[Hunter]

UGH! I just cannot seem to see more than one page not matter what I try.

[maize]

Thanks for bumping this.

[vaquitita]

Wow, what a great thread. Bumping so more people can read this old thread...

[vaquitita]

Nm

Edited December 13, 2015 by vaquitita

[kiwik]

I haven't read the stuff but it may have seemed like the kids had relaxed days because it was a while ago. When I was at school in the 70's I walked to and from school then played outside until dark. We had no TV, no homework and most of all no afterschool care or activities. Plenty of time to make teasets with gum nuts and watch the sunset.

[jenslp]

From Home Education:

 

LESSON I

 

Words put together so as to make sense form what is called a sentence.

 

'Barley oats chair really good and cherry' is not a sentence, because it makes no(n)sense.

 

'Tom has said his lesson' is a sentence.

 

It is a sentence because it tells us something about Tom.

 

Every sentence speaks of someone or of something, and tells us something about that of which it speaks.

 

So a sentence has two parts:

(1) The thing we speak of;

(2) What we say about it.

 

In our sentence we speak of 'Tom.'

 

We say about him that he 'has learned his lesson.'

 

The thing we speak of is often called the SUBJECT, which just means that which we talk about.

 

People sometimes say 'the subject of conversation was so and so,' which is another way of saying 'the thing we were speaking about was so and so.'

 

To be learnt––

 

Words put together so as to make sense form a sentence.

A sentence has two parts: that which we speak of, and what we say about it.

That which we speak of is the SUBJECT.

 

Exercises on Lesson I

 

1. Put the first part to––

 

––has a long mane.

––is broken.

––cannot do his sums.

––played for an hour;

etc., etc.

 

2. Put the second part to––

 

That poor boy––.

My brother Tom––.

The broken flowerpot––.

Bread and jam––.

Brown's tool-basket––;

etc., etc.

 

3. Put six different subjects to each half sentence in 1.

 

4. Make six different sentences with each subject in 2.

 

5. Say which part of the sentence is wanting, and supply it in––

 

Has been mended

Tom's knife

That little dog

Cut his finger

Ate too much fruit

My new book

The snowdrops in our garden, etc., etc.

 

N.B.––Be careful to call the first part of each sentence the subject.

 

Draw a line under the subject of each sentence in all the exercises.

 

LESSON II

 

We may make a sentence with only two words––the name of the thing we speak of, and what we say about it:––

 

John writes.

Birds sing.

Mary sews.

 

We speak about 'John.'

We say about him that he 'writes.'

We speak about 'birds.'

We say about them that they 'sing.'

 

These words, writes, sing, sews, all come out of the same group of words, and the words in that group are the chief words of all, for this reason––we cannot make sense, and therefore cannot make a sentence, without using at least one of them.

 

They are called VERBS, which means words, because they are the chief words of all.

 

A verb always tells one of two things about the subject. Either it tells what the subject is, as––

 

I am hungry.

The chair is broken.

The birds are merry;

 

or it tells what the subject does, as––

 

Alice writes.

The cat mews.

He calls.

 

To be learnt––

 

We cannot make a sentence without a verb.

Verb means word.

Verbs are the chief words.

Verbs show that the subject is something––

 

He is sleepy;

 

or does something––

 

He runs.

 

Exercises on Lesson II

 

1. Put in a verb of being:––

 

Mary––sleepy.

Boys––rough.

Girls––quiet.

He––first yesterday.

I––a little boy.

Tom and George––swinging before dinner.

We––busy to-morrow.

He––punished;

etc., etc.

 

2. Make three sentences with each of the following verbs:––

 

Is, are, should be, was, am, were, shall be, will be.

 

3. Make six sentences with verbs of being in each.

 

4. Put a verb of doing to––

 

Tigers––.

The boy with the pony––.

My cousins––;

etc., etc.

 

5. Make twenty sentences about––

 

That boy in kilts,

 

with verbs showing what he does.

 

6. Find the verbs, and say whether of being or doing, in––

 

The bright sun rises over the hill.

We went away.

You are my cousin.

George goes to school.

He took his slate.

We are seven.

 

7. Count how many verbs you use in your talk for the next ten minutes.

 

8. Write every verb you can find in these exercises, and draw a line under it.

 

That is almost exactly the lessons from Reed and Kelloggs old grammar books.  They are available free on google books.  They are my favorite of the old grammar texts, much better than Harvey's in my opinion.