CM did not require "just copywork"

[Medieval Mom]

Okay, I'm getting up on my soapbox here. Plug your ears. :D

 

CM did not require "just copywork" from her young students!

 

There. I said it.

 

I'm not sure where the rumor got started; but it's not true, according to the first volume of her educational series, Home Education.

 

Below, I'll post some exercises CM suggested for the younger set.

 

Now, mind you, I'm no CM expert. I've only read the first volume of CM's work so far. But I've read SO MANY times in SO MANY places that CM just had children write "a little bit" and "just copywork for the first several years" that I believed it. (I just didn't follow that advice. :D )

 

If you want to do just copywork, go ahead! But if you want to follow a CM method and feel guilty about using a LA program, or you are wondering why copywork "isn't enough", etc., well... 1) Don't feel guilty, and 2)Maybe, just maybe, it isn't enough. ;)

 

As I wrote in another thread, when I read the following quote in Home Education, I literally dropped the book. The exercises are so very similar to what we're doing in R&S English 2, or to FLL!

 

Well, y'all probably know all this already, but even if I help just one person from falling into the same misconception I had, it's enough.:)

Edited April 23, 2011 by Medieval Mom

[Medieval Mom]

From Home Education:

 

LESSON I

 

Words put together so as to make sense form what is called a sentence.

 

'Barley oats chair really good and cherry' is not a sentence, because it makes no(n)sense.

 

'Tom has said his lesson' is a sentence.

 

It is a sentence because it tells us something about Tom.

 

Every sentence speaks of someone or of something, and tells us something about that of which it speaks.

 

So a sentence has two parts:

(1) The thing we speak of;

(2) What we say about it.

 

In our sentence we speak of 'Tom.'

 

We say about him that he 'has learned his lesson.'

 

The thing we speak of is often called the SUBJECT, which just means that which we talk about.

 

People sometimes say 'the subject of conversation was so and so,' which is another way of saying 'the thing we were speaking about was so and so.'

 

To be learnt––

 

Words put together so as to make sense form a sentence.

A sentence has two parts: that which we speak of, and what we say about it.

That which we speak of is the SUBJECT.

 

Exercises on Lesson I

 

1. Put the first part to––

 

––has a long mane.

––is broken.

––cannot do his sums.

––played for an hour;

etc., etc.

 

2. Put the second part to––

 

That poor boy––.

My brother Tom––.

The broken flowerpot––.

Bread and jam––.

Brown's tool-basket––;

etc., etc.

 

3. Put six different subjects to each half sentence in 1.

 

4. Make six different sentences with each subject in 2.

 

5. Say which part of the sentence is wanting, and supply it in––

 

Has been mended

Tom's knife

That little dog

Cut his finger

Ate too much fruit

My new book

The snowdrops in our garden, etc., etc.

 

N.B.––Be careful to call the first part of each sentence the subject.

 

Draw a line under the subject of each sentence in all the exercises.

 

LESSON II

 

We may make a sentence with only two words––the name of the thing we speak of, and what we say about it:––

 

John writes.

Birds sing.

Mary sews.

 

We speak about 'John.'

We say about him that he 'writes.'

We speak about 'birds.'

We say about them that they 'sing.'

 

These words, writes, sing, sews, all come out of the same group of words, and the words in that group are the chief words of all, for this reason––we cannot make sense, and therefore cannot make a sentence, without using at least one of them.

 

They are called VERBS, which means words, because they are the chief words of all.

 

A verb always tells one of two things about the subject. Either it tells what the subject is, as––

 

I am hungry.

The chair is broken.

The birds are merry;

 

or it tells what the subject does, as––

 

Alice writes.

The cat mews.

He calls.

 

To be learnt––

 

We cannot make a sentence without a verb.

Verb means word.

Verbs are the chief words.

Verbs show that the subject is something––

 

He is sleepy;

 

or does something––

 

He runs.

 

Exercises on Lesson II

 

1. Put in a verb of being:––

 

Mary––sleepy.

Boys––rough.

Girls––quiet.

He––first yesterday.

I––a little boy.

Tom and George––swinging before dinner.

We––busy to-morrow.

He––punished;

etc., etc.

 

2. Make three sentences with each of the following verbs:––

 

Is, are, should be, was, am, were, shall be, will be.

 

3. Make six sentences with verbs of being in each.

 

4. Put a verb of doing to––

 

Tigers––.

The boy with the pony––.

My cousins––;

etc., etc.

 

5. Make twenty sentences about––

 

That boy in kilts,

 

with verbs showing what he does.

 

6. Find the verbs, and say whether of being or doing, in––

 

The bright sun rises over the hill.

We went away.

You are my cousin.

George goes to school.

He took his slate.

We are seven.

 

7. Count how many verbs you use in your talk for the next ten minutes.

 

8. Write every verb you can find in these exercises, and draw a line under it.

[HappyGrace]

Sigh...this is exactly the way I want to do grammar with ds8 in 3rd grade next yr for his first grammar exposure-it explains it all incrementally and also IN CONTEXT and has them doing plenty of integrated practice. YET it doesn't move so slowly or have so much repetition as to assume they are idiots. But somehow it is still extremely STREAMLINED!!! and simple to teach.

 

I have yet to find a curriculum that does exactly that!

 

I totally agree with you about CM-it is shocking to read her actual works (I have the whole set) and realize how much more meaty her education was than most people understand it to be.

[8filltheheart]

Well, there is passive copywork which it seems you have interpreted copywork to be and there is active engagement in copywork.

 

My younger kids all "only do copywork." But, our lessons resemble pretty much what you posted. We completely dissect their copywork and replicate structures, grammar, mechanics, etc from it.

[*~Tina~*]

Great observation! Thanks for sharing. I think the CM books can be a bit intimidating and sit collecting dusts sometimes, leaving the information that is shared via word of mouth to be taken at face value.

 

This is good stuff :) Have you read the Original Series?

[Knittinfarmgirl]

Those activities are very similar to almost every single vintage book that you can get free on google. Those vintage books are real gems.

 

Could you share what those books are? I'm curious.

[LoveBaby]

Intermediate Language Lessons by Emma Serl has several lessons similar to this!

[Medieval Mom]

Great observation! Thanks for sharing. I think the CM books can be a bit intimidating and sit collecting dusts sometimes, leaving the information that is shared via word of mouth to be taken at face value.

 

This is good stuff :) Have you read the Original Series?

 

I'm working my way through them. I've only read the first book in its entirety so far. So you see, I'm truly no expert. I'm just blown away by what I'm reading. Good stuff, indeed!! :)

[Medieval Mom]

Could you share what those books are? I'm curious.

 

I don't have my regular computer here, or I'd set you up with some links to some great books online. But here's a thread that discusses quite a few. HTH! :)

[Knittinfarmgirl]

I don't have my regular computer here, or I'd set you up with some links to some great books online. But here's a thread that discusses quite a few. HTH! :)

 

Thanks!

[Penelope]

I think the idea also comes from Ambleside Online where daily copywork is listed. But they expect the parent to read CM and dig up what you just noticed. Some parents are going to read the list and think it is "just copywork".

 

Before I read much about CM I got the idea online that it was a form of unschooling where the children played outside most of the day and occasionally narrated some books that were read to them. :lol:

[twoxcell]

I agree with you and I want to add that CM is not unschooling.:)

[Mommyfaithe]

I agree with you and I want to add that CM is not unschooling.:)

 

:iagree: nor is it school "lite".

 

Faithe

[home'scoolmom]

This is very similar R&S 2, which I am doing this with my son right now. The longer I use R&S English, the more I am impressed with it, and the lessons are short and sweet (woot! woot!) At first I missed using CLE, which is what we'd used before, but now I'm not sure we'll ever switch back. :)

 

MP

[mom@shiloh]

The lesson that you posted from the CM book is repeated almost verbatim in Karen Andreola's Simply Grammar book. Simply Grammar was written to encapsulate CM's originial work, I believe. I have recently purchased it, but haven't used it yet.

 

I appreciate the op bringing this up because I think it is a common misconception.

[Tammyla]

:iagree: Charlotte Mason's The Original Homeschooling Series is so worth reading.

 

 

Sigh...this is exactly the way I want to do grammar with ds8 in 3rd grade next yr for his first grammar exposure-it explains it all incrementally and also IN CONTEXT and has them doing plenty of integrated practice. YET it doesn't move so slowly or have so much repetition as to assume they are idiots. But somehow it is still extremely STREAMLINED!!! and simple to teach.

 

I have yet to find a curriculum that does exactly that!

 

I totally agree with you about CM-it is shocking to read her actual works (I have the whole set) and realize how much more meaty her education was than most people understand it to be.

[mbosh237]

What a great thread. The information here and in the linked thread has been amazing! I'm still working through the first volume. I would encourage everyone to read it and not just count on word of mouth information!

[Whereneverever]

What a great thread. The information here and in the linked thread has been amazing! I'm still working through the first volume. I would encourage everyone to read it and not just count on word of mouth information!

:iagree: I'm reading through all her books, as well, and I can't believe how different (different better, IMO) they are then the Charlotte Mason ideas I've heard about.

 

I wonder where and how the break down occurred? Why is AO's scope and sequence so different the CM's?

[Jami]

I think it can be very helpful to read CM's Original books coming from a traditional classical point of view. The best education of CM's time would have been a classical education and that would have informed her expectations and where she diverges from those methods. When I started reading CM *as* a classical educator rather than something counter to it (counter to the tradition of classical ed, not just different from WTM as one flavor of neoclassical), it was very enriching and helpful. :)

[susankenny]

This is fabulous information. I too have always read that CM was ever-so gentle and involved little academics (if any) in the early years. Spelling? Writing? Forget it! Just copy some words & they'll be fine.

 

Susan

[sagira]

I agree that CM's methods are much more rigorous than many people think. Two books that I'm using are Primary Language Lessons and Elementary Spelling. Both use copywork, dictation, and oral grammar and spelling exercises. The best part? ES is free on Google Books.

[susankenny]

ES is free on Google Books.

 

Will you share a link!!:D

 

 

Susan

[sagira]

Will you share a link!!:D

 

 

Susan

 

I will! How could I forget? :)

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=zpQAAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=elementary+speller+wheeler&source=bl&ots=q_XVN5EwI8&sig=DXr7ERNyxV3nU8gXYoSxbWUz6Bw&hl=en&ei=6nC0TYKsI4nEgAe457DGCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

[mama25angels]

I was always under the impression that the younger set did grammar along with copywork, just not formal grammar, as in not as a separate subject.

[nova mama]

I will! How could I forget? :)

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=zpQAAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=elementary+speller+wheeler&source=bl&ots=q_XVN5EwI8&sig=DXr7ERNyxV3nU8gXYoSxbWUz6Bw&hl=en&ei=6nC0TYKsI4nEgAe457DGCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

Wow! What a great resource!! In what grade would you start this? Maybe a second grader, or advanced first grader?

[Diana B]

I got part of the way through CM's first book and other things came up. I really should read it again.

 

Cheap Chick has been sharing her thoughts and knowledge on CM over on her blog. Some awesome stuff. Helps to remember what kind of education system CM was coming out of in her writings.

 

http://www.homeschoolingonthecheap.com/cheapchickblog/archives/155

 

This is just one of the Cheap Chick blogs on CM. She's been mostly focusing on Language Arts - studied copywork and dictation, spelling, etc. There will be more to come, for sure!

 

We've worked our way through FLL2 and we are going to slow down and review and build on what we've done using copywork (and eventually dictation), and living books (like Ruth Heller's grammar books!).

[justamouse]

I agree with you and I want to add that CM is not unschooling.:)

 

:iagree: nor is it school "lite".

 

Faithe

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[mommix3]

Wow! What a great resource!! In what grade would you start this? Maybe a second grader, or advanced first grader?

 

:iagree: What a GREAT book!! Thank you SO much for the link. I'm going to use this over the summer for my soon to be 2nd grader. She will LOVE it. Thanks again.

[DawnL]

:lurk5:

[nansk]

The exercises are so very similar to what we're doing in R&S English 2, or to FLL!

 

MM,

 

At what age does CM say to start these grammar exercises?

[Amber in AUS]

:lurk5:

[Oops, duplicate account :/]

MM,

 

At what age does CM say to start these grammar exercises?

 

:bigear:"

[Joyofsixreboot]

I read CM's first book and thought I was dumb because I thought it sounded more in depth than what I was hearing CM described as. I thought I wasn't understanding but maybe I wasn't so far off.

[mom@shiloh]

Thanks for the link to the Wheeler book. I can see using this with my almost 2nd grader. My plan would be to use the AAS letter tiles with some of the lessons to make it more kinesthetic. For instance, the lesson where he says to add d, n and b to eck to make new words would work great with letter tiles.

 

Are there any more of these, or any other great, old, free books that I'm missing?

[Knittinfarmgirl]

:ohmy: I have apparently been very neglectful in learning what CM's method truly is. I admit that I only read some books about CM rather than spending time in her own works. These threads have really shown me that I need to dig into her writings.

 

I agree that CM's methods are much more rigorous than many people think. Two books that I'm using are Primary Language Lessons and Elementary Spelling. Both use copywork, dictation, and oral grammar and spelling exercises. The best part? ES is free on Google Books.

 

ES looks really great! That's going to be perfect for us! :thumbup: Thanks for sharing!

[Evergreen Academy]

We have, for many years in our homeschool, used Emma Serle's Language Lessons, both Primary and Intermediate. They are very similar to what you have described, and I have been told by a Charlotte Mason scholar that the method is very close to what she would have recommended. I haven't found these sweet little texts for free, but they're not expensive. Primary spans second and third grades, and Intermediate covers grades 4-6. My ds13 was very sad when he finished the last book and I believe he gained a lot from it.

 

The texts have been a big help to me in designing a CM education without having to reinvent the wheel, but I'd never read the lesson you posted - it is really reassuring! Thank you for sharing!

[Medieval Mom]

MM,

 

At what age does CM say to start these grammar exercises?

 

Good question! I re-read a bit in the book, but I can't answer definitively. The entire section is dealing with children ages 6-9. In the previous paragraph, she recommends a Latin grammar for children aged 8-9 (for those wishing to begin Latin that early).

 

So, somewhere between 6 and 9? Any CM expert out there to help?

 

I imagine, like everything else, we'd have to use our own best judgement about this :)

[stripe]

We have, for many years in our homeschool, used Emma Serle's Language Lessons, both Primary and Intermediate. They are very similar to what you have described, and I have been told by a Charlotte Mason scholar that the method is very close to what she would have recommended. I haven't found these sweet little texts for free, but they're not expensive.

ILL can be found on Google Books.

[Penelope]

 

I wonder where and how the break down occurred? Why is AO's scope and sequence so different the CM's?

 

I'm wondering what differences you see between AO and CM's writings?

 

I thought AO was meant to be a program as close to what CM and PNEU schools as possible. I had the impression that everything is there in Ambleside, but it is up to the parent to read the books and articles and implement it: the copywork, grammar, exams, all of it.

[stripe]

Mater Amabilis modeled itself after PNEU as well, and yet it is different from Ambleside Online. AO made it a big priority to use free materials as much as possible, so this is an additional goal that they have set for themselves. Other than that, I am certainly not qualified to say.

 

Here is what MA says on its website; I've always found this bit very interesting:

 

As we read and discussed Charlotte Mason style education we became aware that there is some confusion over what a Charlotte Mason education means. “CM” homeschooling is portrayed as everything from a relaxed, almost unschooling style, to a formal, structured method. We think this confusion can be resolved by dividing the different styles into two categories: CM structured and CM influenced education.

 

 

• A Charlotte Mason structured education attempts to follow the methodology set out in CM’s own writings as closely as possible. Children follow a set, formal course of study, using a highly efficient method which allows children to cover a broad range of subjects in the course of a short school day.
  
• A Charlotte Mason influenced education gleans ideas such as living books, narration, short lessons and nature study from CM and applies them to a range of different styles of education –“ a particular curriculum, literature based education, relaxed homeschooling or even unschooling.
  

 

Mater Amabilis presents a structured approach but the ideas here can be used or adapted as part of any CM influenced education.

[Whereneverever]

I'm wondering what differences you see between AO and CM's writings?

 

I thought AO was meant to be a program as close to what CM and PNEU schools as possible. I had the impression that everything is there in Ambleside, but it is up to the parent to read the books and articles and implement it: the copywork, grammar, exams, all of it.

Specifically, reading AOs S&S for LA vs. CM's actual expectations.

[Donna A.]

Boy, am I glad to see this thread! It's been bugging me for YEARS that CM is often accused of being an unschooler, "laid back", "relaxed", and other similar adjectives which simply aren't true. :glare:

 

Some of the breakdown may have come from Karen Andreola herself. She's written numerous books about CM and her ways, but I definitely get a more relaxed feel from Karen's books than I get from Miss Mason's own writings.

[sagira]

Wow! What a great resource!! In what grade would you start this? Maybe a second grader, or advanced first grader?

 

Yes, we're using this in second grade. It's working out great! Previously I had trouble with ds. He really thrives using this.

[ScoutTN]

Great thread! Thank you!

 

For those of you who have used Serle's PLL, did you begin in 2nd grade or 3rd? And what did you do in the year(s) before that?

 

Anyone like Serle's books better than FLL? Better than R&S?

[sagira]

Good question! I re-read a bit in the book, but I can't answer definitively. The entire section is dealing with children ages 6-9. In the previous paragraph, she recommends a Latin grammar for children aged 8-9 (for those wishing to begin Latin that early).

 

So, somewhere between 6 and 9? Any CM expert out there to help?

 

I imagine, like everything else, we'd have to use our own best judgement about this :)

 

My memory's a bit fuzzy now, as I read this a few years ago now, but I believe it was at 8 years old, in a gentle, but still effective way. I think the way it's presented makes sense to a child.

 

To answer the PP's question, yes, we started using PLL in 2nd grade. We're going to continue with this book in 3rd grade.

Edited April 25, 2011 by sagira

[Kfamily]

We started PLL in 2nd grade with both girls. My older dd did most of ILL as well. I had FLL and used most of it with my older dd too. PLL was mine and my dd's preference over FLL.

 

I've just started using Simply Grammar with my younger dd. This is a remake of CM's elementary grammar...very much like the exercises the op described.

 

I also just read recently too that CM felt that grammar would do well being introduced through latin grammar and this could be started as early as 8 or 9(For me, 2nd grade).

Edited April 25, 2011 by Kfamily

[stripe]

This thread is a treasure.

 

I have a printout of something that is titled

PNEU CURRICULUM

from Charlotte's Daughters

 

I downloaded it (53 pages of small print!) onto my computer, but I've also been able to access the PNEU curriculum through the "Wayback Machine" at archive.org.

 

I intend to go back over this, myself, and try to glean more insight into it. Ambleside has these from the PNEU.

Edited April 25, 2011 by stripe

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Before starting PLL in second grade, my boys used Webster's Speller and McGuffey primers and First Reader.

 

They did copywork and dictation from the reader, and oral narration from the literature I read to them.

 

We did the spelling on the chalkboard, or orally.

[Katydid]

Fabulous thread! I'm learning lots. :001_smile:

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Before starting PLL in second grade, my boys used Webster's Speller and McGuffey primers and First Reader.

 

They did copywork and dictation from the reader, and oral narration from the literature I read to them.

 

We did the spelling on the chalkboard, or orally.

 

(Edited to add: We continue with a Speller and McGuffey or Elson Readers along with PLL and ILL. Some of the boys use Rod and Staff instead of PLL/ILL, but they all use readers and speller.)