For All Who Freak Out About Math...Including Myself :)

[texasmama]

And, what do you do when you have started your child off "wrong", but you want to make it "right"?

 

Ex: 6th grader who only knows rote learning, and not the "why"'s. So what do we do, pick up SM or MM and start all over from the beginning? Has rote memorization set them up for failure in the high school years?

 

:001_huh:

 

My suggestion would be to have your child take the SM placement tests and figure out where he places, then start there. In my opinion (no expert here), you have time to remediate. I am 44 and am currently remediating myself in the conceptual math department.:tongue_smilie:

[Edwena]

As the original poster of this article, I in no way meant to start this kind of thread. I do not even use Math U See. We use Christian Light! :)

 

My only intent was to help encourage so many of us who totally FREAK out over finishing a certain workbook by May27th or switch math programs constantly or push our kids on through when they really need to slow down and understand what they are doing.

 

So sorry this turned into what it is.....it was posted with the best of intentions.

Honestly, the reason that you posted it seemed like the exact reason that Steve Demme wrote it. Also it seems to me what SpyCar says is what Demme is saying but just in a different way. Yes, Demme was being sarcastic in some of what he said, but sometimes us mothers needs that. KWIM? We get so caught up in the emotion of it all and aren't really thinking logically and he was being in the extreme to help calm some down.

 

Also wanted to say that I in no way thought that Demme was trying to promote his curriculum, the original e-mail is sent to those who've signed up for his e-mails. I honestly feel like he's a Christian man who loves his family and really wants children to understand Math. I also think SpyCar really wants children to understand Math as well. You two may have more in common than you think.;)

[jennynd]

Come'on, the board need some spice :D.

 

I enjoy to see the different opinion discuss, It is the beauty of the forum, and we are all adult and can make our own judgement,

 

 

 

As the original poster of this article, I in no way meant to start this kind of thread. I do not even use Math U See. We use Christian Light! :)

 

My only intent was to help encourage so many of us who totally FREAK out over finishing a certain workbook by May27th or switch math programs constantly or push our kids on through when they really need to slow down and understand what they are doing.

 

So sorry this turned into what it is.....it was posted with the best of intentions.

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

As the original poster of this article, I in no way meant to start this kind of thread. I do not even use Math U See. We use Christian Light! :)

 

My only intent was to help encourage so many of us who totally FREAK out over finishing a certain workbook by May27th or switch math programs constantly or push our kids on through when they really need to slow down and understand what they are doing.

 

So sorry this turned into what it is.....it was posted with the best of intentions.

 

I was blessed by it and don't use MUS either. I passed it on to another non-MuS user who was also blessed. :) Thanks again for sharing.

[kiana]

With respect to the multiplication as repeated addition ...

 

There are all kinds of things we teach kids that are true for what we're working with, but not true in general.

 

We teach them that you can't subtract a bigger number from a smaller number (until we get to negative numbers).

We teach them that you can't divide a smaller number by a bigger number (until we get to fractions).

We teach them that you can't square root a negative number (until they get to imaginary numbers).

We teach them that multiplication is commutative (until we get to matrix multiplication and the cross product).

 

There's a limit to how much sophistication you can provide at any given level. On the integers, the result of multiplication agrees precisely with the result of repeated addition. Even when we have a fraction multiplied by an integer, the result of multiplication still agrees precisely.

 

When we start to multiply a fraction by another fraction, this breaks down -- but it breaks down because it simply doesn't make sense to add something up one-half or five-sixteenths times. So we need to generalize the concept of multiplication so that we can multiply more things. But that doesn't mean that repeated addition wasn't a useful model to explain how multiplication works in the beginning.

[wapiti]

This one is pretty good (and I like it as stressing that we shouldn't ONLY teach multiplication as repeated addition). I also like the discussion of different number systems too.

 

Here's a response by Maria Miller.

 

I love this :)

 

Thank you! and I agree, this IS fun!! :)

[Spy Car]

Well, I just printed out his articles on why multiplication is not serial addition to read and highlight later. :glare: I am not a mathy person, so can you give me a couple of greater mathematical minds that can be easily understood?

 

Thanks. :)

 

 

Here is one rebuttal by WTMs own Myrtle, who I'm sure old timers recognize as one of the most brilliant members this forum has ever had.

 

http://myrtlehocklemeier.blogspot.com/2008/07/article-that-launched-thousand-posts.html

 

Bill

[joysworld]

Thanks for this. It bothers me too.

 

I think the trouble is that multiplication is introduced via serial addition. "We have 5 groups of 3, so instead of writing out 3+3+3+3+3 and making our hands tired, let's do a short cut and do 5x3, wee hee!"

 

What's wrong with this? My five almost six year old can do multiplication because of this connection, and he figured it out on his own.

 

One day during the Christmas season, I needed to get some shopping done at the mall. I informed all three of my kids that if they made good choices I would treat them to biscuits from Popeyes. We finished the shopping and were walking to the car; they had earned their biscuits. As we were walking, my son asked if each of them could have two biscuits. I said yes, and asked if each of them received two biscuits, then how many biscuits would I have to buy. He informed me that the answer was six, and then a light bulb went off. He said 'aha', as he usually does when he gets an idea. Then went on to inform me that three groups of two equals six. My jaw dropped. I told him that was correct, and that the way we read that is 2 times 3. Then I asked him what 2 times 5 was, and he quickly gave me the answer. I asked him a few more problems, and was simply stunned at his understanding and grasp of multiplication at age 5.

 

So again I ask, why is this wrong?

[H.S. Burrow]

This one is pretty good (and I like it as stressing that we shouldn't ONLY teach multiplication as repeated addition). I also like the discussion of different number systems too.

 

Here's a response by Maria Miller.

 

I love this :)

 

And then there's this that suggests Singapore bar models do deal with this some.

 

Here is one rebuttal by WTMs own Myrtle, who I'm sure old timers recognize as one of the most brilliant members this forum has ever had.

 

http://myrtlehocklemeier.blogspot.com/2008/07/article-that-launched-thousand-posts.html

 

Bill

 

Thank you!!

 

I had Myrtle's blog bookmarked on my old computer, but it died before I could move all my bookmarks. Many, many thanks for the reconnect to Myrtle's blog. :)

[wapiti]

Here is one rebuttal by WTMs own Myrtle, who I'm sure old timers recognize as one of the most brilliant members this forum has ever had.

 

http://myrtlehocklemeier.blogspot.com/2008/07/article-that-launched-thousand-posts.html

 

Bill

 

Thanks for this!!!

 

(She is the "old timer" with an answer key that I came across once upon a time, and there it is, the Gelfand that intrigued me, though the pdf link still doesn't work - I wonder what I'm doing wrong).

[nmoira]

Thanks for this!!!

 

(She is the "old timer" with an answer key that I came across once upon a time, and there it is, the Gelfand that intrigued me, though the pdf link still doesn't work - I wonder what I'm doing wrong).

I have the pdf. IIRC the solutions are public domain. Email me through the link from my profile if you'd like me to forward you the file.

[boscopup]

There are all kinds of things we teach kids that are true for what we're working with, but not true in general.

 

We teach them that you can't subtract a bigger number from a smaller number (until we get to negative numbers).

We teach them that you can't square root a negative number (until they get to imaginary numbers).

 

Actually, I haven't taught these.

 

When my son was 5, he said something about how you couldn't subtract a bigger number from a smaller number. I said "Yes, you can," and pulled out the number line and showed him negative numbers. A year later, he still remembers it. Today, we were officially learning subtracting with regrouping, and I had to say "You can't subtract 7 from 5... without going negative." It wasn't that hard to work around it.

 

One of our conversations one time got into square roots and he tried to find the square root of a negative number, so I briefly explained "i", though he probably doesn't remember that. He didn't understand it quite as well as he understood negative numbers. He can add and subtract negative numbers all day. He just moves up and down the number line in his head, I guess!

 

Anyway, I do teach multiplication via "2 x 3 is 2 groups of 3 or 3 groups of 2", and that's how my son figured it out on his own. I do prefer to go ahead and teach things as they are, not teach one rule and then change it later on. You *can* subtract 7 from 5, and that's actually fairly easy to explain in simple terms that a younger elementary student can understand.

 

When we get to division, I'll do similar to the subtraction thing... "You can't divide 5 by 7 without making a fraction". Easy enough. Multiplication... I gotta remember matrix multiplication... it's been a LONG while since I did that :lol:.

[Paintedlady]

Mr Demme undoubtedly wrote this to his target audience, which likely includes a good number of parents who have children who have struggled with math.

 

So is this what those parents need to hear:

 

Now if you have an 18 year old that is still counting on his fingers I recommend you consult a learning specialist to determine if there is a problem.

 

Is 18 really when a parent should look to see if there are learning difficulties? I doubt the author even believes it--so why say it?

 

Bill

 

Have you never heard of saying something in jest? I don't think he meant it literally.

[coralloyd]

Thank you for the other nice words.

 

I hope you don't mind if I pick up on the one word "push" and launch into a discussion that almost certainly deviates from what you mean by the term, so bear with me here.

 

When I hear "push" it makes me think of using developmentally inappropriate means to teach things that children are not ready to learn yet (at least in that fashion). It is not about the "content" of what is being taught, but "how" that content is being taught. And, using this definition, "pushing" is a bad thing.

 

The key (to me) when teaching math, among other subjects, is to really understand what a child comprehends, what they do not comprehend, and what they need to know to be able to reach an understanding of things they are having a problem with (even if this goes back to learning precursor skills) and how a parent/teacher can frame the concepts that a child is struggling

with in terms they are most likely to understand (which includeds deviating from a curiculmn prescribed method when it clearly is not working).

 

My impression of Steve Demme (from my very limited exposure to his MUS materials) is that he believes the same thing. I have always been impressed from the overview MUS video that he has a gift for making things simple for a child to understand. I don't think MUS would have been a good fit for us, I question the scope and sequence as being what I would choose as a "standard" but have always valued that there is a program of this sort for

children who need (or would thrive best using) this sort of method.

 

If and when a child has difficultly understanding a concept I believe it is wise to address those misunderstanding poste haste rather than assuming the child will "get it" two years from now. For me that means looking at the method and meeting the child on their level in terms of how material is taught and learned, with an eye towards having break-throughs in areas of difficulty.

 

 

That does not mean every child has to be in the same place. I have no doubt that Mr Demme has helped many children learn math, and that his program has been particularly valuable for children who may not have succeeded with alternative methods.

 

 

I don't know if he wrote the linked article (or not) but I do not think his words were not well-chosen nor the message a positive one. Saying where in the Bible does it say children need to do algebra (as if today most children don't need to) strikes me as a very strange thing to say. And omitting the need to take positive action when a child is "behind" is to my mind not the thing people need to hear (or not hear).

 

 

On the other hand, accepting our children for who they are and not making ourselves crazy with guilt about where they are in relation to other children is

a good thing. I'm sure that at the end of the day there would be a great deal of common ground.

 

Sorry for using your post as a launching pad. I hope you have good success finding the the right means of turning on lightbulbs with your child.

 

I appreciate the kind words, as I actually am a human being with feelings.

 

Bill

 

 

 

He never said the bolded. What he said was," I often diffuse this by asking what the scripture reference is that determines what age a student must be to take Algebra 1 or Geometry or begin studying fractions. Is it in 1st Hezekiah or 2nd Assumptions? There is often a pause, then a light begins to dawn, and the look of consternation from wrongly surmising their child is behind, is replaced with a look of relief when they realize he is right where he needs to be." You took him out of context. He even says that he uses this to diffuse the situation. It is meant light heartedly.

 

 

This article was written to MUS users or those interested in MUS. To those of

us who understand his humor, and know his desire is to see our kids succeed. This is more than obvious to those of us who receive his emails on a regular

basis, and watch him teach our kids each week. :chillpill: people.

[Spy Car]

So is Steve Demme being serious or is he joking when he says:

 

I often diffuse this by asking what the scripture reference is that determines what age a student must be to take Algebra 1 or Geometry or begin studying fractions. Is it in 1st Hezekiah or 2nd Assumptions? There is often a pause, then a light begins to dawn, and the look of consternation from wrongly surmising their child is behind, is replaced with a look of relief when they realize he is right where he needs to be.

 

Does he mean it is the parents who are always "wrong" when they worry their child may be "behind" and that children are always where they are supposed to be? Is this what he really believes?

 

Is he serious or is he joking when he says:

 

Perhaps the root problem is not the student, but an insecure parent?

 

Is he really going to blame concerned parents if they perceive that there is a problem with their children's math education? Or is this supposed to be "funny?"

 

Is he serious or is he joking when he says:

 

Please let your children move at their own pace and not some man made standard from one of the worst math nations on the planet, the good old USA.

 

So we are not to "worry" if children are "behind" the standards of "one of the worst math nations in the world"? Why?

 

Because those are "man made" standards???

 

Again is this a joke, or is he serious?

 

What about when he says:

 

Protect your children, those precious individuals that God has placed in your care, from state imposed guidelines and raise them and train them in the way they should go.

 

So you "protect" your children by having them do more poorly than the standards of one of the worst math nations of the world, and blame the parents as the problem if they question the premise, because they are "insecure"? He must be joking!

 

He want to save children from the horrible math standards "imposed" by the state (by not meeting them) presumable because God has them were "they need be", which might be "failing," but let's not call it that because they are where they are supposed to be? Says who?

 

Who says they "need" to be struggling? Or need to be failing? This is fatalism at it's worst.

 

Maybe the whole thing is meant as a big laugh. I'm not finding it that funny.

 

More tragic. Deeply tragic.

 

Bill.

Edited April 22, 2011 by Spy Car

[stripe]

With respect to the multiplication as repeated addition ...

 

There are all kinds of things we teach kids that are true for what we're working with, but not true in general.

 

We teach them that you can't subtract a bigger number from a smaller number (until we get to negative numbers).

We teach them that you can't divide a smaller number by a bigger number (until we get to fractions).

We teach them that you can't square root a negative number (until they get to imaginary numbers).

We teach them that multiplication is commutative (until we get to matrix multiplication and the cross product).

 

There's a limit to how much sophistication you can provide at any given level. On the integers, the result of multiplication agrees precisely with the result of repeated addition. Even when we have a fraction multiplied by an integer, the result of multiplication still agrees precisely.

 

My general rule in life is not to teach things that I must undo later. This goes for teaching math, reading, religion, and virtually everything else. I may not get into detail, but I don't misrepresent. I have never told my kids anything about the impossibility of taking a larger number away from a smaller number, for example. I have a small child who loves negative numbers. (And MEP talks about them in Y1.) I loathe "When two vowels go walking, one does the talking!" I try to specify for what group it is impossible or not done. For example, you cannot divide an odd whole number in half and get a whole number. Even small kids know you can break things into pieces. I have a young child who likes to chant funny equations just because they sound funny (1+2=3, 3+4=5, ...). So when the older sibling made fun of "7+7=7" as nonsense, I explained modular numbers. They're what we use for clocks, so they understood the idea.

 

My objection is the idea that it is only repeated addition, but it may be that I haven't implied it is. Although, in retrospect, I am going I may not have done well on the preparation for non-Euclidian geometries....I am going to have to try to remember what I said about "parallel." I knew about Klein bottles and Möbius strips at a young age. (Thanks, Mom.) I just like the idea of talking about the implications of how we teach things.

 

Thanks for the link to Myrtle's article. I miss her.

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

You are reading this all wrong. Firstly, you're trying to apply universally what was never intended to be. No one can fairly put such expectation on any human. The article was written for a particular audience (and we of that audience were encouraged by it) and those with real problems are presumed (rightly or wrongly) to know they are not being addressed here (and plenty of us got that clearly).

 

Secondly - the standards. Possibly a poor choice of wording but you know what, he's human. One must take that into account when interpreting anyone and leave room for error. The scope and sequence of the USA is poor. I thought there had been enough discussion on these topics to have established that here. I thought there had been all this talk about how, although US math teachers may have higher math education they are frequently not better than foreign teachers with lower math education but actually GET that "lower math". I mean really .. what forum have I been reading? Who is the Liping Ma expert here? The US needs to obviously raise their standards so "standards" was poor wording but the core of what he is communicating is not off base. Or maybe it wasn't so poor -- who wants to judge their success on these poor standards? Obviously we want better and that, quite frankly, is going to require a different scope and sequence for many children (deduced from the high rate of children in the PS system who just never GET it).

 

The children may not "meet the standard" at the "expected time" (not unlike most of the children IN the system) but they WILL surpass it in time if the child is learning at their pace and not being moved on just to "keep up" -- it's that moving on just to "keep up" that is one of the big causes of so much math failure (besides curriculum .. and a falling standard in some areas). It was a PS math teacher that shared this reality with me from her own classroom experience.

 

Perhaps part of the problem here is that things are so different in different areas of the country? Some places have plummeting standards (with some idea that noone can really get math) while others are expecting crazy things out of Kindergarteners. Please keep that in mind when reading someone else on the topic.

 

So is Steve Demme being serious or is he joking when he says:

 

I often diffuse this by asking what the scripture reference is that determines what age a student must be to take Algebra 1 or Geometry or begin studying fractions. Is it in 1st Hezekiah or 2nd Assumptions? There is often a pause, then a light begins to dawn, and the look of consternation from wrongly surmising their child is behind, is replaced with a look of relief when they realize he is right where he needs to be.

 

Does he mean it is the parents who are always "wrong" when they worry their child may be "behind" and that children are always where they are supposed to be? Is this what he really believes?

 

Is he serious or is he joking when he says:

 

Perhaps the root problem is not the student, but an insecure parent?

 

Is he really going to blame concerned parents if they perceive that there is a problem with their children's math education? Or is this supposed to be "funny?"

 

Is he serious or is he joking when he says:

 

Please let your children move at their own pace and not some man made standard from one of the worst math nations on the planet, the good old USA.

 

So we are not to "worry" if children are "behind" the standards of "one of the worst math nations in the world"? Why?

 

Because those are "man made" standards???

 

Again is this a joke, or is he serious?

 

What about when he says:

 

Protect your children, those precious individuals that God has placed in your care, from state imposed guidelines and raise them and train them in the way they should go.

 

So you "protect" your children by having them do more poorly than the standards of one of the worst math nations of the world, and blame the parents as the problem if they question the premise, because they are "insecure"? He must be joking!

 

He want to save children from the horrible math standards "imposed" by the state (by not meeting them) presumable because God has them were "they need be", which might be "failing," but let's not call it that because they are where they are supposed to be? Says who?

 

Who says they "need" to be struggling? Or need to be failing? This is fatalism at it's worst.

 

Maybe the whole thing is meant as a big laugh. I'm not finding it that funny.

 

More tragic. Deeply tragic.

 

Bill.

[mom2denj]

Give me a break, Bill.

 

Sometimes it is just nice to hear someone say CHILL, take a deep breath. Your kids will be okay even if they can't do algebra in 7th grade. I was thankful for it this morning. No worries, I'm sure you'll be happy to know I'll return to fretting over my children's math progress within 24 hours. I rarely find that posts of encouragement last as long in my emotional bank as ranting comments about parents being complacent about their children's education.

:iagree:

[Lovedtodeath]

I thought that mentioning the scripture was :001_huh:. Yes we can form a biblical opinion of nearly everything by learning the principles behind what was written without a specific scripture.

The children may not "meet the standard" at the "expected time" (not unlike most of the children IN the system) but they WILL surpass it in time if the child is learning at their pace and not being moved on just to "keep up" -- it's that moving on just to "keep up" that is one of the big causes of so much math failure (besides curriculum .. and a falling standard in some areas). It was a PS math teacher that shared this reality with me from her own classroom experience.

:iagree:I didn't get the feeling from that article that we should twiddle our thumbs and allow our children to stagnate. I got the idea that we should keep moving at their level.

 

 

 

DD and I don't do well at mastery programs though, including MUS and AAS when we tried them. I always feel like she is never doing good enough to move on. I am too much of a perfectionist. That ends up holding her back when she doesn't need to be. I do worry that articles like this encourage that type of behavior.

Edited April 22, 2011 by Lovedtodeath

[Spy Car]

Thanks for the link to Myrtle's article. I miss her.

 

I miss her too.

 

Directly attributable to having read Liping Ma, I've been scrupulous to add a disclaimer about "without making negative numbers" to discussions about subtraction problems where the value of the place of the subtrahend is greater than that of the minuend, and say we will re-group for computational convenience.

 

Eventually, of course, this did lead to: What are negative numbers?

 

So we took a little time and worked on understanding what negative numbers mean. He even tried them out as a strategy in problem solving.

 

So with an equation like 12-8 he figured 2-Units minus 8-Units was -6, and remainin 10 plus -6 was 4. A few times like that and I think he saw why we re-group for convenience :D

 

Bill

[OnTheBrink]

I've always said that if you want to see a homeschool catfight break out in nanoseconds, bring up the subject of math. :lol:

 

We started using MUS at the Delta (?) level. It's been a god-send for my dd. First, the lessons are short and to the point; second, the pages are clean and not cluttered (she has issues with visual clutter); and it doesn't jump around, yet continually reviews concepts.

 

And, frankly, I do take more to heart suggestions and opinions from those who've been there over those who are just starting out but are loaded with research. In my world, the practicum trumps the theory. Not to say the inexperienced can't have an opinion and share it; certainly they may. There will always be someone with less experience than they have and they can certainly be encouraging to those who follow. For me, though: Show me the money, not the potential earnings. ;)

[In2why]

your name says it all...and I agree. I want my child to get it thoroughly before we move on, and so I choose mastery-based programs.

 

My primary struggle (and I'll wager that I am not alone in this) is often pride, i.e. will I look incompetent if my child is "behind" where the ps or other super-bright hs-ers are in their studies...but that's my problem, isn't it!? :tongue_smilie:

 

 

I really needed to hear this today! I hadn't really thought about the pride aspect of some of my decisions. Food for thought.

[DarlaS]

Mr Demme undoubtedly wrote this to his target audience, which likely includes a good number of parents who have children who have struggled with math.

 

So is this what those parents need to hear:

 

Now if you have an 18 year old that is still counting on his fingers I recommend you consult a learning specialist to determine if there is a problem.

 

Is 18 really when a parent should look to see if there are learning difficulties? I doubt the author even believes it--so why say it?

 

Bill

 

I think you need to give homeschooling moms a little more credit. We're not a bunch of literal-minded Amelia Bedelia types.

 

I'm married to someone who makes these kinds of over-the-top statements, so not for one second did I take Mr. Demme literally. I don't think anyone else with more than a couple brain cells would either.

 

We're also not followers to the extent that we're going to let a kid struggle with addition until they're 18. Do you really think anyone is going to do that just because they read that article? Really??

 

It's just the way he writes. Clearly his point would have gotten across better in speech where a facial expression or a chuckle would have made the fact that he was exaggerating more obvious. If he were an author, I would not likely read his books as casual writing gets on my nerves (one reason I can't read Dave Barry). Still, I know what he meant.

[Edwena]

I'm sorry, but I would think with all the talk in the past several weeks about how SWB was being attacked, then everyone would be careful about not attacking other curriculum providers. I guess I just feel like Mr. Demme is a man who is trying to help others and it's not right to question his motives to say it's to promote his curriculum, etc. Honestly, if you really want to know exactly what he meant, send him an e-mail and ask rather than assuming and making projections about what he did say. Why does this have to be so controversial? :confused: It was a help to some and those who it wasn't, just let it die. You know kind of like when you go to a buffet. You take what you want, but don't spit on the other food that you don't like. You leave it for those who like it. It really does sadden me how unkind people are being.:sad:

[Spy Car]

I think you need to give homeschooling moms a little more credit. We're not a bunch of literal-minded Amelia Bedelia types.

 

I'm married to someone who makes these kinds of over-the-top statements, so not for one second did I take Mr. Demme literally. I don't think anyone else with more than a couple brain cells would either.

 

I did mention in every post that I knew he must be being "facetious" or otherwise didn't actually believe what he was saying. I wonder why he is saying things he does not believe in this context as it isn't "funny."

 

And I enumerated a series of other (to me) strange statements in this article that I don't know how to read. Is he "serious" or "not serious" about blaming parents who worry their children may be "behind" for being (in his words) "insecure."

 

Are students who are struggling really "where they need to be?" Is it part of God's plan for them they that have difficulties with math. Is that a serious opinion, or is that a "joke." I can't tell.

 

Where in the article does he offer "positive advice" for parents who might want to remediate problems, other than extending high school until the age of twenty?

 

If the "wait until children are 18 to look for learning difficulties" comment was in a different context it might just seem like a very failed attempt at "humor" but what is serious in this article?

 

Don't worry about the standards "imposed" by the State, because those are "man made" standards? Is that serious or a joke.

 

One does not need to be Amelia Belilia to be confused about what is to be taken literally here.

 

 

 

Bill

Edited April 22, 2011 by Spy Car

[Paintedlady]

For those people who have never had a child who struggles, or enough experience in life to know someone else with a child who struggles, then what Mr. Demme is saying just won't make sense to you I guess. I have a hard time believing that his words really need to be broken down to extract their meaning unless you just can't conceive of a child who doesn't understand things at the same level as other kids.

 

I have one kid who I never taught to read, not explicitly anyway. Since he was a toddler he's been interested in how to read, how to figure things out. He's always been a little bit "ahead" in math. He memorizes quickly. He's someone who, if evaluated, would be considered "bright." Other than being as stubborn as a mule, he's easy to teach. If he were my only kid, maybe I couldn't grasp what Mr. Demme is saying either (but I doubt it).

 

I have another kid who never showed an interest in any kind of learning. She simply wouldn't participate in singing the ABC's, wouldn't play counting games, etc... Even before kindergarten and first grade in the public school, you could tell something wasn't right. She didn't understand what the other kids understood. She couldn't grasp the concepts other kids grasped easily. If evaluated, she'd be considered LD.

 

Being the mother to this child makes you stay up at night. You worry about her. You fear for her. You search for endless hours, days, weeks & years for the solution that unlocks her mind. You work diligently every day. Sitting by her side and explaining over and over and over and over. What my other child understood after a simple explanation and a bit of review, this child is still struggling to grasp years later. Her mind works differently. She eventually gets it, but not until your mind has long since gone numb with the effort of not losing your patience. After all, every other kid her age can do it! And now, not only am losing sleep and worrying over my kid, now I'm obsessing because she's behind.

 

Which is where Mr. Demme steps in. You see, he can soothe my frayed nerves because he's also a dad who's lost sleep at night over his kids. In fact he's got a kid with Down's Syndrome. Now here is a experienced dad who also happens to be very good at what he does, and he gets it. He can advise me. He can hold my hand through the dark places I must walk before I can release my child into the world. He knows the struggle because he's lived it. Not read books about it, but actually lived it.

 

Mr. Demme is not advocating that I relax the standards of what my child should be learning, but he understands that some kids can't learn at the same pace as others and is trying to soothe the parents. "Relax, they'll get there at their own pace." he says. "It's ok if they don't do fractions at ten. Keep trying and hopefully they'll get by the time they're twelve." Wow, what a relief it is to know that as long as I'm doing my best and she's doing her best, that it'll be okay.

 

The standards that have been set by the state are meant for the average kid. Some kids will fly past them and that's great. They learn more easily than the average kid. But there's another end to that spectrum. There are kids like mine who can't learn as fast as the average kid, and that's okay too. So maybe my kid needs extra time and extra effort but it's okay.

 

I'm so relieved to hear this from someone who not only is successfully running a business that specializes in math, but has raised four children into adulthood, even one with Down's Syndrome, and has perspective from his years and wisdom to pass down to those of us who aren't there yet.

 

Thank you Mr. Demme for helping to allay my fears. When others who can't possibly understand what it's like criticize parents like us for not having our kids meet the same standards as theirs, you come along and put my fears to rest.

[Spy Car]

I'm sorry, but I would think with all the talk in the past several weeks about how SWB was being attacked, then everyone would be careful about not attacking other curriculum providers. I guess I just feel like Mr. Demme is a man who is trying to help others and it's not right to question his motives to say it's to promote his curriculum, etc. Honestly, if you really want to know exactly what he meant, send him an e-mail and ask rather than assuming and making projections about what he did say. Why does this have to be so controversial? :confused: It was a help to some and those who it wasn't, just let it die. You know kind of like when you go to a buffet. You take what you want, but don't spit on the other food that you don't like. You leave it for those who like it. It really does sadden me how unkind people are being.:sad:

 

The problem Edwena is that there are a number of "home schooling gurus" who advance a "better late than early" philosophy, or a "children can teach themselves with a stack of flashcards and next-to-no parental involvement" curriculums, and this often leads to disastrous results.

 

I had never thought Steve Demme was in this camp, and had thought (without being any expert on the matter) that the MUS program might be especially valuable for children who were struggling with other methods, and felt positively about both Steve Demme and MUS in that regard.

 

The message of this article, however, strikes me as profoundly unhelpful. Worse than unhelpful. If children have problem then "time" does not magically fix those problems. Those who take on the responsibility of education have a duty to act IMO. There was nothing in the article on this vital front.

 

There are some "gurus" (not Demme) who believe the greatest kindness you can do a child is hand them a Saxon math book and refuse to answer their questions, and make them figure it out themselves no matter how long it takes them.

 

This is the kind og thing we deal with in the home education field. Unfortunately.

 

So there is a context for objection when the advice to parents is that struggling student are "where they need to be." Maybe they don't really "need" to be failing. Maybe there are other alternatives.

 

Bill

Edited April 22, 2011 by Spy Car
Typos

[LoveBaby]

I did mention in every post that I knew he must be being "facetious" or otherwise didn't actually believe what he was saying. I wonder why he is saying things he does not believe in this context as it isn't "funny."

 

And I enumerated a series of other (to me) strange statements in this article that I don't know how to read. Is he "serious" or "not serious" about blaming parents who worry their children may be "behind" for being (in his words) "insecure."

 

Are students who are struggling really "where they need to be?" Is it part of God's plan for them they that have difficulties with math. Is that a serious opinion, or is that a "joke." I can't tell.

 

Where in the article does he offer "positive advice" for parents who might want to remediate problems, other than extending high school until the age of twenty?

 

If the "wait until children are 18 to look for learning difficulties" comment was in a different context it might just seem like a very failed attempt at "humor" but what is serious in this article?

 

Don't worry about the standards "imposed" by the State, because those are "man made" standards? Is that serious or a joke.

 

One does not need to be Amelia Belilia to be confused about what is to be taken literally here.

 

Bill

 

That's just it, Bill. We don't need him to point out where we can get more information about how to help our children. There are more than enough places to get *more* information. Obviously the WTM forum is an excellent place to start. If there is one fault of nearly every. single. homeschool parent I know, is that we have more than enough information to homeschool/parent entire city blocks. What I have also noticed with a large majority of homeschool parents I know, is that we often lose sleep on doing things perfectly, the right way, the first time without any error. The extra information we have becomes paralyzing, not helpful.

 

Quick notes of encouragement like the one sent by Mr. Demme might just be that, quick notes of encouragement to many homeschool parents that are emailing him in the middle of the night in tears because they fear they aren't doing right by their children and they are single-handedly relegating their children to a life of "less than perfectness" because they struggled picking up multiplication in 3rd grade. Let's not assume that this is in fact a ploy to sell more math books and that his motivations were something other than just being encouraging.

 

I get that there are those cases where parents may languish too long in the "he'll get it eventually" category, but I think those cases are in the minority, since many, many of the posts here by a large number of homeschool parents indicate otherwise - they do worry, they are constantly looking for ways to help their children and they are doing the very best that *they* can with *their* children.

 

*I* am making the decisions for what/when/how I am teaching subjects. That is *my* responsibility and it is nice to have some encouragement that just because it doesn't look like my local PS scope & sequence, that doesn't make it wrong/bad/less than perfect.

 

As for your math methods, they do sound really great and it sounds like you have put a lot of time and effort into creating an incredible math environment for your son. However, what I think needs to be remembered is that you created this environment because of your unique personality for your sons unique personality. It only works the way it works because you bring a unique perspective to the situation. Even if I used all the same materials and read the same books, it would look different in my homeschool. Unfortunately, when you start discussing math used in *your* school, there are many that start to doubt and worry themselves over what is done in *their* homeschool.

 

What we all need to remember, IMO, is that we are all homeschooling *our* children in the way that we best know how...that someone else's method or way of doing things works in their home, because it is *their* home with *their* children and it is not necessarily going to work in *our* home with *our* children - and that doesn't make it good/bad, just different!

[Jen500]

For those people who have never had a child who struggles, or enough experience in life to know someone else with a child who struggles, then what Mr. Demme is saying just won't make sense to you I guess. I have a hard time believing that his words really need to be broken down to extract their meaning unless you just can't conceive of a child who doesn't understand things at the same level as other kids.

 

I have one kid who I never taught to read, not explicitly anyway. Since he was a toddler he's been interested in how to read, how to figure things out. He's always been a little bit "ahead" in math. He memorizes quickly. He's someone who, if evaluated, would be considered "bright." Other than being as stubborn as a mule, he's easy to teach. If he were my only kid, maybe I couldn't grasp what Mr. Demme is saying either (but I doubt it).

 

I have another kid who never showed an interest in any kind of learning. She simply wouldn't participate in singing the ABC's, wouldn't play counting games, etc... Even before kindergarten and first grade in the public school, you could tell something wasn't right. She didn't understand what the other kids understood. She couldn't grasp the concepts other kids grasped easily. If evaluated, she'd be considered LD.

 

Being the mother to this child makes you stay up at night. You worry about her. You fear for her. You search for endless hours, days, weeks & years for the solution that unlocks her mind. You work diligently every day. Sitting by her side and explaining over and over and over and over. What my other child understood after a simple explanation and a bit of review, this child is still struggling to grasp years later. Her mind works differently. She eventually gets it, but not until your mind has long since gone numb with the effort of not losing your patience. After all, every other kid her age can do it! And now, not only am losing sleep and worrying over my kid, now I'm obsessing because she's behind.

 

Which is where Mr. Demme steps in. You see, he can soothe my frayed nerves because he's also a dad who's lost sleep at night over his kids. In fact he's got a kid with Down's Syndrome. Now here is a experienced dad who also happens to be very good at what he does, and he gets it. He can advise me. He can hold my hand through the dark places I must walk before I can release my child into the world. He knows the struggle because he's lived it. Not read books about it, but actually lived it.

 

Mr. Demme is not advocating that I relax the standards of what my child should be learning, but he understands that some kids can't learn at the same pace as others and is trying to soothe the parents. "Relax, they'll get there at their own pace." he says. "It's ok if they don't do fractions at ten. Keep trying and hopefully they'll get by the time they're twelve." Wow, what a relief it is to know that as long as I'm doing my best and she's doing her best, that it'll be okay.

 

The standards that have been set by the state are meant for the average kid. Some kids will fly past them and that's great. They learn more easily than the average kid. But there's another end to that spectrum. There are kids like mine who can't learn as fast as the average kid, and that's okay too. So maybe my kid needs extra time and extra effort but it's okay.

 

I'm so relieved to hear this from someone who not only is successfully running a business that specializes in math, but has raised four children into adulthood, even one with Down's Syndrome, and has perspective from his years and wisdom to pass down to those of us who aren't there yet.

 

Thank you Mr. Demme for helping to allay my fears. When others who can't possibly understand what it's like criticize parents like us for not having our kids meet the same standards as theirs, you come along and put my fears to rest.

 

Carrie, are you saying that MUS was designed for kids with learning disabilities? This is a genuine question...I have never looked at MUS and so I don't have any opinion on it one way or the other.

I also was confused by his bible quotes. I have no idea if he was kidding or not. Some people take the bible literally.

[Lovedtodeath]

For those people who have never had a child who struggles, or enough experience in life to know someone else with a child who struggles, then what Mr. Demme is saying just won't make sense to you I guess. I have a hard time believing that his words really need to be broken down to extract their meaning unless you just can't conceive of a child who doesn't understand things at the same level as other kids.

 

I have one kid who I never taught to read, not explicitly anyway. Since he was a toddler he's been interested in how to read, how to figure things out. He's always been a little bit "ahead" in math. He memorizes quickly. He's someone who, if evaluated, would be considered "bright." Other than being as stubborn as a mule, he's easy to teach. If he were my only kid, maybe I couldn't grasp what Mr. Demme is saying either (but I doubt it).

 

I have another kid who never showed an interest in any kind of learning. She simply wouldn't participate in singing the ABC's, wouldn't play counting games, etc... Even before kindergarten and first grade in the public school, you could tell something wasn't right. She didn't understand what the other kids understood. She couldn't grasp the concepts other kids grasped easily. If evaluated, she'd be considered LD.

 

Being the mother to this child makes you stay up at night. You worry about her. You fear for her. You search for endless hours, days, weeks & years for the solution that unlocks her mind. You work diligently every day. Sitting by her side and explaining over and over and over and over. What my other child understood after a simple explanation and a bit of review, this child is still struggling to grasp years later. Her mind works differently. She eventually gets it, but not until your mind has long since gone numb with the effort of not losing your patience. After all, every other kid her age can do it! And now, not only am losing sleep and worrying over my kid, now I'm obsessing because she's behind.

 

Which is where Mr. Demme steps in. You see, he can soothe my frayed nerves because he's also a dad who's lost sleep at night over his kids. In fact he's got a kid with Down's Syndrome. Now here is a experienced dad who also happens to be very good at what he does, and he gets it. He can advise me. He can hold my hand through the dark places I must walk before I can release my child into the world. He knows the struggle because he's lived it. Not read books about it, but actually lived it.

 

Mr. Demme is not advocating that I relax the standards of what my child should be learning, but he understands that some kids can't learn at the same pace as others and is trying to soothe the parents. "Relax, they'll get there at their own pace." he says. "It's ok if they don't do fractions at ten. Keep trying and hopefully they'll get by the time they're twelve." Wow, what a relief it is to know that as long as I'm doing my best and she's doing her best, that it'll be okay.

 

The standards that have been set by the state are meant for the average kid. Some kids will fly past them and that's great. They learn more easily than the average kid. But there's another end to that spectrum. There are kids like mine who can't learn as fast as the average kid, and that's okay too. So maybe my kid needs extra time and extra effort but it's okay.

 

I'm so relieved to hear this from someone who not only is successfully running a business that specializes in math, but has raised four children into adulthood, even one with Down's Syndrome, and has perspective from his years and wisdom to pass down to those of us who aren't there yet.

 

Thank you Mr. Demme for helping to allay my fears. When others who can't possibly understand what it's like criticize parents like us for not having our kids meet the same standards as theirs, you come along and put my fears to rest.

That was beautiful.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

The problem Edwena is that there are a number of "home schooling gurus" who advance a "better late than early" philosophy, or a "children can teach themselves with a stack of flashcards and next-to-no parental involvement" curriculums, and this often leads to disastrous results.

 

I had never thought Steve Demme was in this camp, and had though (without being any expert on the matter) that the MUS program might be especially valuable for children who were struggling with other methods, and felt positively about both Steve Demme and MUS in that regard.

 

The message of this article, however, strikes me as profoundly unhelpful. Worse than unhelpful. If children have problem then "time" does not magically fix those problems. Those who take on the responsibility of education have a duty to act IMO. There was nothing in the article on this vital front.

 

There are some "gurus" (not Demme) who believe the greatest kindness you can do a child is had them a Saxon math book and refuse to answer their questions, and make them figure it out themselves no matter how long it takes them.

 

This is the kind og thing we deal with in the home education field. Unfortunately.

 

So there is a context for objection when the advice to parents is that struggling student are "where they need to be." Maybe they don't really "need" to be failing. Maybe there are other alternatives.

 

Bill

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

I am sorry for the way you have been treated by some here:(. I did not see you as attacking MUS at all but simply questioning the article written as linked by the OP.

 

I think his statements were unhelpful since there are some homeschoolers, not all, who subscribe to better late than never or "Don't worry they will catch on eventually." I have heard of one too many homeschoolers who have fell through the cracks due to lack of due diligence on the part of parents IMO. I do believe that does not apply to most here on this forum:). I do agree that every child is different though but I think every parent must be vigilant that there child masters the necessary skills to be successful in life.

 

My 2 cents:)

[shinyhappypeople]

Late to the party and I've only read the first couple of pages,so maybe this has been discussed, but... perhaps we're misunderstanding him. When I read the article the impression I got was not "Just slack off, because math doesn't matter." It was more along the lines of, "Some kids learn math at a slower pace than others and might be considered "behind" by some. Some kids even need to go back and re-learn early topics. It's okay. Just relax. Keep making slow and steady progress and in the end it won't matter if it took your child a couple of extra years to master what he or she needs to know."

[Paintedlady]

Carrie, are you saying that MUS was designed for kids with learning disabilities? This is a genuine question...I have never looked at MUS and so I don't have any opinion on it one way or the other.

I also was confused by his bible quotes. I have no idea if he was kidding or not. Some people take the bible literally.

 

I'm have no idea who it was designed for, LD or not. I remember him saying that he was able to teach his son, who has DS, using MUS, but I don't know that it was designed for that. Both of my kids use MUS, both the above and below average learners and I think it's been working beautifully.

[Lovedtodeath]

Late to the party and I've only read the first couple of pages,so maybe this has been discussed, but... perhaps we're misunderstanding him. When I read the article the impression I got was not "Just slack off, because math doesn't matter." It was more along the lines of, "Some kids learn math at a slower pace than others and might be considered "behind" by some. Some kids even need to go back and re-learn early topics. It's okay. Just relax. Keep making slow and steady progress and in the end it won't matter if it took your child a couple of extra years to master what he or she needs to know."

:iagree:

[Spock]

Carrie, are you saying that MUS was designed for kids with learning disabilities? This is a genuine question...I have never looked at MUS and so I don't have any opinion on it one way or the other.

I also was confused by his bible quotes. I have no idea if he was kidding or not. Some people take the bible literally.

 

Second Hezekiah and First Assumptions are not real Bible books. That was meant as a gentle reminder that there is no "Commandment from on High" that math skills/concepts have to be taught at a particular age to any particular child.

Edited April 22, 2011 by Spock

[FFkm]

:iagree:

 

Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed today.

 

Bill's post was thoughtful, insightful, and positive, and you're attributing that to grumpiness because you don't agree with him? Perhaps we can take the time out to be just as thoughtful in our replies to a serious discussion.

 

That being said, "If you have an 18 year old that is still counting on his fingers I recommend you consult a learning specialist to determine if there is a problem" was probably just the author's way to remind us to pay attention to how much our children are struggling (if at all). However, I agree with what Bill said that state guidelines are put in place as a measure to keep our children on track, and that they aren't there as a purely arbitrary timeline. I mean, we're just as free to encourage our accelerated learners as much as we are free to slow down with our children who need a little more time to absorb concepts (particularly with math, since each new levels builds on the preceding). And, to be fair, Bill wasn't being completely black and white about what he was saying, anyway. He was agreeing that there is room for the technique that MUS employs - and it IS dangerous to use blanket statements like "Please let your children move at their own pace and not some man made standard from one of the worst math nations on the planet, the good old USA."

 

Besides, I don't think any of us are being complacent about our children's education. The very lack of complacency is why we homeschool, isn't it?

[wapiti]

Being that it's just a newsletter, I wouldn't take it too seriously. If I were a user of the author's curriculum, it certainly would not affect my own decision to use it if I were confident in my own judgment on the subject of math and my curriculum choice. However, this is what I got from the article: to those who did express a lack confidence about their situation, it's not a problem to be behind standards, because (1) the student must not be "ready," (2) the standards are not relevant to anything, and (3) it doesn't matter a bit whether the student graduates a few years later than most (and by the way, if you do have concerns, you must be insecure).

 

This is not exactly a ringing endorsement for the author's curriculum. Moreover, unfortunately, it does give me the sense of sweeping problems under the rug and/or having one's head in the sand, ignoring the possibility of LDs, probably the most unwise advice to take from the article. While it's hard to imagine that he truly intended such a message, calling standards wholly irrelevant and blaming a lack of "readiness" come across to me as excuses for not probing further or trying alternative approaches that may better fit a child.

 

I think it would have been more useful for him to say something like: "although our program doesn't look like the state standards, that's because our approach is different, and it is effective, and here's why." In contrast, a message of "relax, people, trust me (and my curriculum), even if it takes a few more years," while it resonates with some - so perhaps he was merely preaching to his choir - it would not resonate with me, personally. Just my two cents.

[Edwena]

I think it would have been more useful for him to say something like: "although our program doesn't look like the state standards, that's because our approach is different, and it is effective, and here's why." In contrast, a message of "relax, people, trust me (and my curriculum), even if it takes a few more years," while it resonates with some - so perhaps he was merely preaching to his choir - it would not resonate with me, personally. Just my two cents.

I guess to me he wasn't even specifically talking about his own curriculum, but maybe I'm naive. I just really feel like he was trying to encourage us moms to slow down and take a breath when jr. isn't getting things right this second. I know I kind of freak if it seems like my dc gets something one day, then not the next or struggles with something. My own dd had a struggle this year with some math. I researched, mixed some things up, played lots of math games, and then voila she finally knew what she was doing. I think Demme is trying to say, relax, plod away, but don't stress, they will get it. It may be 2 months later like my dd, but I was proactive. I'm sure he will advocate the same thing.:)

[Edwena]

The problem Edwena is that there are a number of "home schooling gurus" who advance a "better late than early" philosophy, or a "children can teach themselves with a stack of flashcards and next-to-no parental involvement" curriculums, and this often leads to disastrous results.

 

I had never thought Steve Demme was in this camp, and had thought (without being any expert on the matter) that the MUS program might be especially valuable for children who were struggling with other methods, and felt positively about both Steve Demme and MUS in that regard.

 

The message of this article, however, strikes me as profoundly unhelpful. Worse than unhelpful. If children have problem then "time" does not magically fix those problems. Those who take on the responsibility of education have a duty to act IMO. There was nothing in the article on this vital front.

 

There are some "gurus" (not Demme) who believe the greatest kindness you can do a child is hand them a Saxon math book and refuse to answer their questions, and make them figure it out themselves no matter how long it takes them.

 

This is the kind og thing we deal with in the home education field. Unfortunately.

 

So there is a context for objection when the advice to parents is that struggling student are "where they need to be." Maybe they don't really "need" to be failing. Maybe there are other alternatives.

 

Bill

I can tell Math is really important to you.:) That's great! I hope you don't feel like I've I was attacking you personally as I've read many of you math posts and always enjoy what I read. It's made me reevaluate what I'm doing with my own dc.

 

I believe you are right in your assumption that Demme is not in the camp you describe. He actually advocates the parent teaching the child the lesson until the child can teach the parent the lesson. Basically, he feels when you can teach another person, then you have it down. I'm sure you'd agree.

 

I honestly believe his article was in the extreme because he has talked to so many moms (maybe even dads :)) who have been extreme in their thinking. Maybe that isn't helpful to you as a dad (especially since it's my observation that men just aren't quite as emotional as us women :)), but it was helpful to me (even though I'm not currently freaking :lol:) and seems like others. They understand where he was coming from. I understand you might not understand where he's coming from and that's fine as we're all in different stages of this homeschooling life.:)

[jennynd]

The problem Edwena is that there are a number of "home schooling gurus" who advance a "better late than early" philosophy, or a "children can teach themselves with a stack of flashcards and next-to-no parental involvement" curriculums, and this often leads to disastrous results.

 

I had never thought Steve Demme was in this camp, and had thought (without being any expert on the matter) that the MUS program might be especially valuable for children who were struggling with other methods, and felt positively about both Steve Demme and MUS in that regard.

 

The message of this article, however, strikes me as profoundly unhelpful. Worse than unhelpful. If children have problem then "time" does not magically fix those problems. Those who take on the responsibility of education have a duty to act IMO. There was nothing in the article on this vital front.

 

There are some "gurus" (not Demme) who believe the greatest kindness you can do a child is hand them a Saxon math book and refuse to answer their questions, and make them figure it out themselves no matter how long it takes them.

 

This is the kind og thing we deal with in the home education field. Unfortunately.

 

So there is a context for objection when the advice to parents is that struggling student are "where they need to be." Maybe they don't really "need" to be failing. Maybe there are other alternatives.

 

Bill

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

There are those kid do have LD or math just not click, and there are those kids who are behind for other reasons, This article tells me, oh,, just let let them be and don't worry what is wrong,

Edited April 22, 2011 by jennynd

[Spy Car]

Late to the party and I've only read the first couple of pages,so maybe this has been discussed, but... perhaps we're misunderstanding him. When I read the article the impression I got was not "Just slack off, because math doesn't matter." It was more along the lines of, "Some kids learn math at a slower pace than others and might be considered "behind" by some. Some kids even need to go back and re-learn early topics. It's okay. Just relax. Keep making slow and steady progress and in the end it won't matter if it took your child a couple of extra years to master what he or she needs to know."

 

If that's what was said there would be no discussion, but that isn't what is actually said in the article.

 

Bill

[Greta]

I think you need to give homeschooling moms a little more credit. We're not a bunch of literal-minded Amelia Bedelia types.

 

I'm married to someone who makes these kinds of over-the-top statements, so not for one second did I take Mr. Demme literally. I don't think anyone else with more than a couple brain cells would either.

 

:lol: I guess you'll have to put me in the 'less than a couple of brain cells' camp, then, because I truly did not know how to take this article at all. I don't get his humor or his style, and no doubt that's part of it. But some of what he said is genuinely confusing and contradictory.

 

He says that the Bible gives us no standards for the pace of teaching math (well, no kidding) but then he also rejects "man made" standards. So what are we left with?

 

He says not to worry about keeping up with US standards because it's one of "the worst math nations on the planet". Then doesn't that mean we should be very concerned about being *ahead* of US standards? What help is it to be told to :chillpill: if our child is behind these standards which he admits are actually sub-standard?

 

And this sentence:

There’s never enough time to do it right the first time, but there is always enough time to go back and do it again.

 

What does that even mean???

 

He may be a brilliant math teacher, I don't know. But his writing skills are lacking, in my opinion. As someone who is not worried or freaked out, but *always* concerned and vigilant about my daughter's progress in math, I got nothing at all from this article.

 

But my own experiences no doubt color my reactions. I live in a place where unschooling is very popular, and where relaxed homeschooling is the norm, and rigorous homeschooling is the exception. Time after time after time I've overheard homeschoolers advising concerned mothers that they don't need to do anything, the child will magically learn to read when he is ready, and that you can't possibly do worse than the public schools, and that homeschooling is easy and only takes an hour a day (well into upper grades), so on and so forth. I'm practically drowning in all the "don't worry, be happy" advice, so it isn't something I need more of. I need concrete, constructive HELP, how-to guides, plans of action, and yes, the ever-dreaded *standards*.

But I fully recognize that others have had experiences very different from my own. I don't think worry is constructive (concern yes, but worry no), so if he is helping overly worried parents relax, then that's great. Maybe you have to be in that place of worry to "get" this article? I don't know. But I just had to say that Bill is not the only one who had a negative reaction to it.

Edited April 22, 2011 by GretaLynne

[DianeW88]

I think the article is wrong-headed. It's not necessary to "worry" if your child is behind, but it is necessary to take pro-active steps to determine what is going on, why the child is not grasping the material, and what you, the teacher, can do to help him or her.

 

I think there are indeed milestones a child should be hitting, and it is the homeschool parent's job to help the child meet those milestones.

 

:iagree: After having had to work my tail off to make up a year of education for my oldest ds (now 20), I am much more vigilant and rigorous in the education of my younger ones. He was "behind" and we let it slide, naively thinking, "Oh, he'll catch up." And, "Oh, we have plenty of time." Wrong. The years will go by before you know it and the chance that you'll have a high schooler doing elementary level math is very real. Barring any type of LD (which is an entirely different situation), this shouldn't happen, and yet it does. I've seen it in multiple families over the past seventeen years that we've homeschooled.

 

Yes....you SHOULD be concerned if your child is behind in math. You shouldn't be paralyzed with anxiety, but you should definitely be doing something productive to correct it and get him/her up to grade level. There will be consequences if your child wants to pursue a career that requires a certain level of math knowledge and proficiency and you, as your child's teacher, haven't provided it.

[Blessed with seven]

AWESOME ARTICLE...THANK YOU FOR SHARING!!!

 

I don't use MUS but this article is great!!!

[Lovedtodeath]

There’s never enough time to do it right the first time, but there is always enough time to go back and do it again.

I think he was commenting about how this is usually what happens. He advocates, on the other hand, taking the time to get it right the first time. Like I said, this type of advice does not do me any good. I am too much of a perfectionist and will hold my kids back forever trying to "get it right the first time".

[kalanamak]

I didn't read the article.

 

.

 

You didn't miss anything.

 

He is in dire need of a copy of The Elements of Style.

Edited April 22, 2011 by kalanamak
two posts merged into one, neat!

[shinyhappypeople]

If that's what was said there would be no discussion, but that isn't what is actually said in the article.

 

Bill

 

I read the same article.

 

I think you're taking him too literally. I make obvious exaggerations in my writing if I think it will help me to make my point. I mean, seriously, ALL THE TIME, I exaggerate (<--- see, just did it again ;) )

 

I went into the article with the understanding that since he's a math teacher he values math and cares about students mastering the subject. Interpreting the article through that lens is what led me to draw the conclusions that I did.

[Spy Car]

I can tell Math is really important to you.:) That's great! I hope you don't feel like I've I was attacking you personally as I've read many of you math posts and always enjoy what I read. It's made me reevaluate what I'm doing with my own dc.

 

Welcome to the forum, I really appreciate the spirit of this and your previous post. Thank you for the kind words.

 

I didn't feel attacked (by you :tongue_smilie:). I just wanted to be clear why this sort of article is something that I feel deserves "push-back". There is a fairly strong contingent with-in the homeschooling movement that advocates educational methods I think are detrimental to children including delayed academics, belief that children will grow into mathematical thinking simply as a function of aging/maturing, and/or that children can (should) learn with little or no parental involvement.

 

 

I believe you are right in your assumption that Demme is not in the camp you describe. He actually advocates the parent teaching the child the lesson until the child can teach the parent the lesson. Basically, he feels when you can teach another person, then you have it down. I'm sure you'd agree.

 

I hope he is not. Until now I have alway assumed that was the not the case. I (obviously) disagree with the way he stated his position in this particular article, but I'm sure we could come to agreement on many points if they were expressed differently. At least I hope so.

 

As I've said, while I'm not of the opinion that MUS would have been a good fit for my particular child, at one time it was on the short-list of math programs I considered using, and might very well have been my choice if I had a kid I felt needed this type of approach. I am not down on MUS (not that I'm suggesting you think I am :001_smile:)

 

I honestly believe his article was in the extreme because he has talked to so many moms (maybe even dads :)) who have been extreme in their thinking. Maybe that isn't helpful to you as a dad (especially since it's my observation that men just aren't quite as emotional as us women :)), but it was helpful to me (even though I'm not currently freaking :lol:) and seems like others. They understand where he was coming from. I understand you might not understand where he's coming from and that's fine as we're all in different stages of this homeschooling life.:)

 

I understand trying to reassure and buoy the spirits of parents (mostly mothers) who are feeling overwhelmed, stressed, worried, or otherwise have bad feeling about how their children struggling with math. I don't want parents to "worry" needlessly either, fretting doesn't get one anywhere.

 

This article, unfortunately, doesn't just tell parents not to be subsumed with worry, it tells tells them that their worry is the result of them being "insecure". This, IMO, is not helpful on any level.

 

I would have applauded an article that said don't worry, but do act. I am not a fatalist. But I also think we need to accept and love our children for who they are. I am sure Steve Demme feels the same way.

 

Bill

[stripe]

He says that the Bible gives us no standards for the pace of teaching math (well, no kidding) but then he also rejects "man made" standards. So what are we left with?

.

He says these two things:

1) This is not to say children can’t being formal schooling at 5 or enter college at 17, but please trust your instincts and teach and train your children according to what you know about their abilities and readiness.

 

2) Please let your children move at their own pace and not some man made standard from one of the worst math nations on the planet, the good old USA.

 

My question is, is it legitimate to use standards from one of the best math nations (not really sure what the term "math nation" is, but...) on the planet? Such as Japan, China, Finland, or Singapore? Or do we throw out all standards and we should just "trust our instincts"?

[jentancalann]

If a child is well educated by the time they graduate, does it really matter which particular year they learned fractions? Really? I really could not care less what public schooled kids are learning or the timeframe in which they are learning it. Math U See advocates mastering topics before moving on. Period. Yes, it takes a different route than traditional programs, but they all end up in roughly the same place (taking into consideration the students strenghs and weaknesses) Mr. Demme is NOT saying "It's ok, slack off, they'll be fine". I think that people who have never heard his voice, picked up on his personality, or seriously looked at his program haven't a clue where he is coming from, which is unfortunate. He may not be a good writer, but he does good math.