My first exposure to Everyday Math

[....]

I'm easy-going and I really try not to be judgmental about other people's educational methods. Whatever, Dude! Enjoy! The sky's the limit! However...:glare:

 

They use Everyday Math here and I watched our neighbor's daughter work a multiplication problem using this "lattice method". Not only did it take this kid 5 minutes to work the problem, but there were numbers everywhere! And, her answer was dead-wrong! It wasn't even in the ballpark. I've taken calculus in college and I couldn't even figure out what this kid was doing with all the numbers.

 

I asked her a couple of questions about it and asked her how to do division. She couldn't tell me.

 

I don't "get it". Where the heck did this new way of math come from? Why are they teaching this to these kids? Why do I feel like the only one who objects to this (the other parents here don't seem to mind it)? I'm irritated that our tax dollars go to this and I felt really bad for the girl. I feel guilty even being irritated by it.

 

Has anyone else actually seen this in real life? How would you help them with their homework?

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

My aunt was trying to help my cousin's kids with the same type of problems. She called me for advice. I told her to teach the kids to do it the good old-fashioned way, and let the school worry about the lattice method. If they know how to actually multiply and can come up with the correct answers on standardized tests, I don't see the importance of suffering through the lattice method. It's so much more work with much more room for error. They also have to do the method where they write out the problems with all the place value markers:

 

256

x 17

______

42

350

1400

60

500

+ 2000

________

4352

 

ETA: It didn't line up correctly when I posted it.

[FO4UR]

They use EM here. I stay far far away....I see the homework workbooks out on the kitchen table and take a mental note to NOT discuss math.;)

 

I did tutor a girl in our former state (not sure if it was EM or TERC), and she was 3rd grade, no LD's, and did not know basic + facts at ALL. :glare: Now, I'm not one for drill and kill...but by 3rd grade!!!! Her mother complained that the grandmother had tried to help her (multi-digit +-), but taught her the traditional algorithms and it wasn't allowed at school.:glare: I spent most of my time with that girl working with 3+4=7 and such...

 

Yeah...my dc will be reading phonetically, copying, narrating, and +-x/ with the traditional algorithms before stepping foot into a ps - ever! (funny how my list of "my child must be able to this first" keeps growing!!!)

[....]

I feel like an idiot. I just can't grasp where all those numbers are coming from? :confused::confused::confused:

 

The little girl was doing some place value stuff - that was the ONLY thing I figured out when I saw her work. Like I said, her answer wasn't even in the ballpark.

[....]

They use it here. It's the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen.

 

Why aren't the parents outside the school with torches and pitchforks?

 

Do the kids end up having problems later down the road?

[HollyBee]

Everyday Math was a major reason I pulled my kids out of ps. They were in a private school that used Saxon until we moved halfway through dd's 3rd grade year. We started ps right after that move (no private schools I liked nearby). After a year of EM, dd went from being fine (and actually advanced) in math to feeling like "I'm stupid in math!"

 

My dh, who has an electrical engineering degree, could not figure out how to help her with her homework. We knew we had to do something at that point.

 

She's STILL behind in math from that year that she lost while being in ps.

 

Oh, and the parents succeeded in having the school board throw EM out effective this school year (2010-2011). That should tell you something. But we're still staying home! :tongue_smilie:

[kewb]

Not that I want to defend everyday math because I really dislike that program, but the lattice method is actually a fairly old method of doing multiplication. My oldest finds it easier to do the lattice then the traditional way I was taught. He explained it to me once and it did make sense. I still can't do it and my dd ditched that method years ago but he loves it and always gets the right answer.

[HollyBee]

Why aren't the parents outside the school with torches and pitchforks?

 

Do the kids end up having problems later down the road?

 

The parents did that here, and got the school board to throw it out (see my post above).

 

And yes, the kids do end up having problems. They were getting into middle and high school and were totally unprepared for higher math.

[Mrs Mungo]

Not that I want to defend everyday math because I really dislike that program, but the lattice method is actually a fairly old method of doing multiplication. My oldest finds it easier to do the lattice then the traditional way I was taught. He explained it to me once and it did make sense. I still can't do it and my dd ditched that method years ago but he loves it and always gets the right answer.

 

Well, and Math-U-See is sort of a combination of the lattice method and what is considered the traditional method. It works well for some kids. I can see why the traditional method works well for some kids. Ultimately, that's the REAL problem with public schools-one size has to fit all.

[....]

Not that I want to defend everyday math because I really dislike that program, but the lattice method is actually a fairly old method of doing multiplication.

 

I had no idea that it's been around for a while. It was completely new to me. I'm also guessing there's a big difference between MUS and EM.

[Chris in VA]

I remember my son doing lattice multiplication in about 3rd grade. I think the idea was to be able to see what was really being done in a clear way--not that it was so clear to me, but he understood it. Then he was given the traditional algorithm, so it was really just a little while using the lattice method.

I've seen that over and over--illustrate the concept, then show the "short cut." The traditional algorithm is seen as the short cut.

I don't have a huge problem with that, except I'm not sure it's as necessary for as long as the class did it.

They did something similar with division, but I've forgotten what it was, exactly.

[Mejane]

Don't get me started. :glare:

 

They used this method when my dd was in ps. They weren't even teaching the traditional way, so I taught her at home. I knew the lattice method was not something she would use later. I mean, really - can't you just see all those MIT engineering and physics students sitting around drawing little lattices? Riiiight.

[....]

Don't get me started. :glare:

 

They used this method when my dd was in ps. They weren't even teaching the traditional way, so I taught her at home. I knew the lattice method was not something she would use later. I mean, really - can't you just see all those MIT engineering and physics students sitting around drawing little lattices? Riiiight.

 

Yeah, my 9 yro also did the same problem using the old-fashioned way and came up with the answer very quickly. The neighbor's girl looked at the way my daughter did it and couldn't figure out how she got the answer. It doesn't sound like they are teaching the old way at all.

[RoughCollie]

Everyday Math was a major reason I pulled my kids out of ps.

 

That curriculum was one of the main reasons we took DD out of PS after 3rd grade.

[zusjames]

I think that most ps parents don't know how to even help their child-- especially with math. Or that they can complain about something like a teaching method. After all, professionals have developed new curriculum to help kids, right?

 

PLUS.... if the parent cannot co-teach the same idea at home isn't that causing dependence on the ps?

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

At the beginning of last year, when I met with ds1's 1st grade teacher, I asked how they supplemented the EM curriculum, because the previous year, the principal told me that they recognized EM was deficient in getting kids to learn their math facts and that the school was combatting that by supplementing. The teacher said the only supplementation was to send flashcards home to be done by the parents. She said (off the record) that the teachers were also dissatisfied with EM and were keeping a written record of how it just did not work for them. Then, mid-year, we got a letter from the school board saying they were reviewing math curricula to "potentially" change their current program. Since I pulled the kids out over the summer, I don't know how it played out. I should ask my neighbors.

[Mejane]

Just want to add something I said once on the curriculum board. When our ps district implemented EM, the local Sylvan center had so many kids who needed math tutoring that they had a waiting list. Unprecedented. I think that says something.

[bzymom]

I cannot stand EM. They started using it when my 3rd was in ps, and it was a nightmare. For the most part, he understood it, but if there was a problem, none of us (d/h, his older siblings and I) could help. I finally insisted he learn traditional methods as well, but he was upset because the class had been told they were NOT to allow their parents to teach them. I let the teacher know we were doing it anyway, and he was not to get any flack for it, and I taught my younger d/d as well.

 

My d/d is now in 7th in PS. They are phasing out EM, and most of the teachers I've spoken to call it a "failed experiment". I know kids who are struggling terribly as a result of EM, and teachers who despise it but have no choice but to continue teaching it. I do understand keeping it in the arsenal for students who may not respond to traditional math.

 

PS is great for fixing things that aren't broken.

[Snickerdoodle]

 

but he was upset because the class had been told they were NOT to allow their parents to teach them.

This would *really* bug me. Did they really say this? (Not that I'm doubting you. It just seems surreal.)

[Perry]

Fuzzy Math is why we started homeschooling. When my dd was in first grade, I started a local group in an attempt to raise awareness and to get the curriculum changed. Many parents were very unhappy with the curriculum, but very few were willing to complain.

 

It was extremely frustrating.

 

We eventually did get the curriculum changed. Unfortunately, it was changed from TERC, which was horrible, to EM, which is only marginally better.

 

The history of the Math Wars is actually very interesting, and there is a ton of information out there about it. It boils down to the fact that education is about ideology, not evidence.

 

Here are some good articles

 

How Not to Teach Math

NCTM

Letter to Secretary of Education

 

and websites

 

Mathematically Correct

NYC HOLD

[Mejane]

This would *really* bug me. Did they really say this? (Not that I'm doubting you. It just seems surreal.)

 

Oh, it's real all right. My dd cried when I told her I was going to teach her "real" math because she was afraid she would get in trouble. I told her to have them call me if they had a problem with it. They didn't, so I guess they're not complete idiots. ;)

[Melinda in VT]

Why aren't the parents outside the school with torches and pitchforks?

 

Do the kids end up having problems later down the road?

 

Around here, it's because it seems to be working. The elementary students do very well on the standardized tests and seem to transition to the middle school and high school math programs successfully.

 

Our school does teach the standard algorithms eventually AND does a lot of math fact drill.

[bzymom]

This would *really* bug me. Did they really say this? (Not that I'm doubting you. It just seems surreal.)

 

Absolutely. Other kids were having the same breakdowns because they didn't want to get in trouble with their teachers. My son's teacher told me they didn't want to confuse the kids. I almost laughed out loud! When d/d was starting the program, she was given the same instructions.

 

This is probably about the time our school files were marked with giant red flags!

[....]

Around here, it's because it seems to be working. The elementary students do very well on the standardized tests and seem to transition to the middle school and high school math programs successfully.

 

Our school does teach the standard algorithms eventually AND does a lot of math fact drill.

 

Maybe your schools are doing something different than our school. Like I said, this girl couldn't explain what "division" was. From doing Singapore for so long, it really threw me off guard and then watching her with the numbers all over the place.

[....]

After all, professionals have developed new curriculum to help kids, right?

 

 

I'm guessing that's why the parents I've talked to don't seem very concerned about it.

 

 

 

Anyway, :seeya:. Nice to see you again! :D

[Linda1951]

That reminds me of the "new Math" they had back in the early 80's. MY sister and her DH had to take a class at the school to learn how to do it and help their child, the parents complained all year and the kids could not learn it and the school finally got rid of it.

[PiCO]

They use Everyday Math here...

 

They use EM here also. I have a friend who's a middle school principal- she HATES it. She said EM is why our school district is behind the school district to the south- 75% of the kids coming in have to do a year of remedial math to learn what they didn't in K-5.

 

The other 25%? They went to private school, charter school, moved to the area, or their parents worked math with them at home.

[Melinda in VT]

Maybe your schools are doing something different than our school. Like I said, this girl couldn't explain what "division" was. From doing Singapore for so long, it really threw me off guard and then watching her with the numbers all over the place.

 

I can definitely relate to the numbers are all over the place part. With my oldest, DH and I were :001_huh:.

 

What grade was the girl in? Everyday Math does multiplication first, and then division. Is it possible she just hasn't gotten there yet?

 

My oldest (now in high school) is a math geek :D, so he's not a good test case, but his classmates seem to do fine in math at the high school level too, even with EM as their foundation.

[....]

What grade was the girl in? Everyday Math does multiplication first, and then division. Is it possible she just hasn't gotten there yet?

 

 

I think she's in 4th. We talked about what they were doing in math and she was telling me that they're "starting algebra".

 

They really need to make sure they have a good foundation. There's no race to algebra, especially when you can't describe what division is...

[WistfulRidge]

One thing I really dislike is that since many teachers are weak in math themselves they often cannot think outside the box. They teach the method and reject any other method (even if it yields the same result). That was the attitude I was given growing up. I remember freaking out when I asked my dad for math help because he wasn't doing it the way the school showed me to do it. But that is because schools insist on their way and their way only. There is more than one way to get the same answer. I'm not against other ways, but often times schools insist on the one dumb way.

 

I almost flunked fourth grade math because of that mentality. We moved cross country (PNW to the South) between my third and fourth grade years. The public school I attended in OR taught more traditional type methods, the one in NC - not so much. In one case in particular I got every question on the test right but the teacher gave me a 0 because I used the more traditional method to get the answer (because that is what made sense to me) versus the method she had taught. :001_huh:

[PiCO]

I finally insisted he learn traditional methods as well, but he was upset because the class had been told they were NOT to allow their parents to teach them. I let the teacher know we were doing it anyway, and he was not to get any flack for it, and I taught my younger d/d as well.

 

In my school district, they actually have classes for parents so they can learn the curriculum. At least they are trying to involve the parents and not telling kids their parents aren't allowed to help.

[Jenstet]

My niece, who lived with us for 5 years, used EM in PS. By 3rd grade she was struggling. They offered a parents course every year so that the parents would know how to help with the homework. It was very strange. I do think it depends on how the school teaches is but our system required that the kids used lattice and would not be introducing them to traditional algorithms. She never became proficient at it so I taught her the traditional algorithm. Her answers were maked wrong everytime she used standard algorithms. They didn't allow it. I also remember one time when she came home with a 60% on her math test. I was upset and called to teacher to see what we could do to get her back on track. The teacher told me she received one of the highest grades in class. That 60% was great and not to worry about it. We pulled her out soon after that.

 

We use MUS now and I don't understand how the lattice method is anything like using MUS as a poster sugested. MUS does use expanded notation to show place value but moves on to traditional algorithms.

[PiCO]

I remember my son doing lattice multiplication in about 3rd grade. I think the idea was to be able to see what was really being done in a clear way--not that it was so clear to me, but he understood it.

 

My younger dd's math book had "expoloration" sections. They used these to explore other methods of getting to the same answer. They went over the lattice method in one of these sections, but taught multiplication in the traditional manner otherwise. I liked that approach.

[EKS]

What I find so funny about these programs that teach the lattice method over the traditional multiplication algorithm is that the programs themselves are always proclaiming that they are teaching for "understanding" and the traditional algorithm is "just" a procedure. To me, the traditional algorithm is actually an elegant demonstration of the interplay between place value and multiplication (if that makes sense). The lattice method, on the other hand, makes it, and is in fact *trying* to make it, easy for the person using it to forget entirely about place value and just crank it out. It epitomizes everything programs like Everyday Math and TERC Investigations say they are against.

 

I would have asked the child to explain how the method worked. If she was able to give an explanation grounded in an understanding of place value, that would impress me. My guess is that most students could not.

[wapiti]

FWIW, I think Khan has a video lesson on the lattice method, though I've never had the stomach to view it.

 

Our local PS uses EM, but unfortunately so does the one private school I've considered sending dd to - I love their curriculum for everything but math. No way will I send her there until after 5th grade, at which point they use more traditional math texts (thanks for reminding me - we had another one of those "conversations", ahem, this morning that involved me dialing that school's phone number until dd shrieked "stooopppp!").

 

What I can't get over is the sales job that has been done on these schools. Sure, the PS is easy to fall prey, but this one private school that uses it is very good in all other respects (though last time I chatted with them, they mentioned that they supplement EM with something else).

[Mrs Mungo]

We use MUS now and I don't understand how the lattice method is anything like using MUS as a poster sugested.

 

When you start our multiplying in MUS it is very similar to a lattice method. Then you use a sort of bridge between the two, then you move on to traditional algorithms. I'm not dissing it, I *use* it! :D

 

MUS does use expanded notation to show place value but moves on to traditional algorithms.

 

I agree. But, EM is supposed to move on to traditional algorithms as well, right (I have not used it, but that is my understanding)? If the schools are not moving quickly enough and/or not finishing the program I can see how that would create a *serious* problem.

[ktgrok]

Oh my goodness...that is the worst way to teach multiplication I have ever seen. It's not logical. It goes right to left, which is not natural. It has numbers all over the place, and multiple steps that could be messed up. and it certainly isn't faster. WTF???? I just looked and yup, my son's math from last year was Everyday Math. No wonder he was so confused!

 

http://www.coolmath4kids.com/times-tables/times-tables-lesson-lattice-multiplication-3.html

[FlockOfSillies]

My sister lives in a highly coveted school district, but they use Everyday Math. We had a conversation once about curricula, when my nephew was just starting school there. I made some comment about all the horror stories I'd heard about EM, and she went on and on about how well they teach the curriculum, yadda yadda. Well, guess who still calls me on the phone asking for help explaining her kids' homework? The math isn't even hard, it's just cloaked in mystery.

[FlockOfSillies]

I wonder, are there a lot of tutoring centers in your neck of the woods? I'd bet dollars to doughnuts there's a high correlation between EM school districts and prevalence of tutoring centers. Parents can't help with the homework, they find a tutor, kid starts to understand math, does well on standardized tests, and the school (with its "fabulous" curriculum) gets all the credit.

[Lara in Colo]

I have recently become a fan of Khan academy and they have a very good explanation of the latice method. For my daughter, who has a very hard time remebering to "bring down" in the traditional way, latice is very nice for her.

 

http://www.khanacademy.org/video/lattice-multiplication?playlist=Arithmetic

 

As a side note, I looked at Khan academy a few months ago and wasn't impressed. They have gotten support form Bill Gates and the website is really nice and teacher friendly. I can see the progress each of my children are making in each subject, and they like doing the work as a supplement to our MM. It also gives me some time to work 1:1 with a child and still have some math going on.

 

Lara

[msjones]

I used to tutor math in a school that used EM. When it is taught well by a well-trained teacher and supplemented with easy-to-find facts drill, many students do very well with EM (they have since moved on to TERC -- another parent 'favorite'). I often worked with my students in the classroom during the day's math instruction.

 

The kids who were doing well with EM were doing very well. They had a far more thorough understanding of the 'whys' behind the algorithms than any other students I had encountered. I saw some truly impressive teaching of EM.

 

I also saw some terrible teaching. And my students (the ones who qualified for tutoring services) were struggling miserably. They approached basic math with desperate inefficiency -- using grids of dots to figure multiplication facts, for example. (!!!)

 

When I had the students outside of their classrooms, I often taught them using RightStart or Singapore methods. We had lots of success!

 

I use many of the EM methods to supplement Singapore (my favorite is the long-division method), which I use at home with my boys.

 

However, a poorly trained teacher is likely to do a very poor job using the curriculum. And most districts don't have the money to provide thorough training.

[Melinda in VT]

I wonder, are there a lot of tutoring centers in your neck of the woods? I'd bet dollars to doughnuts there's a high correlation between EM school districts and prevalence of tutoring centers. Parents can't help with the homework, they find a tutor, kid starts to understand math, does well on standardized tests, and the school (with its "fabulous" curriculum) gets all the credit.

 

No. Not a lot of anything in my neck of the woods, actually. I'm not aware of anyone getting outside math tutoring, although it's not impossible that some of the kids are.

 

EM has parent letters that our school sends home at the beginning of each chapter, explaining the concepts, defining terms, and providing the answers for some homework assignments. My kids rarely ask for help, but I have consulted the letter once or twice.

[Jenstet]

When you start our multiplying in MUS it is very similar to a lattice method. Then you use a sort of bridge between the two, then you move on to traditional algorithms. I'm not dissing it, I *use* it! :D

 

 

 

I agree. But, EM is supposed to move on to traditional algorithms as well, right (I have not used it, but that is my understanding)? If the schools are not moving quickly enough and/or not finishing the program I can see how that would create a *serious* problem.

 

I didn't think you were dissing it:) I look at expanded notation or using the blocks as helpful in explaining the whys. Then we move on to the standard algorithms. I found with our PS they never moved on from the whys. Exactly your point. It was a disaster. I have to add that I did take her out after 3rd so maybe she missed some crucial step but I doubt it.

Someone posted this video awhile back and it stuck with me. We do this sort of calculating with MUS and the blocks (as you know) but like you said we move on. To require a kid to do this over and over for every problem is just lunacy.

 

This is TERC not EM but all the same kind of CRAZY!!..as far as I'm concerned.

[vonfirmath]

Not that I want to defend everyday math because I really dislike that program, but the lattice method is actually a fairly old method of doing multiplication. My oldest finds it easier to do the lattice then the traditional way I was taught. He explained it to me once and it did make sense. I still can't do it and my dd ditched that method years ago but he loves it and always gets the right answer.

 

I'm not 100% I understand what the lattice method is. What I heard Everyday Math explained as is teaching children to use the FOIL method (first, outside, inside, last) so when they get to algebra it is not such a shock

 

So 55 x 45 would be (50+5)(40+5)=2000+240+200+25

 

And if you have more digits, then it becomes a more complex problem So

 

255x45=(200+55)(40+5)=8000+1000+(55x40)+(55x5)

=8000+1000+(50+5)(40)+(50+5)(5)

=8000+1000+2000+200+250+25

 

and etc

[nevergiveup]

I don't know anything about Everyday Math, but I like the lattice method. I found it on my own when researching different ways to help my dyslexic son in math. He had a hard time the traditional way, lining up the numbers, switching back and forth between multiplying and adding, carrying numbers to the next column. For the lattice method, one completes all the multiplication first, then completes all the adding. I thought it was really slick and can be done just as quickly as regular multiplying.

[Spellbound]

I was reading a book on how math works and found what they called Gelosia multiplication, used in India since the 12th century. Looks like lattice multiplication to me. My DS learned it his last year of PS. I like that it lines all of his numbers up for him and he is quite proficient. Unfortunately, he has Asperger's so now that he is proficient, he refuses to learn anything else!:lol: At some point, it'll have to be changed. Oh well!

[creekland]

EM is not a winner around here. When I pulled my youngest out (after 4th grade) I found out he didn't KNOW any math (facts) and had to spend 2 years catching him up to grade level. Had he stayed in school he would have been in the "no hope" class for math. Granted, he knew what pentagons and trapezoids were, but he couldn't do 5 x 6 or any division.

 

Since we pulled him out and really taught him how to do math (and why, etc) he tested up in the 85th percentile on his math standardized testing last year (8th grade) and is one of the few students in ps in 9th grade that can do math without a calculator. His peers turn to him for math help. He likes that. He has a 91 average right now in Geometry and he's NOT a math talented kid.

 

As a regular in math/science classes in our high school we've been told to expect great things from his year (the first year to start EM). Both middle school and high school teachers have yet to see these great things. Instead, I find kids who need to use their calculator to multiply 2 x 4 and 3 x 100. Forget anything with fractions. Kids will simply skip those if they can't use their calculator and often get them wrong anyway if they can use it since they forget parentheses around division.

 

By geometry pretty much all have also forgotten what a trapezoid is.

 

I believe at this point our elementary teachers are ready to ditch the program.

[Matryoshka]

She didn't see the big deal with EM because after all she grew up with Chicago math. As far as I know Chicago math is not like EM.

 

Au contraire. Everyday Math is also known as Chicago Math because it was developed by the University of Chicago. If you google "Chicago Math", the first hit is the Everyday Math site, whose web address is http://everydaymath.uchicago.edu/

 

However, what she grew up with, even if also developed in Chicago, is most likely completely different from Everyday Math.

[Sun]

My aunt was trying to help my cousin's kids with the same type of problems. She called me for advice. I told her to teach the kids to do it the good old-fashioned way, and let the school worry about the lattice method. If they know how to actually multiply and can come up with the correct answers on standardized tests, I don't see the importance of suffering through the lattice method. It's so much more work with much more room for error. They also have to do the method where they write out the problems with all the place value markers:

 

256

x 17

______

42

350

1400

60

500

+ 2000

________

4352

 

ETA: It didn't line up correctly when I posted it.

 

I actually like teaching kids the method shown above before moving on to the standard algorithm. I want them to really understand what's happening, and I think learning partial-products (what the above method is called) is helpful with that.

 

I wouldn't mind EM's lattice method so much if it were just taught to kids as another way to do multiplication alongside plenty of emphasis on the traditional model, and then kids were allowed to use whichever method they liked best. Instead, EM has kids required to use the lattice method over and over again for a few years, thereby just about guaranteeing that kids will pretty much only be able to use that (much lengthier) method.

 

I've also heard (though haven't confirmed by looking at the EM curriculum for 6th grade) that EM doesn't ever teach long division in elementary school. It does apparently use some method of repeated subtraction which is much more lengthy.

[blakereese]

In my school district, they actually have classes for parents so they can learn the curriculum. At least they are trying to involve the parents and not telling kids their parents aren't allowed to help.

 

To me, it is crazy that they have to have a class for the parents. I mean, math should be math! But some previous posters are right, the children are told to only to it the EM way, and it is not any way I have ever learned. I knew there was a problem when I couldn't figure out my son's FIRST GRADE math. :confused::glare:

 

And in our district the children are doing poorly on the state math tests, and our elementary is in Improvement Year 1. I really think the first step should be changing the curriculum, but they are bringing in more people to explain how to get the answers to ELEMENTARY SCHOOL math, "their way". :banghead: And how much is this costing, I wonder??