Spin off: Literacy.......I was told this week that local schools do not expect, teach

[Joanne]

or require documentation of cited information. Only some students were familiar with a bibliography or works cited. None were familiar with any form of citation that corresponded with content.

 

I teach high school (English, History, Communications, Study Skills).

 

I assigned a research paper to one of my history classes. I have 10th, 11th and 12th graders. Our school is a mixture of part time (homeschooled) students, students who have bounced around private schools, former public schooled kids. 90% or more of my students are AP level and/or very high functioning.

 

Sensing some discomfort with the research assignment, I went over plagiarism, endnotes/footnotes/parenthetical, works cited, etc. And none of my students got it completely right. One student failed, again, due to no documentation whatsover (a former AP student in public school).

 

She claimed that they "didn't have to do this" in any other high school setting and the rest of my students backed up her assertion.

 

This is in a middle class, highly rated school district area.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Joanne

[DawnM]

Well, my teaching experience was all low income, but I also taught high school English. I was lucky to get them to write the paper, let alone revise it or add footnotes!

 

But, I also know our local high school here (in the top 3 of the entire greater Charlotte area) is not what I would consider "up to par" when it comes to writing. I don't know particularly about footnotes, but it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't focus on it, even in AP classes.

 

Dawn

[Sherry in OH]

Do you mean no footnotes or no bibliographic citations at all? Footnotes are rare even in the college environment. Most professors prefer endnotes or parenthetical citations.

[Joanne]

Do you mean no footnotes or no bibliographic citations at all? Footnotes are rare even in the college environment. Most professors prefer endnotes or parenthetical citations.

 

I was using "footnotes" as an umbrella term for specific citations. My high schoolers were not familiar with or expected to use any sourcing corresponding with specific content.

[justamouse]

*jawdrops*

[nrg]

My son has been taught to use MLA style for English papers-no footnotes, notes and references appear in the text, and Chicago Style for History papers-footnotes, old-style, and APA style for psychology, sociology, etc. papers. MLA is the default style if none is indicated. He has some overview sheets to refer to, but usually uses a citation generator online to be sure to get it right. He is a high school senior taking online classes, community college classes, and mom classes. I don;t know what the local high school students are doing.

 

CA state standards introduce MLA style in grade 7. My son says he has been tutoring two seniors through a government paper and they are to use MLA style. He says they need lots of help with this, but are considered top students.

Edited January 14, 2011 by nrg

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

I was using "footnotes" as an umbrella term for specific citations. My high schoolers were not familiar with or expected to use any sourcing corresponding with specific content.

 

My son has entered a national writing competition for Civil Air Patrol.

 

The rules just glibly state to use the Turabian style for this historical research paper. No further instruction on format.

 

Well, nobody in ds's squadron knew what that meant. The National Air Force Museum seems to think the kids know all about research papers, but the kids do not know.

 

The commander of the squadron noticed a literacy problem and had his wife come in and give a few writing lessons, but she couldn't go as far as she wanted. The skills in the group are so uneven! Some have decent grammar and spelling, but others are functionally illiterate. Where to begin?

 

(My son knows how to write a research paper. I taught him the MLA style, but it wasn't a big deal to Google the Turabian style and use that instead for this paper.)

[Hen]

I was in AP English in High School, we did very basic footnotes when needed, but more emphasis was placed on including a bibliography. When I went to college, I learned about MLA and used a style book. My dd15 is now taking a high school Lit and Comp class that is offered by a Private University Program, I was so shocked- and very pleased- that they have to use a style manual and use extensive footnotes. I think my AP class was lacking, in retrospect.

 

(I'm using footnote as a general term, also- I didn't know, or had forgotten, what a parenthetical citation was and had to read the style manual to help my dd- a rude awakening, since I had considered English my best and favorite subject :( -but I am very happy she is learning more than I did!)

Edited January 14, 2011 by Hen Jen
clarification

[angela in ohio]

I was going to say the same thing as Sherry, but I saw your follow-up post. I don't teach footnotes, because I teach MLA, which uses in text citations and a Works Cited page. But not teaching any citations at all is ridiculous. These students will have trouble in college.

 

I asked the local library to do a quick course on research for my little class of half a dozen writing students, and the librarian said they don't get many high school students working on research papers there. She was very happy to teach *someone* how to research. :D

 

I think Chicago is the style with footnotes, right? We've touched on APA, but I haven't taught Chicago at all.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

I prefer the old-fashioned bibliography. I was taught that way in my AP English class.

 

Of course, that was twenty years ago! When I began teaching my son to write research papers, all searches on modern style led to MLA.

[angela in ohio]

(My son knows how to write a research paper. I taught him the MLA style, but it wasn't a big deal to Google the Turabian style and use that instead for this paper.)

 

That's been my approach. I teach MLA, and through that, I teach how to use a style manual or guide. I figure that they can pick up any style once they know one. :001_smile: (Turabian is new to me, though!)

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

For those wondering about Chicago style, I printed out these guides for ds:

 

http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/instruct/guides/chicago-turabianstyle.pdf

 

http://www.libs.uga.edu/ref/turabian2009.pdf

[Jodi-FL]

the year my kids were in public school (first semester in florida, second semester in pennsylvania) they learned to lower their expectations for school work wayyyy down. not only were footnotes not taught/expected, papers were basically just graded for mechanics not content and they were only expected to write a paper every month or two.

 

now they've been home for the past 1.5 years again, it's like pulling teeth for the olders to work hard at. all. and these were honors or ap classes they had been in....

[Joanne]

I prefer the old-fashioned bibliography. I was taught that way in my AP English class.

 

Of course, that was twenty years ago! When I began teaching my son to write research papers, all searches on modern style led to MLA.

 

My point was not clear. My students have not been expected to cite sources to corresponding information (whether it is paraphrased or quoted). Even the idea of a *research paper* was anathema to them. Most of my students did include a bibliography.

 

One creative soul who tried to honor my instructions had:

 

Book "A"

Book "B"

Book "C" in his endnotes.

 

Everytime he used info from book "A", the citation in the endnotes would refer to "A". Everytime he used book "B", he'd send me to "B" endnote. He did credit his sources, and therefore did not steal information, but he had 3 endotes for a paper of many citations. :lol:

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

My point was not clear. My students have not been expected to cite sources to corresponding information (whether it is paraphrased or quoted). Even the idea of a *research paper* was anathema to them. Most of my students did include a bibliography.

 

One creative soul who tried to honor my instructions had:

 

Book "A"

Book "B"

Book "C" in his endnotes.

 

Everytime he used info from book "A", the citation in the endnotes would refer to "A". Everytime he used book "B", he'd send me to "B" endnote. He did credit his sources, and therefore did not steal information, but he had 3 endotes for a paper of many citations. :lol:

 

I'm sorry! I had understood that you were talking about citations, but then people started talking about styles and I followed right along on the tangent. LOL

[Perry]

Good luck. My 10th grader has not yet had to write a research paper. She hasn't written anything longer than two pages since she started high school.

 

Her end of semester group project for 10th grade English was to write and perform a rap song and perform it for the class. :001_rolleyes:

[LibraryLover]

I only know what's going on in our little corner of MA. My ds' high school AP classes all use the MLA formate. Works must be cited, and a certain percentage of sources cannot be internet ones. They actually have to go to the library. His last AP History paper was a solid 10 pages. His last AP lit paper was about 6 pages.

Edited January 14, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Mimm]

Ok, so here's where I admit that I made it through college without ever writing a paper with footnotes. I'm not sure how I did it, and I made good grades, though my major was not writing intensive (Graphic Design). I actually hate citing sources, I find it confusing and annoying and only managed to produce a bibliography by looking up how to cite each source.

[Pretty in Pink]

When I was in high school we learned parenthetical citations and bibliographies. We did not practice footnotes.

 

I am taking a college-level research writing class this semester and I am terriefied of MLA format, which is what we are expected to know and to use. I did purchase the most recent MLA guide. I hope I can figure it out.

 

I really wish we had learned this in high school.

[angela in ohio]

When I was in high school we learned parenthetical citations and bibliographies. We did not practice footnotes.

 

I am taking a college-level research writing class this semester and I am terriefied of MLA format, which is what we are expected to know and to use. I did purchase the most recent MLA guide. I hope I can figure it out.

 

I really wish we had learned this in high school.

 

You'll do well! MLA is just parenthetical citations and a Works Cited page, which is easier than a bibliogaphy. :001_smile: I find the OWL site handy for MLA.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

I only know what's going on in our little corner of MA. My ds' high school AP classes all use the MLA formate. Works must be cited, and a certain percentage of sources cannot be internet ones. They actually have to go to the library. His last AP History paper was a solid 10 pages. His last AP lit paper was about 6 pages.

 

The disparity in this country is mind-boggling.

 

The school district 30 miles from here has top-notch AP classes in all subjects. They even offer four years of Latin.

 

The school district in which I live graduates 19% of boys and has no AP English at all.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

You'll do well! MLA is just parenthetical citations and a Works Cited page, which is easier than a bibliogaphy. :001_smile: I find the OWL site handy for MLA.

 

:iagree: I was going to link the OWL site for you, too. You can do it!

[jujsky]

We had to do a bibliography, but never footnotes. I went to one of the best schools in my state & took AP English.

 

Come to think of it, footnotes were never required in any of my college classes either, and I graduated with a degree in English.

Edited January 14, 2011 by jujsky

[AuntieM]

I learned MLA but I fear that today's prevalent style is GCP.

 

Google, Cut, and Paste.

[Joanne]

Ok, so here's where I admit that I made it through college without ever writing a paper with footnotes. I'm not sure how I did it, and I made good grades, though my major was not writing intensive (Graphic Design). I actually hate citing sources, I find it confusing and annoying and only managed to produce a bibliography by looking up how to cite each source.

 

I've written a hundred or so papers with documentation (Business degree, English degree and now graduate school). I still find the documentation and detail annoying. I still have to look it up. I still make mistakes in APA style. If I ever go Ph.D. (which is likely), I will *hire* someone to handle those details.

 

But I still know that some kind of corresponding note is important so as not to steal someone else's intellectual property, time or research.

 

You'll do well! MLA is just parenthetical citations and a Works Cited page, which is easier than a bibliogaphy. :001_smile: I find the OWL site handy for MLA.

 

I use the OWL site each term in graduate school for APA.

[Joanne]

We had to do a bibliography, but never footnotes. I went to one of the best schools in my state & took AP English.

 

So, how was the content and information in your research paper documented for all of the information that did not come from your brain?

[Renee in NC]

I didn't think anyone did footnotes anymore, except law school students.:tongue_smilie: I think most are MLA or APA style now.

[Renee in NC]

So, how was the content and information in your research paper documented for all of the information that did not come from your brain?

 

MLA or APA (depending on subject) for my 17yo who goes to a very good charter high school in NC.

[Joanne]

MLA or APA (depending on subject) for my 17yo who goes to a very good charter high school in NC.

 

I'm going to have to edit my original post to be more clear. :)

[LibraryLover]

So, how was the content and information in your research paper documented for all of the information that did not come from your brain?

 

MLA format precludes footnotes, but not works cited.

[Renee in NC]

I'm going to have to edit my original post to be more clear. :)

 

Sorry - I didn't see your follow-up before I posted.

[Caroline]

I only know what's going on in our little corner of MA. My ds' high school AP classes all use the MLA formate. Works must be cited, and a certain percentage of sources cannot be internet ones. They actually have to go to the library. His last AP History paper was a solid 10 pages. His last AP lit paper was about 6 pages.

 

This sounds like my kids' schools and my school.

[FaithManor]

Dh is laughing his head off at the "A", "B", "C" thing and dd is hysterical with mirth.

 

I told them that although I have been snickering at the faux paux of great magnitudes that have been contained within the illiteracy threads of great, in reality it is quite alarming! The "GTMO" author and the "ABC endnoter" might someday sit on a "jury of one's peers". This does not inspire much faith in the fair trial system!

 

Wow! Just wow!

 

Faith

[Jami]

Not relevant to the OP really, but Chicago style = Turabian. Kate Turabian wrote the standard guide used by students at the University of Chicago.

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/books/turabian/turabian_citationguide.html

 

Just extra info FWIW. ;)

[angela in ohio]

Not relevant to the OP really, but Chicago style = Turabian. Kate Turabian wrote the standard guide used by students at the University of Chicago.

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/books/turabian/turabian_citationguide.html

 

Just extra info FWIW. ;)

 

Ohhhhhh! I get it now. Thanks! :D You're so smart, Jami.

[LibraryLover]

This sounds like my kids' schools and my school.

 

 

Do you also live in a state where SAT scores have to be insanely high to be a National Merit Scholar? :D

[Caroline]

Do you also live in a state where SAT scores have to be insanely high to be a National Merit Scholar? :D

 

Nope, we are middle of the road--215.

[LibraryLover]

Nope, we are middle of the road--215.

 

That's cool! :)

[LostSurprise]

We were introduced to the concept of the Bibliography in grade school. Used it occasionally through high school. No specific citation, just proof that research assignments include real research. The only time we used actual citation was in a 10 page AP Biology paper and a 5 page AP History paper. AP English was more interested in finding out what we thought, developing that analysis, then what Harold Bloom thought.

 

Because citation is nit-picky and is used to test the veracity of the information (hs is usually about the ability to make a point more then the point itself) it's generally saved for college research projects. We had a freshman course in College Research that went step by step over how to find research and how to cite it in papers (APA, MLA, Chicago). The individual sciences usually have short tutorials on their specific preferences as well.

 

I would not be surprised that a 16 year old had some problems with this the first time. There are people in graduate school who have been doing this for 5-6 years (or more) and they still have problems. The many types of electronic information only increase the complexity. Plus each type is slightly different in format...blah...I did my undergrad in MLA and last year for my grad degree I did papers in both Chicago AND APA...I can't even trust my instincts now I have to look up every tiny detail.

 

Anyway, every teacher in high school who asked for citation spent a lot of time going over citation. It takes practice.

[LibraryLover]

Good post! Thanks!

 

We were introduced to the concept of the Bibliography in grade school. Used it occasionally through high school. No specific citation, just proof that research assignments include real research. The only time we used actual citation was in a 10 page AP Biology paper and a 5 page AP History paper. AP English was more interested in finding out what we thought, developing that analysis, then what Harold Bloom thought.

 

Because citation is nit-picky and is used to test the veracity of the information (hs is usually about the ability to make a point more then the point itself) it's generally saved for college research projects. We had a freshman course in College Research that went step by step over how to find research and how to cite it in papers (APA, MLA, Chicago). The individual sciences usually have short tutorials on their specific preferences as well.

 

I would not be surprised that a 16 year old had some problems with this the first time. There are people in graduate school who have been doing this for 5-6 years (or more) and they still have problems. The many types of electronic information only increase the complexity. Plus each type is slightly different in format...blah...I did my undergrad in MLA and last year for my grad degree I did papers in both Chicago AND APA...I can't even trust my instincts now I have to look up every tiny detail.

 

Anyway, every teacher in high school who asked for citation spent a lot of time going over citation. It takes practice.

[Hannah C.]

:blink::blink::confused:

 

At the public high school I attended, citation of anything found *WAS* required. I had classes with very strict plagiarism warnings. The one which I remember most specifically was AP English. We had to write a 12-15 page research paper on a book. (So, we referenced literary criticism about the book, etc.) We had to provide copies of anything we quoted or paraphrased. We had to use correct MLA citation in the paper and the Works Cited.

 

When I went to college, plagiarism was a Very Very Big Deal, way more so than it was in high school. It is completely and utterly possible to be *KICKED OUT* of college for plagiarizing..and plagiarism can be done by accident, because if you say you are paraphrasing something and what you put is actually word-for-word (in other words, a quote), it is plagiarism.

 

It boggles my mind that high schoolers wouldn't be required to cite everything on papers!!! ESPECIALLY in AP classes!! I can completely understand people having problems with where the periods, commas, etc. go in the citations. But the idea of not citing at all is just..messed up, in my not so humble opinion.

[Joanne]

:blink::blink::confused:

 

At the public high school I attended, citation of anything found *WAS* required. I had classes with very strict plagiarism warnings. The one which I remember most specifically was AP English. We had to write a 12-15 page research paper on a book. (So, we referenced literary criticism about the book, etc.) We had to provide copies of anything we quoted or paraphrased. We had to use correct MLA citation in the paper and the Works Cited.

 

When I went to college, plagiarism was a Very Very Big Deal, way more so than it was in high school. It is completely and utterly possible to be *KICKED OUT* of college for plagiarizing..and plagiarism can be done by accident, because if you say you are paraphrasing something and what you put is actually word-for-word (in other words, a quote), it is plagiarism.

 

It boggles my mind that high schoolers wouldn't be required to cite everything on papers!!! ESPECIALLY in AP classes!! I can completely understand people having problems with where the periods, commas, etc. go in the citations. But the idea of not citing at all is just..messed up, in my not so humble opinion.

 

I tend to agree. Not citing information at all is stealing. Including a Bibliography but not endnotes, footnotes or parentheticals is stealing. I was shocked to learn that it was not expected in the school settings these kids had been in.

[angela in ohio]

But the idea of not citing at all is just..messed up, in my not so humble opinion.

 

I agree. I'm teaching 12-14 yos how to do this, and they are handling it just fine. It's not hard if you show them how. If they don't learn when they first start writing papers, they may come to believe that plagiarism is just fine.

[LibraryLover]

That's what they told you, at least. :D

 

Not saying they are telling an untruth, just that it's easier to say, "Nobody else makes us do this", instead of, "Oops, we forgot how to do this!" Or , "We don't want to do this!"

 

I remember when my youngest ds came home from some 7th grade class all excited about Mesopotamia and Iraq being the same place! I said, " That's cool, huh? But you knew that!" I said it happily, hoping he was going to tell me that his teacher was impressed or something.;) He replied, "No I didn't. We never learned that at home." So uh uh well you know... hadn't actually we done SOTW Ancients twice in his life time. ;) I've said it before, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't keep him from peeing it out."

 

I tend to agree. Not citing information at all is stealing. Including a Bibliography but not endnotes, footnotes or parentheticals is stealing. I was shocked to learn that it was not expected in the school settings these kids had been in.

[Sahamamama]

or require documentation of cited information. Only some students were familiar with a bibliography or works cited. None were familiar with any form of citation that corresponded with content.

 

I teach high school (English, History, Communications, Study Skills).

 

I assigned a research paper to one of my history classes. I have 10th, 11th and 12th graders. Our school is a mixture of part time (homeschooled) students, students who have bounced around private schools, former public schooled kids. 90% or more of my students are AP level and/or very high functioning.

 

Sensing some discomfort with the research assignment, I went over plagiarism, endnotes/footnotes/parenthetical, works cited, etc. And none of my students got it completely right. One student failed, again, due to no documentation whatsover (a former AP student in public school).

 

She claimed that they "didn't have to do this" in any other high school setting and the rest of my students backed up her assertion.

 

This is in a middle class, highly rated school district area.

 

Wow. Just wow. When I was HS (public) we had to write multiple, massive research papers with MLA format, etc., etc. It was "college prep," right?

 

When I got to college, my profs told me, "There is nothing we can teach you about writing a research paper. Would you like to edit my dissertation?" :lol: How the times, they are a-changing.

[FO4UR]

:001_huh:

 

So...what you are telling me is that I can mess up this homeschooling thing pretty wretchedly before I come close to the level of the average ps....or private school. (How do you not rip out your eyeballs trying to teach in this atmosphere?:confused: I'm ticked off for these kids!!! They have been cheated out of an education!!!)

 

 

I graduated in '97 from a decent high school (best in that area) and we learned MLA. College bound seniors, every single on of us, took a hard core semester of just learning to write a college level paper. I went to a small college, and breezed through writing assignments with flying colors. The quality required at the college level was often less than what was required in my high school course (with a few exceptions).

[sleepymommy]

We had to do MLA style in high school and college, including my senior thesis. But the basics about citing your references and started being taught in 6th grade.

 

It's unbelievable to think that some one in high school would not even be familiar with the topic. We were all required to have our MLA guides with us.

 

As a side note, my sister's son is in a school district that has given them access to some sort of a search engine that is tailored for kids so as to weed out the 'bad' stuff. She told me there is a certain button you can push when browsing and the proper citation method pops up on the screen already done for you. She was saying how she wished there was something like that back when we went to school so we didn't have to constantly reference to our MLA guide.

[Joyofsixreboot]

Perhaps our local schools are better than I thought. Citation is needed from about 4th grade up.

[dangermom]

As a side note, my sister's son is in a school district that has given them access to some sort of a search engine that is tailored for kids so as to weed out the 'bad' stuff. She told me there is a certain button you can push when browsing and the proper citation method pops up on the screen already done for you. She was saying how she wished there was something like that back when we went to school so we didn't have to constantly reference to our MLA guide.

Most of the major research databases have that function now--it's pretty handy, but you really should check through it and make sure that it's correct. Quite often there is a little mistake somewhere in there, since computers aren't that bright.

[myfunnybunch]

Yikes.

 

Both of my high school daughters had to provide citation for papers. They started learning in upper elementary. By Freshman English, it was assumed that they were at least familiar with the concept and had a ballpark idea how to do it, and the teacher provided an overview/refresher with lots of examples and guidance.

 

Cat